Log for #openttd on 17th July 2022:
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06:19:43  <TrueBrain> 50 tickets left for another cake!
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07:18:20  <andythenorth> yo
07:18:27  <TrueBrain> hi
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08:13:57  <andythenorth> do I need to test this one, or can we just inspect it?
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12:16:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 approved pull request #9952: Fix #9951: Scenario editor random industries button and persistent storage
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15:15:35  <andythenorth> well
15:19:06  <andythenorth> it's intended that railtypes 'compatible' is only determined for lead vehicle, yes?
15:35:43  <frosch123> lead of articulated vehicle? possible
15:35:47  <frosch123> front engine of train? no
15:39:27  <andythenorth> is compatibility ever resolved for wagons (unpowered vehicles)?
15:39:34  * andythenorth could just read src probably :P
15:40:13  <frosch123> compatibility should affect train attachment
15:40:20  <frosch123> poweredness should affect purchase list
15:40:40  <andythenorth> there is a one way compatibility in effect in the test case
15:40:57  <frosch123> compatibility is mostly useless, some theoretical concept noone would have invented, if forum people weren't like they are
15:41:04  <frosch123> poweredness is the important thing
15:41:10  <andythenorth> I read the thread :P
15:41:11  <andythenorth> all the pages
15:41:34  <andythenorth> I have created a 'high clearance' railtype
15:41:57  <andythenorth> for e.g.
15:42:06  <andythenorth> RAIL vehicles can traverse high clearance
15:42:07  <frosch123> how does it affect game play?
15:42:21  <andythenorth> high clearance vehicles are intended to not traverse RAIL
15:42:23  <frosch123> higher fences?
15:42:41  <glx> larger tunnels
15:42:46  <andythenorth> it's just an arbitrary gameplay constraint
15:42:50  <frosch123> i guess my unwritten blog recommends: leave role playing to the players, keep it out of newgrf
15:42:52  <andythenorth> to trade off against electrifying
15:43:12  <andythenorth> it's a choose-your-own-adventure type role play: take the red pill or the blue
15:43:33  <andythenorth> I am quite happy to abandon it, I am just curious what's supposed to happen
15:43:44  <andythenorth> the same issue arises with narrow gauge wagons on RAIL
15:43:59  <frosch123> well, treat it like a different type of power then
15:44:06  <frosch123> diesel engines will be able to run on it
15:44:11  <frosch123> normal electic won't
15:44:20  <frosch123> your special ones will
15:44:27  <andythenorth> that already works
15:44:35  <andythenorth> the issue is that high clearance trains traverse rail
15:44:40  <andythenorth> if they're not the leading vehicle in a consist
15:44:51  <andythenorth> compatibility is only determined for leading engine
15:44:55  <glx> to mix a DC+AC engines you use a diesel to shunt ?
15:45:30  <frosch123> that behavior is correct for poweredness: elecric engines may be pulled on normal track
15:45:36  <andythenorth> I wonder if I should update the wiki
15:45:51  <frosch123> i think something enforces compatibility to be a superset of poweredness
15:45:58  <andythenorth> we already have a 'dual gauge' grf out there that 'breaks' narrow gauge trains
15:47:55  <andythenorth> might be this?
15:49:05  <andythenorth> so only determined for engines
15:50:09  <andythenorth> so all compatible_railtypes does is prevent the train driving onto railtypes where it would be unpowered (and get stuck)?
15:50:48  <glx> I think it's assumed that if it can attach, it can run, but might be unpowered
15:51:15  <andythenorth> +1
15:51:58  <glx> works fine for electric vs diesel, different story for gauges
15:52:36  <frosch123> that function ORs compatiblity, shouldn't it AND?
15:53:10  <frosch123> ah, no, it only computed poweredness
15:54:01  <andythenorth> wiki should have a note, 'wagons are compatible with all railtypes' or similar?
15:54:30  <andythenorth> hmm
15:54:37  <andythenorth> no it's more complicated
15:55:26  <andythenorth> "wagons are compatible with *all* railtypes when travelling, but will only be shown in 'new vehicles' menu for depots matching their compatible track type"
15:56:30  <frosch123> compatible_railtypes is used about nowhere :p
15:56:45  <frosch123> maybe compatible_railtypes is mostly not implemented?
15:56:59  <andythenorth> I suspect it's used in depot buy list
15:57:01  <andythenorth> let's see
15:58:03  <andythenorth> hmm what is CheckCompatibleRail doing?
15:58:26  <andythenorth> !v->IsFrontEngine()
15:58:38  <andythenorth> is this an optimisation?
15:59:01  <glx> it's to prevent running trains to enter in incompatible tracks
15:59:19  <glx> like a monorail/maglev junction
16:00:19  <glx> but allows RAIL engine to enter ELRL track
16:02:37  * andythenorth reading IsEngineBuildable
16:02:47  <andythenorth> wagons are also engines, but with power 0 yes/no?
16:04:40  <glx> yes, prop 0B is 0 for a wagon
16:05:25  <andythenorth> ok so compatible_railtypes is used for building / autoreplace
16:05:45  <andythenorth> and a few custom cases for ELRL to provide legacy support
16:06:06  <andythenorth> and in the pathfinders
16:06:40  <andythenorth> are the pathfinders why it can only be checked for lead engine?
16:06:45  <andythenorth> otherwise too slow?
16:07:12  <frosch123> you have to check it for the front engine, otherwise the train would fall apart
16:07:22  <frosch123> however, you could cache the AND result in the front-engine cache
16:07:26  <frosch123> and use that for testing
16:07:40  <frosch123> it's done for powerness, but not for compatibleness
16:08:24  <frosch123> i.e. it's correct that CheckCompatibleRail only checks for  IsFrontEngine
16:08:42  <frosch123> but it's wrong that it checks using v->compatible_Railtypes, instead of something else
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16:09:36  <frosch123> i guess you can fix it by changing ConsistChanged
16:10:37  <frosch123> compatible_railtypes should be the intersection of all individual compatibilitities, intersected with the union of all powernesses
16:10:56  <frosch123> that way the train only runs on track, which are compatible with all parts, and at least one engine is powered
16:19:18  * andythenorth looks
16:26:47  <glx> total_power calculation is too precise, maybe should not rely on actual power, but on potential power of the whole consist depending on possible railtypes and poweredness
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17:00:07  <TrueBrain> @calc 0xc8
17:00:07  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 200
17:00:14  <TrueBrain> my DHCP server is broken, so there was no other way :P
17:01:15  <peter1138> Just google it
17:01:33  <TrueBrain> and tell them the secret numbers I am looking up? Sjees
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18:01:38  <andythenorth> oops, fell asleep
18:01:45  <andythenorth> unscheduled nap
18:14:49  <andythenorth> hmm there might be a funny Horse edge case I should test
18:15:15  <andythenorth> there are driving cab cars which have a small amount of power so they can lead the train (track type is RAIL)
18:15:29  <andythenorth> then an ELRL loco is attached to rear end of train
18:15:42  <andythenorth> probably they will drive on non ELRL tracks currently, but really slowly
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19:57:33  <frosch123> andythenorth:
19:57:38  <frosch123> maybe that fixes it
19:57:48  <frosch123> if it does, someone needs to figure out PBS
19:58:08  <frosch123> PBS does some other magic with railtypes, when checking reservations
20:01:57  <andythenorth> I should test it
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20:08:25  <frosch123> i only checked compilation, it may crash on start :)
20:08:45  <andythenorth> nah
20:08:50  <andythenorth> seems to work
20:08:57  <andythenorth> haven't thought of any interesting edge cases to test yet
20:09:11  <andythenorth> the trivial cases work as expected now
20:11:46  <andythenorth> the 'stopping' case remains present, when consist with AC engine + DC engine crosses from AC to DC or vice versa
20:11:58  <andythenorth> I saw the code for that is elsewhere though
20:12:25  <andythenorth> PR time? :P
20:12:48  <frosch123> what is the stopping case?
20:14:20  <andythenorth>
20:14:34  <andythenorth> engine 1 is powered on A, engine 2 is powered on B
20:14:48  <andythenorth> briefly whilst crossing the gap, the consist becomes unpowered
20:14:49  <andythenorth> so stops
20:14:55  <andythenorth> the player can then restart it
20:15:09  <frosch123> haha, ok :)
20:15:10  <andythenorth> glx found the line
20:15:17  <frosch123> i guess if it has enough speed it could make it
20:15:20  <andythenorth> yes
20:15:33  <andythenorth> otherwise it will stop anyway
20:15:34  <frosch123> but in the end i don't know what to do if it stops for other reason
20:15:42  <glx> it's
20:16:08  <andythenorth> if power is 0, won't it just come to a halt anyway?
20:16:17  <glx> no power so stopping, but with momentum it gets power again and can be restarted manually
20:16:22  <andythenorth> maybe stopping helps the player find it
20:16:34  <andythenorth> or something
20:16:56  <glx> stop is not instant except on signal or blocked
20:29:35  <andythenorth> hmm
20:29:48  <andythenorth> I could adjust power by railtype, and use the user bits :P
20:29:56  <andythenorth> to provide a small amount of coasting behaviour
20:30:18  <andythenorth> can I fit a game date into user bits? :P
20:30:42  <frosch123> sounds desyncy
20:31:01  <andythenorth> also power by railtype is surely cached? :P
20:31:25  <glx> power is cached on consist change
20:32:06  <frosch123> i guess ottd should supply some minimal recover power, if power is 0 otherwise
20:32:11  <frosch123> then we can disable the stopping
20:32:33  <frosch123> if the train has enough momentum, it will rush through
20:32:40  <frosch123> otherwise slowly crawl until it is repowered
20:32:56  <andythenorth> don't we do that on hills already?
20:33:05  <andythenorth> I read the code once, I remember some minimal hill speed
20:33:06  <frosch123> yes, something like that
20:38:16  <andythenorth> sounds good :)
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21:25:18  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 opened pull request #9953: Fix: Trains only considered railtype-poweredness, and mostly ignored railtype-compatibility.
21:27:37  <andythenorth> lol passengers
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21:28:37  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I expect images of that
21:28:53  <TrueBrain> 1hp .. that are a lot of pax ;)
21:29:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #9953: Fix: Trains only considered railtype-poweredness, and mostly ignored railtype-compatibility.
21:33:06  <frosch123> TrueBrain:
21:33:18  <frosch123> not sure whether there are train versions of "car stuck girls"
21:33:19  <TrueBrain> "Ladies and gentlemen, as you might have noticed we came to a complete stop as our manager is incompetent. Please get out and start pushing"
21:34:30  <andythenorth> there is probably a thomas the tank engine episode for it
21:34:36  <glx> luckily it should not require too much power to move steel wheel on steel
21:35:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: btw. of course i did not check, whether the vehicle actually moves with 1hp
21:35:13  <frosch123> i just assume that the uphill-min thing kicks in
21:35:43  <frosch123> though that may only exist for realistic acceleration
21:35:51  <frosch123> no idea how original acceleration does it
21:36:05  <andythenorth> I'll test it
21:42:42  <andythenorth> can't find a trigger for it
21:42:59  <andythenorth> other than by changing grfs
21:43:11  <andythenorth> the transition across 2 railtypes now works fine, no stopping
21:43:53  <frosch123> can you manual stop it and restart it?
21:48:56  <andythenorth> oh manual stopping takes very long time :)
21:50:12  <andythenorth> it basically works fine
21:50:20  <andythenorth> if I had Twitch I could stream it :P
21:51:42  <andythenorth> the braking / deceleration rate seems off
21:51:53  <frosch123> ah, "stream"... do we have any plans for 20-years-of-newgrf next month?
21:52:06  <andythenorth> I do not :P
21:52:10  <andythenorth> but streams are fun
21:52:12  <frosch123> me neither :)
21:52:20  <andythenorth> there are some very early grfs to see
21:52:25  <andythenorth> was NewShips the first?
21:52:44  <frosch123> maybe, but probably noone has the first version of it
21:52:58  <frosch123> also, noone likes mb :p
21:54:54  * andythenorth doing forum archeology now
21:56:46  <andythenorth> good thread
21:57:22  <frosch123> that's a "we do not want newgrf thread" :)
21:57:29  <andythenorth> "meh I have no interest of discussing things with you Dalestan, I find your tone offensive and your reasoning annoying."
21:57:47  <frosch123> but it never hurts to highlight TrueBrain and glx with "GPMI" :)
21:58:10  <glx> no, that didn't exist
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22:02:11  <andythenorth> first forum mention of newgrf seems to be
22:02:16  <andythenorth> eh also, bedtime :P
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22:32:52  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison commented on pull request #9953: Fix: Trains only considered railtype-poweredness, and mostly ignored railtype-compatibility.
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