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06:47:09 *** Zuu has joined #openttd.dev 06:47:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Zuu 07:17:15 *** Zuu has quit IRC 07:52:08 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 10:05:45 *** Ristovski has joined #openttd.dev 10:38:56 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd.dev 10:38:56 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v frosch123 10:47:10 <frosch123> planetmaker: for ottd you could make the spritenumber of the first coast sprite avaialble via actiond 10:47:15 <frosch123> similiar to the 2cc remaps 10:47:29 <frosch123> (will only work in ottd though, not possible for ttdp, if you care :p ) 10:52:16 <frosch123> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2268/ <- basically that 10:53:27 <planetmaker> frosch123, but how does that work with base sets? They have the sprites in the base grf and 10 in the extra grf? 10:53:38 <frosch123> nope 10:53:45 <frosch123> you are underestimating the magic that ottd does :p 10:53:57 <planetmaker> likely :-) 10:54:11 <planetmaker> frosch123, can we make that approach you pasted more generic? So that it takes a parameter 10:54:17 <frosch123> for ottd the shores and foundations are always in the same spot (though they are moved when you add new gui sprites)= 10:54:18 <planetmaker> which indicates the action5 set 10:54:25 <planetmaker> or which allows adding further? 10:54:36 <frosch123> it does not make a lot of sense for other action5 sets 10:54:46 <planetmaker> tram sprites 10:54:47 <frosch123> i just took those which make sense, and would rather hide others 10:54:49 <planetmaker> etc 10:55:01 <frosch123> planetmaker: so we can never change tram sprites again? 10:55:07 <frosch123> good luck with road types :p 10:55:11 <planetmaker> yes, no need to expose all. But so that we don't add a separate var for each? 10:55:19 <frosch123> i already wonder about exposing the foundatin graphhics 10:55:51 <frosch123> if we would include slope information in tile layouts, ottd could draw the proper foundations itself 10:56:10 <frosch123> planetmaker: we already have a var for 2cc, and i don't see we would get mroe 10:56:25 <frosch123> and there is currently no method for a parameterised action d variable 10:56:56 <planetmaker> well, yes. The terrain sprites are needed as reference often 10:57:05 <planetmaker> so that's most important 10:57:17 <planetmaker> foundations... dunno... I really haven#t thought about them 10:58:03 <frosch123> http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/New_Results#CB_30.2F14E.2F150:_Decide_drawing_foundations <- well, i thought about industries, objects, and houses 10:58:37 <frosch123> foundations are quite complicated to use for newgrf 10:58:45 <frosch123> because the Z position varies in layouts 10:59:02 <frosch123> so, maybe we should skip them, and only expose the shore base then? :) 10:59:35 <frosch123> i don't see anyone using the foundations sprites, except in a fixed slope configuration 10:59:42 <frosch123> but well, maybe that is reason enough 11:00:40 <planetmaker> well, One might want to use them in terraced multi-tile house or industry :-) 11:01:13 <frosch123> well, using the default foundations might be better than drawing custom ones :p 11:01:35 <planetmaker> default foundations or default foundation sprites? :-) 11:03:27 <planetmaker> interesting... I don't recall reading the wiki page you linked :-) 11:03:54 <planetmaker> I might have, but probably forgot :-) 11:05:02 <planetmaker> And if we use separate variables like you suggest, we can of course always add foundations sprite offset later in another var 11:05:28 <planetmaker> having the shore sprite offset for now would suffice for me. And likely to the guy in that thread, too 11:06:46 <frosch123> well, in other cases we added the magic to the tile layout drawing 11:07:08 <frosch123> i.e. if you use the plain water tile in a sprite layout, ottd will add canal/river borders to it 11:07:22 <frosch123> we just never had a good idea how to do that with shores 11:07:44 <frosch123> esp. because the shore detection is so complicated, when the shore is inside the industry .p 11:07:46 <planetmaker> hu? 11:08:21 <frosch123> what hu? 11:08:53 <planetmaker> you mean... if I take an industry. How do I make it a water tile? 11:09:00 <planetmaker> or you mean to leave a gap in the layout? 11:09:06 <planetmaker> *tile layout 11:09:12 <frosch123> no, a industry you build on water 11:09:18 <frosch123> like firs harbour 11:09:20 <frosch123> or oilrig 11:09:23 <frosch123> fishing grounds 11:09:32 <planetmaker> yeah. but they have no river banks? 11:09:40 <frosch123> the newgrf draws the plain water sprite 11:09:50 <frosch123> ottd catches that case and turns it into drawing the river or canal water 11:09:52 <planetmaker> that's a plain flat terrain tile 11:09:54 <frosch123> instead of the sea water 11:09:57 <frosch123> including the borders 11:10:23 <planetmaker> sorry... I miss something. How does an industry draw a plain water tile? 11:10:37 <planetmaker> I can reference the sprite just fine. but that doesn#t make it water 11:10:42 <frosch123> it just puts the default ttd sprite number in the ground sprite 11:11:01 <planetmaker> but... no borders are drawn then? 11:11:16 <frosch123> ottd catches that case and does something different 11:11:48 <planetmaker> uh... then ogfx-landscape wind mills on water should have river / canal borders 11:11:57 <frosch123> see IndustryDrawTileLayout 11:12:00 <planetmaker> or is an additional requirement that there's no child sprite or building? 11:12:11 <frosch123> it must be the first ground sprite 11:12:15 <frosch123> not some additional ground sprite 11:13:23 <planetmaker> uh... that's weired magic in that place 11:13:31 <planetmaker> and tbh I've never seen it kick in 11:13:42 <frosch123> it works for default industries 11:13:45 <frosch123> at least it used to work :p 11:14:33 <planetmaker> ah... so I'll only see a difference, if is a river or canal water tile 11:14:40 <planetmaker> as sea tiles have no border. hm... 11:14:51 <frosch123> well, obviously :p 11:15:00 <planetmaker> I guess I never saw that case. Need to check 11:15:29 <planetmaker> But why do we do so only for flat tiles? 11:15:33 <planetmaker> why not for sloped? 11:15:40 <frosch123> tell me how to do it for slopes :p 11:15:42 <planetmaker> like for coasts? 11:15:48 <frosch123> which sprites? 11:15:55 <frosch123> what is coast, what is land? 11:16:09 <frosch123> you do not know what the industry does on the inside 11:16:23 <frosch123> you would have to check whether a neighboured tile would draw a water ground or somiething like that 11:16:44 <frosch123> or you could require the industry to draw the default coast graphics 11:16:50 <frosch123> which you could replace with other ones 11:16:59 <frosch123> but then there are no sprites for the diagonal coasts 11:18:24 <planetmaker> well :-) I generally believe that the best approach to all this would be: always draw the ground as if nothing was on it. Then draw anything on top which the industry / object / house / whatever wants to draw on top 11:18:35 <planetmaker> it then can draw water where there's land or vice versa 11:21:50 <planetmaker> hm... can industries set the water class of a tile? I think not 11:26:34 <frosch123> no, it's whatever it was before 11:26:52 <frosch123> though autoslope might completely break it :p 11:27:16 <frosch123> so, when the industry is removed, it checks whether the waterclass is still possible on the slope/height :p 11:27:31 <planetmaker> :-) 11:27:56 <planetmaker> But generally wouldn't it make sense to draw the world without any objects / houses / industries /... and then those on top? 11:28:08 <planetmaker> It avoids the need for lookup (though they still could)? 11:28:22 <frosch123> well, yeah, it would also fix snow and desert density :p 11:28:30 <planetmaker> yes 11:28:45 <frosch123> but i guess we would need to mess around with the map array for that 11:28:56 <frosch123> and separate the surface stuff from the rest 11:28:59 <planetmaker> snow can be externalized. I think it should 11:29:22 <frosch123> what do you mean with 'externalized' ? 11:29:24 <planetmaker> then we only need two zones or three: desert, grass, rainforest 11:29:29 <planetmaker> by snowline height 11:29:33 <planetmaker> not in map array 11:29:40 <frosch123> ah, that way, yes 11:29:54 <frosch123> i did that once, but never made it work properly :p 11:30:12 <planetmaker> sm4tz or m1chi did so, too, afair 11:30:47 <frosch123> i only did the snow line height thingie 11:31:01 <planetmaker> yes, that's what I mean they did, too :-) 11:31:14 <planetmaker> but... my memory is not know for accurate remembrance ;-) 11:31:18 <planetmaker> *known 11:33:09 <planetmaker> how many bits do we need for landscape description? 8 for height, 2 or 3 for terrain type. 2 or 3 for water class 11:37:49 <planetmaker> 2 water type bits. 11:38:14 <planetmaker> 2 bits tropcial zone 11:38:21 <planetmaker> thus 4 bits for tile description 11:38:31 <planetmaker> density is in some. but in principle can be derived 11:39:04 <planetmaker> both for snow and desert transition. bare ground density is only needed for normal ground tiles, no others 11:42:20 <frosch123> i think that's about what i thought in 2008 or 2009 when i first had the idea to expose shores/foundations via action d :p 11:42:34 <planetmaker> :-) 11:44:32 <planetmaker> so... should we make a new attempt at changing it? :-) 11:44:59 <frosch123> not me, not now :p 11:45:09 <planetmaker> :-) 11:45:57 <planetmaker> but... half of http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2268/ would bring us further quite a step in some landscape issues :-) 11:46:58 <frosch123> well, it's certainly better than people hardcoding sprite numbers 11:47:07 <frosch123> and then complaining that it breaks when we add a gui sprite :p 11:47:19 <planetmaker> yes. And it indeed solves an issue which I tried to programme around in NewGRFs for some time 11:48:01 <planetmaker> definitely 11:48:10 <frosch123> so, add them anyway? :p 11:49:23 <planetmaker> them? We'd be well off with just the shore base sprite. 11:49:31 <planetmaker> Or did I miss that we have any alternative? 11:49:49 <planetmaker> it would not be a loss even when the ground issue is totally reworked to be always drawn 11:50:41 <planetmaker> I took from the discussion that foundation offset needs maybe another thought, so I'd not add that for now 11:51:51 <frosch123> i think foundations hurt even less 11:52:33 <planetmaker> but shore base doesn't hurt either? Or how can it hurt? 11:52:45 <planetmaker> did I miss that? 12:04:24 <planetmaker> If you don't want to go for it I'll think about your paste tonight, I guess :D 12:35:59 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r25230 || Logs: http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd.dev || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking" 12:45:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: i assign the nml task to you :p 13:00:28 <planetmaker> thanks. done :-) 13:46:34 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r25231 || Logs: http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd.dev || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking" 15:10:52 *** Zuu has joined #openttd.dev 15:10:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Zuu 16:31:04 *** Ristovski has quit IRC 17:35:26 *** Alberth has joined #openttd.dev 17:35:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Alberth 17:42:29 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "OpenTTD Dev Channel || Latest SVN: r25232 || Logs: http://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd.dev || Voice (talk-right) upon request via #openttd; make sure you are registered to NickServ before asking" 19:09:49 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd.dev 20:15:29 *** Zuu has quit IRC 20:18:24 *** Zuu has joined #openttd.dev 20:18:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Zuu 20:25:21 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 21:04:48 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:08:31 *** Alberth has left #openttd.dev 23:10:46 *** Zuu has quit IRC