Log for on 22nd October 2012:
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13:18:16  <Belugas> hello
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17:08:53  <planetmaker> <-- I reworked this page a bit and most notably added the first paragraphs on settings re-arangement
17:09:23  <planetmaker> Purpose is to try split down the task into smaller tasks which preferentially also could be addressed independently
17:09:40  <planetmaker> But to also give an idea what to think about when addressing one of the issues
17:37:15  <Zuu> planetmaker: Below "AI settings" there seem to be a borken heading.
17:38:44  <planetmaker> indeed, thx
17:45:15  *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r24622 || Logs: || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking"
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17:51:18  <frosch123> evening :)
17:52:38  <planetmaker> hi frosch123 :-) I had a bit of a go at
17:53:03  <planetmaker> I didn't want to put all that on our todo page (yet)
17:53:54  *** Alberth has joined
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17:56:04  <planetmaker> hi Alberth  :-) I had a bit of a go at
17:56:15  <planetmaker> (I'm starting to repeat myself :D )
17:57:03  <Alberth> :D
17:57:56  * Alberth misses the link to the FS by hackalittlebit
17:58:55  <planetmaker> good point. Do you know it (or its title)?
17:59:18  <Alberth> I am not even sure you want to touch "Window Re-arangement" at all, it's a very deep can of worms
17:59:35  <frosch123> planetmaker: <- i assume the <ref name="vehicle"/> stuff can all be removed?
18:00:18  <Alberth> FS#5147 - Consistent window style
18:00:40  <planetmaker> uh, there's still vehicle, frosch123 ? I thought I changed all to "local"?
18:01:13  <planetmaker> oh, yes. Forgot to remove those two. Yes, frosch123
18:01:18  <planetmaker> thanks, Alberth
18:01:33  <Alberth> yw :)
18:01:44  <frosch123> planetmaker: i just wondered about the big red error message at the bottom :p
18:03:06  <frosch123> planetmaker: the difficulty profile setting is more important for ai/gs, less for newgrf (only ecs)
18:04:16  <frosch123> i don't think splitting user/map/company settings is feasible
18:04:22  <frosch123> i would rather add filters to the tree
18:05:29  <frosch123> but even then i don't see why one would want to distinguish them...
18:05:45  <frosch123> what is the goal of separating map and user settings?
18:05:51  <planetmaker> hm, yes. Care to formulate that? You can better write what you think than I ;-)
18:06:02  <planetmaker> separating map and user settings... we have game options
18:06:26  <frosch123> well, i assume we are talking about different things then :p
18:06:26  <planetmaker> game options could become a general user settings. To set sound, music, base graphics, UI behaviour. Possibly UI size
18:06:49  <planetmaker> And in another part of it maybe also signal density, signal type date or so
18:06:58  <planetmaker> (i.e. the UI part of the adv. settings)
18:07:04  <planetmaker> but... I'm not sold on moving that)
18:07:25  <frosch123> planetmaker: yes, signals is a good example
18:07:38  <frosch123> if you look at current adv. settings there is a subtree for signal settings
18:07:43  <Alberth> the only thing I can sensibly see as something to distinguish is the set options stored versus not stored in a game
18:07:46  <frosch123> some of them are client, some company, some savegame settings
18:08:02  <frosch123> i don't think it makes any sense to split them, they feel correct in a "signal" category to me
18:08:16  <frosch123> i don't understand the intention of splitting client and savegame settings
18:08:35  <planetmaker> well. It makes sense for configuring new games
18:08:45  <planetmaker> but filtering serves the same purpose
18:09:12  <planetmaker> and might serve (much) more versatile
18:09:34  <Alberth> I have no idea what option is stored and what not in a game. Some form of distinguishing would however be fine, eg some marker somewhere
18:09:58  <Alberth> filtering is the only way to make it work for many, imho
18:10:16  <Yexo> good evening
18:10:21  <Alberth> evenink
18:10:27  <planetmaker> good evening Yexo :-)
18:11:03  <frosch123> Alberth: we already have a hint in the adv. settings help page
18:11:25  <Alberth> frosch123: what are you doing wrt filters, have a 'visible' flag attached to each option?
18:11:44  <frosch123> kind of
18:11:51  <frosch123> leafs have a filter state
18:12:03  <Alberth> frosch123: oh, must read that then,  maybe I can learn to remember :)
18:12:11  <frosch123> branch nodes are shown only if at least one child is shown
18:12:19  <Alberth> nice
18:12:30  <frosch123> if the branch node name is hit by the text filter, it will force all childs to be shown
18:13:40  <Yexo> will it be possible to have multiple filters at the same time?
18:13:54  <Yexo> ie text filter and "basic" filter?
18:13:55  <frosch123> the string filters behave different to other filters
18:14:13  <frosch123> yes, i want dropdown filters and a text filter
18:14:24  <frosch123> the text filter has the same multi word search as in other places
18:14:33  <planetmaker> I modified the page a bit now. Anyone please feel free to amend / change / ... :-)
18:14:42  <frosch123> the text filter will likely scan the setting name, the branch node name and the help texts
18:15:08  <planetmaker> wrt map / user / newgame / ingame settings: those could possibly be done by extra buttons which can be checked independently. Makes sense IMHO
18:15:58  <Alberth> planetmaker: I just wanted an indication :p
18:16:18  <planetmaker> we have the indication partially(?) in the helptext
18:16:29  <planetmaker> but... I'd like a clearer one. without clicking a setting
18:16:44  <frosch123> i am still looking for an idea, when to trigger the "expand all" automatically
18:17:11  <frosch123> something like, "if the filter restricts the settings to such a low number, that all fit on one page, auto expand all"
18:17:19  <frosch123> but i am not sure when to auto collapse again
18:17:45  <planetmaker> oh, auto-expand/collapse on such condition
18:18:33  <frosch123> <- well, when you open the window, the cursor is in the text filter
18:18:48  <frosch123> you then want to type in a filter term, and then you want to see the resutls
18:19:05  <frosch123> moving the mouse from the top of the editbox to the bottom to the expand buttons, feels bad
18:19:53  <planetmaker> hm.... expand all when using the search button. Always, I'd say
18:20:13  <frosch123> yeah, but what shall happen when the user clicks the minus button then?
18:20:22  <frosch123> revert whenever changing the text string again?
18:20:30  <planetmaker> collaps that one. And ^^
18:21:04  <Alberth> auto expand on every change is the easiest to explain imho
18:21:06  <frosch123> also "collapse all" when emptying the filter box?
18:21:21  <planetmaker> I don't think it should auto-collapse then
18:21:21  <frosch123> i.e. collapse all on disabling filtering?
18:21:42  <frosch123> it feels weird to insert a single char, hit backspace, and then everything is expanded :p
18:22:13  <planetmaker> oh, it expands automatically, not when I press 'enter'?
18:22:22  <frosch123> "enter" might also be an option
18:22:23  <Alberth> it's the only sane option imho, the fully expanded list is useless when you have all options
18:23:03  <Alberth> you can collapse when above some treshold
18:23:32  <frosch123> so, expand when changing the filterterm and all hits can be shown
18:23:34  <planetmaker> honestly, not sure I like auto-collaps. When I (re)view settings, I want to see them ;-)
18:23:42  <frosch123> collaps when changing the filtererm and not all hits can be shown?
18:24:17  <Alberth> yeah, but 1 line too few looks so silly too
18:24:36  <Alberth> you could do 2 screens of settings or so as tresholds
18:24:45  <Alberth> s/s$/s/
18:25:01  <planetmaker> but... what's the reason to not show all settings and keep it collapsed?
18:25:13  <planetmaker> the user then will click all + icons to actually see the filter results
18:25:28  <frosch123> planetmaker: that's like opening the window with everything expanded
18:25:40  <planetmaker> frosch123, yup. Would find it useful ;-)
18:25:48  <planetmaker> I rather scroll
18:25:59  <Alberth> easy selection of a section further down is the main reason not to expand all
18:26:29  <Alberth> makes you wonder whether the tree is useful at all :p
18:26:39  <frosch123> well, filtering is more modern :p
18:26:46  <planetmaker> Alberth, by default often the then expanded view doesn't fit the window either. So I have to scroll anyway
18:27:00  <planetmaker> little gain there, I think. I could scroll right away to the proper place in those cases
18:27:46  <frosch123> ok, maybe something like this: expand all only once when typing the first char into the box
18:27:51  <Alberth> if only we could right-click on scrollbars to go to that position :p
18:28:05  <frosch123> after that allow expanding/collapsing manually, but never do it automatically again
18:28:20  <planetmaker> frosch123, so when I unfilter, I have to click 'expand all' to set the one setting I didn't filter for?
18:28:29  <frosch123> that allows both, navigating without using the filter, and keeping user-expansion/collapsion while changing the filter
18:28:30  <planetmaker> oh, sorry
18:28:45  <planetmaker> yes, that's what I'd like :-)
18:29:47  <Alberth> make planetmaker happy then :)
18:30:05  <planetmaker> :D of course I only defend the way *I* use the adv. settings ;-)
18:30:44  <Alberth> the filter functionality itself is much more important imho, if the list is too long type more words :)
18:30:45  <frosch123> i am working as software developer, i am all for lame compromises :p
18:30:59  <planetmaker> haha :-)
18:31:24  <frosch123> it's totally inconsistent, but it fits all typical usecases
18:32:36  <planetmaker> hm, I like consistency, but... yes :-)
18:32:45  <planetmaker> I guess I'm not consistent myself :-P
18:32:48  <planetmaker> how lame
18:33:30  <Alberth> it's normal human behavior :p
18:37:50  <Zuu> I'm thinking about committing my GS industry patch. IIRC there was no further comments (other than to be explicit in the changelog, which is fixed in v6 of the patch: )
18:41:43  <frosch123> hmm, did we stop sorting the changelog alphabetically?
18:42:26  <frosch123> for 1.3 it all seems to be by date, while for 1.2 and older it is alphabetical
18:42:39  <Zuu> I had no idea it was alphabetically and assumed new entries was added to the bottom.
18:43:02  <frosch123> maybe it's different for game an ai :p
18:44:10  <Alberth> yeah, let's have different policies to confuse everybody :)
18:44:22  * planetmaker would intuitively sort by whatever categories I could find ;-)
18:44:51  <Zuu> Well, it's sorted, but by date :-)
18:56:21  *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r24623 || Logs: || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking"
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20:53:07  <frosch123> planetmaker: expanded on the gui page
21:18:09  <planetmaker> ah, nice :-)
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