Log for #openttd on 5th June 2022:
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09:51:10  <Samu> i turned #9915 as a draft, my proposed fix isn't good enough, it doesn't fit all purposes, sorry
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10:46:00  <TrueBrain> if a townname GRF fails to load, you don't get the usual popup that a NewGRF failed to load :P
10:46:06  <TrueBrain> it is only visible in the console that it failed
10:46:13  <TrueBrain> not even in the NewGRF window it shows it failed to load ..
10:46:15  <TrueBrain> our UI could use some love :D
10:46:25  <TrueBrain> (old news, I know :P)
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12:39:01  <frosch123> yay, TRU1 arrived on bananas :)
12:43:00  <glx> oh no
13:02:42  <Samu> hi glx, i am tackling 9914 in a different manner
13:03:18  <Samu> i will use a variable that tracks whether the pathfinder was run
13:04:16  <Samu> !v->path.empty() isn't sufficient
13:07:06  <Samu> unconditionally doing it is also the wrong approach, :|
13:08:51  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #9915: Fix #9914, 86818e5: prevent useless pathfinder run for blocked vehicles
13:16:03  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #9915: Fix #9914, 86818e5: prevent useless pathfinder run for blocked vehicles
13:16:11  <Samu> a cleaner diff
13:28:59  <frosch123> i wonder, should truegrf auto-generate the grfid from the github userid?
13:29:35  <frosch123> compute some 16bit hash from the userid and use as first 2 bytes, pick a random number for bytes 3 and 4?
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13:30:31  <frosch123> grfid = (userid % 0xFFFF) | (random & 0xFFFF) << 16
13:31:01  <frosch123> would avoid reservedgrfids FFFFxxxx
13:31:32  <peter1138> Finally found a use for my Leap Motion controller... MIDI expression. But it turns out that waving your arm in the air gets heavy.
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14:34:57  <Samu> why is TileIndex values so much harder to see in visual studio?
14:36:33  <Samu> -		StrongIntegralTypedef<unsigned int,TileIndex>	{...}	StrongIntegralTypedef<unsigned int,TileIndex>
14:36:41  <Samu> what is this
14:42:02  <glx> it's for the new command stuff, that way TileIndex is really TileIndex and can't be any int
14:54:12  <frosch123> <- transferred idea from above to GH
14:58:52  <Samu> hmm, yapf path caching doesn't add reverse trackdirs to the cache, but it still queues the tracks that come after reverse
14:59:06  <Samu> and openttd doesn't handle it properly
14:59:19  <Samu> it clears the cache
14:59:25  <Samu> and it shouldn't
15:00:04  <Samu> openttd expected a reverse trackdir in the path cache
15:01:01  <Samu> instead, it invalidates the rest of the path queue, clears it, forcing it to do an expensive pathfinding call
15:01:10  <Samu> next time it gets to it
16:09:45  <TrueBrain> Lol ... frosch123, that was a lot quicker than I expected
16:09:51  <TrueBrain> Wanted to blacklist is :D
16:10:04  <TrueBrain> Owh well ....
16:10:07  <TrueBrain> Your idea sounds good :)
16:10:10  <Samu> hey peter1138, shouldn't this line be "if (!v->path.empty() && v->path.tile.front() == tile) v->path.clear();" over here ->
16:11:21  <Samu> in the same manner you made it for line 959
16:11:41  <frosch123> now it is blacklisted :)
16:11:56  <frosch123> i wonder who will get TRU2 to 9 :p
16:15:22  <Samu> I've been hunting for false calls to v->path.clear() when the cache is legitimaly valid, and they all seem to point to that being the problem, because it doesn't check tile.front == tile
16:16:09  <glx> still the main issue is the AI making impossible orders
16:17:23  <glx> increased pathfinding is just a side effect
16:19:37  <glx> cache can't be valid if it doesn't lead to the expected destination
16:20:05  <Samu> that's where it does a reverse, reverse trackdirs aren't added to the cache, but the rest of the cache is valid
16:20:24  <Samu> so, it shouldn't clear the cache
16:21:43  <Samu> im bad at explaining this, perhaps
16:21:51  <glx> if you have to reverse while following the cached path then it's invalid
16:22:20  <glx> because cached path should lead you to the destination
16:24:17  <glx> might be removed road tile or whatever but the path no longer exists
16:24:37  <Samu> I see I fail at explaining :( the pathfinder did take reverse into account, it just doesn't add the reverse trackdir code into the path cache
16:24:42  <Samu> something like this
16:25:12  <glx> it reverses and restart pathfinding from there on next run
16:25:19  <Samu> queue looks like this: east - east - east - west - west - west
16:25:28  <Samu> the reverse isn't there
16:25:47  <Samu> it would be east - east - east - reverse - west - west - west
16:25:52  <glx> it doesn't have to, the vehicle shoul have turn around
16:26:48  <glx> the reversing here is really the result of cache following
16:27:17  <glx> no valid path will have reversing in it
16:28:40  <Samu> the reverse is handled outside the cache. what it should do, once it gets to a dead end, is giving it the reverse trackdir, put it in-between the cache, without clearing it
16:28:45  <nielsm> hmm... the game isn't aware at all that it's starting a new game from a scenario, apparently... I wonder if it'd make sense to set a flag for that
16:29:11  <glx> that's not the idea of caching
16:29:29  <glx> if you reversed you have to restart from scratch
16:29:30  <Samu> so it reads the values east - east - east, then fabricates the reverse trackdir, and then continue with the cache, west - west - west
16:30:08  <LordAro> caching is only used for complete paths
16:30:09  <nielsm> the point of the path cache is to store the found path, not some paths that were decided to not be taken
16:30:16  <LordAro> if a path involves a reverse, that's not a complete path
16:30:29  <glx> usually lost vehicles will try to find a valid path on each crossing
16:30:46  <glx> the main issue here is the AI generating lost vehicles
16:30:53  <glx> not the pathfinding
16:31:24  <LordAro> Samu: what issue are you trying to solve?
16:31:45  <LordAro> glx: lost vehicles, AI-generated or otherwise, shouldn't tank the game's performance
16:32:00  <LordAro> most of the traffic AIs intentionally generate lost vehicles, iirc?
16:32:28  <glx> in this case it's an unreachable depot in vehicle order
16:33:15  <LordAro> so we need a way of flagging an order destination as unreachable, so the pathfinder doesn't keep trying?
16:33:16  <glx> so pathfinder has to check every tiles before giving up
16:33:26  <LordAro> (which then gets cleared "at some point")
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16:36:51  <frosch123> i think there is already VF_PATHFINDER_LOST
16:36:58  <frosch123> i think it's used for the news message
16:37:01  <glx> I think in this exact case it's a combination of lost and blocked
16:39:01  <Samu> i believe i solved the issues on #9914 with #9915, and now I was onto hunting false path cache clearings
16:40:07  <Samu> I put breakpoints in all "v->path.clear()" to hunt them, and examine their cache
16:42:43  <Samu> most of the time the cache is cleared correctly, because some other AI has built a new crossroad in the meanwhile, so it's fine to invalidate the cache
16:43:39  <Samu> but this one I'm talking about, the reversing, is where I find the oddity of clearing it, when no one has changed the roads
16:44:14  <glx> why is it reversing then ?
16:46:20  <glx> a valid path is the direct path to the destination, if you need to reverse it's not direct, thus invalid
16:46:58  <Samu> but that's how yapf do
16:47:43  <Samu> it takes reversing into account, but does not put reverse trackdirs into the cache
16:48:14  <Samu> it has to be handled externaly
16:49:17  <LordAro> yapf should not be taking reversing into account
16:49:22  <glx> a path with reversing can't be the best path
16:49:37  <LordAro> oh, trams maybe?
16:50:06  <LordAro> and actually, drive through road stops too
16:53:17  <frosch123> <- TrueBrain: i like the version "2022.06.01(v2)" :p
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16:53:42  <LordAro> :D
16:54:17  <glx> but reversing should be quite rare, won't happen on each pf run
16:54:22  <TrueBrain> For when you have more than one release a day ;)
16:54:35  <LordAro> glx: not necessarily, if you have a drive-through on a dead end
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17:01:48  <glx> then needs to be improved to check next node is (tile, reversed_trackdir)
17:05:13  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick updated pull request #9915: Fix #9914, 86818e5: prevent useless pathfinder run for blocked vehicles
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18:10:24  <TrueBrain> hmm .. so I guess the easiest thing to do for GRFIDs is to have a small server-side components that tracks what GRFIDs are assigned or something ..
18:11:07  <frosch123> you already scan for existing projects when starting a new project
18:11:20  <TrueBrain> yeah, but I don't look in the actual projects
18:11:28  <TrueBrain> I just list the repositories and check for a certain topic
18:11:46  <frosch123> oh, i assumed you checked for truegrf.yaml
18:11:50  <TrueBrain> nah
18:12:18  <TrueBrain> it uses this "truegrf" topic
18:12:26  <TrueBrain> which also serves as an excellent way to find other projects :)
18:12:43  <TrueBrain> funny, some people did use 0000002
18:12:52  <TrueBrain> but nobody used anything after 54540401
18:13:06  <TrueBrain> ah, no, GitHub is just being annoying
18:13:15  <TrueBrain> 161 missing entries from listing, and no way to get them, nice
18:14:19  <TrueBrain> I like your idea of having a fixed character for "TrueGRF Industry GRF"
18:14:28  <TrueBrain> can do the same for the others .. each their unique thingy
18:14:36  <TrueBrain> d0 -> industry, d1 -> townnames, etc
18:14:54  <TrueBrain> that leaves 24 bits for everything else .. hmm
18:15:01  <frosch123> i was wondering about the FFxxxxxx for basesets
18:15:07  <frosch123> maybe F1xxxxxx could be for industries
18:15:17  <TrueBrain> already some F1 exist
18:15:19  <frosch123> there is no reason to check for other types
18:15:45  <TrueBrain> no, but I don't care about the types :P I just want a space I can safely use :D
18:15:52  <frosch123> all F1 are firs :p
18:15:55  <TrueBrain> s/types/checks/
18:16:08  <TrueBrain> okay, so f1 for industries, f2 for townnames, etc
18:16:16  <TrueBrain> and I have to blacklist xx25xxxx
18:16:17  <_dp_> just check bananas for free grfid :p
18:16:18  <TrueBrain> :D
18:16:26  <frosch123> ah, so you do not want to use ids per owner, but a space for truegrf
18:16:45  <_dp_> actually, that would be a nice service to have regardless of truegrf
18:16:52  <TrueBrain> f2xxxxxx is not used atm by anyone, so an excellent candidate to claim for all townname grfs :)
18:17:25  <TrueBrain> I can make something simple that gives an unique number in that space back
18:17:30  <TrueBrain> so the first repository is f2000001
18:17:35  <TrueBrain> who-ever the author is
18:17:41  <TrueBrain> but I can also assign an id to an author
18:17:53  <TrueBrain> and use, say, the last 2 for the nth GRF of theirs it is
18:18:02  <TrueBrain> so f2XXXXYY, where XXXX is an unique number for the author
18:18:07  <TrueBrain> and YY is what GRF it is
18:18:17  <TrueBrain> just means if someone makes more than 256 townname GRFs, things don't work out
18:18:26  <TrueBrain> (and I can only have 65536 unique authors :P)
18:18:55  <frosch123> imagine having 64k grfs on bananas :p
18:19:14  <TrueBrain> please don't :)
18:20:16  <TrueBrain> the reason I am thinking in this way, is that a) we will not have hash collision (and the space is small enough that based on names can cause hash collisions), b) using f2xxxxxx means I don't  have to check any external service for collisions, c) it is big enough that I do not expect any real issues any time soon
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18:20:53  <TrueBrain> mainly my worry is that we might collide with some popular GRF that is not on BaNaNaS
18:23:00  <frosch123> F1, FB, FE, FF seem to be the only things in the Fx range
18:23:19  <TrueBrain> yeah, that is why I like that prefix .. it seems "safe"
18:23:35  <TrueBrain> Dxxxxxxx is completely empty it seems
18:23:42  <TrueBrain> but .. f1, f2, etc looks a bit nicer
18:23:53  <frosch123> just don't use 97, that's the drama range or something
18:24:08  <TrueBrain> drama everywhere you look, aint it? :D
18:24:14  <TrueBrain> btw, they had a vote, seems stations is next on the list :P
18:24:42  <frosch123> haha, did we merge stations for nml yet, or still PR without review?
18:24:52  <TrueBrain> I am guessing the latter
18:25:00  <frosch123> still, stations are probably easier than trains
18:25:21  <TrueBrain> okay, alternatively, what I can do, is use the GitHub Username and Repository name, make a hash like you suggest, and check on BaNaNaS for a collision .. easy enough to build that
18:25:23  <frosch123> more objective opinions :p
18:25:26  <TrueBrain> just what to do when there is a collision ..
18:25:57  <frosch123> i like prefixing with the grftype, esp because of the existing FF
18:26:04  <frosch123> though there is only a usecase for industries
18:26:27  <frosch123> author-prefix is not really important
18:26:40  <TrueBrain> so I can just use a single range for everyone you think?
18:26:59  <TrueBrain> there won't be a "I want to block this user's grfs from my grf" situation?
18:28:07  <frosch123> i am not aware of any precedent for that
18:28:14  <TrueBrain> how ever you slice it, it wouldn't really matter that much
18:28:21  <frosch123> but maybe people want a "block truegrf spam from my online content list" option :p
18:28:33  <TrueBrain> nobody is going to make 256 GRFs of a single type, and TrueGRF is not going to have 64k authors :P
18:29:00  <TrueBrain> okay, so I have two technical solutions .. either I can make a service that upon request gives the next number in the batch
18:29:08  <frosch123> remember the guy making 64 cargo grfs? :p
18:29:09  <TrueBrain> of course I will secure it up a bit that it only works for legit repositories etc
18:29:20  <TrueBrain> or I can make a GitHub repository, where a commit is made when someone creates a new TrueGRF project
18:29:36  <frosch123> but yeah, it's a good spam measure. prevent people creating more than 256 townname sets
18:29:44  <TrueBrain> I remember he is still fully convinced "that is just fine" :P
18:30:27  <frosch123> a github repo with pubilc access? sounds troublesome
18:30:36  <TrueBrain> no, it will run through some server-side component
18:30:40  <TrueBrain> much like BaNaNaS database
18:31:11  <TrueBrain> basically, am I going to use Cloudflare KV as backend storage, or GitHub :P
18:31:23  <TrueBrain> guess GitHub is more in line with what we have been doing
18:31:29  <frosch123> how about just using 24 random bits?
18:31:44  <frosch123> type prefix + 24 random bits
18:31:46  <TrueBrain> how to detect collisions?
18:31:52  <TrueBrain> (as that will happen :P)
18:32:06  <frosch123> i will donate cookies for every non-bot collision
18:32:34  <frosch123> bananas can detect them on upload
18:33:27  <TrueBrain> hmm .. I guess I could make a button: "Change GRFID", which first checks if the current GRFID indeed gives a collision on BaNaNaS, and next changes it if that is the case
18:33:32  <TrueBrain> as ultimate "shit hit the fan" procedure
18:33:34  <frosch123> you can also use "unixtimestamp & 0xFFFFFF" to provide a challenge :p
18:33:38  <TrueBrain> which of course I will only build after the first complain :)
18:33:59  <TrueBrain> @calc 2**24 / 3600 / 24 / 365
18:33:59  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 0.532002029426687
18:34:09  <TrueBrain> sadly, within 6 months that is an issue :P
18:34:21  <TrueBrain> we could do it by the minute
18:34:30  <TrueBrain> chances of people making a project on the same minute is rather slim
18:34:34  <frosch123> yeah, people will make an event to press a button in the right second
18:34:57  <frosch123> minute or second makes no difference wrt. collissions
18:35:20  <frosch123> it's not like 2**24 seconds align with daytime
18:35:36  <frosch123> so it's equailly distributed
18:36:45  <TrueBrain> I think just a full random works fine
18:37:00  <TrueBrain> there will be someone some day that notices: I cannot upload to BaNaNaS!!! :P
18:37:04  <TrueBrain> but .. we deal with that when that happens
18:37:11  <TrueBrain> I like simple solutions
18:38:48  <TrueBrain> what storage does the GRF version have?
18:38:49  <TrueBrain> 32bit?
18:39:00  <frosch123> yes
18:39:20  <TrueBrain> right .. so yeah, days is a bad idea for TrueGRF
18:39:21  <frosch123> i think coop limited it to 16bit to imitate the ottd version
18:39:35  <TrueBrain> but I like the concept
18:39:45  <TrueBrain> I could just do the seconds since 2020-01-01
18:39:52  <frosch123> but noone ever put branches in the upper bits
18:40:09  <frosch123> which would be useless inside ottd anyway, since it would still only show the highest version
18:40:26  <TrueBrain> or indeed I could just increase the number on commit to the dev-branch
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18:40:33  <TrueBrain> but that is an extra API call every change ..
18:40:50  <TrueBrain> @calc 2**32 / 3600 / 24 / 365
18:40:50  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 136.19251953323186
18:41:00  <TrueBrain> yeah ... 2000-01-01 works fine too :P
18:41:13  <frosch123> well, if you add publish-to-bananas, i guess you would like to put the same version into the bananas version
18:41:28  <frosch123> so, really it's a decision whether you want version 1,2,3 on bananas, or 2022.05.01
18:41:56  <TrueBrain> there is also a string-based version, right?
18:42:00  <TrueBrain> but that you enter in BaNaNaS, I guess
18:42:15  <frosch123> yes, bananas has a string, no idea how many chars
18:42:22  <frosch123> but ottd wants an integer inside the grf
18:42:26  <TrueBrain> unlimited, most likely :)
18:42:35  <TrueBrain> (and with unlimited, I mean 32 :P)
18:42:49  <frosch123> pretty sure *not* unlimited. the ottd-protocol is still the one from 2009
18:43:02  <TrueBrain> what I like about the coop approach, you don't have to worry about it at all .. it "just" works
18:43:19  <TrueBrain> and does anyone really care about the version inside the GRF
18:43:23  <TrueBrain> can you even see it somewhere?
18:43:47  <frosch123> it's shown in-game, but maybe only with some setting
18:44:19  <frosch123> if ((_settings_client.gui.newgrf_" target="_blank">client.gui.newgrf_developer_tools || _settings_client.gui.newgrf_" target="_blank">client.gui.newgrf_show_old_versions) && c->version != 0) {
18:44:38  <TrueBrain> and, and non-zero
18:44:59  <frosch123> yeah, zero is the same as "no action14"
18:45:06  <TrueBrain> ideally, it is only added when you commit to main
18:45:12  <TrueBrain> as those are "these are now for real" commits
18:45:24  <TrueBrain> but I could also do it upon release
18:46:01  <frosch123> i think that TRU1 guy just used the "download grf" button, and then uploaded to bananas
18:46:07  <TrueBrain> yeah
18:46:12  <TrueBrain> there is no release flow yet
18:46:20  <TrueBrain> and I noticed most people also don't understand the "Project" part yet
18:46:47  <TrueBrain> but I plan to add releases there, so you can make real releases
18:47:19  <TrueBrain> so till I get to that, let's skip the GRF version for now; and lets do that properly when I get there
18:47:23  <TrueBrain> but lets now first fix the GRFID :D
18:47:26  <TrueBrain> as that is just broken now :P
18:51:37  <TrueBrain> right ... now to think ... did I have to byteswap this or not ...
18:51:45  <TrueBrain> did TRU1 become TRU1, or did it become 1URT ..
18:51:55  <TrueBrain> (in terms of BaNaNaS folder listing :P)
18:52:18  <TrueBrain> TRU1, good
18:54:28  <TrueBrain> grfid: "ñþ\x01\x92"
18:54:29  <TrueBrain> lovely :P
18:55:33  <TrueBrain> okay .... now the title screen doesn't want to load
18:55:50  <TrueBrain> amazing
18:55:51  <TrueBrain> how did I manage to do that by reloading a NewGRF?!
18:56:16  <TrueBrain> pretty sure I broke something in OpenTTD .. and I think that is because my GRFID is not 4 characters or something
18:56:57  <frosch123> nah, i also had that effect yesterday
18:57:09  <frosch123> didn't figure it out either
18:57:38  <TrueBrain> openttd.html:132 dbg: [sl] Game Load Failed
18:57:43  <TrueBrain> weird
19:00:00  <TrueBrain> yeah, when I make a GRF where the GRFID is not 4 characters long, weird shit happens :D
19:00:06  <TrueBrain> it does not handle that all to well :P
19:00:20  <TrueBrain> okay ... so ... I guess ... this is utf-8 encoding being a bit too trigger happy? :)
19:00:57  <TrueBrain> 0x92 becomes 0xc2 0x92
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19:02:31  <TrueBrain> lets make this in hex :)
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19:08:04  <TrueBrain> grfid: '-e6ce408'
19:08:10  <TrueBrain> tnx javascript ... exactly what I meant ?!
19:10:40  <TrueBrain> for some reason, it sometimes makes bit-operations signed
19:10:41  <TrueBrain> but not always
19:10:42  <TrueBrain> lol?
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19:38:24  <_dp_> number type in javascript is super weird, it's a freakish mix of float and int32
19:47:09  <TrueBrain>
19:47:09  <TrueBrain> lol?
19:47:56  <TrueBrain> ah ... I hard-coded that it injects TRU1 via the reload buttons
19:48:01  <TrueBrain> and as the name is different .. things break :D
19:48:02  <TrueBrain> lol
20:03:09  <TrueBrain> grrrr ... even with BSWAP32 it doesn't work :P Why is this so hard ..
20:04:41  <frosch123> can you make it a hex string of length 8?
20:04:52  <TrueBrain> I did, yes
20:05:12  <frosch123> and js still turns it into a int32? :p
20:05:20  <TrueBrain> owh, no, the int32 I solved
20:05:40  <TrueBrain> magic ">>> 0"
20:05:47  <TrueBrain> but I am trying to tell OpenTTD to reload the GRF
20:05:51  <TrueBrain> but it keeps saying: I DONT KNOW YOU
20:07:56  <TrueBrain> right, the dude that uploaded under TRU1 will also get a new GRFID on next load of TrueGRF ..
20:08:02  <TrueBrain> guess .. we are going to hope he is not going to make a next version?
20:08:54  <TrueBrain> when we see him upload a new one, we just link the old to the new
20:08:57  <TrueBrain> we did that before :)
20:09:21  <frosch123> someone had to block TRU1 :)
20:09:43  <TrueBrain> hmm ... I send 0000000
20:09:50  <TrueBrain> how did I do that ...
20:11:19  <TrueBrain> by being a peanut!
20:12:02  <TrueBrain> I love how small my TrueGRF patch for OpenTTD is
20:12:07  <TrueBrain> I am sad there is no way I can ever get it upstream :P
20:12:41  <TrueBrain> and tnx frosch123 for the info on #70 .. I knew that, but completely forgot :P
20:13:58  <frosch123> i wondered, it felt like truegrf enforced the first 32 cargos at some point
20:14:09  <frosch123> not sure whether i imagined that, or whether it got lost in some gui conversion
20:14:29  <TrueBrain> I once started the IDs from 32
20:14:40  <TrueBrain> but later I changed that to just skipping those "these are required"
20:14:53  <TrueBrain> and now I removed all that completely :P
20:14:56  <TrueBrain> so that will be fun fixing :D
20:15:43  <TrueBrain> not looking forward to writing that migration script :) But .. I knew, and I didn't add it before releasing .. I can only blame myself !
20:16:54  <TrueBrain> but can't believe that someone released a real townname grf a day after releasing the functionality .. and 2 days after starting to build it .. guess you were right there frosch123 , that there is demand for townnames :D
20:17:52  <frosch123> haha, yeah, it's a list of ~50 real town names from some island on the other side of the globe :)
20:19:14  <frosch123> silversurfer had like 20 newgrf with cars and townnames from various tv series and franchises
20:20:46  <TrueBrain> I can understand people making these .. it is easy to do, and it is pretty funny
20:20:52  <TrueBrain> at least, I had fun creating fictive dutch citynames :D
20:22:42  <TrueBrain> also surprised that so far they only discovered 1 compiler crash .. I expected more issues :P
20:23:57  <Samu> that moment you head to bed and remember one of your PRs might actually be wrong... happened last night
20:24:30  <Samu> so for today, I'ma leaving PR as draft
20:24:49  <Samu> maybe I'll think of more things while in bed again
20:24:53  <Samu> lol
20:25:43  <TrueBrain> so, while a new release is baking .... what do I need to know about NewGRF Stations? :P
20:26:54  <frosch123> similar as for industries: do not expose the spritelayouts :)
20:28:24  <frosch123> authors may choose tiletypes between: building without track, platform with track, platform with track but without electrification pylons
20:29:07  <frosch123> technically there can be 8 combinations of (track/no track, wires/no wires, pylons/no pylons), but a newgrf can only choose 4
20:29:30  <frosch123> i think giving that choice to authors is way too difficult to explain, so truegrf should pick the 4 :p
20:29:46  <frosch123> otherwise: you always have to draw two orientations of every tile, X and Y
20:30:15  <TrueBrain> you name 3, and say 4, what is the 4th?
20:30:42  <frosch123> i am not sure whether anyone needs platform without pylons and wires
20:31:05  <frosch123> pylons look weird inside closed stations, but missing wires are weird
20:31:43  <TrueBrain> is there a station GRF that is somewhat decent and under a permissive license, so I can use that as example project?
20:31:54  <frosch123> anyway, picking one of those 3/4 types defines the spritelayout and the tilelayout
20:32:10  <TrueBrain> okay, so really similar to industries
20:32:32  <frosch123> i think the existing station grfs are notoriously complicated :)
20:33:57  <frosch123> stations do not have a separate tile-feature like industries do. also they do not define the spritelayout in action2, but in action0
20:34:13  <TrueBrain> because, why not :D
20:34:17  <frosch123> but since truegrf should have opinions about spritelayouts, you can just fix the spritelayouts, and always use the same
20:35:09  <frosch123> the tile layout defines the 8 options from above, is stored in the map array, so fixed after construction
20:35:54  <frosch123> the spritelayout can be picked via callback, but following the opinionated part, truegrf doe snot need that
20:36:11  <frosch123> displayed sprites are picked via action123
20:36:21  <TrueBrain> (in the meantime, deployed TrueGRF v3.1.0, with the GRFID changes :D)
20:36:54  <frosch123> for platforms you need a magic value for the groundsprite, which ottd replaces with climate/railtype specific sprites
20:37:52  <frosch123> traditionally the action2 can pick different spritesets depending on the amount of waiting cargo. but afaik noone likes that, since waiting cargo is always zero with "full load"-waiting trains
20:38:02  <frosch123> so, maybe just skip that :p
20:38:59  <TrueBrain> ghehe
20:39:06  <TrueBrain> oof, company colours are a thing too ofc
20:39:19  <frosch123> already was for industries
20:39:28  <TrueBrain> true
20:39:34  <TrueBrain> I just enabled it by default :D
20:39:39  <TrueBrain> for all sprites :P
20:39:58  <frosch123> make the same choice for stations :)
20:40:25  <TrueBrain> okay, I do not follow the spritelayout stuff exactly .. but I need to read a bit more anyway
20:40:32  <TrueBrain> I see you can also disallow certain platform lengths etc
20:41:01  <frosch123> when building stations, you can restrict the size options to 2x1 or 2x2 or whatever size your building has. but since you can always remove single tiles, i think that should be skipped as well?
20:41:16  <TrueBrain> lol
20:41:26  <TrueBrain> so you can only build it, say, 2x2, but then you can remove tiles and make it 1x2
20:41:28  <TrueBrain> right :P
20:41:31  <TrueBrain> that is rather pointless :D
20:41:44  <frosch123> well, you will have halfed building sometimes
20:42:19  <frosch123> the good sets check neighbouring tiles and use different sprites depending on whether the same building continues, or ends
20:43:24  <TrueBrain> and I have no clue how to make an UI for that :D
20:44:25  <frosch123> a lot of 2D games also check adjacen tiles, you maybe you could just offer to define 5 sprites
20:45:20  <frosch123> (continuation in X: NE, SW, NE+SW, none) * same for Y
20:45:26  <frosch123> so 16, not 5 :p
20:45:43  <frosch123> maybe not that great of an idea then
20:45:51  <TrueBrain> in Unity you have this rule-based concept, which handles exactly this
20:46:00  <TrueBrain> but it is complex to understand at first :)
20:47:33  <frosch123> i hardly play with stations (too much work to build), so no idea how often animations are actually used
20:47:48  <frosch123> i recall some moving cargo cranes, but they were rather choppy
20:48:05  <frosch123> some stations have doors which open/close using the PBS reservation state
20:48:54  <TrueBrain> okay .. so just to recap for me, see if I am understanding this a bit correct
20:49:06  <TrueBrain> the spritelayout defines certain states a tile can be in, which is stored in the map array
20:49:13  <TrueBrain> so tracks yes/no
20:49:16  <frosch123> nope :p
20:49:18  <TrueBrain> roof
20:49:22  <frosch123> s/spritelayout/tilelayout/ :)
20:49:38  <TrueBrain> a tilelayout resolves to a spritelayout, not?
20:49:48  <frosch123> no, different things
20:50:08  <frosch123> i think even orthogonal
20:53:35  <TrueBrain> yeah, I have no clue what you meant with spritelayout and tilelayout in that case :)
20:56:28  <frosch123> when building a station property 0E / callback 24 is used to decide 3 flags (train can enter tile, draw pylons, draw wires) by indexing properties 11, 14, 15 (which effectivtely pick 4 of 8 possible cases)
20:57:11  <TrueBrain> the specs don't mention any of that, so I am a bit at a loss how that works
20:57:25  <frosch123> when drawing a station callback 14 decides which spritelayout to use from property 1A, and a regular sprite resolve fills the layout with sprites
20:57:55  <frosch123> yeah, the specs are incremental, and i skipped all the deprecated parts :p
20:59:10  <TrueBrain> prop 1A scares me
21:00:54  <TrueBrain> but I don't see how what you say and I said is different :D
21:01:01  <TrueBrain> so yeah .. we have a problem :P (and it is ME!)
21:01:11  <frosch123> prop 1A is the one, which is most similar to industies :p
21:01:25  <TrueBrain> how I read you and the specs, when building a station, prop 0e is used to figure out what tile goes where
21:01:38  <TrueBrain> so, does it have rails or not, etc
21:01:49  <TrueBrain> this is stored on the map
21:02:05  <TrueBrain> when drawing, prop 09 (or 1A I guess) is used to figure out how to make that a reality?
21:02:57  <frosch123> there is an extra level of indirection
21:03:05  <frosch123> the result of callback 24 is stored in the map array
21:03:21  <frosch123> that value is used to index property 15, which decides whether there is rail
21:04:29  <TrueBrain> so those 8 (well, 4, but in each direction) tiles can be redefined how they behave completely, in terms of rail, pylons and wires
21:06:55  <TrueBrain> any real reason industries are over 2 features and stations over 1?
21:08:04  <TrueBrain> can I force bounding boxes here in the same way as with industries?
21:09:10  <TrueBrain> should I care about prop1B (bridges)?
21:09:56  <frosch123>
21:10:24  <frosch123> using prop1B will disable the grf in vanilla ottd
21:10:35  <frosch123> you will need special jgrpp-detection stuff to support that
21:10:54  <frosch123> so, definitely not for first version :)
21:11:33  <TrueBrain> tnx for the paste
21:11:47  <TrueBrain> what is this "magic value" you talk about? :P
21:12:09  <TrueBrain> and I read that here I do have to deal with bounding boxes .. will be fun :D
21:12:17  <frosch123> it's the plain track sprite from the baseset
21:12:41  <frosch123> i am sure the number is in the source somewhere :p
21:13:00  <frosch123> you can copy the spritelayout of the default stations from the source as well
21:13:27  <TrueBrain> so this talk about 0/1/2 for ground-sprites
21:13:34  <TrueBrain> if I use the magic values, nothing to worry about? :P
21:13:43  <frosch123>
21:14:10  <TrueBrain> do you have any idea how tricky it is to find the actual sprite number based on those references? :P
21:14:13  <TrueBrain> I got hurt before :D
21:14:39  <TrueBrain> let's hope 1070 will work .. we will find out :P
21:15:15  <frosch123>
21:15:21  <TrueBrain> anyway, the 8 (4x2) tile values map directly on the sprite layout, right?
21:16:52  <TrueBrain> and do I get it right there is no actual limit on the amount of sprites you can draw on a single tile?
21:17:00  <frosch123> yes, you can use cb14 to change that, but i see no reason to do so
21:17:31  <TrueBrain> don't I need to use cb14 if I want to be context-aware? As in, to know the tile left of me is tile blabla?
21:17:53  <frosch123> same as for industries, the spitelayout has a sentinel, no length value :)
21:18:37  <frosch123> depends whether your context actually changes the bounding boxes, which it probably doesn't
21:18:58  <frosch123> the actualy sprites to use in the layout are defined by callback0/no-callback
21:18:58  <TrueBrain> owh, the sprite itself can also read the context ofc
21:19:25  <TrueBrain> so okay, main thing I will need help with is this "before" and "after" train bounding box value :)
21:19:41  <TrueBrain> can we just define 2 bounding boxes which will "just work"?
21:19:51  <frosch123> see station_land.h#L61 from above
21:20:12  <frosch123> i recommend to use the same bounding boxes as the default stations :)
21:20:21  <TrueBrain> okay, so not making it configurable
21:20:24  <TrueBrain> that is all I wanted to hear :P
21:20:54  <frosch123> players can choose "building" or "platform", which picks between two sets of bounding boxes
21:21:02  <frosch123> s/players/users/
21:21:28  <TrueBrain> so we just need to think of 4 types that will be "enough for everyone" :P
21:21:37  <frosch123> exactly :)
21:21:51  <TrueBrain> well, honestly, making it dynamic doesn't sound like a lot of trouble from a TrueGRF point of view
21:21:55  <TrueBrain> but let's start simple
21:22:02  <TrueBrain> so platform and building
21:22:34  <frosch123> i am not aware of any station mixing platform and building tiles in the same station part
21:22:47  <frosch123> so that can be a pretty top-level decision
21:23:11  <TrueBrain> for industries I now kinda forces 2 layers on a tile
21:23:12  <TrueBrain> ground + building
21:23:18  <TrueBrain> so for stations I want to start off with something similar
21:23:22  <TrueBrain> ground, okay, easy
21:23:27  <TrueBrain> building for building tiles, sure
21:23:33  <TrueBrain> but for platform tiles, it might be a bit more tricky
21:23:49  <frosch123> platforms have two building essentially :)
21:23:49  <TrueBrain> if I look at vanilla alone
21:23:51  <TrueBrain> so I guess I do have to add layers here the user can add
21:24:09  <frosch123> 2 fixed layers, not any number of layers
21:24:30  <TrueBrain> ground (read: rail) + building on platform + building above platform?
21:24:59  <frosch123> ground (read: rail) + stuff behind train + stuff in-front of train
21:25:10  <TrueBrain> you just want them to put everything on a single sprite
21:25:11  <TrueBrain> hmm
21:25:35  <frosch123> "stuff behind train" can also be called "far platform", and "stuff in-front of train" can be called "near platform + roof"
21:25:37  <TrueBrain> same with industries, works for now :P
21:27:21  <TrueBrain> now to find out where you define the names of stations ..
21:27:33  <frosch123> action 4
21:27:45  <frosch123> you set a name for every station
21:27:57  <frosch123> and then you group stations using property 08, and assign a name to that group
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21:28:52  <TrueBrain> only 16 classes can exist in total?
21:28:53  <frosch123> oh, right, there are also WAYPOINTS
21:29:03  <frosch123> TrueBrain: in ttdp, yes :p
21:29:13  <TrueBrain> it does not mention that detail
21:29:24  <TrueBrain> are classes global?
21:29:30  <TrueBrain> as in, do I need to worry about that?
21:29:32  <frosch123> 256 per grf
21:29:48  <TrueBrain> or can I just use AAAA, AAAB, etc, and name them?
21:30:01  <frosch123> newgrf can put stations into the same class to share the same group
21:30:19  <frosch123> but it turns out grf authors always want to name the groups "awesome stuff by me"
21:30:21  <TrueBrain> okay, so the user needs to be able to fill it in :)
21:30:26  <frosch123> so they end up grf-pure
21:30:31  <TrueBrain> haha
21:30:35  <TrueBrain> right, no surprise there
21:30:51  <TrueBrain> okay, tnx a lot frosch123 , I think I understand how to get started :)
21:31:14  <glx> unless default and waypoint classes
21:31:35  <frosch123> the names of the groups are set by action4 and using the stringids C4xx
21:31:56  <frosch123> (i am sure noone would find that part on their own :p)
21:32:06  <TrueBrain> btw frosch123 , if you are ever bored, let me know if you spot me doing something stupid in GRFs for industries:
21:32:07  <TrueBrain>
21:32:26  <TrueBrain> instead of properties I used names, but I am sure you understand that part :D
21:32:43  <TrueBrain> up till line 250, after that is not really readable and important :P
21:33:36  <frosch123> i am sure authors will find a ways to make something stupid anyway
21:33:47  <TrueBrain> they always do!
21:34:00  <glx> and station tile layouts can have some dynamic values, but it's a pain to do ;)
21:34:17  <frosch123> psst :p
21:34:17  <TrueBrain> funny, townnames GRF have a lot less readable code to generate the actions
21:34:21  <TrueBrain> but actionF is just a bit weird
21:34:26  <frosch123> i just convinced tb to not use those
21:35:04  <TrueBrain> most code for townnames is creating a DAG and figuring out in what order to generate sets :P
21:35:22  <glx> yeah it's possible to do without them, I think CHIPS magic tiles don't use this feature in NFO
21:35:41  <TrueBrain> I am still thinking how to do context-aware things
21:35:47  <TrueBrain> but that is not for the first version :)
21:35:55  <TrueBrain> industries have similar issues, ofc
21:36:26  <TrueBrain> so many things to configure on a single tile :)
21:37:16  <TrueBrain> owh well, things to think about ... now zzz
21:37:19  <TrueBrain> tnx again frosch123 :)
21:37:34  <glx> <-- but it's hard to read
21:37:40  <glx> templated nfo
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21:38:46  <TrueBrain> station tiles for the type of cargo stored on it?
21:38:49  <TrueBrain> or am I reading that wrong?
21:39:34  <frosch123> chips as some mineral-piles tiles
21:39:37  <frosch123> *has
21:39:47  <TrueBrain> funny
21:39:50  <frosch123> you can put piles of coal or ore next to your station
21:39:56  <frosch123> or containers
21:40:06  <frosch123> you can do the same with objects
21:40:10  <TrueBrain> is that part of the station, or an object?
21:40:17  <frosch123> but objects do not add to the station catchment
21:40:38  <TrueBrain> owh, it is not depending on what is in the station, but just a station-part you can place?
21:40:43  <frosch123> non-track stations and objects cover the same use-case, but one counts to the station catchment, the other doesn't
21:40:59  <TrueBrain> I was hoping it would pick the right sprite depending on the available cargo
21:41:16  <frosch123> TrueBrain: it can depend on what cargo is waiting, but when you use "full load cargo" and always have a train waiting, that is rather boring
21:41:33  <TrueBrain> true .. so don't do that! :D
21:41:35  <frosch123> i don't remember what chips did
21:41:40  <glx> magic tiles pick the cargo
21:41:40  <TrueBrain> pax stations will be crowded! :P
21:41:52  <frosch123> i think at some point andy advertised to never use full-load, so stations are prettier
21:41:59  <glx>
21:42:32  <TrueBrain> not for the first version, but I like the idea :P
21:43:14  <frosch123> TrueBrain: there is variable 69 to get a general idea about which cargos are handled at the station
21:43:32  <frosch123> so, if you don't care about amounts, that can be used
21:44:09  <glx> I have the generate 30K lines CHIPS NFO if you want
21:44:14  <glx> *generated
21:44:20  <TrueBrain> no tnx, I am good :P
21:44:33  <TrueBrain> cargo accepted ...
21:44:41  <TrueBrain> is that cargo that was delivered to the station
21:44:45  <frosch123> yeah, not "cargo delivered"
21:44:50  <TrueBrain> or cargo that the station accepted and made available for trains
21:44:57  <TrueBrain> it is such a weird word to use there :)
21:45:00  <frosch123> i think it's "cargo unloaded from train to station"
21:45:01  <TrueBrain> lacks context :)
21:45:19  <TrueBrain> and nobody ever requested the inverse? :D
21:45:23  <TrueBrain> as that is much more interesting :)
21:45:39  <TrueBrain> deliveries to stations are, at least in vanilla, instant
21:45:40  <frosch123> the inverse only has "cargo waiting"
21:45:54  <TrueBrain> yeah, but you want to know if that cargo has been waiting in the last 3 months or so
21:45:58  <TrueBrain> to not get a blinking sprite
21:46:03  <frosch123> and there is a 15 year debate on whether to change that to "amount of cargo handled last month"
21:46:06  <TrueBrain> THERE IS CARGO, no there is not, THERE IS CARGO, no ... :P
21:46:17  <TrueBrain> why change? ADD! :D
21:46:18  <frosch123> to get rid of the full-load issue
21:46:31  <TrueBrain> yeah, I kinda expected that to already exist :)
21:46:33  <glx> little/lot
21:46:40  <glx> you set the range
21:46:52  <frosch123> TrueBrain: now you can implement it :)
21:47:01  <TrueBrain> I don't even dare (yet) :P
21:47:06  <TrueBrain> what I do dare, is zzz
21:47:08  <TrueBrain> night guys :)
21:47:18  <frosch123> currently everyone is argueing about liveries, so maybe you can sneak in the waiting-cargo thing :p
21:48:08  <glx> and you can't really determine the cargo type in action 3, openttd decides
21:48:33  <frosch123> glx: you can use 60+x vars, and ignore action3
21:49:47  <glx> so layout select callback is used in this case
21:51:05  <glx> CHIPS uses the callback to analyse surrounding tiles and put buffers or things like that
21:52:16  <frosch123> it's similar to ogfx+industriies/landscape to put fences around industries and objects
21:52:42  <glx> multiple layouts and determine the right one for the nfo version, for the nml version I used advanced mode, 1 layout and magic
21:53:21  <glx> but it's the hardest option, and not recommended
21:53:26  <frosch123> so many ways :) truegrf can just pick one
21:53:42  <glx> I just wanted to test my implementation :)
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21:54:28  <glx> btw CHIPS just relies on action 3 for cargo type
21:55:08  <glx> but the result can be random if many cargos are sent to the station
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