Log for on 11th February 2013:
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14:21:28  <Belugas> hello
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18:27:49  <frosch123> :)
18:29:07  <Alberth> ?
18:29:28  <frosch123> it is hidden good enough? :p
18:30:46  * Alberth guesses it is
18:31:24  <frosch123> ok, the question is where the engine is and where it should be considering loading indicator and vehicle gui
18:32:47  <Rubidium> based on the loading indicator and vehicle gui it's at the 'last' wagon
18:32:56  <planetmaker> oh, indeed well hidden, frosch123 :-)
18:33:08  <planetmaker> IMHO it should be at the engine
18:33:09  <frosch123> <- that would have been too easy
18:47:35  *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r24988 || Logs: || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking"
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19:43:15  <LordAro> wait, is that reversing trains?
19:45:55  <frosch123> no, that's exactly what it is not :p
19:49:27  <LordAro> so what is it then? :L
19:49:48  <frosch123> backward driving trains
19:52:11  <LordAro> what would be the point of that? :L
20:01:45  * planetmaker presumes a feature commonly referred to as "shunting" ;-)
20:02:41  <frosch123> that nonsense? no
20:02:51  <frosch123> i just meant that reversing is what ottd does normally
20:02:57  <frosch123> and this is about not reversing
20:03:22  <planetmaker> yes... :-)
20:03:49  <LordAro> so... what is it? :P
20:07:31  <frosch123> it's about stopping snail bothering me about silly feature requests
20:07:40  <frosch123> which make no sense at all when doing it properly
20:07:53  <frosch123> in the first place
20:08:01  <planetmaker> :-)
20:08:53  * LordAro is still none the wiser :L
20:09:00  <Rubidium> is that going to be your first 1.4 feature?
20:11:13  <frosch123> i guess so
20:11:21  <frosch123> 1.3 is unlikely
20:11:38  <frosch123> i need the same savegame bump as peter
20:11:40  <frosch123> and another one
20:12:07  <frosch123> and i need a spec when driving backwards is disallowed
20:12:13  <frosch123> and only reversing can be done
20:12:31  <frosch123> but i guess it might be wise to put some codechanges into 1.3 to reduce the branch diff
20:12:57  <Rubidium> that'll grow pretty quickly anyhow
20:13:26  <Rubidium> so, unless they are fairly trivial you'd only make it more likely to introduce bugs into 1.3
20:13:41  <frosch123> it's about renaming function parameters
20:13:45  <LordAro> *features
20:13:55  <frosch123> "@param v vehicle" just does not cut it anymore :p
20:14:35  <Rubidium> frosch123: oh, yes... those would be fairly trivial
20:14:52  <Rubidium> though that means r25k = branch won't hold
20:15:31  <Rubidium> ah well, still waiting on peter1138 for his fix anyhow, and if he isn't on time that won't work either
20:16:12  <planetmaker> what kind of fix?
20:17:19  <Rubidium> the service interval fix (=savegame bump, so doing it after branch is nasty)
20:17:35  <planetmaker> aye, yes
20:32:16  <michi_cc> frosch123: Simple idea for deciding when driving backward is allowed: Each engine/wagon gets the following flags: Can lead and push-pull allowed. A train can drive backward if the (originally) front vehicle allows push-pull and the last vehicle can lead (i.e. has a cab). By default the only engines that get these flags are double-headed engines which is quite compatible with the original vehicles.
20:33:13  <frosch123> i don't think a "cab" flag works
20:33:23  <frosch123> the first vehicle has to be an engine
20:33:39  <frosch123> else you screw with the complete train consist/free wagon design
20:33:55  <frosch123> so, if a newgrf provides cab cars, they must be engines
20:34:22  <frosch123> currently i consider adding flags for "can drive backwards" and "can power backwards"
20:34:50  <michi_cc> frosch123: If you want push-pull to also have an effect when using only original vehicles: Each engine gets a turn-around time, and the minimal loading time in a station is defined by the turn-around time unless driving backward is allowed. This way the original vehicle D/EMUs and double headed vehicles get a gameplay bonus for short turn-arounds.
20:36:06  <michi_cc> I'd assumed your implementation simply traverses the vehicle chain from back to front in the motion code, but if you reverse the actual vehicle chain the engine bit is true.
20:36:41  <frosch123> about that i considered extending the (currently bool) reverse in station setting to three values: "never reverse/drive backwards", "do not reverse but drive backwards if possible" and "reverse or drive backwards"
20:37:23  <frosch123> michi_cc: yes, the consist is unchanged; instead the last vehicle is the origin for path finding and vehicle gui, and entering stations and such
20:38:10  <frosch123> anyway, i will likely do a forum post asking for suggestions about what to do with default vehicles and newgrfs
20:39:24  <michi_cc> Then you probably misunderstood my cab flag. The cab flag wasn't meant as a replacement for the front engine but simply a way to indicate if a non-engine can be the first vehicle in driving direction. In the depot view the very first vehicle would still always be an engine.
20:44:14  <michi_cc> My current opinion is "screw gameplay options, especially if they default to off", even if I'm just as guilty in introducing them myself in the past (infrastructure maintenance...). Either a feature is a sensible addition to gameplay (so what if a consist of non-push-pull default engine + one wagon takes longer to load than before? At least dual-headed default vehicles get a purpose), then it should be default on, or it is bad for gameplay, th
20:44:15  <michi_cc> en why include it at all. A default off option mostly just means nobody will ever find it.
20:45:24  <frosch123> michi_cc: can you imagine how coop people ranted at me when i posted a nocargoal game with reversing in stations enabled?
20:45:39  <frosch123> they were unable to build stations
20:45:56  <frosch123> (or was it the other settings value, inversed?)
20:46:24  <frosch123> ofc, the drive through / reverse in drive through station could also be moved to orders
20:46:25  <michi_cc> An order list addition would make more sense (even if the order list is already very cluttered) because it allows handling for e.g. historic steam engines that have different driving speeds per direction.
20:47:09  <michi_cc> At least make it a default on setting.
20:49:11  <michi_cc> Infrastructure maintenance should have been one as well, but in the end I didn't do it because nobody during testing (up to today actually) ever bothered enough to report some real numbers from games played differently than myself. So basically default off becasue of ENODATA :(
20:51:29  <frosch123> <- anyway, please try to break it :p
21:03:23  <planetmaker> <frosch123> ofc, the drive through / reverse in drive through station could also be moved to orders <-- hm, that's an interesting thought
21:09:42  <frosch123> planetmaker: at some point we need sub-orders
21:09:47  <frosch123> some small cisc programs or so
21:10:36  <frosch123> a loading order needs to consist of multiple stop-at, unload/transfer-cargo, conditonal, refit, load-cargo, reverse orders :p
21:12:41  <Alberth> upload a newgrf with your orders :p
21:15:57  <planetmaker> he :D
21:40:53  <frosch123> night
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