Log for #openttdcoop on 22nd May 2012:
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00:29:00  <BiG_MeEcH> hi
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00:53:30  <Locomotor> hee is there a admin availeble ppl get getting dc all the time in the stable server how if its a stable what the hel is wrong then
01:21:16  <Locomotor> whe are getting quite alot off DC from the server out
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01:22:23  <Locomotor> lol ok now the server is gone
01:22:57  <Locomotor> hee XeryusTC are you bizzy whit it
01:25:33  <Locomotor> what is wrong whit the stable server i placing somehting and i get kicked for some reason timeout all the time and it aint my internet and firewall isnt it ether
01:33:50  <Locomotor> lol
01:43:03  <BiG_MeEcH> timeout has nothing to do with kick
01:43:20  <BiG_MeEcH> stable is overloaded with shit, and thats why people cant get in
01:44:30  <BiG_MeEcH> and are getting disconnected
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02:45:42  <BiG_MeEcH> hi
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07:29:05  <KyleS> !dl win64
07:29:05  <PublicServer> KyleS:
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07:30:56  <KyleS> !password
07:30:56  <PublicServer> KyleS: taunts
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07:56:31  <Webster> 1 new tweet(s): openttdcoop Post Edited: Next on the list: industries!, 5 seconds ago via #openttdcoop Blog. (204843137317875712)
08:00:44  <Hazzard> !PING
08:00:46  <Hazzard> !ping
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08:00:55  <Hazzard> I see a blog post :D
08:02:42  <V453000> just an update
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09:15:45  <Bassals> chicken poo, pig poo and cow poo?
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12:36:39  <Hazzard> !info
12:36:39  <PublicServer> Hazzard: #:1(Orange) Company Name: 'Company 236'  Year Founded: 2000  Money: 13938160494  Loan: 0  Value: 13945437972  (T:942, R:0, P:0, S:0) unprotected
12:36:50  <Hazzard> reeaally slow game
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14:43:41  <planetmaker> "But honestly, why would you use NUTS and any other train set in one game?" <-- that question made me seriously laugh :-)
14:44:52  <Hazzard> Why would it?
14:45:35  <planetmaker> 640kByte are enough for everyone.
14:45:42  <planetmaker> The world market for computers is about 5
14:45:46  <planetmaker> Same train of thought
14:49:32  <Hazzard> sure, I guess
14:53:45  <planetmaker> thus I think a quite funny convolution of ignorance, vanity and self-assurance and boasts ;-)
14:56:10  <Hazzard> But how many trains could you possibly need
14:56:33  <Hazzard> Anyway...see you later
14:56:36  <planetmaker> wrong question
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14:57:18  <planetmaker> the right question is "how can I provide all types of trains and wagons for all possible kinds of situation, needs, desires and astthetical needs?"
14:57:35  <planetmaker> And there's no answer which involves "this set has it all"
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17:20:46  <V453000> yes I am a terrible person planetmaker, make me care.
17:21:30  <planetmaker> I'd need to care about that in the first place
17:21:59  <V453000> good enough
17:23:09  <Ryton> do all whats good for the world sounds very flower power_like
17:23:33  <planetmaker> But I'm surprised somewhat by the tendency of your replies, V453000, which go in the direction of "I have in my newgrf the solution to all your problems, thus I don#t care about compatibility"
17:23:56  <planetmaker> that saddens me a lot. Especially comming from a cooper
17:24:30  <V453000> well I dont force anyone to use the newgrf
17:24:40  <planetmaker> people *always* want to combine stuff. Whether you consider it sensible or not. someone always has a use
17:24:56  <planetmaker> ofc not... I give up. With that attitude all hope is lost. Case closed
17:25:23  <planetmaker> But that attitude causes unfortunately 99.5% of all newgrf issues
17:25:57  <V453000> which issues?
17:26:23  <planetmaker> combining newgrfs in the fashing the *user* likes. Not the author likes
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17:27:08  <XeryusTC> i prefer what the canadian set does in that case
17:27:23  <XeryusTC> it just disables itself all together with an error message that says that it cant be combined with other sets
17:27:25  <planetmaker> what does it do? Become unavailable everywhere?
17:27:34  <planetmaker> yes, great choice
17:27:34  <XeryusTC> at least in that case it is clear that it can not do it
17:27:43  <XeryusTC> but it is kind of unfortunate that you cant use it at all
17:27:52  <planetmaker> it can do it. It just doesn't want to. And that is stupid
17:28:15  <XeryusTC> well, it is more clear that just working when you attach nuts wagons to another set but not vice versa
17:28:22  <Bassals> !ping
17:28:22  <PublicServer> Bassals: pong
17:28:31  <XeryusTC> that would confuse me big time
17:28:37  <planetmaker> The sensible way would be to issue a warning like "I'm designed to work on my own. Combination with other sets may look funky"
17:28:56  <XeryusTC> that would be most optimal, yes
17:29:05  <planetmaker> XeryusTC: my point. There's no reason to forbid other wagons on NUTS engines or vice versa
17:29:16  <XeryusTC> i agree on that
17:29:31  <planetmaker> and the same applies to *any* train set.
17:29:46  <planetmaker> If the author doesn't like it: so what. If the user doesn't like it: don't combine it
17:29:58  <planetmaker> but why must the author forbid the user to combine it, if he liked it?
17:30:01  <XeryusTC> i do understand that authers dont like it though
17:30:12  <planetmaker> honestly: I don't. Please explain
17:30:27  <V453000> if I put it very simply: I 100% do not care what users think
17:30:37  <V453000> including you
17:30:44  <XeryusTC> because ¨their set¨ would become ruined by someone else´s set
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17:31:19  <XeryusTC> but you are being a hypocrite in this case pm, because openttd also lacks a lot of features that have been asked for time and time again but are still not included
17:32:05  <planetmaker> XeryusTC: I'm not. *Disallowing* combination is *extra work*. Allowing it is easier
17:32:15  <planetmaker> writing *new* features *is much extra work*
17:32:37  <XeryusTC> look at cargod*st, that has been implemented 3 different times, but never put in trunk ;)
17:32:46  <planetmaker> yup. And you know why?
17:32:50  <V453000> for me it is extra work to allow combination as I dont even know how to do that
17:33:22  <planetmaker> V453000: by default every wagon can go with every engine. Everything else... is extra work
17:33:32  <V453000> lol
17:33:38  <XeryusTC> planetmaker: most common reason: the dev team doesnt like the implementation, or it is ¨not up to coding standards¨
17:33:39  <V453000> so monorail engines could go with rail trains?
17:33:42  <V453000> that is just uber dumb
17:33:58  <V453000> wagons/engines, you get the point
17:34:01  <planetmaker> XeryusTC: you think that applies also to the two(!) implementations done by openttd devs themselves?
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17:34:32  <XeryusTC> the former still stands in that case
17:34:38  <planetmaker> V453000: provided that the railtype matches
17:34:44  <planetmaker> XeryusTC: how? No
17:34:57  <V453000> that would just ridiculously break the balance between train classes of nuts
17:35:02  <V453000> which is what the set is based on
17:35:03  <planetmaker> do you know the performance impact of all those types of cargod*st?
17:35:31  <planetmaker> XeryusTC: would you be happy to stop playing on a 512^2 map with 300 trains?
17:35:40  <planetmaker> or 200 trains and 100 RV?
17:36:32  <V453000> isnt that exactly the same thing as with combining some newgrfs? The setting is pretty bad, so we dont provide it?
17:36:51  <XeryusTC> that same logic could apply to PBS, that impacts overal performance by 10+% even if you dont use it..
17:37:08  <planetmaker> not really
17:37:11  <XeryusTC> and why is it then possible to still use the old slow pathfinders?
17:37:18  <XeryusTC> or use ships at all
17:37:29  <XeryusTC> have 20 ships without bouys, game becomes unplayable
17:37:36  <planetmaker> And the old PF are not slow. They're actually very fast. Just also very stupid. And can you use them?
17:37:36  <XeryusTC> so lets just take it out of the game entirely
17:37:57  <planetmaker> And from when does your ship "experience" come from? Current openttd with yapf for ships?
17:38:12  <planetmaker> or just old prejudice?
17:38:45  <XeryusTC> well, then ttd should not have had ships for 17 years but only for the past half year
17:41:27  <planetmaker> 19:36 V453000: isnt that exactly the same thing as with combining some newgrfs? The setting is pretty bad, so we dont provide it? <-- it's not. The available options, they all should "just work". And that includes usually that NewGRFs should behave nice. And people simply expect that they can use vehicle newgrfs alongside eachother
17:41:44  <planetmaker> a reasonable expectation, I think
17:42:16  <V453000> I see ... well, just understand that I just cannot allow for example rail wagons on maglev as it would simply break the whole idea of the set of throughput comparability of all trains
17:42:34  <planetmaker> That's taken care of by the railtype of the vehicles.
17:42:52  <planetmaker> and by which are considered compatible
17:42:55  <V453000> not quite, they are all compatible through the universal railtype
17:42:58  <planetmaker> maglev and rail usually are not
17:43:18  <planetmaker> which is an ugly hack, tbh. And thus destroys exactly this distinction
17:43:37  <V453000> too bad, I prefer sacrificing that for having this hack
17:44:15  <planetmaker> but... if you want all railtypes compatible... isn't it exactly that you want all vehicles run on all tracks?
17:44:16  <V453000> that is just how the set works
17:44:30  <V453000> sure can
17:44:37  <XeryusTC> why not just use one railtype then?
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17:44:38  <V453000> but it doesnt break anything
17:44:48  <V453000> that is boring XeryusTC :p
17:44:52  <planetmaker> exactly... why not use one railtype?
17:44:58  <XeryusTC> but it is exactly the same
17:45:04  <V453000> any vehicle can ohly haul its wagons, they can run anywhere they want
17:45:19  <V453000> well they can only run on their native rail or univ rail
17:45:32  <V453000> so not exactly everyone anywhere
17:45:45  <planetmaker> but... for that you don't need to do that, either
17:45:47  <V453000> and I love how for example monorail tracks look
17:45:55  <planetmaker> if you just have the rail and maglev tracks, for instance
17:46:00  <planetmaker> and rail and maglev wagons
17:46:08  <planetmaker> then the rail wagon can run on rail + univ
17:46:14  <planetmaker> and the maglev on maglev+univ
17:46:19  <V453000> yes
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17:46:24  <planetmaker> but they could attach to all engines on rail or maglev respe.
17:46:33  <planetmaker> no need for any kind of special check
17:46:40  <BiG_MeEcH> hi
17:46:49  <V453000> that doesnt make sense for the set to make any wagon attachable to any engine
17:47:19  <XeryusTC> see the default set...
17:47:19  <V453000> if rail trains go 200 kmh, and mono 300, rail just has to have more capacity than monorail
17:47:24  <V453000> default set is brain dead
17:47:32  <V453000> or at least "lacking" in this area
17:47:39  <planetmaker> yes. But rain and mono have a separate set of wagons and engines. So where's the issue?
17:48:25  <V453000> well I personally dont have any issue, but I guess it is that universal rail type requires to have special checks for engines to attach only correct wagons
17:48:53  <V453000> because otherwise maglev would be automatically best with the best speed and best wagons attachable
17:49:10  <planetmaker> eh? But a rail wagon then still doesn't run on maglev, does it?
17:49:11  <V453000> these checks would be required exactly the same way if I used only one rail type
17:49:22  <V453000> wagons can run on any track cant they
17:49:30  <planetmaker> the univ. railtype is - correct me if I'm wrong - only to allow upgrades
17:49:45  <V453000> mostly
17:49:50  <planetmaker> and why would wagons run on any track?
17:49:59  <V453000> idk I think openttd just does that
17:50:01  <planetmaker> a rail wagon runs on rail, that's it. It won't go on maglev or mono
17:50:05  <planetmaker> It doesn't
17:50:17  <V453000> at least when I played with the universal rail type newgrf with original engines, wagons were always able to run on any track
17:50:37  <planetmaker> then the track grf defines every track compatible to every other tracktype
17:50:56  <V453000> which is needed for the autoreplace to work isnt it
17:51:09  <planetmaker> no
17:51:09  <V453000> alright
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17:51:11  <planetmaker> you just need univ to be compatible to every type
17:51:15  <planetmaker> not every to every other
17:51:22  <V453000> but even then, if any train could run on universal rail, and any wagon too, there would be a major issue
17:51:37  <planetmaker> not really. set max speed on univ to 10km/h
17:51:43  <planetmaker> then it's just of use for refit
17:51:55  <V453000> I dont want to limit the speed of that track
17:51:58  <planetmaker> (as track type property to univ)
17:52:35  <V453000> there are multiple ways how to autoreplace with the universal track, one of them to have the native track, and only depots universal, or to have everything universal
17:52:38  <planetmaker> eh... then it really doesn't make sense to distinguish track types. Just make all RAIL and distinguish stuff there
17:52:51  <V453000> having the universal track everywhere is a lot more comfortable and it also is the fastest way to autoreplace
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17:53:22  <V453000> if I make everything RAIL, I still need checks so trains haul only some wagons, just like I need when everything can go on universal rail, the same issue
17:54:15  <planetmaker> I'd make it to exclude the wagons you don't want :-)
17:54:57  <V453000> well yes that is an option but due to my weird attitude I prefer to just allow those specific ones
17:56:08  <planetmaker> yes, sadly
17:56:50  <planetmaker> with the result then, that people invent the invisible, universal engine which can pull everything
17:57:15  <V453000> if that is worth it for them, okay
17:57:39  <planetmaker> I wonder though: why make them jump like that? It makes no difference for coding or for you
17:57:57  <planetmaker> and reduces also the questions of "why can't I do X while I can do Y"
17:58:10  <V453000> well in coding it does, I would have to exclude everything I dont want instead of just adding a few I do want
17:58:46  <V453000> and for me, even when I play the set, and would combine things together, I would want to not be able to combine it like that with nuts
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18:03:38  <BiG_MeEcH> hi v4500000000000000
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18:06:26  <Bassals> it's 453000
18:06:46  <BiG_MeEcH> no , its v4500000000000000
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18:08:07  <XeryusTC> actually it´s Vaseo
18:08:23  <Chris_Booth> lol
18:08:32  <Chris_Booth> told
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20:36:13  <Bassals> !ping
20:36:13  <PublicServer> Bassals: pong
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20:50:49  <BiG_MeEcH> hi
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