Log for on 4th November 2012:
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11:38:33  <Eagle_Rainbow> Hello everyone
11:41:52  <Eagle_Rainbow> frosch123, I think I got something done on the GUI arrangement / settings category thingy.
11:42:17  <Eagle_Rainbow> How do you like it to have a first look on it?
11:42:34  <frosch123> do you have some kind of diff? or something else?
11:42:38  <Eagle_Rainbow> should I create a new post in the forum, or reuse the existing one (which hasn't much to do it)
11:42:46  <Eagle_Rainbow> diff file
11:42:50  <frosch123> you can also use flyspray
11:43:06  <Eagle_Rainbow> Too many options :)
11:43:25  <Eagle_Rainbow> you prefer flyspray?
11:43:31  <frosch123> the question is, whether it is only a coding discussion, or whether you want to make the whole forum participate
11:44:01  <frosch123> but i would think that fs is enough
11:44:07  <Eagle_Rainbow> coding isn't that much the problem, I would say... it's more about the content (which setting goes to which category)
11:44:15  <Eagle_Rainbow> ok, then it's fs
11:44:20  <frosch123> classifying settings is not something i would trust the forums with :p
11:44:45  <frosch123> everyone would claim their favorite settings to be basic, while everything they don't know to be expert :p
11:45:08  <Eagle_Rainbow> and advanced would be empty then? :)
11:45:31  <planetmaker> :-)
11:45:47  <planetmaker> ask 2 people to get 3 opinion about the proper distinctions ;-)
11:45:54  <planetmaker> I can give you 3 alone, if you like :-P
11:45:58  <frosch123> with the help texts, someone gave it a start, and then everyone who liked gave counter proposals for some of the settings
11:46:10  <frosch123> then we discussed those with multiple proposals
11:46:31  <Eagle_Rainbow> well, if the discussion is being done in the Wiki automatically, I would find that productive...
11:46:52  <Eagle_Rainbow> (when the ottd developers having the final call)
11:47:07  <frosch123> i thought half of people cannot log in to the wiki :p
11:47:32  <Eagle_Rainbow> well, that's true belong to that half of the world :-|
11:53:16  <Eagle_Rainbow> Here's the FS entry:
11:55:05  <Eagle_Rainbow> and BTW I'd be glad if someone could have a look at the patch on swapping out the player's name edit box at as well...
11:56:23  * Eagle_Rainbow would like to go to the network filter list then thereafter, but the player's name edit box is prerequisite for that.
11:57:01  <Yexo> not sure how it works in git, but with hg you can create patch queues
11:57:10  <Yexo> ie you "commit" the patch you have and create another one on top of it
11:57:16  <Yexo> than you can show us two patches at ones
11:58:06  <Eagle_Rainbow> I already have multiple branches (one for the edit box, the other for the filter stuff), but I'd like to have the player's name first...
11:58:20  <Yexo> +cat      = SC_EXPERT is not required for every item if you've already set it to be the default
11:58:32  <Eagle_Rainbow> ?
11:58:41  * Eagle_Rainbow is looking as well
11:58:56  <Eagle_Rainbow> ah... that you mean...
11:58:58  <Yexo> everything you put in [defaults] is copied to every item that doesn't have that as key
11:59:00  <frosch123> Yexo: but that makes it harder to review the categorisation
11:59:01  <Eagle_Rainbow> yes, I know...
11:59:18  <Eagle_Rainbow> exactly, the idea was to document that I have made a call on that setting
11:59:28  <Yexo> ok, that's fien
11:59:46  <frosch123> though it is actually harder to see it from the diff than i hoped
11:59:55  <Yexo> it's still too hard to review like this, since often the comapny name is not in the same chunk as the category
12:00:15  <Eagle_Rainbow> well, I already expanded it to -U5 lines on diff to make it easier
12:00:17  <frosch123> it was so easy with the help texts :) so i thought that would work here as well :(
12:00:39  <Eagle_Rainbow> I can increase the context lines even further, if that helps...
12:00:44  <Yexo> yes, it would
12:01:10  * Eagle_Rainbow is working on it
12:02:16  <Eagle_Rainbow> here we go, FS entry is updated
12:02:36  <Yexo> screenshot_format / savegame_format: why the inconsistency? Either both should be advanced or both expert, imo the latter
12:03:13  <Eagle_Rainbow> That's why I called it "first shot" :) Working alone on such a thing, you'll never notice those things...
12:03:16  * Eagle_Rainbow will update it
12:03:42  <Yexo> invisibility_options / transparency_options: while neither of them are in the advanced settings gui, same as above. I think both should be basic
12:03:56  <Yexo> keyboard/keyboard_case should be expert
12:05:21  <Yexo> construction.command_pause_level could be expert I think
12:05:35  <Yexo> autoslope also
12:05:51  <frosch123> i would put "pause level" in advanced
12:06:07  <frosch123> it seems quite commonly used/asked for
12:06:19  <Yexo> ok, I wasn't so sure about that one
12:06:19  <Eagle_Rainbow> done all requests locally here...
12:06:46  <Yexo> train/roadveh _slope_steepness / acceleration model?
12:06:56  <planetmaker> autoslope do we need that at all?
12:06:57  <Yexo> currently on advanced, I think I'd put them on expert
12:07:19  <frosch123> steepness might expert
12:07:26  <frosch123> model sounds like advanced to me
12:07:35  <Eagle_Rainbow> Why this "inconsitency"? :)
12:07:45  <frosch123> :p
12:07:51  <Yexo> they have a different meaning
12:08:03  <Yexo> lot's of people switch from original to the "realistic" model
12:08:14  <Yexo> but not as many people understand what the slope steepness does
12:08:27  <Yexo> forbid_90_deg?
12:08:42  <planetmaker> expert
12:08:59  <Yexo> the default is false
12:10:11  <Eagle_Rainbow> train/roadveh _slope_steepness is now to expert and acceleration model is now with advanced
12:10:47  <Yexo> order.serviceathelipad? Does anyone change that? could be at expert imo
12:11:04  <Yexo> order.gradual_loading too perhaps
12:11:05  <frosch123> what's the default?
12:11:13  <Yexo> true and true
12:11:14  <frosch123> gradual loading is expert, definitely
12:12:08  <Eagle_Rainbow> what about the helipad?
12:12:28  * Eagle_Rainbow is up to date with all other changes locally (not commited yet)
12:13:51  <frosch123> expert likely
12:14:02  <Eagle_Rainbow> switched to expert then
12:14:09  <Yexo> snow_line_height could be basic
12:14:20  <Eagle_Rainbow> done
12:14:28  <frosch123> it's in a different window anyway :p
12:14:45  <Yexo> yes, but if we're going to category all then let's do it properly
12:15:03  <Yexo> economy.allow_shares to advanced instead of basic?
12:15:42  <Eagle_Rainbow> well, my thought on basic always was: could a new player who doesn't know much about the game, understand what this means?
12:15:53  <planetmaker> depends on the default, Yexo ;-)
12:16:04  <Yexo> default is false, which is imo ok
12:16:10  <planetmaker> then advanced
12:16:24  <Eagle_Rainbow> allow_shares => advanced
12:16:42  <Yexo> Eagle_Rainbow: "buying shares" is not obvious to new players, there are limitations in multiplayer and others too, like that you can only buy shares after the company has existed for 6 years
12:17:03  <Eagle_Rainbow> that's a reason then...
12:17:08  <Yexo> so while my thought is the same as yours, I figured this one is not as obvious for new players
12:18:23  <Yexo> unrelated to this patch: should the advanced settings window remember the filter which was used last time it opened?
12:18:37  <Yexo> so that if you swtich to expert, open it again  it opens on expert?
12:19:06  <Yexo> actually two questions: should it remember it while the game is running (imo yes) and should it remember it between games, so in the config file (imo not necessary)
12:20:16  <Eagle_Rainbow> imo: game running, yes -- config file, no
12:21:27  <frosch123> what should it remember?
12:21:34  <frosch123> only basic/adv/expert? or also deviations?
12:21:41  <Yexo> only basic/adv/expert
12:22:01  <frosch123> so, the last used one of those
12:22:10  <frosch123> game starts with "basic"?
12:22:11  <Eagle_Rainbow> but that sounds a bit strange, isn't it?
12:22:20  <Yexo> switch to advanced -> switch to deviation -> close window -> open window -> open on advanced
12:23:53  <Eagle_Rainbow> so only storing the SettingCategory and not the DDB state...
12:25:06  <frosch123> i prefer consistency here. in the other windows we do not save filters either
12:25:26  <Eagle_Rainbow> and what's the default then, when you open the window initially?
12:25:31  <frosch123> (string filters and such)
12:25:55  <frosch123> the default is definitely "basic"
12:26:07  <frosch123> if that is unusable, it needs to go to the config
12:26:23  <frosch123> but novice players need to get "basic", else there is no point in that category :p
12:27:00  <Eagle_Rainbow> don't you fear that advanced players will start cursing if they always have to switch it?
12:27:18  <frosch123> config file also sounds fine to me
12:27:40  <frosch123> but "deviations" is more on a level like "string filters"
12:28:29  <Eagle_Rainbow> If that is something different, shouldn't we also not provide two distinct DDBs?
12:28:47  <frosch123> no, noone wants to see deviations of only basic settings :p
12:28:57  <Eagle_Rainbow> I could think of them being orthogonal on each other...
12:29:14  <frosch123> however, if a players wants to compare settings, it might also make sense to save the deviation filters
12:29:43  <Eagle_Rainbow> so, it would be config with the last state of the DDB (incl. deviations)
12:30:44  <Eagle_Rainbow> BTW: Any further requests on different categories for settings?
12:30:49  <Yexo> comparing with the defaults is something you do "once", not multiple times soon after eachother
12:31:01  <Yexo> the level of settings you want to see if much more static
12:31:26  <Yexo> on the other hand: this means that you only have to change it back once if it remembers the deviations too
12:31:55  <Yexo> Eagle_Rainbow: I'd like to see a diff with U8 / U10 so I can see all settings
12:31:55  <Eagle_Rainbow> Which I think it's ok, because I have left the screen with that state I know...
12:32:00  <frosch123> both has usecases :p you might also want to look at multiple saves to compare the settings
12:32:07  <Eagle_Rainbow> Yexo: It's already U10 :)
12:32:10  <frosch123> imo the only reasoning here is consistency
12:32:24  <frosch123> and remembering all dropdown states might be more intuitive
12:32:25  <Eagle_Rainbow> How much do you want? :p
12:32:31  <Yexo> Eagle_Rainbow: I didn't see the second patch yet
12:32:44  <Yexo> in that case could you upload a enw one with the already done changes in it?
12:32:54  <Yexo> frosch123: yes, that's fine with me
12:32:54  <Eagle_Rainbow> gimme a minute
12:33:55  <Eagle_Rainbow> Third version is uploaded...
12:34:22  <Eagle_Rainbow> on DDB persistency, it's config with all states now, right?
12:35:24  <Yexo> yes
12:42:41  <Eagle_Rainbow> As I have to leave now for a couple of hours, please feel free to add further change requests on categorization here -- I will have a look into the logs once I am back.
12:43:11  <frosch123> bye, have fun :)
12:43:12  <Eagle_Rainbow> Concerning remembering the state of the DDB in the adv. setting screen, I would have a look there, too, which I would try to squeeze into a distinct patch...
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13:19:25  <Zuu> planetmaker: I thought that the forbid_90_deg setting is something the average forum user is aware of and usually want to have on. Thus should go into advanced rather than expert?
13:21:01  <Zuu> The motivation to push it to expert could be that users not aware of it will run into problems if they accidently turn it on.
13:24:04  <planetmaker> Zuu, I still argue for "forbid 90° = true" as default. And then expert. But yes, it's still "false" iirc, thus advanced makes sense
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19:24:15  <Eagle_Rainbow> Rehi, what's the trick, which I don't know, allowing to remove your name of "Assigned to" in FS?
19:36:47  <Yexo> you don't have the rights to do that
19:39:59  <Eagle_Rainbow> ok, that's at least an answer - I had assigned FS#5356 to myself, as I wanted to work on the patch there and took it to my name; now the patch is there, but I can put it back to you all, for processing it .-|
19:41:02  <Eagle_Rainbow> BTW: I just got the problems again with GIT not being updated - I couldn't see r24662. However, I found out that I was using http://git... instead of git://git.... With the latter, the revision was there
19:42:40  <Yexo> probably some caching somewhere, hard to tell
19:43:08  <Yexo> wrt assigning FS tasks: we hardly use that, it doesn't really matter if it's still assigned to you or not
19:45:18  <Eagle_Rainbow> ok, you can't change the type and other things in FS, if it's not assigned to yourself
19:49:11  <Yexo> again: hardly used
19:49:43  <Eagle_Rainbow> got it...
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20:10:17  <frosch123> sadly there is no "remove assignment" role, there are only way more powerful options
20:11:05  <Eagle_Rainbow> it's ok :) I can live with it having the stuff on my name... I was only worried having it on my name, and other's might think that I still have to do something.
20:11:19  <Eagle_Rainbow> But that was clarified by Yexo already...
20:13:29  <michi_cc> Yeah, it seems there is only a "Edit assignments" permissions, and that would be a bit too broad ;)
20:15:36  <michi_cc> Eagle_Rainbow: I added you to the "Regular patchers" usergroup earlier BTW, in theory you should be able to edit tasks you created (even if you are not assigned to it).
20:17:31  <Eagle_Rainbow> michi_cc: thanks; I will check and provide feedback
20:18:30  <michi_cc> I could remove you from the assigment list if you want, but yeah, nobody cares about that anyway :)
20:18:59  <Eagle_Rainbow> do, if you like; from where I come from, they really really care hard on the name ;)
20:19:15  <Eagle_Rainbow> so, I might be a bit biased here ;)
20:22:14  <Eagle_Rainbow> michi_cc: nope, doesn't work: 5356 is no longer assigned to my name. Still I can't edit the task - only the comments which I made...
20:22:59  <michi_cc> If there are a lot more active developers/commiters it might become necessary, but OTTD is small enough that it would be just needless bureaucracy. We don't care about votes either, BTW :)
20:23:28  <Eagle_Rainbow> which might draw the flame wars on you :p
20:24:08  <michi_cc> Too bad :( Looks like "Modify own tasks" really only applies to assigned tasks then.
20:24:59  <Eagle_Rainbow> now, you know that :) -- for me it's ok...
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