Log for #openttd on 3rd January 2022:
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02:18:29  <dale> Hi!  I'm running the latest World Airliners Set from the forums, but I strongly suspect the early game Lockheed Constellation has a running cost off by ~10x.  If I want to fix this in a running single player game, what are the chances I can recompile the GRF with my tiny change and just swap the file out behind OpenTTD's back without ruining everything?
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02:32:03  <dale> Ah, bless the developer(s), looks like they used a spreadsheet to figure all the cost values, and they checked the spreadsheet in.  Looks like the Constellation had its cost and running cost factors flipped.
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08:38:53  <andythenorth> yo
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10:54:11  <TrueBrain> right, lets make some noise in this channel
10:54:12  <TrueBrain> not because I want to
10:54:16  <TrueBrain> but because nobody else is :P
10:56:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #106: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
10:56:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] TrueBrain updated pull request #33: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
10:57:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #69: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
10:59:22  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #66: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
10:59:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain updated pull request #64: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:01:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain updated pull request #81: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:05:06  <Eddi|zuHause> späm! :)
11:05:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i might have caught a cold...
11:06:06  <TrueBrain> -the- cold?
11:06:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
11:06:20  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #55: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:06:22  <TrueBrain> good :)
11:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i read, a runny nose isn't a symptom of that one
11:06:39  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain updated pull request #42: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:08:27  <Eddi|zuHause> thing i wonder about the james webb space telescope: we've spent like 30 years planning this 10 year mission. do we have two more of those in the pipeline already?
11:09:40  <TrueBrain> its like with KSP .. you build one, see if it goes where you want it to go
11:09:42  <TrueBrain> build the next
11:09:48  <TrueBrain> and ofc, there is always a delay in building
11:10:00  <TrueBrain> you tell your friends in the multiplayer session: just 20 more minutes to build this rocket
11:10:02  <TrueBrain> and it never is 20
11:10:16  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain updated pull request #61: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never played KSP multiplayer :)
11:10:40  <TrueBrain> not a bad thing :P
11:10:42  <TrueBrain> it is fun, but frustrated
11:10:52  <TrueBrain> you both run in your own time, and you can "catch up" with the other person
11:11:04  <TrueBrain> basically .. if you have "that friend" that is always speeding up time
11:11:07  <TrueBrain> you are always catching up
11:11:25  <Eddi|zuHause> as a rule of thumb: i'm always the slowest player :)
11:11:26  <TrueBrain> I understand the mechanism, but it is a bit frustration to play with honestly
11:11:54  <Eddi|zuHause> whenever people are waiting for the last person to end the turn, that's usually me.
11:12:19  <TrueBrain> yeah .. don't play KSP multiplayer in that case, you will hate it
11:12:22  <TrueBrain> your friends will love it
11:12:26  <TrueBrain> as they don't have to wait for you
11:18:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain updated pull request #106: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:27:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain updated pull request #66: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:27:39  <TrueBrain> okay ... I think it now all works ... I hope :P
11:27:48  <TrueBrain> there is an annoying upgrade in there, so .. lets try on staging :D
11:28:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-cli] TrueBrain merged pull request #33: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:28:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain merged pull request #69: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:28:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain merged pull request #64: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:29:07  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain merged pull request #81: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:31:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #55: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
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11:32:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain merged pull request #61: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:33:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain merged pull request #42: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:33:28  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain merged pull request #106: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:33:42  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #66: Scheduled monthly dependency update for January
11:43:54  <TrueBrain> right, seems all to be functional
11:43:56  <TrueBrain> TO PRODUCTION!
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11:46:27  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-api] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.3.2
11:46:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-frontend-web] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.1.4
11:46:49  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.4.5
11:47:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/eints] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.2.1
11:47:15  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/game-coordinator] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.5.4
11:47:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.2.10
11:47:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/master-server-web] TrueBrain created new tag: 1.3.3
11:47:38  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/DorpsGek] TrueBrain created new tag: 2.1.4
11:48:01  <TrueBrain> right, that should be all the spam there is :)
11:48:06  <TrueBrain> till next month!
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11:59:04  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain opened pull request #9779: Backport master into release/12
11:59:06  <TrueBrain> specially for you LordAro ^^
12:00:12  <TrueBrain> finally had a good test-case for a PR that was merged with rebasing .. was a bug in my script, but otherwise worked fine :)
12:00:47  <TrueBrain> updated gist :)
12:21:08  <LordAro> :)
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13:41:12  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: search for WFIRST and Luvoir
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13:42:32  <Eddi|zuHause> "The Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope, formerly known as WFIRST, is an upcoming space telescope [...]"
13:45:36  <Rubidium> yeah, you were looking for those... right?
13:45:50  <Rubidium> planned for respectively 2027 and 2039
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13:47:08  <LordAro> NGRST
13:47:22  <LordAro> doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it?
13:47:52  <LordAro> neither that or JWST are quite as simple as "Hubble"/HST
13:48:27  <Rubidium> well, JWST is commonly known a Webb though
13:48:45  <LordAro> mostly, yeah
13:49:24  <LordAro> still not clear why they needed the "James"
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13:49:49  <LordAro> it's not Edwin Hubble Space Telescope, after all
13:51:19  <Rubidium> each iteration gets one name more. Hubble, James Webb, Nancy Grace Roman... so the one after that will probably be named after some NASA administrator with four names ;)
13:52:12  <LordAro> its full name is already "Large Ultraviolet Optical Infrared Surveyor" :p
13:53:02  <Rubidium> it's not like Wide-Field Infrared Survey Telescope got renamed...
13:53:10  <LordAro> i do love the story behind WFIRST though - NRO just comes along and gives NASA 2 hubble-spec telescopes that they had lying around in a warehouse
13:53:32  <LordAro> "these are too out of date for us, you have them"
14:07:29  <FLHerne> LordAro: HST was already taken though :p
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14:46:51  <supermop_Home_> good morning
14:46:51  <TrueBrain> <- w00p, I can prerender ground sprites correctly :D
14:47:02  <TrueBrain> it is surprisingly hard to convert this into HTML in a smart way :)
14:47:02  <supermop_Home_> yay
15:00:34  <supermop_Home_> i drew some more little houses
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15:13:30  <supermop_Home_> how do i recolor in a replace block?
15:13:41  <supermop_Home_> i have this so far:
15:13:47  <supermop_Home_> replace replace_house_B_03 (4610, "images/Base_House_B_03.png") {  // Replace tropic building 4610
15:13:47  <supermop_Home_>             tmpl_hale()
15:13:47  <supermop_Home_>         }
15:14:17  <supermop_Home_> do i just put something in after the template?
15:16:31  <glx> I don't think you can recolor in a replace block, only replace a sprite or a recolor sprite
15:18:46  <supermop_Home_> ok
15:19:27  <glx> replacing is really basic, it "overwrites" and existing sprite and nothing more
15:19:37  <glx> s/and/an/
15:19:51  <supermop_Home_> this page mentions putting in recolor sprites but i guess that means to replace existing recolor sprites?:
15:20:08  <glx> yes
15:20:44  <glx> it's based on
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15:21:00  <supermop_Home_> i drew all the 'trim' on these houses as CC blue, for re-use as new houses rather than baseset ones, and wanted to recolor it all to brown for the base houses
15:21:15  <supermop_Home_> but i can just bake that in in photoshop for now
15:21:23  <supermop_Home_> on a overlay layer
15:22:21  <supermop_Home_> whoever drew the ogfx tropic apartment buildings put a ton of CC blue on there that doesn't get uses
15:25:03  <TrueBrain> those negative offsets for sprites are so annoying to deal with :P
15:25:33  <TrueBrain> (and no, making them positive doesn't help .. the issue is that you need to know the total height of a tilesprite before you can properly random it in HTML :P)
15:26:38  <glx> it's random if you don't know the height ;)
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15:28:55  <glx> offsets themselves are not that hard, except you have to translate them from virtual 3D coords to screen 2D coords
15:29:08  <glx> and that part is annoying
15:29:09  <TrueBrain> speak for yourself :P
15:29:27  <TrueBrain> but as I said, the main issue for me is the total height of a tilesprite
15:29:29  <TrueBrain> which is not as trivial as I would like
15:29:50  <glx> yeah and bounding box can lie too
15:30:04  <TrueBrain> my bounding boxes are fixed
15:30:07  <TrueBrain> so those are not an issue ;)
15:30:57  <TrueBrain> it mostly is silly HTML
15:31:07  <TrueBrain> like, it is really difficult to align an element on the bottom of something
15:32:07  <glx> can't use same way as openttd ?
15:33:31  <glx> it's like a pseudo viewport
15:33:50  <TrueBrain> creating a viewport was easy, see screenshot earlier :)
15:36:28  <TrueBrain> and OpenTTD never calculates the height of a tilesprite
15:36:37  <TrueBrain> it just draws the sprites in the spriteset
15:36:47  <TrueBrain> it really really doesn't care about anything "height" related :)
15:37:21  <TrueBrain> and sadly, the height of a tilesprite is not max(heights) or anything like that .. it is pretty tricky to calculate it
15:37:32  <TrueBrain> especially as FIRS is full of composites :P
15:39:37  <glx> yeah openttd just crops if it's too high
15:39:51  <TrueBrain> it just blitters what-ever you feed itr
15:40:02  <TrueBrain> it really really doesn't care what the total height is of sprites on a certain tile :)
15:40:51  <glx> your main issue is northern tile, it's the one you want to align with what is above
15:41:15  <TrueBrain> huh? Do you have a webcam installed? :)
15:41:20  <TrueBrain> I am scared now :P
15:41:46  <glx> well it's logical ;)
15:42:16  <TrueBrain> I have no clue why you talk about a "northern tile" honestly :)
15:42:31  <TrueBrain> I am not battling rendering a viewport, as clearly I can (see earlier link) :) That really isn't an issue
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15:42:44  <glx> northern in openttd world, ie the top most one
15:43:36  <TrueBrain> you seem to be confused with what I am actually trying to solve
15:43:37  <glx> but neighbours can be higher than it while being drawn lower
15:43:42  <TrueBrain> vs your interpretation of it :)
15:43:59  <TrueBrain> again, and I cannot stress this enough: I am NOT battling viewport issues, nor multi-tile something :)
15:45:07  <glx> yes I understand that, I think the issue is the viewport alignment itself relative to other elements of the page
15:46:01  <TrueBrain> no
15:46:42  <TrueBrain> FIRS tricks still amuse me greatly:
15:46:42  <TrueBrain>
15:47:01  <TrueBrain> every tile has a ground-tile below it, but if they aren't actually visible, they can be the weirdest things :D
15:47:04  <glx> oh a "useless" ground
15:47:57  <glx> default ground, then an always drawn childsprite to cover it
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15:50:05  <glx> I guess it was easier to do it that way we the templated stuff
15:50:17  <glx> s/we/with/
15:50:58  <TrueBrain> now where will the water tile be hiding ....
15:53:07  <TrueBrain>
15:53:07  <TrueBrain> hiddennnnn
15:54:53  <TrueBrain> glx: <- this is what I am trying to solve
15:54:57  <TrueBrain> see the mess on the right side
15:54:58  <TrueBrain> it is terrible
15:55:19  <glx> oh yeah the individual tiles
15:55:31  <TrueBrain> not like I mentioned that 5 times :P :P
15:56:11  <TrueBrain> theight = max(height + top, cheight + ctop) + max(-top, -ctop)
15:56:14  <TrueBrain> ugh
15:56:35  <glx> yeah you can't guess the height without virtually drawing sprites
15:56:52  <TrueBrain> well, no drawing involved
15:56:53  <TrueBrain> just a lot of math
15:57:10  <glx> yes virtual drawing is math
15:57:14  <TrueBrain> and iterating the whole chain in an annoying way
15:57:19  <TrueBrain> no, no drawing :)
15:57:22  <TrueBrain> just need to know the meta-data
15:59:04  <TrueBrain> luckily enough I don't care about the actual image itself
15:59:04  <TrueBrain> that makes it slightly easier
15:59:16  <glx> at least I hope FIRS doesn't use hide flag
16:00:08  <glx> because composite tiles may have optional layers
16:00:47  <glx> and dynamic position
16:01:22  <TrueBrain> lovely, groundtile 2022 is defined in coalmine.png, but it used all over the place
16:01:22  <TrueBrain> lol
16:01:51  <glx> oh I think it's also use for some stations
16:02:36  <TrueBrain> I have a hard time seeing why it is different from dirt
16:02:52  <TrueBrain>
16:02:53  <TrueBrain>
16:02:59  <glx> there are vehicle traces on it I think
16:03:17  <TrueBrain> maybe it is OpenGFX
16:03:36  <supermop_Home_> i think the ogfx one is more plain
16:04:58  <glx> yup cowpen stations uses 2022 and I can see vehicle traces with TTD original graphics
16:09:58  <TrueBrain> I really need to run auto-crop over images
16:10:03  <TrueBrain> there are some pretty weird ones in there :D
16:11:45  <glx> <-- that's 2022 for me
16:12:31  <TrueBrain> clearly the person drawing OpenGFX was like: NAH!
16:12:32  <TrueBrain> :D
16:12:57  <glx> and andy drawings are all based on original
16:13:22  <TrueBrain> I think NML has no shortcut to that image even :P
16:13:26  <supermop_Home_> TrueBrain looking at the ogfx sprite sheet to replace tropic buildings... that certainly seems to be the case
16:13:56  <TrueBrain> NML indeed doesn't have a shorthand for it
16:14:06  <TrueBrain> so I guess it is rather FIRS specific, but it is okay .. I can add one more sprite :P
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16:15:33  <TrueBrain> right ... so now "only" the tile editor itself
16:15:33  <TrueBrain> hmm
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16:22:19  <TrueBrain> something for tomorrow :D Getting there ... at least I can now see the light at the end of the tunnel :P
16:22:26  <TrueBrain> just need to find a clean way to show the different layers of a tile
16:22:34  <TrueBrain> without things jumping around like a mofo :P
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17:36:59  <TrueBrain> owh, look at that, a frosch123 !
17:37:07  <TrueBrain> welcome to 2022 :)
17:38:02  <frosch123> hoi
17:38:18  <frosch123> did someone tell andy? it's 2022
17:38:26  <TrueBrain> pretty sure he missed it
17:38:54  <andythenorth> it's what now?
17:39:34  <frosch123> log4j-year is over, it's exchange-year now
17:39:54  <TrueBrain> haha, yeah, stupid bug
17:39:55  <andythenorth> are some people still dealing with the printer thing?
17:40:00  <TrueBrain> that made me laugh really hard
17:41:19  <andythenorth> well tomorrow I can return to the land of 'what is broken today?'
17:41:32  <andythenorth> my glamorous professional career :P
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17:42:21  <TrueBrain> I delayed that with a few more days .. I smart, you silly!
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18:12:24  <glx> oh yeah it's a stupid bug indeed
18:13:13  <Rubidium> just set your clock for 2043 ;)
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18:36:02  <andythenorth> 256 cargos when? :P
18:36:04  <andythenorth> oof
18:38:29  <Rubidium> when there's a 256 bit integral type in C++?
18:38:43  <nielsm> you need a 256 bit CPU for that
18:39:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: industries also have cargo subtypes :p
18:39:31  <michi_cc> std::bitset?
18:40:03  <michi_cc> Can now even easily be used for commands with some glue code :)
18:40:11  <frosch123> std::bitset is unfortunately not compatible with string parameter {CARGO_LIST}, especially when used by GS
18:40:46  <frosch123> also, don't feed andy's madness :)
18:41:14  <andythenorth> we need the full chain for producing nuclear fuel
18:41:21  <andythenorth> but that occupies all 64 cargo slots
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18:41:58  <frosch123> how many slots do solar panels need?
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18:44:28  <andythenorth> at least 1
18:45:01  <andythenorth> it's funny that Steeltown only needs 48 cargos
18:45:59  <frosch123> you could split the chain into parts and connect them via ports. players have to run multiple games in parallel with economies Chemistry1, Chemistry2, Nuclear, ... :p
18:46:20  <andythenorth> shard the map?
18:46:31  <andythenorth> I did a test chemicals economy
18:46:33  <frosch123> pretty sure you can find more elements to add as alloys to steel
18:46:38  <andythenorth> it was reasonably complete with 50 cargos
18:46:58  <andythenorth> Alcohol, Aluminium, Ammonia, Ammonium Nitrate, Chlorine, Cleaning Agents, Copper, Electrical Parts, Engineering Supplies, Ethylene, Explosives, Farm Supplies, Fish, Food, Food Additives, Furniture, Glass, Grain, Hydrochloric Acid, Limestone, Livestock, Lye, Mail, Methanol, Milk, Naphtha, Oil, Packaging, Paints & Coatings, Passengers, Petroleum Fuels, Phosphate, Phosphoric Acid, Plant Fibres, Plastics, Potash,
18:46:58  <andythenorth>  Propylene, Rubber, Salt, Sand, Soda Ash, Steel, Sulphur, Sulphuric Acid, Textiles, Timber, Tinplate, Urea, Vehicles
18:47:05  <andythenorth> yes I did just paste that :P
18:47:50  <andythenorth> it's only a 'complete' economy that's hard to fit into 64
18:48:11  <andythenorth> if things are grouped, e.g. 'food', 'chemicals' etc it can be done in 32 cargos
18:48:20  <andythenorth> if they're de-grouped, it needs about 100 cargos
18:48:27  <andythenorth> weird scaling issue
18:48:52  <supermop_Home_> yellow rock -> factory -> power plant
18:48:57  <supermop_Home_> that's all you need
18:49:16  <andythenorth> TBH I am just going to have a port-type industry 'nuclear facility' :)
18:49:24  <supermop_Home_> yellow rock, heavy pellet, warm junk
18:49:25  <andythenorth> produces fuel rods, accepts nuclear waste
18:49:28  <supermop_Home_> 3 cargoes
18:49:42  <andythenorth> should I do munitions or not?
18:49:52  <supermop_Home_> mine produces yellow rock and warm junk
18:50:10  <Rubidium> accepts star stuff => produces star stuff
18:50:13  <supermop_Home_> factory accepts yellow rock and produces heavy pellet and warm junk
18:50:25  <andythenorth> I am making a model train economy for Wales and SW England, which irl features munitions :P
18:50:36  <andythenorth> including some really unpleasant ones
18:50:37  <andythenorth> but eh
18:50:45  <supermop_Home_> power plant accepts heavy pellet and produces warm junk
18:50:52  <supermop_Home_> no where accepts warm junk
18:50:55  <andythenorth> slug pellet
18:51:10  <andythenorth> apply to YETI
18:52:05  <supermop_Home_> GS to decrease town rating wherever you serve any of those industry types
18:52:14  <andythenorth> pollution index :P
18:52:39  <andythenorth> hmm apples and pears are 'pome fruits' group
18:52:41  <andythenorth> who knew?
18:52:52  <andythenorth> does 'orchard fruit' work better for that?
18:52:53  <supermop_Home_> really need separate cargoes
18:52:57  * andythenorth doing cider mill inputs
18:53:02  <supermop_Home_> and separate cider and perry
18:53:06  <andythenorth> well
18:53:13  <andythenorth> when we have 4096 cargos, we can do that
18:53:27  <supermop_Home_> brandy?
18:54:01  <andythenorth> peach brandy
18:54:23  <nielsm> GS occasionally culls town buildings near active X industries and instead place a "derelict ruin" map object that can't be removed by players or towns
18:54:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: oh yeah, FIRS needs an economy with apples, pears and apple-pears
18:54:35  <Rubidium> that probably needs bigger screens too. Someone might have half of the cargos in the cargo list
18:54:36  <andythenorth> are they hybrid grafts?
18:54:41  <supermop_Home_> is kirsch technically a brandy as it comes from the wine of a stonefruit?
18:54:51  <andythenorth> alcohol economy
18:55:02  <andythenorth> Buckfast Tonic Wine
18:55:28  <supermop_Home_> agaves
18:55:31  <andythenorth>
18:55:40  <frosch123> <- i had an argument about those with someone who did not like pears, but only pears that tasted like apples
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18:55:58  <supermop_Home_> separate out sotol tequilla and mezcal
18:56:16  <supermop_Home_> frosch123 i eat those all the time
18:56:31  <supermop_Home_> they sell them on my block on the sidewalk
18:56:42  <supermop_Home_> they are good in salads
18:56:58  <glx> looks like a pear to me (even if it's apple shaped)
18:57:00  <frosch123> i prefer juicy pears
18:57:20  <frosch123> glx: they call it "pear", but it has taste and consistency of an apple
18:57:24  <supermop_Home_> glx they are quite large
18:57:56  <supermop_Home_> frosch123 it tastes more pear like to me, but not like a European pear
18:58:13  <supermop_Home_> the texture is more pear like
18:59:14  <frosch123> i only had one, maybe it was not ripe enough. but it was way too solid for a pear
18:59:23  <supermop_Home_> benefit of living in Chinatown is 1) lots of fresh fruit for sale on every block, and 2) different fruits than you see at the grocery store
18:59:27  <andythenorth> many kinds of fruit
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18:59:40  <andythenorth> I did try splitting up food, but nowhere near enough cargos :P
18:59:49  <supermop_Home_> there are other food related benefits as well
19:00:19  <frosch123> andythenorth: do vehicle-set authors a favour, just add "red fruit", "yellow fruit", "green fruit" :p
19:00:27  <andythenorth> yes
19:00:34  <andythenorth> these are the important classifications
19:00:44  <frosch123> also works for bell peppers
19:00:46  <supermop_Home_> frosch123 a mixed jumble of colors looks better on the sprite tho
19:01:28  <supermop_Home_> too bad the palette is so lacking in orange shades
19:02:46  <andythenorth> dither (alternate red and yellow)
19:05:10  <supermop_Home_> when an orange is 1 px dithering is hard
19:05:29  <supermop_Home_> and that 1px orange is at least as big as a basketball
19:05:59  <supermop_Home_> 8x zoom to draw fruit cargo
19:07:33  <andythenorth> 32bpp
19:07:38  <andythenorth> all the oranges you want
19:09:01  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> I did try splitting up food, but nowhere near enough cargos :P <- add different types of grain
19:09:25  <andythenorth> barley, maize, wheat, oats
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19:11:15  <supermop_Home_> millet? rice? sorghum, rye,
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19:14:48  <frosch123> economy: gluten-free
19:16:55  <andythenorth> gluten free food contains a lot of things
19:17:04  <andythenorth> the substitutes for wheat flour are wide ranging
19:17:26  <andythenorth> also they have to put in a lot of fat and sweeteners to make it taste good
19:17:59  <andythenorth> it would need more than 64 cargos just for GF bread :P
19:20:44  <frosch123> i checked the package, my gluten-free flour contains 6 incredients
19:20:57  <frosch123> one of them is non-essential
19:21:03  <andythenorth> is it grape juice?
19:23:56  <frosch123> corn starch, corn flour, rice flour, lentil flour, modified cassava starch, tara-vine-seed-flour
19:24:50  <supermop_Home_> how many root crops cargoes andy?
19:30:50  <andythenorth> 28
19:34:28  <andythenorth> GF flour here is rice, potato, tapioca, carob, sugar beet, xantham gum
19:34:43  <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ root crops including mangel-wurzel, or excluding?
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19:40:06  <Gustavo6046> The starting date thing in the timetable is confusing
19:40:15  <Gustavo6046> I always hold Ctrl so my vehicles try to space evenly across the orders
19:40:39  <Gustavo6046> Thing is, sometimes they do wait until the "starting date" or sometime after that, sometimes they do the first order and start right away (and do not show as running late).
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19:46:33  <supermop_Home_> it depends on where they are in there own order list when you start the schedule
19:47:03  <Gustavo6046> ah
19:47:18  <supermop_Home_> and confusingly, vehicles still in the depot when the timetable starts will be in reverse order
19:47:30  <Gustavo6046> another thing is that I often have a bunch of vehicles running, and I issue a Start date, and they loop to the first order and start running a whole heap of days late..
19:47:55  <Gustavo6046> Is there a way to "auto start date", so they start once they're all ready to, still with the option to space start dates evenly?
19:48:07  <supermop_Home_> that is - the highest number vehicle gets the earliest start date
19:49:07  <Gustavo6046> ah
19:49:23  <Gustavo6046> that sounds like a not very important technical detail
19:49:26  <Gustavo6046> but confusing, yeah
19:50:22  <andythenorth> timetables don't work
19:50:25  <Gustavo6046> ah :(
19:50:25  <andythenorth> use JGRPP
19:50:28  <supermop_Home_> andythenorth they do
19:50:29  <Gustavo6046> :o
19:50:44  <supermop_Home_> I've use timetables successfully for like a decade
19:50:44  <andythenorth> in JGRPP you just click the button and the result happens
19:50:48  <supermop_Home_> they work fine
19:50:54  <andythenorth> you have to find the right button, there are 2 or 3
19:51:21  <supermop_Home_> you just need to try it a couple times and learn from observing what happens
19:51:30  <Gustavo6046> is JGRPP like a newgrf?
19:51:37  <nielsm> no
19:51:38  <Gustavo6046> or another obscure but super amazing feature like Cargodist?
19:51:44  <andythenorth>
19:51:45  <Gustavo6046> I swear, when I found out about Cargodist I couldn't believe I never knew about it
19:51:52  <Gustavo6046> I fell off the chair... emotionally, not physically!
19:51:52  <nielsm> it's a different version of the game
19:51:55  <Gustavo6046> Oh.
19:52:13  <Gustavo6046> Hm
19:52:25  <Gustavo6046> supermop_Home_, they do be tedious to set up, but I think they're cool
19:52:29  <Gustavo6046> having vehicles space out nicely
19:53:02  <Gustavo6046> huh I'm just repaying my loan until I have enough money (within the loan limit) to buy a 2cc metro train (monorail?)
19:53:19  <supermop_Home_> i'd rather have more people advocating for tweaking time tables to be a bit more intuitive to use that everyone saying 'there are no timetables in the base game, give up and use jgr'
19:53:27  <Gustavo6046> there should be some sort of fee when loaning, or like a slight difference between how much you loan and how much you have to pay back, to discourage this kind of financial dexterity
19:53:38  <Gustavo6046> supermop_Home_, I agree with that.
19:53:47  <supermop_Home_> Gustavo6046 you have to pay interest
19:53:50  <Gustavo6046> Timetables are cool but could be better, and deserve to be
19:53:59  <Gustavo6046> Yeah, the interest is actually encouraging financial dexterity
19:54:13  <Gustavo6046> Loan a lot, do stuff, pay out your loans and keep paying as money comes in, then loan again to do more stuff
19:54:27  <Gustavo6046> Then you don't pay interests unless you're actively building something!
19:54:40  <Gustavo6046> That is, until you're in a comfortable enough balance to pay out and never loan again.
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19:55:57  <Gustavo6046> Without interest one simply wouldn't care about paying out, but then again that would make moot the point of being able to loan and pay out, or having creditors in the first place.
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19:56:24  <andythenorth> auto-spacing of vehicles is the single most significant advantage of JGRPP
19:57:08  <LordAro> would be really nice to have something that properly works (in an obvious way) in vanilla
19:59:29  <Gustavo6046> andythenorth, yes but so do vanilla timetables
19:59:38  <Gustavo6046> station ratings etc
19:59:54  <Gustavo6046> it's just a bit more painful to pull off, which I don't agree with, but should be fixed rather than simply tiptoed around
20:00:04  <andythenorth> I never got vanilla timetables to work for auto separate
20:00:13  <andythenorth> no matter how many magic hotkey combos I tried
20:00:20  <andythenorth> literally does not work
20:01:21  <Gustavo6046> they work for me
20:01:41  <Gustavo6046> is that for road vehicles? make sure you have multiple parallel stations rather than one single line
20:01:51  <andythenorth> ships
20:01:56  <andythenorth> trams
20:02:00  <andythenorth> I never tried buses
20:02:07  <Gustavo6046> for trams works fine for me
20:02:15  <andythenorth> I've seen a youtube video comparing vanilla, joker and jgrpp
20:02:21  <andythenorth> for separation
20:02:48  <Gustavo6046> if it's not good it should be fixed though
20:02:53  <Gustavo6046> vanilla should be THE example of how to do it
20:03:02  <Gustavo6046> it shouldn't be a pasasble baseline
20:03:43  <Gustavo6046> I'd prioritize polishing it, even little corners like that, and also make a bit more polish on the mobile UI (it's fine and clearly thought went into the touch interface, but it gets cluttered fast)
20:07:55  <_dp_> there is usually more than one opinion on how to do stuff in vanilla :p
20:08:23  <_dp_> also mobile version isn't vanilla, it's a fork maintained by a single person, much like jgrpp
20:10:06  <Gustavo6046> ah
20:11:10  <andythenorth> I don't want to accidentally be a gatekeeper :P
20:11:26  <andythenorth> but as JGRPP exists, it's unlikely to be fixed in vanilla
20:11:36  <andythenorth> JGR was interested to fix it and can make decisions
20:11:47  <andythenorth> vanilla neither of those are true right now today
20:12:06  <andythenorth> * specific to this issue
20:16:13  <Gustavo6046> hmm, okay
20:16:21  <Gustavo6046> I understand your concern
20:16:24  <Gustavo6046> it's, in a way, political :p
20:16:27  <Gustavo6046> I mean, it really is!
20:16:35  <Gustavo6046> Broad sense politics means to manage the concerns of a bunch of people
20:16:56  <andythenorth> more like managing interest :)
20:16:58  <andythenorth> if anything
20:17:03  <andythenorth> managing here is limited :)
20:17:09  <Gustavo6046> Mhm
20:17:15  <michi_cc> It's very likely to get fixed in vanilla (if there's something to fix), but only if somebody turns up to do the work.
20:19:53  <glx> and once anything is in vanilla, we have to maintain it
20:19:55  <Gustavo6046> C++... I dunno.
20:20:04  <Gustavo6046> I'd love to help, but I have a bad history with C++  :p
20:21:13  <andythenorth> glx we do? :o
20:22:15  <Gustavo6046> Why can't I transport my trains via big huge airplane? :p
20:22:33  <Gustavo6046> glx, well, yes, to keep it working together with all of the OTHER moving parts...
20:26:28  <glx> andythenorth: well major bugs, crashes, ...
20:27:06  <andythenorth> oh that :)
20:28:04  <LordAro> i'd quite like there to be an official mobile ui too, but that'd a rather larger amount of work
20:32:00  <frosch123> do you ever play on mobile?
20:32:07  <Gustavo6046> Articulated trams get stuck if a station ends abruptly rather than having a single piece of tramrail to loop around.
20:32:21  <Gustavo6046> Meanwhile, single piece trams just "teleport" to the other rail.
20:32:23  <Gustavo6046> or lane
20:32:26  <Gustavo6046> One or the other, please!
20:32:29  <LordAro> frosch123: no, but i bet there are people that would if it were (more) available
20:32:48  <Gustavo6046> Or justify it, I dunno, maybe just say articulation makes it harder to teleport a tram short distances like you can with short types :p
20:32:53  * Gustavo6046 is not a short type
20:32:58  <frosch123> Gustavo6046: the former also applies also to tram tracks
20:33:06  * Gustavo6046 totally is a short type, though (171cm)
20:33:13  <Gustavo6046> frosch123, hm?
20:33:24  <Gustavo6046> wait, but I *am* talking about trams
20:33:26  <Gustavo6046> am confused
20:33:28  <frosch123> the latter is an exception to avoid deadlocks, if the next tile is not buidable
20:33:50  <frosch123> trams always need a u-turn for reversing
20:34:12  <Gustavo6046> ahh
20:34:32  <Gustavo6046> deadlocks?
20:34:55  <frosch123> imagine building a tram track straight into an industry
20:35:10  <frosch123> when the tram is on the tile, you cannot remove the track, because the tram is on it
20:35:24  <frosch123> but you cannot extend the track either, because the industry is irremovable
20:35:36  <frosch123> so the tram would be stuck forever
20:40:13  <Gustavo6046> true
20:40:25  <Gustavo6046> I have almost had that happen, but it was with city tile. I had to remove it and that made me quite sad.
20:40:30  <Gustavo6046> (and the mayor pretty upset)
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20:44:05  <Gustavo6046> But I see what you mean
20:51:21  <andythenorth> what is the hazardous cargo class intended for?
20:51:28  <andythenorth> should I use it to require a brake van in the train or something?
20:51:34  <andythenorth> restrict speed?
20:53:24  <andythenorth> also NUKE for nuclear fuel?
20:54:20  <frosch123> afaik the hazardous class was invented by people who could edit wikis, but did not do newgrfs
20:55:07  <andythenorth> oic :)
20:55:19  * andythenorth thinks of BAD FEATURES to use it for
20:55:19  <glx> ah like roadmaps
20:55:22  <frosch123> but yeah, add a 200t vehicle, which carries 10t of freight, and is limited to 20 km/h :p
20:56:32  <andythenorth> lol the roadmap is still there?
20:56:37  <andythenorth> I thought we deleted it :)
20:56:56  <andythenorth> I enjoy also that the entire 'development' section is no longer linked :P
20:57:01  <andythenorth> after I spent a few days cleaning it up
20:57:04  <andythenorth> all things die :)
20:57:20  <frosch123> it's linked from the docs folder in the sources
20:57:46  <andythenorth> it is
20:57:50  <frosch123> there is some kind of disagreement there :p some people want dev docs in the repository, others want to translate it
20:57:55  <andythenorth> this is standard
20:58:04  <andythenorth> I've never seen any project which agrees on docs
20:58:25  <frosch123> i just moved all the junk to Archive/
20:58:32  <frosch123> people still keep on editing
20:59:25  <andythenorth> people seem to people
20:59:47  <andythenorth> hmm maybe I can do this in 64 cargos
21:00:00  <andythenorth> fortunately Wales only produces sheep, 3 kinds of steel, tinplate and petrol
21:00:13  <andythenorth> so I didn't need many cargos for that part of the map
21:00:44  * andythenorth overlooks the historical role of Wales as the richest coal exporting region in the world
21:01:02  <glx> different wool color maybe
21:02:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: count new-south-wales as part of wales? maybe you have coal again then
21:02:31  <andythenorth> coals to newcastle
21:02:34  <andythenorth> newcastle NSW
21:09:59  <frosch123> why is MS not included in FAANG? is the term too old, before MS became relevant again?
21:11:39  <andythenorth> wow Netflix is in there?
21:11:45  <andythenorth> surely that's aging :P
21:12:06  <frosch123> also true, i don't understand how netflix compares to the other 4
21:12:16  <nielsm> have anyone tried this?
21:12:46  <frosch123> uff. that brings back work memories...
21:13:17  <frosch123> company has a policy to not share source code between subsidiaries, but still shares pdbs
21:13:35  <frosch123> so someone wrote a pdb->uml tool
21:14:12  <frosch123> generate docs from pdbs :p
21:22:48  <andythenorth> oof
21:23:01  <andythenorth> one day I make FIRS compile move pax, mail and food automatically
21:23:08  * andythenorth keeps having to move them in a list
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22:21:46  <Gustavo6046> Hmm, the even timetabling does seem to not work very well for ships, which is odd
22:22:38  <Gustavo6046> Curiously it did for my trams
22:22:54  <Gustavo6046> well, not well for my trams, but it did for my other road vehicles, and my trains
22:22:58  <Gustavo6046> and even airplanes I recall
22:23:31  <Gustavo6046> Maybe automatically evening the starting date for ships and trams doesn't work well for some reason?
22:23:35  <Gustavo6046> (I *am* using NewGRFs.)
22:23:56  <Gustavo6046>
22:23:58  <frosch123> trams can't overtake
22:24:12  <Gustavo6046> The only relevant NewGRFs are 2cc {Cargo,} Trams, and SHARK, respectively.
22:24:13  <frosch123> that may be an issue
22:24:23  <Gustavo6046> Hmm, maybe
22:26:21  <Gustavo6046> Oo, some of my trams certainly are evening out a bit though
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22:43:45  <Gustavo6046> It's hard for most types of vehicles to overtake each other - even busses and trucks have difficulty e.g. if they're of the same model. Additionally, without timetable slack, it's nigh impossible for them to slowly "gravitate" towards an evenly spaced schedule if they start clumped up, but timetable slack is also antithetic to efficiency.
22:44:27  <Gustavo6046> Ultimately, spacing out timetables evenly is pleasant when done correctly, but more an art than a science, and it's quite difficult to get just right. Plus, it takes a while to even be noticeable, unless you set a later start date, and even then sometimes they just leave in somewhat of a burst for whatever reason.
22:44:56  <Gustavo6046> This is my thoughts on it. I think it's a cool feature that can actually help, say, with station ratings, or distributing congestion on routes and stations, and one that deserves more love and polish.
22:55:05  <Gustavo6046> Oh, also drive-through stations and their tendency to clump up cars in them can be a problem :p
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23:19:20  <Gustavo6046> mhm
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