Log for #openttdcoop on 20th July 2013:
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01:20:24  <phatmatt> FWIW i was surprised to see cargodist here too... it automates away too much of the fun away. can it be used only in smaller sections of networks, like intra-city stuff?
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02:54:17  <scshunt> I really don't see how it "automates away too much of the fun"
02:54:34  <scshunt> !password
02:54:34  <PublicServer> scshunt: sagger
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05:56:01  <Maraxus> !password
05:56:01  <PublicServer> Maraxus: weaves
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06:08:48  <V453000> scshunt: you disagree nicely, but your arguments are counting 0 so far which is pretty good
06:18:42  <scshunt> V453000: I am trying to understand the grievances
06:18:47  <scshunt> what fun specifically?
06:19:26  <scshunt> it seems to me that the challenge of building a successful cargodist network is different from that of building a traditional netowrk
06:20:00  <V453000> building 0 hubs is ideal solution to cargodist
06:20:19  <V453000> while trivial to build
06:20:59  <scshunt> I don't think so
06:21:08  <scshunt> That's one way to approach the problem
06:21:15  <scshunt> but it only works especially well for pax games
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06:21:28  <scshunt> because each drop is also a pickup
06:21:38  <V453000> no, for everything
06:21:47  <scshunt> explain?
06:21:52  <scshunt> the last game we played was bad
06:21:59  <V453000> more like why wouldnt the station be the perfect solution
06:22:02  <V453000> it solves everything
06:22:11  <scshunt> "the station"?
06:22:14  <V453000> retransfering, and the trains are likely not going empty on their part
06:22:19  <V453000> station instead of a hub
06:22:20  <V453000> e.g.
06:22:38  <V453000> ideal cargodist network is only a web of stations connected between each other, no hubs
06:22:55  <scshunt> you mean just two-way links?
06:22:59  <V453000> yes
06:23:13  <scshunt> hardly, because then you have a problem of cargo types
06:23:13  <V453000> therefore you can very well control the traffic on various parts
06:23:21  <V453000> how do you have a problem with those
06:23:26  <scshunt> you need to accommodate different kinds of cargoes
06:23:32  <V453000> sure, how is that a problem
06:23:45  <V453000> as cargodist means you dont want to use full load orders, mixing cargoes is more than simple
06:24:27  <scshunt> but if you're putting every kind of cargo on every train, you're going to risk an inefficient network
06:24:42  <scshunt> most trains will have some goods, but few will be full
06:24:46  <V453000> why would you have combined trains, of course you have separate trains
06:25:02  <scshunt> even so, same problem
06:25:19  <V453000> no why, you just put there a correct amount of them
06:25:20  <scshunt> some trains will leave empty or nearly so
06:25:37  <scshunt> well that in and of itself is a form of challenge!
06:25:47  <scshunt> I mean, it doesn't sound like a fun game to me
06:26:03  <scshunt> but that doesn't menan someone else might not like it
06:26:07  <scshunt> *mean
06:26:17  <scshunt> and there are other game designs to be had
06:26:25  <V453000> form of challenge? What I mean is that a Normal game is this form of challenge, PLUS actually complex building included
06:26:32  <V453000> in normal game you build trains too dont you
06:26:46  <scshunt> yes, but you have fewer disconnected networks
06:26:46  <V453000> no there is no other design to cargodist which would make more sense
06:26:50  <scshunt> so there is much less of a problem
06:27:01  <scshunt> we just had two
06:27:08  <scshunt> the first worked pretty well
06:27:08  <V453000> which were both bad
06:27:15  <scshunt> the second, notsomuch
06:27:17  <V453000> sure, but the third one would work better
06:27:31  <V453000> there is no point in making trains go over the whole loop until empty
06:27:36  <V453000> if they can retransfer that easily
06:27:41  <scshunt> in the first game, they didn't
06:27:50  <scshunt> in the second game, they did, and that was bad
06:28:15  <scshunt> stevetrov's idea seems neat, although I don't think we need a third cargodist in a row
06:29:41  <V453000> if I understand correctly, it is removing hubs and making stations there, calling them hubs?
06:29:47  <scshunt> yes
06:29:47  <V453000> sooo what does it add?
06:29:56  <V453000> removing things from the game doesnt sounds interesting at all
06:30:00  <V453000> especially the key ones
06:30:06  <scshunt> well, every cargo is going through one or two of the SL transfer stations
06:30:20  <scshunt> which means that the stations are going to have to be well-built
06:30:21  <V453000> apart from managing train count (hich you do in normal games as well), what does it add
06:30:22  <Stevetrov> Hi there,
06:30:30  <V453000> so normal stations dont have to be well built?
06:30:35  <V453000> hello
06:30:39  <scshunt> well, sure
06:30:48  <Stevetrov> Sorry if my terminology has caused confusion.
06:30:58  <scshunt> but different people will get different things out of the gam
06:31:12  <Stevetrov> !password
06:31:12  <PublicServer> Stevetrov: cobble
06:31:16  <V453000> what will the people get out of the game if you Removed things without adding any
06:31:23  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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06:31:24  <V453000> in compare to normal game
06:31:34  <scshunt> things have been added
06:31:46  <V453000> and I am asking which things
06:31:49  <scshunt> the transfer stations will likely e bigger than most major stations even in nromal games
06:32:06  <V453000> bigger, but utterly trivial to build, nope
06:32:06  <scshunt> steve's model would probably have more SL than your average game, and I happen to like ethat
06:32:31  <V453000> normal games can also have massive amounts of SLs
06:32:37  <scshunt> if all you want to do is build big hubs, that's fine, maybe cargodist isn't the right game for you, but that's not why everyone is playing
06:33:02  <V453000> sure, but those people are not here
06:33:09  <Stevetrov> My idea would have 2 major 3-way hubs. But these hubs would need to be fairly large because there would be a large amount of traffic going over them
06:33:35  <scshunt> they are definitely here, otherwise not much SL would get built :P
06:33:59  <V453000> how is SL related to cargodist and not wanting to build hubs
06:34:07  <Stevetrov> My original plan had 8 side lines and ironically more hubs but I reduced it to 4 side lines so each could be a different colour
06:34:30  <V453000> and using even less hubs would make more sense in such plan
06:34:34  <scshunt> V453000: you said those people are not here
06:34:35  <V453000> less meaning 0
06:34:48  <scshunt> V453000: no, it wouldn't, because you need to have transfers
06:34:53  <scshunt> otherwise you get the trains-running-empty problem
06:34:55  <Stevetrov> but using less hubs is less fun as you said
06:34:57  <V453000> transfer = station, not hub
06:35:06  <scshunt> oh
06:35:08  <scshunt> right
06:35:15  <Stevetrov> I know
06:35:34  <Stevetrov> 4 side lines, 4 trasfter stations 2 hubs
06:35:46  <scshunt> V453000: why does your plan require all BBHs to be above snowline and all SLHs to be blelow? It would clearly be optimal to not have that restriction
06:36:09  <scshunt> a) because you think it would produce a neat game
06:36:15  <V453000> it enforces very good structure in building especially with the expandable network
06:36:34  <V453000> it is fun and original and adds a new element to choosing where things are and how they interact with others
06:36:34  <scshunt> I'm going to screw up that expandable thing XD
06:36:36  <V453000> removes: nothing
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06:37:37  <scshunt> and adding hubs to steve's layout produces a different aesthetic and (slightly) more interesting building without removing anything
06:37:45  <V453000> !password
06:37:45  <PublicServer> V453000: cobble
06:37:56  <V453000> without removing the removed hubs? :)
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06:38:43  <scshunt> well if we're measuring like that, your network might remove some build flexibility
06:39:16  <V453000> I havent heard build flexibility, enlighten me
06:39:37  <scshunt> Well you've limited my choices of hub locations
06:39:42  <V453000> but as it doesnt even mention what is where, it basically gives almost unrestrained flexibility already
06:40:08  <V453000> yeah I limited them only to about 19823769 possibilities
06:40:13  <V453000> maybe 2 possibilities more or less
06:40:32  <scshunt> like, I just don't see that it's such a big deal that you need to consider banning it
06:40:46  <V453000> what?
06:41:04  <scshunt> you mentioned earlier that you were considering banning cargodist
06:41:12  <V453000> that is true
06:41:41  <Sylf> we're still discussing/disgusting cargodist?
06:41:52  <scshunt> It doesn't seem to me that it's so fundamentally offensive that it needs to be banned. If it's so bad that everyone hates it, it simply won't win again
06:41:53  <Stevetrov> I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest
06:41:54  <V453000> What else do you want to do with it Sylf
06:42:19  <V453000> if it isnt discussed, there will be bitching still
06:42:47  <scshunt> I don't think I'll vote for a cargodist in the near future myself; Im still new and want to try interesting things, all of which have already been done before :P
06:43:00  <V453000> it is offensive in a way that it removes sense of playing
06:43:25  <scshunt> that's your opinion, and it's not entirely shared by others
06:43:33  <V453000> you didnt give reasons yet
06:43:45  <V453000> and popular solutions arent always the right solutions
06:44:06  <Stevetrov> right according to whom?
06:44:06  <scshunt> (btw, is it a rule that you can't vote for your own plan/if you have a plan already? there's no wiki entry on voting rules)
06:44:23  <V453000> it doesnt make sense to vote for yourself, yes
06:44:32  <V453000> you already did vote for yourself by making the plan
06:44:52  <scshunt> what if, hypothetically, I was Sylf and didn't want to vote for myself?
06:44:59  <scshunt> ;)
06:45:02  <Stevetrov> Would I be allowed to remove my plan if I wanted to vote for someone else?
06:45:22  <V453000> you can vote for someone else without removing it
06:45:33  <Stevetrov> ok
06:45:49  <V453000> in cases we have to count votes to the last though, those votes count for 0.5 usually
06:45:59  <V453000> depends, that is special situations and those arent going by any rules
06:46:06  <V453000> purely situational decision
06:46:11  <scshunt> At this stage in my discovery of the game, cargodist is just a different form of play that breeds different restrictions, and restrictions are part of what make the game fun.
06:46:48  <V453000> if the restriction adds something, sure
06:47:43  <Stevetrov> Thats what I was trying to do, I feel I have failed
06:48:10  <V453000> unwinnable battle Stevetrov :P
06:48:28  <V453000> so I wouldnt define as failed, you did about as good job as you possibly could
06:48:53  <scshunt> heh
06:48:56  <Stevetrov> lol
06:49:01  <scshunt> btw, have there been any games with one-way MLs?
06:49:14  <V453000> yes
06:49:22  <Stevetrov> didnt expect my plan to get chosen, who would vote for the new boy they dont know...
06:49:25  <V453000> I personally do not like it too much, but sometimes for a change
06:49:43  <V453000> that isnt really a good logic Stevetrov, it happens quite often
06:49:46  <scshunt> V453000: can you provide some archive examples?
06:49:52  <V453000> @archive
06:49:52  <Webster> | |
06:49:54  <V453000> go there? :P
06:50:01  <scshunt> it's slwo :P
06:50:15  <V453000> how do you want to learn if you dont know the archive :) off you go
06:50:34  <Stevetrov> Why isnt it good logic? I like to learn from my mistakes? Is 2 hubs not enough?
06:50:54  <scshunt> Stevetrov: He means that new people get often
06:50:56  <V453000> I mean bad logic is the "people wouldnt vote for me anyway"
06:51:00  <Sylf> Logic as in, newbie cant win
06:51:13  <Stevetrov> ah i c
06:51:14  <Sylf> Newbie plans can win, and they do.
06:51:59  <scshunt> I haven't been here long enough to know for sure, but I'd imagine people vote for the plan, not for the player
06:52:32  <V453000> yes but if you win like 10 times in a row, there is some bitching about that topic :)
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06:54:45  <scshunt> also, out of curiosity (I don't actually have any plans since I'm not into the modding scene), how are GRFs decided? What if someone wants to use a different industry set or something?
06:55:03  <PublicServer> <V453000> the one who makes the map decides that
06:55:17  <PublicServer> <V453000> if it is wayyy too bad, we ask them to update it, or make a new map
06:56:11  <V453000> players are generally encouraged to make a map, and recommended to read beforehand
06:57:13  <Sylf> I really don't remember a non-member player contributed map in play
06:57:31  <PublicServer> <V453000> that is a different topic :D
06:57:33  <scshunt> hmm, I just got a silly idea. Two separate networks that must run in parallel, so while trains from one network don't cross onto the other, all the hubs have to be in the same place
06:57:51  <Sylf> yuck
06:57:53  <scshunt> (overlapping)
06:58:16  <V453000> generally separating networks means you need X times more trains to make the game interesting ;)
06:58:19  <Stevetrov> wow thats how you create a map!!!
06:58:20  <V453000> cpu -> suffering
06:59:03  <Sylf> creating map.... well, if you ever played single player, you know how :P
06:59:24  <scshunt> V453000: wouldn't a 2xL_R require about as much trains as a LL_RR?
06:59:40  <V453000> of course it would but its complexity is half of LL_RR
07:00:08  <scshunt> yeah, true
07:00:13  <V453000> obviously it is a bit more complicated than that to say, but still
07:00:27  <V453000> ofc the ideal solution isnt one ML with 10L_10R
07:00:35  <scshunt> heh
07:00:36  <V453000> but generally keeping it as one network is nicer
07:00:51  <scshunt> wth, 252 had 41BBHs?
07:01:03  <V453000> hmh :)
07:01:10  <scshunt> hmh?
07:01:30  <V453000> yes.
07:02:11  <Sylf> that's what you get when you start with L_R ML, if I remember that game right
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07:04:40  <scshunt> V453000: with a plan like yours, are there any expectations, like having a single station for each secondary/tertiary?
07:05:01  <V453000> what do you mean by that
07:05:33  <V453000> there is 1 cargo = 1 drop sign in the wall of text
07:06:16  <scshunt> oh ok
07:06:47  <V453000> I didnt realize I need to specify the drops so it gained a bit more text than I wanted it to have
07:07:47  <scshunt> !password
07:07:47  <PublicServer> scshunt: soured
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07:08:26  <scshunt> I'm willing to concede defeat and get on with building :P
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07:08:54  <PublicServer> <V453000> :D I would personally start in the european afternoon
07:09:00  <PublicServer> <V453000> to get some people along
07:09:07  <PublicServer> <V453000> ~in 4-5 hours
07:09:18  <scshunt> I'll probably be asleep then :P
07:09:28  <PublicServer> <V453000> hm :)
07:09:34  <scshunt> <- Canadian
07:09:46  <scshunt> or I could just sleep for a few hours, get up, build for a while, and go back to bed
07:09:57  <PublicServer> <V453000> tactics
07:10:22  <scshunt> hmm, actually, now that I look at the plan again, what do the destinations mean? Each drop should be by a city to receive the corresponding goods?
07:10:38  <PublicServer> <V453000> basically yes
07:10:57  <PublicServer> <V453000> cities can be founded anew, or even transfering the goods from them
07:11:07  <scshunt> and 1 cargo = 1 drop means we will have multiple secondaries/tertiaries for each form of input?
07:11:14  <scshunt> (e.g 3 factories)
07:11:16  <PublicServer> <V453000> but as the plan is very flexible we should be easily able to find city spots
07:11:22  <PublicServer> <V453000> yes
07:11:30  <scshunt> cool
07:11:34  <scshunt> see ya later then
07:11:38  <V453000> byez
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07:13:35  <V453000> later from me too :P
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07:19:34  <scshunt> V453000: I should add that I would think "it eats up too much CPU" is a valid reason to ban cargodist ;)
07:19:50  <V453000> it actually is, too
07:19:57  <V453000> 500 train game being "heavy" is pretty ass
07:21:20  <phatmatt> oh, so it wasn't just me and my brick that i call a computer then
07:24:17  <phatmatt> my terrible idea was to associate each primary industry with a colour, red yellow or blue
07:24:40  <phatmatt> you can find that by taking the tile number of the northwestmost tile, and modding it by 3
07:24:59  <phatmatt> and then, some dumb thing about how colours can't mix, and can only join with white (ie. ML)
07:25:22  <phatmatt> but that's just another big-ML-ring with forced-sidelines-of-single-colours
07:25:27  * phatmatt shrugs
07:28:23  <V453000> :D
07:36:00  <phatmatt> like some silly graph-theory colouring thing. actually using PURR
07:36:12  <phatmatt> buuuut that ^ seems a bit undercooked still. maybe next time
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08:16:12  <dr-dinosaur> OMG new transport tycoon!
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09:59:01  <V453000> dr-dinosaur: new? :D
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10:03:52  <dr-dinosaur>
10:03:53  <Webster> Title: Gamasutra - News - Chris Sawyer on his reentry back into video games (at
10:04:26  <dr-dinosaur>
10:04:28  <Webster> Title: Chris Sawyer is coming back! Transport Tycoon on iOS/Android in 2013. : rct (at
10:06:13  <dr-dinosaur>
10:06:16  <Webster> Title: All aboard: First screenshots of Transport Tycoon for iOS & Android (at
10:07:49  <phatmatt> cool
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10:39:24  <Vinnie_nl> !password
10:39:24  <PublicServer> Vinnie_nl: psyche
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10:40:03  <PublicServer> <phatmatt> sup
10:40:09  <PublicServer> <V453000> purr
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10:40:49  <PublicServer> <phatmatt> "destroyer of worlds"... awesome
10:40:59  <PublicServer> <V453000> :)
10:41:06  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> hello
10:41:12  <PublicServer> <V453000> hi
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10:41:46  <PublicServer> <phatmatt> no large rebuilds? i thought rebuilding a busy drop station under pressure was half the fun
10:42:18  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> fun is banned
10:42:21  <PublicServer> <V453000> why rebuild it
10:42:27  <PublicServer> <V453000> build it compatibly with future
10:42:43  <PublicServer> <V453000> expanding does not have to mean rebuild
10:43:04  <dr-dinosaur> Half the challenge is creating something that is scalable
10:43:17  <dr-dinosaur> if you have to demolish, then you shouldn't have built it that way in the first place
10:44:13  <PublicServer> <phatmatt> sure sure, i get that. but i've seen my share of station-rebuildings on here ;)
10:44:24  <PublicServer> <phatmatt> but aiming for none of that is a good goal
10:45:12  <PublicServer> <V453000> of course, sometimes it is necessary
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10:56:24  <PublicServer> <V453000> want to start right away?
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11:06:38  <PublicServer> <phatmatt> i can help in an hour or so, but FWIW, i voted ;)
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11:06:48  <PublicServer> <V453000> ok :)
11:10:15  <dr-dinosaur>  is this a new map or something?
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11:11:27  <Vinnie_nl> yes new map
11:12:20  <dr-dinosaur> !download 64
11:12:20  <PublicServer> dr-dinosaur: unknown option "64"
11:12:25  <dr-dinosaur> !download x64
11:12:25  <PublicServer> dr-dinosaur: unknown option "x64"
11:12:29  <dr-dinosaur> !download
11:12:29  <PublicServer> dr-dinosaur: !download autostart|autottd|lin|lin64|osx|ottdau|source|win32|win64|win9x
11:12:29  <PublicServer> dr-dinosaur:
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11:19:02  <dr-dinosaur> !password
11:19:02  <PublicServer> dr-dinosaur: kissed
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11:20:37  <PublicServer> <Dr-Dinosaur> Will the server be able to handle Sylf's PAX plan?
11:21:11  <PublicServer> <V453000> server yes, clients hard to tell
11:21:25  <PublicServer> <V453000> still, we might start very shortly with my plan anyway
11:22:52  <PublicServer> <Dr-Dinosaur> I voted for Maraxus :)
11:23:02  <PublicServer> <V453000> what can I say
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11:31:20  <dr-dinosaur> V45300: You need a mailing list :)
11:31:33  <V453000> ;?
11:31:37  <V453000> ?
11:31:53  <dr-dinosaur> To let people know when you are starting new maps, new phases, new tutorials etc.
11:32:00  <V453000> I dont need anything
11:32:07  <dr-dinosaur> I know :)
11:32:24  <V453000> and I believe twitter somewhat does that
11:32:37  <dr-dinosaur> I just like your tutorials, they are sooo useful
11:32:51  <V453000> :)
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11:45:38  <Maraxus> !password
11:45:39  <PublicServer> Maraxus: cooker
11:45:56  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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12:13:27  <PublicServer> <V453000> elo
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14:48:25  <scshunt> !password
14:48:25  <PublicServer> scshunt: throbs
14:48:41  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
14:48:43  <PublicServer> *** scshunt joined the game
14:52:17  <scshunt> about ready to move on?
14:53:18  <Vinnie_nl> you mean next level?
14:54:07  <Vinnie_nl> !password
14:54:07  <PublicServer> Vinnie_nl: strife
14:54:22  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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14:55:00  <scshunt> level?
14:55:12  <scshunt> (also, should probably spectate to avoid advancing the game until we start building)
14:55:15  <scshunt> !players
14:55:18  <PublicServer> scshunt: Client 231 is scshunt, a spectator
14:55:18  <PublicServer> scshunt: Client 223 is Dr-Dinosaur, a spectator
14:55:18  <PublicServer> scshunt: Client 207 is stevetrov, a spectator
14:55:18  <PublicServer> scshunt: Client 220 (Orange) is V453000, in company 1 (Jones & Co.)
14:55:18  <PublicServer> scshunt: Client 235 (Orange) is Vinnie, in company 1 (Jones & Co.)
14:55:59  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> advancing game means more money from moneymaker
15:00:09  <PublicServer> <V453000> I will be 100% free to start @18:30 cet
15:00:19  <PublicServer> <V453000> so would be nice if I get more than 2 people around :D
15:00:23  <PublicServer> <V453000> but if you want you can start now
15:02:06  <scshunt> I have no issues waiting or not
15:02:14  <scshunt> I have other things I can do
15:03:44  <PublicServer> <V453000> k :)
15:05:53  <scshunt> I should be good pretty much whenever today, so just ping
15:06:51  <V453000> will do
15:06:54  <V453000> 18:30 it is
15:07:04  <V453000> so in 1:20 from now roughly
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16:08:08  <Stevetrov> I am going out in a bit but should be available to help out later
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16:11:05  <V453000> @stage GAME ON
16:11:05  *** Webster changes topic to "Cooperative OpenTTD | PSG263 (r25613) | STAGE: GAME ON | New players, use @quickstart and !help |"
16:11:32  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> 7 zip is better
16:11:47  <PublicServer> <V453000> :D
16:11:54  <PublicServer> <V453000> time for beer
16:11:58  <PublicServer> <V453000> also I am on teamspeak
16:12:08  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> i am 1 beer ahead of you
16:12:18  <PublicServer> <V453000> gotta catch up
16:12:24  <PublicServer> <V453000> well k
16:12:27  <PublicServer> <V453000> lets build shit
16:13:01  <Vinnie_nl>
16:13:01  <Webster> Title: "It's a Race! I hope I win..." Rowan Atkinson, Rat Race HD., Length: 8s, Views: 91395, Likes: 187
16:13:21  <V453000> omfg :d
16:13:41  <V453000> its a maze
16:13:42  <V453000>
16:13:42  <Webster> Title: Rats on Cocaine #4 - Maze [HQ], Length: 5m 42s, Views: 4123, Likes: 12
16:18:06  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> want to change your gameyears -50 years?
16:18:20  <PublicServer> <V453000> its fine
16:18:54  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> and what is that wierd stuff video
16:19:29  <PublicServer> <V453000> iz awesome
16:19:39  <V453000> is also great
16:19:39  <Webster> Title: Rats on Cocaine #3 Narc, Length: 5m 30s, Views: 137360, Likes: 633
16:19:42  <V453000> rest is pretty bad actually
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16:28:48  <Jam35> !password
16:28:48  <PublicServer> Jam35: betray
16:29:07  <PublicServer> *** Jam35 joined the game
16:29:14  <PublicServer> <V453000> heyooo
16:29:32  <PublicServer> <Jam35> hiii
16:35:19  <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined company #1
16:39:44  <Maraxus> !password
16:39:44  <PublicServer> Maraxus: nickel
16:40:04  <PublicServer> *** Maraxus joined the game
16:40:15  <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi
16:40:41  <PublicServer> <V453000> hi
16:40:41  <PublicServer> *** Vinnie has joined spectators
16:40:47  <PublicServer> <Vinnie> hey
16:42:32  <scshunt> sorry I'm klate
16:42:37  <scshunt> roommate made breakfast
16:42:50  <PublicServer> <V453000> :D no need to be sorry
16:43:48  <PublicServer> <scshunt> Ok, so what are we doing at the moment? Just laying down the framework for BBHs?
16:44:02  <PublicServer> <V453000> more or less
16:44:12  <PublicServer> *** scshunt has joined company #1
16:44:20  <PublicServer> <V453000> it is kind of an unique game so you have to improvise
16:44:30  <PublicServer> *** stevetrov has left the game (general timeout)
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16:45:16  <PublicServer> <scshunt> it's ok to demolish other plans, right?
16:46:06  <PublicServer> <scshunt> Oh, and what's the CL?
16:46:16  <PublicServer> <V453000> CL1:5
16:46:18  <PublicServer> <V453000> as visible near the plan
16:46:24  <PublicServer> <V453000> train isnt slowing down
16:46:30  <PublicServer> <V453000> or, by 2kmh which is ignorable
16:49:55  <scshunt> @@gap 4
16:50:01  <scshunt> @@(gap 4)
16:50:05  <PublicServer> <V453000> dont use that this game
16:50:11  <PublicServer> <V453000> use what works at that moment
16:50:35  <scshunt> uh, ok?
16:51:28  <PublicServer> *** Sylf joined the game
16:51:29  <PublicServer> <V453000> hio
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16:52:17  <PublicServer> <scshunt> Ok, any issues with the skeleton I built up by Sylf's plan?
16:52:43  <PublicServer> <Sylf> there's 1 2x45
16:52:43  <PublicServer> <V453000> CL1 for instance
16:52:57  <PublicServer> <scshunt> thanks
16:53:07  <PublicServer> <scshunt> yeah, I see it
16:54:47  <PublicServer> <V453000> I wouldnt be too concerned about doubled bridges for now, but it doesnt hurt
16:55:01  <PublicServer> <scshunt> I probably double excessively
16:55:23  <PublicServer> <scshunt> Ok, signaled
16:55:25  <PublicServer> <V453000> nah its fine
16:55:35  <PublicServer> <V453000> one hint though
16:55:37  <PublicServer> <scshunt> I double on SLs and stuff too where it isn're really useful :)
16:55:37  <PublicServer> <V453000> the more space you provide
16:55:39  <PublicServer> <V453000> the more expandable it is
16:55:41  <PublicServer> <V453000> e.g.
16:56:44  <PublicServer> <scshunt> better
16:56:50  <PublicServer> <scshunt> thanks
16:57:32  <PublicServer> <scshunt> Are MSH's above or below the ice line?
16:58:54  <PublicServer> <V453000> considered ML
16:58:56  <PublicServer> <V453000> thus above
17:00:08  <PublicServer> <V453000> ASDF, back soon, like in an hour or less
17:00:10  <PublicServer> *** V453000 has joined spectators
17:02:50  <PublicServer> <Sylf> hmmm
17:02:57  <PublicServer> <Sylf> V missed copper ore in the mix
17:03:35  <PublicServer> <Sylf> no, I'm messing up in my tally
17:05:19  *** Brumi has quit IRC
17:06:58  <PublicServer> <scshunt> is a curve of one tile accptable if it's not a diagonal tile?
17:07:16  <PublicServer> <Sylf> see the curve example next to the network plan
17:07:27  <PublicServer> <scshunt> ok, thanks
17:07:57  <PublicServer> <scshunt> also does anyone object to what I did at !a hub divided
17:08:56  <PublicServer> <scshunt> you could squeeze two hubs there but I think this is cooler
17:09:14  <PublicServer> <Sylf> think about expandability
17:09:20  <PublicServer> <scshunt> it's very expandable :)
17:09:50  <PublicServer> <Sylf> up to LLLL_RRRR?
17:10:01  <PublicServer> <scshunt> hmm, not in one corner
17:10:07  <PublicServer> <scshunt> but otherwise should be good
17:12:37  <PublicServer> <scshunt> there, that should be better
17:15:16  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ok, so we need 11 sets of main stations, so 11 MSHs
17:15:54  <PublicServer> <Sylf> whats this hub divided?
17:16:16  <PublicServer> <scshunt> the northern ML splits in two, it's really two half-hubs
17:16:18  <PublicServer> <Sylf> giving a hub nice expandable space is good, but that's excessive
17:16:31  *** dwarf has joined #openttdcoop
17:16:31  *** Webster sets mode: +o dwarf
17:16:48  <PublicServer> <scshunt> there's no need for two hubs in that space
17:16:56  <PublicServer> <scshunt> and it looks prettier I think :)
17:17:02  <PublicServer> <Sylf> why do we neeed two hubs there?
17:17:12  <PublicServer> <Sylf> Let's not build hubs for sake of having more hubs
17:17:15  <PublicServer> <scshunt> I mean there's room for two, but we don't need them for the layout
17:17:37  <PublicServer> <scshunt> this corner is pretty excessively dense already I think
17:22:39  <PublicServer> <Jam35> so what does happen to copper?
17:22:54  <PublicServer> <Sylf> it goes to a copper ore drop.
17:23:18  <PublicServer> <Sylf> did I miss that in my list...
17:23:21  <PublicServer> <Jam35> interesting
17:23:24  <PublicServer> <Jam35> yes
17:23:33  <PublicServer> <Sylf> oooooh
17:23:44  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so copper ore drop doesn't share it with any other cargo
17:23:51  <PublicServer> <Jam35> looks like it
17:24:11  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so we have 12 sets of stations
17:24:25  <PublicServer> <Maraxus> make that 11
17:24:55  <PublicServer> <Sylf> water and copper ore goods goes to the 12th set of station
17:25:01  <PublicServer> <Maraxus> wheat&paper is mentioned twice
17:25:03  <PublicServer> <Sylf> that set will have no pickup station
17:25:29  <PublicServer> <Sylf> yeah
17:25:39  <PublicServer> <Sylf> any other errors?
17:27:30  <PublicServer> <Maraxus> none I can see
17:28:12  <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined spectators
17:32:18  <PublicServer> <scshunt> What is the list of drops supposed to be?
17:32:36  <PublicServer> *** phatmatt has left the game (general timeout)
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17:32:52  <PublicServer> <Sylf> what do you mean exactly?
17:33:06  <PublicServer> <Sylf> we need 1 drop for each primaries
17:33:13  <PublicServer> <Sylf> except gold and diamond share a drop
17:33:31  <PublicServer> <Sylf> most of drops also will share the stations with a secondary cargo
17:33:51  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so build 11 drops, and we'll be good to go
17:34:21  <PublicServer> <Sylf> don't worry about making the drop stations close to towns.
17:34:25  <scshunt> oh ok
17:34:31  <PublicServer> <Sylf> we can station walk, or found a town if needed.
17:34:45  <PublicServer> <scshunt> they can just go anywhere, right?
17:35:16  <PublicServer> <Sylf> I build places where.... places like your extra large hub.
17:35:23  <PublicServer> <scshunt> haha :)
17:35:33  <PublicServer> <Sylf> enough space for two large hubs, but no need to have two.
17:35:33  <PublicServer> <scshunt> if you want to put a drop there instead, be my guest
17:36:23  <PublicServer> <Sylf> from that large hub, which snowy area are we going to lead the ML?
17:37:24  <PublicServer> <Sylf> oh, I see a fault in that large hub.
17:37:35  <PublicServer> <scshunt> I think B should be the station
17:37:36  <PublicServer> <Sylf> there is a join before merge.
17:37:54  <PublicServer> <Sylf> er
17:37:58  <PublicServer> <Sylf> join/merge before split
17:38:27  <PublicServer> <scshunt> that's intentional, though I suppose it will cause a proble
17:38:37  <PublicServer> <scshunt> eh, I'll just scrap it and do the sane thing :)
17:39:11  <PublicServer> <Sylf> but that's a large rebuild
17:39:19  <PublicServer> <scshunt> not really
17:39:25  <PublicServer> <scshunt> I'll turn half into an MSH
17:39:27  <PublicServer> <scshunt> and the other half into a BBH
17:41:25  <PublicServer> <scshunt> or you can do it
17:44:47  <PublicServer> <scshunt> hmm, I don't like htat
17:44:53  <PublicServer> <scshunt> because I think there should be a MSH up there
17:44:55  <PublicServer> <Sylf> it's still making the hub huge
17:45:05  <PublicServer> <scshunt> and that will make it difficult
17:57:10  <PublicServer> <scshunt> ugh, this hub is bigger than it needs to be
17:57:14  <PublicServer> <scshunt> I'm bad at building tiny :(
17:57:24  <PublicServer> <scshunt> oh well, it's not like it's useful space to put something else
17:58:40  <PublicServer> <scshunt> oh well
17:59:02  <PublicServer> <Sylf> can I show you one trick there?
17:59:08  <PublicServer> <scshunt> sure!
17:59:26  <PublicServer> <Sylf> one hint of making something smaller is to reduce number of tunnels and bridges
17:59:36  <PublicServer> <scshunt> don't you need at least 3 for a hub?
17:59:42  <PublicServer> <Sylf> so, we'll take this double tunnels
18:00:32  <PublicServer> <Sylf> ta-dah.
18:00:38  <PublicServer> <Sylf> an instant simplification
18:00:40  <PublicServer> <scshunt> ah
18:00:46  <PublicServer> <scshunt> isn't that less expandable though?
18:01:13  <PublicServer> <Sylf> there is actually something good about not using double bridge/tunnels at this point.
18:01:23  <PublicServer> <scshunt> what's that?
18:01:37  <PublicServer> <Sylf> it will keep the original structure simpler, and we'll only have to add doubles only if it's needed
18:01:51  <PublicServer> <scshunt> ah
18:02:34  <PublicServer> <Sylf> but in general, if you can find a spot where you can reuse the same double bridge/tunnels for multiple functions, that can reduce the size of a hub
18:02:40  <PublicServer> <scshunt> ok
18:03:10  <PublicServer> <scshunt> I count 4 MSHs right now
18:03:18  <PublicServer> <Sylf> there's one CL1
18:03:56  <PublicServer> <scshunt> hrm
18:05:30  <PublicServer> <scshunt> it's all right to start plotting out MLs without building hubs right?
18:24:39  <PublicServer> <scshunt> I have to go for a little while
18:24:50  *** dwarf has quit IRC
18:25:01  <PublicServer> <scshunt> I planned out the hubs on the left side of the map since the networks were starting to run the risk of gaping holes
18:26:28  <PublicServer> <scshunt> the
18:27:03  <PublicServer> *** scshunt has left the game (connection lost)
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18:27:55  *** Webster sets mode: +o dwarf
18:29:19  <PublicServer> *** Vinnie has left the game (general timeout)
18:29:19  <PublicServer> *** Vinnie has left the game (connection lost)
18:30:31  <PublicServer> <V453000> and iz bek
18:30:34  <PublicServer> <V453000> helo
18:30:44  <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi
18:32:10  <PublicServer> * Sylf is afk
18:32:13  <PublicServer> *** Sylf has joined spectators
18:32:13  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players)
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18:46:14  <Stevetrov> !password
18:46:14  <PublicServer> Stevetrov: sexing
18:46:32  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
18:46:32  <PublicServer> *** stevetrov joined the game
18:47:43  <Stevetrov> evening
18:48:40  <scshunt> afternoon
18:48:58  <Stevetrov> nothing happening at the moment?
18:51:01  <Stevetrov> everyone is spectating
18:51:25  <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined company #1
18:51:25  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players)
18:51:29  <PublicServer> <Jam35> hi
18:51:33  <PublicServer> <Jam35> build away :)
18:52:03  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> shall I carry on with the ML, hubs?
18:52:09  <PublicServer> <Jam35> yep
18:53:00  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> ok thanks
18:54:28  <PublicServer> <Jam35> hm not sure that corner works too well
18:54:43  <PublicServer> <Jam35> maybe that bbh should be msh?
18:55:02  <PublicServer> <Jam35> lots of pointless ml
18:56:36  <Stevetrov> It did look odd to me but maybe v has something planned for it .
18:56:54  <PublicServer> <Jam35> he didn't plan that out
18:57:29  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> ah
18:58:15  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> who did?
18:58:19  <PublicServer> <Jam35> not sure
19:05:06  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> do those 2 look ok?
19:06:00  <PublicServer> <Jam35> should be fine for now
19:06:18  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> we not double up bridges and tunnels ?
19:06:40  <PublicServer> <Jam35> no need atm up to you
19:07:02  <PublicServer> <Jam35> room for expansion is key
19:07:31  <scshunt> I planned the left corner, is there an issue?
19:07:52  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> you have a BBH that doesnt go anywhere
19:08:05  <scshunt> it loops around and connects with the BBH halfway up the next side
19:08:16  <scshunt> there isn't much snow for more hubs sadly
19:08:36  <PublicServer> <Jam35> why have 2 ml's for the same destination?
19:08:46  <PublicServer> <Jam35> it's just a loop
19:08:55  <scshunt> hang on
19:09:03  <scshunt> !password
19:09:03  <PublicServer> scshunt: canned
19:09:15  <PublicServer> *** scshunt joined the game
19:10:01  <scshunt> it's so as to allow an SLH back there
19:10:20  <PublicServer> <scshunt> there aren't very many good stops for an SLH serving the corner
19:10:24  <PublicServer> <Jam35> ok
19:10:26  <PublicServer> <scshunt> *spots
19:15:12  <PublicServer> <V453000> I think the main stations should be below snow
19:15:30  <PublicServer> <V453000> hubs above snow, stations below
19:15:40  <PublicServer> <Jam35> otherwise food is required
19:15:52  <PublicServer> <scshunt> ok
19:15:54  <PublicServer> <Jam35> which some don't have
19:16:13  <PublicServer> <scshunt> most of them won't be too much of a problem
19:16:32  <PublicServer> <V453000> it is just to allow more SLs
19:16:43  <PublicServer> <V453000> and more expandability too, a bit
19:16:58  <PublicServer> <V453000> having a main station close to a hub does not always have to be a good idea :P
19:18:32  <PublicServer> *** V453000 has joined company #1
19:20:21  <PublicServer> *** Vinnie joined the game
19:23:15  <dr-dinosaur2> !password
19:23:15  <PublicServer> dr-dinosaur2: canned
19:23:18  <PublicServer> *** Vinnie has joined spectators
19:24:02  <dr-dinosaur2> !password
19:24:02  <PublicServer> dr-dinosaur2: inking
19:24:21  <PublicServer> *** Dr-Dinosaur joined the game
19:24:38  <PublicServer> <Dr-Dinosaur> This is the buildiest voting stage ever :p
19:25:06  <V453000> @topic get 3
19:25:06  <Webster> V453000: STAGE: GAME ON
19:25:34  <PublicServer> <scshunt> argh
19:25:42  <PublicServer> <scshunt> there's a water supply in my way
19:25:48  <PublicServer> <V453000> where
19:25:54  <PublicServer> <V453000> ah
19:25:57  <PublicServer> <V453000> its small, go around :D
19:26:05  <PublicServer> <scshunt> yeah, but I have to do that :P
19:27:11  <PublicServer> <Dr-Dinosaur> I dont' know how to help...
19:27:23  <PublicServer> <V453000> build stations or hubs
19:27:38  <PublicServer> <Dr-Dinosaur> Ahhh big hubs above snowline
19:32:05  <PublicServer> <V453000> animal drop ready
19:33:19  <PublicServer> <Jam35> is the below snowline for stations strict?
19:33:26  <PublicServer> <Jam35> cos of boroeyri
19:33:53  <PublicServer> <V453000> stations can be anywhere
19:34:00  <PublicServer> <V453000> bbhs above
19:34:42  <PublicServer> <Jam35> best make it one that also has food dropped there
19:35:25  <PublicServer> <Jam35> although it does accept goods
19:35:43  <PublicServer> <scshunt> ugh this hub sucks ass
19:39:05  <PublicServer> *** Maraxus has joined company #1
19:39:34  <PublicServer> <scshunt> is my hub (by vestmanna...) so bad it needs actual fixing?
19:39:52  <PublicServer> <scshunt> steve: your BBH goes below the snowline near the top corner
19:40:07  <PublicServer> <Dr-Dinosaur> oh so the whole of the BBH has to be above
19:40:17  <PublicServer> <Dr-Dinosaur> Even curve length allowing sections
19:40:36  <PublicServer> <scshunt> and however's building the MSH right in the top: corner: not very expandable
19:40:42  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> there isstill snow on the ground, just not very much :)
19:40:57  <PublicServer> <scshunt> it looks bad because the track pieces are green :)
19:41:19  <PublicServer> <scshunt> I guess one of my MSHs has the same problem though
19:41:38  <PublicServer> <scshunt> V, what's your opinion?
19:46:32  <PublicServer> <scshunt> however is working near borbeyri
19:46:39  <PublicServer> <scshunt> MSes go below the snowline
19:48:13  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> hozzat?
19:53:15  <PublicServer> <scshunt> Ok, I think that makes 11 MSHs
19:54:08  <scshunt> Jam35: ping
19:54:34  <PublicServer> <Jam35> hello?
19:54:45  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> hi
19:54:48  <PublicServer> <Jam35> er
19:54:51  <PublicServer> <Jam35> pong
19:55:04  <PublicServer> <scshunt> The sawmill needs to be below the snowline :(
19:55:14  <PublicServer> <scshunt> or at least, that's what I thought we'd agreed
19:55:24  <PublicServer> <Jam35> apparently not ?
19:55:47  <PublicServer> <scshunt> anyway, I'm going to do a few other things for a while
19:55:53  <PublicServer> *** scshunt has joined spectators
19:55:57  <PublicServer> <Jam35> thought I had this discussion beforehand :P
19:55:59  <PublicServer> <Jam35> bb
19:57:27  <PublicServer> <V453000> just build whatever :)
19:57:30  <PublicServer> *** Dr-Dinosaur has joined spectators
19:57:34  <PublicServer> <V453000> as for me, I will be going
19:57:36  <PublicServer> <V453000> gnight
19:57:39  <PublicServer> <Jam35> cya
19:57:45  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> bye
19:59:51  <planetmaker> TWerkhoven, you should be set to roll with some soap ;-)
20:00:04  <TWerkhoven> :)
20:00:04  <TWerkhoven> ta
20:02:13  <planetmaker> if you got questions regarding setup or so, feel free to contact me, of course
20:03:14  <TWerkhoven> will do
20:03:48  <planetmaker> if you need a test server / channel, it won't be a problem either :D
20:04:49  <TWerkhoven> I might just ask for that in a few days, once it can do more than connect/disconnect
20:04:53  <PublicServer> *** V453000 has left the game (leaving)
20:06:26  <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined spectators
20:07:15  <PublicServer> *** stevetrov has joined spectators
20:07:15  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players)
20:07:40  <PublicServer> <stevetrov> maraxus do u want me to join the company again so u can build?
20:07:54  <PublicServer> <Maraxus> no thanks
20:26:06  <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has left the game (leaving)
20:27:13  <Stevetrov> So I guess we need to build the rest of the drop & pickup stations now. Who decides where they go?
20:29:05  *** Jam35 has quit IRC
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20:36:36  *** Maraxus has quit IRC
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20:47:30  <PublicServer> *** stevetrov has left the game (connection lost)
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21:04:37  *** dwarf has joined #openttdcoop
21:04:37  *** Webster sets mode: +o dwarf
21:12:42  <TWerkhoven> is it intentional that the openttd's COPYING file contains the section 'how to apply these terms to your new programs'?
21:15:40  <planetmaker> TWerkhoven, that's the default which you can download from FSF
21:16:34  <PublicServer> <scshunt> does anyone mind if I number the hubs while we're paused
21:16:49  <PublicServer> <scshunt> since all the MSHs and BBHs are done
21:17:54  *** Gregor-PLNL has quit IRC
21:19:45  <scshunt> oh, I can't, huh
21:20:26  *** Stevetrov has joined #openttdcoop
21:20:37  <Stevetrov> !password
21:20:37  <PublicServer> Stevetrov: shroud
21:20:53  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
21:20:53  <PublicServer> *** stevetrov joined the game
21:21:25  <PublicServer> *** scshunt has joined company #1
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21:29:03  <scshunt> ok, hubs numbered
21:29:11  <planetmaker> :-)
21:29:43  <PublicServer> *** scshunt has joined spectators
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21:31:15  <PublicServer> *** Vinnie has left the game (general timeout)
21:31:15  <PublicServer> *** Vinnie has left the game (connection lost)
21:44:37  *** Stevetrov has quit IRC
21:44:42  <PublicServer> *** stevetrov has left the game (leaving)
21:44:44  <PublicServer> <scshunt> steve: did you want to build?
21:48:27  <PublicServer> <scshunt> oh, well then
21:50:09  <PublicServer> *** scshunt has joined company #1
21:53:13  <PublicServer> *** scshunt has joined spectators
21:53:39  <scshunt> ping me if anyone wants to build
22:24:37  *** Max| has quit IRC
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22:46:23  <PublicServer> *** Sylf has joined company #1
22:46:39  <Sylf> !unpause
22:46:39  <PublicServer> *** Sylf has unpaused the server. (Use !auto to set it back.)
22:46:39  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players)
22:47:12  <Sylf> !auto
22:47:12  <PublicServer> *** Sylf has enabled autopause mode.
22:47:12  <PublicServer> *** Game paused (number of players)
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