Log for on 25th September 2012:
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18:49:32  <frosch123> i still like the "keep order of introduction and extroduction"-change the most
18:49:52  <frosch123> don't think adding dependencies as for railtypes would make it easier
18:53:11  <Alberth> perhaps we should always keep stuff introduced at the same date together
18:53:42  <frosch123> yeah, that's what i mean
18:53:56  <frosch123> setting the same introdate would also cause the same randomisation
18:56:20  <Yexo> that should be easy enough to implement
18:56:33  <frosch123> intro is easy
18:56:39  <Alberth> I agree, the EMU proposal seems very complicated to me, even at a birds-eye view
18:56:41  <frosch123> i am not sure how to handle extroduction :p
18:56:48  <Yexo> is that important?
18:57:16  <frosch123> i guess if introdate and lifetime are set to the same value, both intro and extro date should be the same
18:57:18  <Yexo> it could make sense if an engine is available even if you can't buy any new wagons for it, just to replace existing engines
18:57:20  <frosch123> but that is about the only case :p
18:57:37  <Yexo> other way around can be explained the same way: possible to add some new wagons to an existing engine, but not buy new engines
18:58:47  <Yexo> what would the effect be on trying out new engines?
18:59:07  <frosch123> you lost me
18:59:09  <Yexo> basically you get one engine/wagon a year before the introduction date, but it's useless if you mess a wagon you need for the engine
18:59:18  <Yexo> s/mess/miss/
19:01:51  <frosch123> i have no idea what you mean :)
19:03:09  <frosch123> are you referring to aligning the intro of one engine with the extro of another one?
19:03:14  <frosch123> i don't think that is needed
19:03:19  <frosch123> you always want some overlap
19:04:04  <Yexo> wasn't the whole problem that people wanted to introduce an engine and a matching wagon at exactly the same time?
19:04:17  <Yexo> since neither of the two would be useful without the other?
19:06:25  <Alberth> wouldn't you have the same introduction date then?
19:06:50  <Alberth> and since same introduction date sticks together, it works?
19:09:09  <Yexo> yes, but sometimes you get an offer to preview a certain vehicle, you basically get it one year earlier
19:09:20  <Yexo> if we don't change anything to that the vehicle wouldn't be useful in the preview year
19:09:42  <frosch123> ah, preview makes it more complicated :s
19:10:08  <frosch123> would mean previewing one means previewing all
19:10:23  <Alberth> and that problem does not exist now?
19:10:31  <Yexo> it does exist now
19:10:40  <Alberth> ah, ok
19:10:54  <Yexo> but if we want a solution for it we need to think it through properly and not leave part of the problem behind
19:11:30  <frosch123> preview might not work so nice via some implicit rule like "same intro date"
19:12:03  <frosch123> so, maybe we need indeed some property to define engines/vehicles having the same intro and or same extro date
19:12:40  <frosch123> just some a0 property with a list of engine ids
19:13:35  <frosch123> ottd would enforce transitivity if the property is set for different engines
19:14:25  <Yexo> one property with a list or a property that can be specified multiple times?
19:14:40  <frosch123> likely the latter
19:14:52  <frosch123> do we need some kind of resetting of the property?
19:15:01  <frosch123> or any other fancy stuff with addon-grfs?
19:16:03  <frosch123> or maybe something easier? just two properties "copy intro date from engine" and "copy extro date from engine"?
19:16:03  <Yexo> I don't think reset is needed
19:16:15  <frosch123> so you have to set intro and lifetime for one engine
19:16:19  <frosch123> and the copy stuff for all others?
19:16:30  <Yexo> hmm, I like that idea :)
19:16:44  <frosch123> (copy stuff would overrule intro dates, if the engine is valid)
19:17:12  <Yexo> why not last property stays? That way you could overrule the copy stuff with a new intro date in an addon newgrf
19:17:35  <frosch123> what to do in case of circles? :p
19:17:47  <Yexo> disable the newgrf
19:19:48  <frosch123> do we want to allow c copies from b, b copies from a?
19:20:02  <frosch123> or should we enforce: only copy from stuff which does not copy?
19:20:42  <Yexo> the latter is much easier to code, and I don't see a good reason to allow copies from a to b to c
19:20:58  <frosch123> yup :)
20:08:49  <Alberth> wow, mockups of a more unified order window are complicated! (
20:09:45  <planetmaker> omg...!
20:19:17  <frosch123> begin/middle/end is hard to draw an icon for
20:19:32  <frosch123> esp. if it shall be rtl-neutral
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20:27:00  <Alberth> I like the attempt though;   perhaps if you start horizontally (as the direction the train comes from)?
20:27:01  <Alberth> We could have icons for LTR and RTL languages
20:27:44  <frosch123> yeah, we have that for some icons
20:27:49  <frosch123> but it always means more work :)
20:28:01  <frosch123> maybe we can also switch begin/end for rtl
20:32:38  <Alberth> hmm, newgrf vehicle parent scope is again a parent :)
20:32:51  <Alberth> *vehicle
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20:43:59  <SmatZ> ohi
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21:09:16  <frosch123> night
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