Log for #openttdcoop on 8th October 2013:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:24  <PublicServer> <mfb> good night
00:02:06  <PublicServer> <Anson> g'N8
00:02:28  <PublicServer> <mfb> 01 sends many trains to the new lines now
00:02:38  <PublicServer> <mfb> hopefully
00:03:44  <PublicServer> *** mfb has left the game (leaving)
00:03:56  <mfb-> !players
00:03:58  <PublicServer> mfb-: Client 363 (Orange) is Anson, in company 1 (Dunningwell Transport)
00:03:58  <PublicServer> mfb-: Client 375 (Orange) is AndreasB, in company 1 (Dunningwell Transport)
00:04:10  <PublicServer> *** AndreasB has joined spectators
00:04:26  <PublicServer> <Anson> i did a little change at 00 ... old version was an equal 1:1:1 split to lane 1 vs lane 2 vs lane 4+5, but trains prefered the first lanes, thus mostly 1 and 2
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00:04:52  <PublicServer> <Anson> now there is one split first for 5 (and now even 5+6+7), and the rest
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00:24:43  <Fehlersturm> !password
00:24:43  <PublicServer> Fehlersturm: kiting
00:25:08  <Fehlersturm> !password
00:25:09  <PublicServer> Fehlersturm: rebels
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00:25:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> hallo
00:25:33  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> hellur?
00:25:56  <PublicServer> <Anson> mfb recently left and i will leave soon too
00:26:27  <PublicServer> <Anson> became a little crazy with that BBH :-)
00:26:37  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> just wanted to have a quick look at how 6th and 7s are coming along
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00:26:41  <V453000> !save
00:26:41  <PublicServer> Saving game...
00:27:14  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh my
00:27:22  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> bbh is a bit huge now
00:27:25  <PublicServer> <Anson> 6th and 7th are almost done ... missing are mostly the connections FROM the neighbors
00:29:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> only temporary start of 6th and 7th from north, west and east ... the connections through BBH and to all neighbors SHOULD work now :-)
00:30:07  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> omg. well i shall expand some SLHs then.
00:30:49  <PublicServer> <Anson> while BBH is not fully tested, the rails should stay colored ... thus please no replace to the better wet rails
00:31:31  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh i am quite the noob. ill expand the SLHs but not connect my new rails.
00:31:42  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> until someone comes along and approves
00:31:54  <PublicServer> <Anson> color codes in BBH are for the directions ... else we will have to delete it and start over :-)
00:32:25  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i imagine.
00:32:44  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> have you guys ever build a 7x7 BBH bevore?
00:33:42  <PublicServer> <Anson> i think there is a 5x5 BBH in the junctionary, with a comment that it would be crazy and huge :-)
00:34:16  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well. the junctionary is not wrong
00:35:18  <PublicServer> <Anson> open the map with display of vehicles in orange ... BBH looks really nice now :-)
00:36:41  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i like how it almost starts to fuse with the close SLHs
00:37:05  <AndreasB> wtf
00:37:10  <AndreasB> BBH got bigger
00:37:15  <AndreasB> I wouldnt even know where to start lol
00:37:31  <AndreasB> I doubt I could do it with 1+1
00:38:31  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> try. i think basically you split every line into as many directions ass the bbh has -1 then connect every direction.
00:38:44  <AndreasB> o.O
00:39:03  <AndreasB> ass
00:39:04  <AndreasB> crack?
00:39:16  <AndreasB> :3
00:39:42  <AndreasB> I need to go to bed
00:39:43  <AndreasB> ciao
00:40:01  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> so this bbh icoperate 84 point to point connections i think
00:40:07  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> good night
00:40:18  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> no twic as many
00:40:24  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> 168
00:41:58  <PublicServer> <Anson> 4 sides * 7incoming lanes * 3 destination directions * 7 outgoing lanes !?
00:42:46  <PublicServer> <Anson> even a balancer with 7 to 7 would have 49 connections
00:43:14  <Fehlersturm> every incoming lane connects adds 7*3 connections
00:43:18  <PublicServer> <Anson> and this would be 12 times as many ...
00:43:22  <Fehlersturm> 4 incoming lanes
00:43:42  <PublicServer> <Anson> incoming tracks from 4 directions, each having 7 lanes
00:44:21  <PublicServer> <Anson> going to 3 other directions, each having 7 outgoing lanes
00:44:27  <Fehlersturm> i think 168 if fucking impressive
00:44:29  <PublicServer> <Anson> thus 4 * 7 * 3 * 7
00:44:59  <Fehlersturm> no the outgoing lanes dont count
00:45:08  <Fehlersturm> thats the points you connect to
00:45:16  <PublicServer> <Anson> that would be 588 connections, if really connecting all with all
00:45:47  <Fehlersturm> oh you mean like that
00:45:58  <Fehlersturm> but lanes arent interconnected right?
00:46:12  <Fehlersturm> the 1 connects to the other 1s
00:46:19  <Fehlersturm> the 2 to the other 2s
00:46:23  <Fehlersturm> etc
00:47:01  <PublicServer> <Anson> BBH has less than those 588 now ... eg lane 6 and 7 from south are only connected to lane 6 and 7 towards west, not from 1-5 to 6+7, and not from 6+7 to 1-5
00:47:23  <PublicServer> <Anson> but there exist connections from 6 to 6, 7 to 7, and also 6 to 7 and 7 to 6
00:47:58  <Fehlersturm> ok. so you do a little loadbalancin in bbh
00:48:05  <PublicServer> <Anson> there are many connections where lane 1 connects to 5 or more outgoing lanes in one direction
00:48:39  <PublicServer> <Anson> i think it was all to all while there were 3 or 4 lanes per direction
00:49:01  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> it started with 3 per direction
00:49:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> then grew every night of the weekend.
00:49:22  <PublicServer> <Anson> yes, and i think until 4 or 5 it was all to all
00:51:12  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh yeah. looks like it
00:58:21  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> gah that mess would need a rebuild badly
00:59:52  <PublicServer> <Anson> connecting 4 lanes ALL TO ALL would be 192 connections ... for 7 it would be 588 ... thus we have some value in between, maybe 400 :-)
01:01:00  <PublicServer> <Anson> hehe, we are nearing a value of 100k rail pieces :-)
01:08:38  <PublicServer> <Anson> i need to leave sooner or later ... will be AFK now but stay logged in so that you can continue building
01:09:08  <PublicServer> <Anson> my guess : half an hour
01:09:11  <Fehlersturm> oh
01:09:16  <Fehlersturm> dont worry
01:09:21  <Fehlersturm> i wasnt aware
01:09:28  <Fehlersturm> there need to be 2?
01:09:35  <Fehlersturm> so just go too sleep
01:09:42  <PublicServer> <Anson> on WS only 1, but here 2
01:09:43  <Fehlersturm> i should too
01:09:54  <Fehlersturm> go to sleep
01:09:59  <Fehlersturm> goodnight then
01:10:26  <PublicServer> <Anson> i will stay for at least half an hour ... but not longer than 4am
01:11:04  <PublicServer> <Anson> will give you a 5 minute warning before i log
01:11:10  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> k
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01:54:23  <Fehlersturm> i am going to bed.
01:54:29  <Fehlersturm> goodnight
01:56:45  <PublicServer> *** Fehlersturm has left the game (leaving)
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01:59:21  <PublicServer> <Anson> back ... I'll be gone now too
02:00:15  <PublicServer> <Anson> HINT FOR ADMINS : current setting for number of players allows the game to run even with only a single player logged in
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02:55:34  <PublicServer> <Anson> someone forgot to reenable auto with 2 players
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07:01:50  <x86_64> o_O
07:02:00  <x86_64> !help
07:02:00  <PublicServer> x86_64:
07:02:07  <x86_64> !quickstart
07:02:14  <x86_64> @quickstart
07:02:15  <Webster> Quickstart - #openttdcoop Wiki -
07:03:00  <V453000> O_o
07:03:30  <x86_64> what?
07:03:39  <x86_64> i'm not interested, bye
07:03:41  *** x86_64 has left #openttdcoop
07:03:41  <V453000> idk, a valid reply to o_O?
07:03:44  <V453000> lol
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07:54:09  <V453000> !rcon set min_active_clients
07:54:09  <PublicServer> V453000: Current value for 'min_active_clients' is: '2' (min: 0, max: 255)
07:54:12  <V453000> !auto
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08:02:54  <flaky> hey
08:03:20  <flaky> @quickstart
08:03:21  <Webster> Quickstart - #openttdcoop Wiki -
08:05:36  <flaky> !help
08:05:37  <PublicServer> flaky:
08:18:31  <flaky> maybe somebody can explain to me where the heck i get that newwater.grf working for the PS?
08:18:32  <Webster> Read the Quickstart - #openttdcoop Wiki - (again, try !grf)
08:20:21  <V453000> Webster just said it :)
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08:24:29  <flaky> hey V453000
08:24:41  <flaky> yes, i had the pack in the wrong directory
08:24:47  <flaky> now it works
08:24:56  <flaky> !password
08:24:56  <PublicServer> flaky: hedged
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08:29:27  <V453000> :)
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08:30:51  <flaky> rubberducks as trains? ;D
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10:13:31  <planetmaker> they swim!
10:27:40  <V453000> or float? :)
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12:56:51  *** sets mode: +voo PublicServer Sylf Ammler
12:57:01  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> yeah, been following the progression :D
12:57:08  *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Sylf
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12:57:23  <PublicServer> <Anson> looks really nice when you open the map and select the tab to show vehicles :-)
12:57:51  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> :P
12:59:33  <PublicServer> <Anson> i am just trying to fix the problem at Prefingway-on-sea Valley
13:01:16  <PublicServer> <Anson> for testing, i caused a jam in/at the tunnels, and the trains now behave really strange when they want to leave the station ... probably soon will again deadlock and make the whole unusable
13:01:44  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> at the bbh ?
13:02:14  <PublicServer> <Anson> Prefingway-on-sea Valley ... the exit of that station is messed up because of bad signaling
13:02:32  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> ah ye,s aw all the sign
13:02:32  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> s
13:02:35  <PublicServer> <Anson> some nice idea probably, but locks up because of the signals
13:03:26  <PublicServer> <Anson> when at one time both tunnels are used, the next train will go back from the reverser to the station, and thus lock up
13:03:28  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> change the signals ?
13:03:50  <PublicServer> <Anson> i am thinking whyt the creator might have thought :-)
13:04:05  <PublicServer> <Anson> there is probably a good idea behind it, bad badly implemented
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13:04:39  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> probably thought that both tunnels would never be used at the same time
13:04:53  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> also cant see how they would
13:05:03  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> unless theres jam leaving the station
13:05:21  <PublicServer> <Anson> but why did he use 2way combo and 2way exit at the end of the station and the entry to the reverser ?
13:05:56  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> good question
13:06:27  <PublicServer> <Anson> the tunnels are only very slightly shorter than the reverser ... thus it can happen that one train is waiting for a moment in a tunnel, and the other tunnel is still used too
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13:07:05  <PublicServer> <Anson> at that station, there were other problems too ... maybe it happened when that other problem was fixed ...
13:07:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> some signals were wrong direction and thus caused the overflow to jam and also jam the whole network :-)
13:07:41  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> heh
13:07:52  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> sometimes it takes just that one signal
13:07:58  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> that is somewhere
13:08:06  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> and wont be found ;)
13:08:12  <Fehlersturm> !password
13:08:12  <PublicServer> Fehlersturm: furrow
13:08:13  <PublicServer> <Anson> maybe when fixing that, the fixer misinterpreted the station and put signals at the exit like it would be an entry to the station ...
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13:08:42  <Fehlersturm> i am gonna completely rebuild that horrible merge i build yesterday
13:09:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> meh
13:09:59  <PublicServer> <Anson> hallo, fehler
13:10:21  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> hallo
13:10:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> you saw the signs i put on the slh, indicating which lines merge where ? .-)
13:12:33  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> so whoever put up all the signs around the SLH10a merge, is also of the opinion that it should be rebuild
13:13:44  <PublicServer> <Anson> it might work as a first attempt to get traffic on all 7 rails, but it shouldn't be the final attempt :-)
13:14:26  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well the AAA AA is basically just moving the temporary lane 6 and 7 splits upstream of the SLH
13:20:45  <PublicServer> <Anson> we would need a plan, how the additional three lines (besides the oldest lines ABCD) shall be used ... else mit doesn't make much sense to plan something on the slh
13:21:23  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well. wont the be used in exactly the same way?
13:21:45  <PublicServer> <Anson> you need to know where additional trains come from, or whether to simply get sideline1 on two of the new lanes, and sideline2 on the third new lane
13:22:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> afaik  D i s also completely connected to all SLHs
13:22:21  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> probably dont get 7 lines from the 10 main pickup
13:23:08  <PublicServer> <Anson> the current system is very good at giving almost all choices to both sidelines ... the problem is onlyy where those trains should be merged to, since there are only 4 lanes incoming
13:23:43  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well ideally to the lanes who are least busy
13:24:21  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> looking at pickup 10 exit - more or less no trains choose 2nd line
13:24:29  <PublicServer> <Anson> there are thre lanes which are "least busy" : the three lanes which don't come in to the SLH (the three others besides ABCD)
13:24:54  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh pribably /mfb PF trap works to good?
13:24:57  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> ill try to disconnect that train distribution and see what heppens
13:25:55  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> 4th line is actually jamming at times
13:26:01  <PublicServer> <Anson> the old version was with 4 incoming and 4 leaving lanes, and thus sideline1 and sideline2 had to be merged to them ... now there are 4 lanes ABCD which might just pass through, and the two incoming lanes from sideline1+2 can create the three new mainline lanes
13:27:37  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> but all ines need to be connected to slh10a dropß?
13:30:25  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well. the output loadbalancer of 10 main DROP got removed..
13:30:36  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> i just did
13:30:39  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> for testing
13:32:57  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> ill build a temporary detour for the SLH10a merge. and then we can decide how it should be rebuild. in this detour ill just passthrough ABCD and make XandY just merge with the remaining lines
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13:46:53  <PublicServer> <Anson> overflow depots are empty again .... 90 more trains on the network now :-)
13:47:03  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> :P
14:03:13  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> hokay. old merge completely disconnected
14:03:31  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> traffic still kindof flowing
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14:06:17  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> trains really hate using 6+7
14:10:57  <PublicServer> <Anson> i added a signal towards 7, and removed one towards 1+6 ... now more trains go to 7
14:13:07  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> need coffe get bevore rebuild
14:13:53  <PublicServer> <Anson> i think the hub works well enough until we get more traffic (mor direct lanes from the east)
14:22:48  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> hokay so we just leave it as is. until its needet
14:23:26  <PublicServer> <Anson> i think the next problem should be to take care of "!jam back ..."
14:24:13  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> thats a horrible junction.
14:24:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> currently, it is not too bad, but that was the jam that caused the signal problem to trigger
14:24:56  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> it works well. but its herd do grasp
14:25:54  <PublicServer> <Anson> doesn't work too well all the time ... i put up the sign when i followed the jam from the end in Prefingway-on-sea Valley station
14:26:32  <PublicServer> <Anson> look at it now ... starts jamming again
14:27:27  <PublicServer> <Anson> too much traffic from SLH11a drop west and several farms
14:28:57  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well. part of the problem is that 6+7 isnt connected in all SLHs and the BBH doesnt allow 6+7 to choose arbitary outgoing lines.  so sometimes a train just blocks evrything cause he cannot go to 6/7. like !there .
14:29:44  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> so now. 7 is unused again
14:30:42  <PublicServer> <Anson> i just changed the signals at the !there split from 1way to 2way
14:31:16  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh is this the bug where path signals jus take forever?
14:31:35  <PublicServer> <Anson> with 1way, the trains always prefered the inner lanes at the PBS and thus blocked the entire line
14:31:55  <PublicServer> <Anson> not a bug, but a feature :-)
14:32:34  <PublicServer> <Anson> at a PBS, trains select a direction that they like and then go to it or wait ... unless there are 2way signals that force them to the other direction when one is red
14:34:17  <PublicServer> <Anson> in a tight space, there is not much difference between pathes and thus they select a free path. but when it is more complicated, longer distance, and/or several penalties, etc (like on the long route of lanes 6 and 7), they select the "wrong" lane and then wait ... when there is only a normal 1way signal
14:37:30  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> we could reconnect every lane. one lane northeast of its current lane
14:38:01  <PublicServer> <Anson> i replaced the PBS with entry/exit now ... and it works
14:38:08  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> thus get traffic on 6+7. and use our new 1 to get more flow from the direction we have jams
14:39:42  <PublicServer> <Anson> at the sign "!jam back", our incoming trains are on the "yield" branch of the prio, and thus wait forever ... together with the PBS problem, it caused a massive jam ...
14:40:14  <PublicServer> <Anson> now max 1 train should be waiting on the bridge, and all following trains will go to the almost unused additional lane
14:41:32  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> still. middle lines jam while 6+7 are almost unused
14:41:58  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> btw i am using 7654321_1234567 nomenclature
14:44:32  <PublicServer> <Anson> makes sense ... inner lanes are #1, and counting outwards, mostly adding new lines outside, thus adding up
14:45:11  <PublicServer> <Anson> with the changed split, all the traffic which jammed before (coming from the farm) now goes almost only to #1
14:46:33  <PublicServer> <Anson> i think that the connection of 6 and 7 (from south/east) i still the first temporary connection to connect those new lines at all
14:46:55  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> yeah
14:48:13  <PublicServer> <Anson> at !firstsplit, trains prefer the inner lanes, and even if they go to the outer, they later select #5 and don't go to #6 or #7
14:50:21  <PublicServer> <Anson> trains would have to be given the choice even before they get to !firstsplit ... trains from the inner three lanes get no option at all to select the new lanes
14:52:45  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> what do thes PS do?
14:52:47  <PublicServer> <Anson> even with severe penalty (three backwards signals), they prefer the inner lanes
14:52:54  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> k
14:53:36  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> as i said. some trains cant even go to 6+7 since their target (SLH) is not connected to them yet
14:54:51  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well i am wrong. they can reach every SLH
14:57:07  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> made a messy merge at the 10 main drop, but seems at least better than the PBS merges :D
14:57:53  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> this shouldnt be a to 3 merge at all
14:58:04  <PublicServer> <Anson> the pathes for the two new lanes are very long around the BBH ... thus trains prefer the direct path right through its center -> using the first 4 or 5 lanes
14:58:10  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i experimented with that station in singleplayer
14:58:33  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> 10 drop ?
14:58:39  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> its just hard to rebuild in MP woithout causing a massive jam
14:58:41  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> jop
14:58:55  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> yup, that's why i didnt do that instead :D
14:59:55  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> surprised that the 3 entrance lanes can take the traffic tho
15:03:17  <PublicServer> <Anson> i changed the sinals a bit now ... longer gaps for the inner choices, and thus more trains select the outer new lanes
15:04:47  <PublicServer> <Anson> the trains have nice short loading times :-)
15:05:02  <PublicServer> <Anson> only 3 platforms per lane are needed to take all their traffic
15:07:44  <PublicServer> <Anson> maybe (sometime in the future) the entrance to drop10 could be rearranged ... only merging 7 to 4 instead 7 to 3, since the 12 platforms should be good enough for 4 lanes
15:10:52  <Fehlersturm> how strictly does CL 1.5 need to be obeyed? can i sometimes disregard it on a single line to a single loading statioN?
15:11:29  <PublicServer> <Anson> CL1.5 needs to be used on all mainlines to have max speed on them
15:11:39  <PublicServer> <Anson> sidelines are less strict
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15:26:52  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> do you always play your maps with these big primary drops?
15:27:35  <PublicServer> <Anson> "you" ? i am also relatively new :-)
15:27:42  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> same :D
15:27:44  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> ok
15:27:50  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i didnt know
15:28:04  <PublicServer> <Anson> but on most maps, we have other trains with much longer loading times
15:28:08  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> but judging from the savegames that i've been looking quite a bit at
15:28:18  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> to me the newb. it seems like everyones around since forever
15:28:21  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> there's usually big stations
15:28:27  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> for the whole map
15:29:01  <PublicServer> <Anson> a rule of thumb is that you need X or X+1 platforms when trains have X loading stages
15:29:27  <PublicServer> <Anson> if you multiply 4 lanes with 7 loading stages, you easily get 28 platforms :-)
15:30:17  <PublicServer> <Anson> on this map, it would only be 4 lanes times 3 loading stages = 12 platforms, and you see that it works very well :-)
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15:32:15  <PublicServer> <Anson> the length of the station looks big too, but it is needed for a drop, some refitting depots and then the puckup ... thus all games with refitting have stations of length 2*x + 15 (for TLx) at least
15:34:09  <PublicServer> <Anson> if you want smaller stations, you need more stations, but having many stations to drop the same type of cargo would make networks very easy ... just like having only 1:1 connections between a mine and a power plant (or 5 lines for 5 mines and 5 powerplants) :-)
15:34:51  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well. you just need the additional rule of far away drop
15:35:21  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i am always wondering how a huge ring would cope
15:35:27  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> wouldnt need a BBH
15:35:37  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> just one huge circular ML
15:35:43  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> and SLHs
15:36:49  <PublicServer> <Anson> we recently had a map where all mainlines had to be circular, creating a network of loops :-)
15:37:19  <PublicServer> <Anson> as additional challenge, SLHs had to be above and BBHs below the snow line :-)
15:38:21  <PublicServer> <Anson> if you want to do such a large ring, just suggest such a network plan when the next map starts
15:38:31  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> aha!! you uys had a map?
15:38:45  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> so it is you after all :-)
15:39:07  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> yeah ikinda start to get bored with this map tbh
15:39:39  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> since i am not that mush of a BBH builder by now.
15:40:03  <PublicServer> <Anson> look at the sign !!NETWORK PLAN!! ... every map on this server starts with a map, some money maker, and people submit plans, then voting and finally building
15:40:53  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh yeah. i got that. i am well behaved. so i read the getting started section in the wiki :-)
15:41:33  <PublicServer> <Anson> submit your plan on next map, and we might end up with one gigantic ring :-)
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15:44:03  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> another one would be a high desity ML where you create windows by blocking single lines for a short while. and then fill those windows with compressed blocks of trains from the SL
15:44:13  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> abit like real networks work
15:46:51  <PublicServer> <Anson> that sound similar to PZG13 or PZG2013 :-)
15:47:21  <PublicServer> <Anson> but i think that it would require too special technics for this server
15:47:56  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> not so shure. just a bit of logic
15:49:02  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> can we build input buffer depots?
15:50:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> depots always should be invisible
15:51:26  <PublicServer> <Anson> thus they need to be either behind a terminus or behind a reverser
15:52:32  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> gah don know howto build
15:53:29  <Fehlersturm> whats the name for depots like that?
15:53:37  <Fehlersturm> so i can look it up in the wiki
15:54:18  <PublicServer> <Anson> look for keywords like "conditional overflow"
15:54:32  <PublicServer> <Anson> there are 3 blog articles in the series
15:55:05  <PublicServer> <Anson> eg @@ABR04
15:55:06  <Webster> Advanced Building Revue 04: Overflows at #openttdcoop -
15:58:06  <PublicServer> <Anson> look at !something like this
15:59:04  <PublicServer> <Anson> that depot is now invisible
15:59:16  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> but that depot is reachable no?
15:59:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> not from the mainline
15:59:57  <PublicServer> <Anson> there is no rail between incoming lane and the depot ... count the rail pieces :-)
16:00:48  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh. trains reverse in this small stub and thn get into depot
16:01:14  <PublicServer> <Anson> trains come in, pass the first platform when the signal is red, pass the second, can't go to the depot either, thus go into the reverser ... then can't go into used platforms again and go to the depot
16:02:24  <PublicServer> <Anson> then they wait in the depot until one of the 2way platform signals turns green ... since every depot has an internal implicit signal for its exit ... in this case an entry signal to match the platforms exit signals
16:05:39  <PublicServer> <Anson> this version is just a simple and small version, should be mostly used at the start of a new map
16:06:41  <PublicServer> <Anson> probably most useful on the welcome server since it avoids problems when you are afk ... but on this server, there should always be someone to take care of problems like increased production or queuing trains
16:07:35  <PublicServer> <Anson> if you read the advanced building reviews, there are much more complicated (and much better) overflows :-)
16:07:41  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> is it frowned upo to build these?
16:07:59  <PublicServer> <Anson> to see one in this game, look at the station where we had the problems before, with the bad signals
16:08:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> can you have a look at !something like this again?
16:08:21  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> k
16:08:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> what shall that do ?
16:08:57  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well does tha fake station part at the end of PF trap
16:09:21  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> hide the depot?
16:09:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> oh, didn't see the station tile ... i always have them on transparent
16:10:52  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> more like this
16:11:02  <PublicServer> <Anson> now, there is no path to the fake station tile#
16:11:44  <PublicServer> <Anson> now there is, but it is useless ... trains will directly enter the correct station
16:11:46  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> depot  has a combination of path + pre signal on its exit right?
16:12:12  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> just make it forced then
16:12:22  <PublicServer> <Anson> no fixed signal ... it just matches what is outside
16:12:25  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> ok
16:12:57  <PublicServer> <Anson> at the other station, the depot has an implicit entry signal since there are exit signals at the platforms
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16:13:35  <PublicServer> <Anson> at your new depot, it would be just a normal block signal
16:14:50  <PublicServer> <Anson> all yellow rails are one block
16:15:04  <PublicServer> <Anson> thus only one train enters and the depot makes no sense
16:15:46  <PublicServer> <Anson> ouch ... crash almost guaranteed
16:16:13  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> + cant get into depot
16:16:20  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> cause sharp bend
16:16:32  <PublicServer> <Anson> trains from the depot can want to leave up to the signal, and other trains might try to enter the depot -> crash
16:17:02  <PublicServer> <Anson> it is always very risky to have block signals and 2way path signals on the same block
16:18:52  <PublicServer> <Anson> this might work too
16:19:22  <PublicServer> <Anson> but probably needs the split to the reverser directly in front of the other signals
16:19:36  <PublicServer> <Anson> this should work now
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16:20:43  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i sortof still only half understand signaling
16:21:03  <Sturmi> !password
16:21:04  <PublicServer> Sturmi: packer
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16:21:43  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> hai
16:21:49  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> hello
16:21:56  <PublicServer> <Anson> if you know the basic concept of blocks, it is easy ... and blocks also exit on real train networks
16:22:02  <PublicServer> <Anson> hallo
16:22:17  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> what do you not understand?
16:22:51  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> oh, 7lane-bbhwtf is working :D
16:22:57  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> nono. i understand all the rules. they just arent second nature enough to me that i can think up new stuff easily
16:22:59  <PublicServer> <Anson> when you want to have more than a single train on a network without danger of collisions, you need to separate the network into blocks, and each block can hold one train only ... separating blocks by signals
16:23:03  <PublicServer> <Anson> that's all :-)
16:23:34  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> Fehler: Basic understanding + practice => good signalling
16:24:04  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> very much practice + creativity => new signalling concepts
16:24:10  <PublicServer> <Anson> special rules for signals in OTTD : 1way signals cause trains to search for the best path and then go to that specific signal ... waiting at it if it is red
16:24:17  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> all this + insanity => wtf
16:24:49  <PublicServer> <Anson> if you have a 2way block signal instead, there is a setting which causes trains to not use red 2way signals and try another ...
16:25:12  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> another special rule for ottdcoop: place twoway signals only where useful
16:25:26  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> as they can lead to major network isuuses
16:25:27  <AndreasB> everywhere!
16:26:10  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> jup
16:27:13  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> i see you did some optimizin on slh11 anson :)
16:28:24  <PublicServer> <Anson> there was a PBS in front of the bridge
16:28:35  <AndreasB> It's a wonder that BBH works
16:28:40  <PublicServer> <Anson> and that doesn't work unless you use 2wa signals behind it
16:28:46  <AndreasB> Its so big (Thats actually what she said)
16:28:57  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> it doe work, but sometimes it takes ages to switch
16:29:09  <AndreasB> o.O
16:29:13  <PublicServer> <Anson> else the trains select a path and wait at the bridge, and never use the free lanes since they are long, complicated and have penalties
16:29:15  <AndreasB> I never use twoway behind pbs
16:29:21  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> uh, double sbends... ugly
16:29:59  <PublicServer> <Anson> thus i first replaced the 1way with 2way signals which worked, but using presignals instead is even better now
16:30:49  <PublicServer> <Anson> Andreas, look at !noPBS
16:31:13  <AndreasB> okeh
16:31:17  <PublicServer> <Anson> youi see that it works now, sending trains to the left lane when the bridge is used ?
16:31:21  <AndreasB> dont touch me when i do o.O
16:31:41  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> I have no idea what signal pbs is
16:31:41  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> yep
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16:32:13  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> andreas: look at right corner
16:32:23  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> ah
16:32:26  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> that is one way pbs
16:32:45  <PublicServer> <Anson> this was the old version ... PBS and one signal ... trains would wait in front of the bridge
16:32:55  <PublicServer> <Anson> and not use the other lane
16:33:17  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> why is there no signal at all before that bridge?
16:33:33  <PublicServer> <Anson> the bridge was one tile longer before the changes
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16:34:19  <PublicServer> <Anson> now you see the effect of having PBS ...
16:34:26  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> wha?
16:34:40  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> yea pbs with a signal right behind it is crap
16:34:43  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Shouldnt there be signal there?
16:34:50  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> no
16:35:00  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> with a signal there it screws up
16:35:02  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> I always use oneway after pbs
16:35:04  <PublicServer> <Anson> remove the 2way behind the bridge ... make it a 1way only, and trains will again stop at the bridge
16:35:14  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> as close to split as pissible
16:35:17  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> posibløe
16:35:31  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> possible
16:35:45  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Nothing stops @ bridge?
16:36:12  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Or did you mean that it blocks?
16:36:18  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> it works too
16:36:24  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> because it will wait for bridge?
16:36:30  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i think you are talking about the long gaps? they do loadbalancing
16:36:30  <PublicServer> <Anson> there are several small other changes ...
16:36:37  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> What?
16:36:43  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Arent we talking about pbs?
16:36:55  <PublicServer> <Anson> maybe it works because of them, but it is not guaranteed that it will always work by itself
16:37:03  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> andreas we talk about changes at slh11
16:37:13  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> if there are big blocks then the next train cannot enter the same branch immediatly aterwards. and chooses the other one.
16:37:19  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Yes, I am there
16:37:29  <PublicServer> <Anson> trains always used to try using the bridge instead of the free lane
16:37:39  <PublicServer> <Anson> thus they caused a queue and jam
16:37:41  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Theres a >P
16:37:43  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> weird
16:37:46  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Set a twoway before the bridge? o.O
16:38:05  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> no
16:38:10  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> behind the bridge
16:38:16  <PublicServer> <Anson> to many people it looks like a bug, but it is only a feature that is sometimes difficult to understand :-)
16:38:23  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> like this it will screw uo again
16:38:26  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Behind it
16:38:29  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Why?
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16:38:47  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> lagggie lag alggings
16:38:49  <PublicServer> <Anson> as i just explained for normal block signals : 1way causes trains to select a path and then wait at a signal if it is red
16:38:51  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> because trains will try the bridge again
16:39:02  <PublicServer> <Anson> 2way signals cause it to always select a free one
16:39:37  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> So twoway in front of bridge should be the same as putting it behind it?
16:39:41  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> if there is space for block signals at a split, use them :D
16:40:25  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> andreas: depends on the gap
16:40:31  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> What kinda signal is before the bridge now?
16:40:37  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> exit
16:40:40  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> These signals are confusinig
16:40:50  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> #1. Dont use cake as sign als
16:40:50  <PublicServer> <Anson> when you have a PBS and then some 1way after it, trains select where to go and then use the PBS to get a free path to that destination ... and if the path is not free, they wait even when there might be another (longer) path to their destination
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16:41:16  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> That sounds like a problem I had with a station almost
16:41:26  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Trains seemed to go to waiting lane behind station lane
16:41:32  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> instead of going to a free lane
16:41:57  <Sturmi> with pbs, a tain does only reserve the path until next signal
16:42:24  <Sturmi> if there is a train on a possible path, it counts more than a red signal
16:42:24  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> TAINS!
16:42:32  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> >Forget trains, tains is i n the shop
16:42:34  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Ducktains
16:42:42  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> snailtains actually
16:42:45  <Sturmi> oh my god i made a typo
16:42:48  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> :D
16:42:50  <Sturmi> grow up andreas
16:42:58  <Sturmi> (not funny)
16:43:03  <PublicServer> <Anson> yes, sturmi, but to select which path to follow, it looks at the whole situation and sometimes waits for a free path to that destinatiion even when there would be another (longer) track to it too
16:43:05  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Was to me :P
16:43:15  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Grow up? Never! That means I will have to drive responsibly
16:43:20  <Sturmi> correct anson :)
16:44:39  <PublicServer> <Anson> look at Prefingway-on-sea Valley ... it had stuck trains again because of bad signaling
16:44:57  <PublicServer> <Anson> i tried to guess what you wanted to achieve there :-)
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16:45:08  <PublicServer> <Anson> but signals were mesed up
16:45:27  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> signals wer only remains of some overflow logic
16:45:37  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> which i already changed
16:46:12  <PublicServer> <Anson> look at the station exit of the livestock part now ... i reverted my fix there
16:46:14  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> originally there were only normal block signals
16:46:28  <PublicServer> <Anson> a 2way combo instead of a 1way entry ...
16:46:42  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> noone likes to connect farms cause its to much work making the orders
16:46:54  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> i do like it :D
16:47:04  <PublicServer> <Anson> when the big SLH jammed, and the jam came to these tunnels, trains started being stuck in the reverser
16:47:06  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> and wood trains have even more orders :D
16:47:22  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> we should just use feeder trains and have a few farmgoods pickup stations
16:47:28  <Jam35> !Password
16:47:29  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> noone likes wood either
16:47:34  <Jam35> !password
16:47:34  <PublicServer> Jam35: gulled
16:47:35  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> you dont
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16:48:02  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> we have a Jam!
16:48:04  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> no. look at industries
16:48:11  <PublicServer> <Jam35> ello
16:48:13  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> noone likes
16:48:15  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> hi Jam :)
16:48:17  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> hello
16:48:29  <PublicServer> <Anson> like now
16:49:01  <PublicServer> <Anson> sturmi, do you see the problem ? .-)
16:49:11  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> yes
16:49:17  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> saw it
16:49:39  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> lets go back to normal signals
16:50:47  <PublicServer> <Anson> you see what happens with normal signals ?
16:51:01  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> twoways should do the job
16:51:23  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> arrgh
16:51:33  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> ok you won anson :D
16:51:51  <PublicServer> <Anson> it goes back and forth until one tunnels is free ... ugly looks, but works :-)
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16:52:59  <PublicServer> <Anson> now trains wait until one tunnel is free ... a bit slower, but looks better ... andanyway, it happens only if a jam blocks tunnels too long :-)
16:54:29  <PublicServer> <Anson> when i saw the problem, 90 trains were waiting in the overflow depots since a train was stuck in the reverser ... and everything caused by the jam from the bridge with the PBS signal and only 1way behind it :-) :-) :-)
16:54:44  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> ouch
16:55:37  <PublicServer> <Anson> i also changed the signals in the logic lines ... from 1way combo to 1way exit
16:56:39  <PublicServer> <Anson> thus trains from the depots were allowed to leave it more often, ignoring the exit signals at the end of the platforms
16:56:49  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> true
16:57:15  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> young padawan has still a lot to learn about signalling :D
16:57:49  <PublicServer> <Anson> hehe, those all are problems that i had to solve on my own network during the last few maps :-)
16:57:53  <PublicServer> <Jam35> just make the entry PBS and lose the exits :p
16:58:19  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> i havent played for half a year
16:58:23  <PublicServer> <Anson> on the next map, you explain it to the next one (fehlersturm?) :-)
16:58:33  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> :D
16:58:55  <PublicServer> <Anson> he is justz trying to learn about overflows and hidden depots :-)
17:00:41  <PublicServer> <Anson> Fehlersturm, are you still there ? :-) look at the hidden depots at !xxxx ... they are part of the advanced overflow that sturmi built :-)
17:00:59  <PublicServer> <Jam35> where am I looking? Prefingway-on-sea Valley?
17:01:02  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> k
17:01:06  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> better start with the simple overflow
17:01:13  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> on the other side of ML
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17:01:31  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> (less wtf)
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17:02:14  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> is that to mitigate jams?
17:02:22  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh i see
17:02:28  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> one tuned farm
17:03:02  <Sturmi> if the production drops or the exit jams, such an overflow prevents jams on the entry
17:03:02  <PublicServer> <Anson> if trains queue up to !yy, they start using the reverser there and go to the overflow depots
17:03:20  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> yeah i see the "redstone"
17:03:30  <PublicServer> <Anson> advanced logic blocks them in front of that depot until there is no more train in the station and more trains are really needed
17:03:41  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> at the start thei station droppped production an jammed back until the ML (!)
17:03:45  <PublicServer> <Anson> too much minecraft :-) LOL
17:04:13  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> you think that is redstone?
17:04:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> Sturmi probably didnt pick red purr on accident either
17:04:53  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> now its yellowstone :p
17:04:57  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> :-)
17:05:52  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> i picked purr because it makes junctions better to see
17:06:07  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> color was by accident
17:06:18  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> accident or subconcious
17:06:30  <PublicServer> <Anson> but be careful when you use several different railtypes (including different colors of purr) for logic lines ... sometimes, they stop propagating signal states properly across railtype changes and thus the logic circuit stops working
17:06:40  <PublicServer> *** AndreasB has left the game (leaving)
17:06:44  <PublicServer> <Jam35> I think the release mechanism is flawed in that it will release trains when platforms are empty
17:06:56  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> as you see at !junction, you have to be careful how to place the logic lines
17:07:08  <PublicServer> <Jam35> it should probably just check the bay in front
17:07:14  <PublicServer> <Jam35> and have prio
17:07:52  <PublicServer> <Jam35> if the bay in front is free therefore there is space ahead
17:08:02  <PublicServer> <Jam35> not necessarily if the platforms are free
17:08:21  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> hm, sounds better
17:08:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> it now checks the entire block of all platforms ... possible since a PBS is used for entry
17:09:01  <PublicServer> <Jam35> but what about the space inbetween?
17:09:23  <PublicServer> <Anson> and when a train just barely left the last used platform, the logic enables the next train to come
17:09:45  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> you could have a train driving to the station in the time the others load.
17:09:54  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> now they have to finish loading.
17:10:02  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> then train starts from depot
17:10:04  <PublicServer> <Anson> yes, that's a small problem ... but when the station is completely empty, more than one train may be released without harm
17:11:34  <PublicServer> <Anson> but with those many tunnels, it would be difficult to get another lane near the entrance from the depots
17:12:36  <PublicServer> <Anson> earlier, a jam had caused 50 trains in each depot, and it took already quite some time to release them all ... with your suggestion of a prio and releasing them only one by one, it would have taken ages
17:13:35  <PublicServer> <Jam35> you are only releasing one by one?
17:13:48  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> ok, now it will release trains when the waiting bay is free
17:14:11  <PublicServer> <Anson> not currently, but if you add the full logic of reversers with prio etc, it would be one by one
17:14:34  <PublicServer> <Jam35> what? :)
17:15:05  <PublicServer> <Anson> what did you do ??? now they are released too often, and loop around the depot
17:15:07  <PublicServer> <Jam35> release would be no different except at a better time
17:15:23  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> they release when one is let into the station
17:15:37  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> i test jams suggestion
17:15:47  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> only raeding the waiting bay
17:15:49  <PublicServer> <Jam35> then something else gets there first
17:15:52  <PublicServer> <Anson> the incoming lane is already full, and still you release trains
17:15:54  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> which doesnt work as good
17:15:56  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> need combo/exit at waiting bay ?
17:16:14  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> are there new grfs where you can just have signals which are gates? logic gates seem a bit cubersome in their current implementation. atleast having a small  inverter would be neat
17:16:24  <PublicServer> <Anson> when there are trains already waiting, no more trains may be released
17:16:36  <PublicServer> <Anson> only if the platforms are empty
17:18:04  <PublicServer> <Jam35> may I do something ? if you don't like it, put it back
17:18:10  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> ofc
17:18:16  <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined company #1
17:18:24  <PublicServer> <Anson> also something else was changed ... look at the depot, where a train is trying desperately to get out
17:18:34  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> yea thats weird
17:18:40  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> dunno what causes this
17:19:02  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> ah i found it
17:19:10  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> i movet the waypoint
17:19:16  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> to before the overflow
17:19:26  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> now it tries to reach teh waypoint
17:20:12  <PublicServer> <Anson> jam, if it doesn't work, YOU reverse the changes, ok ? :-)
17:20:50  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> he wants to add prio for incoming trains
17:20:58  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> have that on the other wheat overflow
17:21:08  *** eirc has joined #openttdcoop
17:21:28  <eirc> hi
17:21:31  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i think he wants marmelade
17:21:38  <PublicServer> *** Djanxy has joined company #1
17:21:47  <eirc> !help
17:21:47  <PublicServer> eirc:
17:21:59  <eirc> how do i join the public server?
17:22:14  <eirc> !password
17:22:14  <PublicServer> eirc: reamed
17:22:16  <eirc> :)
17:22:30  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> my signs - wont that make it release only when there are a tunnel free ?
17:23:08  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> might not be the optimal solution, just curious
17:23:27  <PublicServer> *** eirc joined the game
17:23:31  <PublicServer> <eirc> hi
17:24:25  <PublicServer> <Anson> Djanxy, you think too small ... the whole lane needs to be checked for trains
17:24:47  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> yeah i guess :D
17:25:25  <PublicServer> <Anson> including some part of the prio in front of the entire overflow loop, etc
17:26:01  <PublicServer> <Jam35> man no space
17:26:12  <PublicServer> <Anson> since PBS is used at the tunnels, a single check is good enouigh for the entire block which includes both tunnels :-)
17:26:14  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> whats your goal jam
17:26:42  <PublicServer> <Jam35> get a small prio there
17:27:50  <PublicServer> <Jam35> that should do it
17:28:12  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> no check at the station ?
17:28:22  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> apart from the tunnel at the depot at least :D
17:30:33  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> can someone nuke !this goldmine.
17:30:43  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> it is where i want to build my SLH
17:30:45  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> jam you forgot a pf trap
17:31:00  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> (added it)
17:31:43  <PublicServer> <Jam35> where sorry
17:31:50  <PublicServer> <Jam35> 2 way should be wnough
17:31:54  <PublicServer> <Jam35> *enough
17:32:13  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> no, apparently not
17:32:29  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> they didnt like the overflow and waited instead
17:32:55  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> see?
17:33:01  <PublicServer> <Jam35> mhm
17:33:28  <PublicServer> <Jam35> yes it just needs the 'arrow'
17:33:30  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> an arrow in the overflow tricks them
17:34:00  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> half arrow would be enough, but i like it complete^^
17:34:50  <PublicServer> <Jam35> so same other side?
17:35:01  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> looks good
17:37:15  <PublicServer> *** Djanxy has joined spectators
17:37:31  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> please someone !this goldmine. it makes me so mad... probably fair punishment for terraforming so much.
17:38:06  <PublicServer> <Jam35> oh man, I dont have op sorry
17:38:16  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> wait for it to die
17:38:34  <PublicServer> <Jam35> sign it first is the way to go
17:38:40  <PublicServer> <Jam35> lesson learned :p
17:39:14  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> also drag able signing plox.
17:39:54  <PublicServer> <Jam35> they don't want people to spam that it multiplayer
17:39:58  <PublicServer> <Jam35> which is fair
17:40:57  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> did you terrafrom that whole hill?
17:41:23  <PublicServer> <Anson> lol ... train leaves the waiting bay of the overflow, joins the line, and 4 tiles later it splits to the reverser to go back to depot ....
17:43:14  <AndreasB> lol
17:43:51  <PublicServer> <Jam35> I would move the depot when it's empty
17:44:06  <PublicServer> <Jam35> (personal preference)
17:44:16  <PublicServer> <Jam35> so the bay is 1tl
17:44:23  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> yep
17:45:11  <PublicServer> <Jam35> nearly there
17:45:27  <PublicServer> <Jam35> needs entry signal
17:45:49  <PublicServer> <Jam35> (or not) :)
17:45:51  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> where?
17:45:58  <PublicServer> <Anson> train 1295 is in the overflow depot and loops around, since it wants to go to the WP and is lost
17:46:17  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> ship the wp order
17:46:23  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> skip
17:46:51  <PublicServer> <Jam35> yes as this is terminus should ideally have lost train escape
17:50:21  <PublicServer> <Jam35> for lost trains
17:50:39  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> there should be no lost trains here
17:50:45  <PublicServer> <Jam35> (should)
17:50:55  <PublicServer> <Jam35> when something gets disconected
17:51:05  <PublicServer> <Jam35> etc
17:51:19  <PublicServer> <Jam35> (and it was just used ) :)
17:51:38  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> didnt see it
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17:53:32  <PublicServer> <Jam35> truth be known, it is probably wiser to expand the drop
17:53:34  <PublicServer> <Jam35> after all this
17:54:08  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> Fehlersturm did you terraform the whole hill?
17:54:16  <PublicServer> <Jam35> overflow should only be needed at pick ideally
17:55:29  <PublicServer> <Jam35> oh it is :)
17:55:36  <PublicServer> <Jam35> soz
17:57:32  <PublicServer> <Jam35> still needs expansion :p
18:00:16  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> no
18:00:23  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> really not needet
18:00:35  <Sturmi> on the ML its always needed
18:00:44  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> its actually quite to muc to do a full 7 split for the small sideline
18:00:58  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well if you look closely the ml has 0 bridges
18:01:16  <Sturmi> ah the bridges are incoming from SL?
18:01:38  <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has joined spectators
18:02:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> but it doesnt fit like that anyway
18:02:33  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> why not
18:03:23  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> cause its unwieldy. its much better having 5 long bridges and always have two mls crossing diagonaly
18:04:09  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> btw, next time dont terraform the whole place... thats ugly. build with the terrain
18:04:39  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> or to speak with andreasB's words: its cheating
18:04:48  <V453000> dutch terrain
18:05:03  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> no, that would be below sea level :D
18:05:15  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> hi V
18:05:27  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> yeah well. i got a punishment goldmine for my terraforming
18:08:50  <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has left the game (general timeout)
18:08:51  <PublicServer> *** Jam35 has left the game (connection lost)
18:10:33  <V453000> !password
18:10:33  <PublicServer> V453000: eagles
18:10:55  <PublicServer> *** V453000 joined the game
18:10:56  <PublicServer> <V453000> heyoo
18:11:02  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> yoyo
18:12:16  <PublicServer> <V453000> I suppose the new nuts ships are a good feature? XD
18:15:34  <PublicServer> <V453000> uhmm
18:15:44  <PublicServer> <V453000> are you guys aware that other than wetrail tracks reduce train stats?
18:16:07  <Sturmi> in which way?
18:16:29  <PublicServer> <V453000> in the direct way
18:16:47  <PublicServer> <V453000> read changelog :)
18:16:57  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> do what?
18:17:09  <PublicServer> <V453000> ?
18:17:23  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> << cant read
18:17:41  <PublicServer> <V453000> well you are missing information on how nuts works not me :)
18:17:59  <PublicServer> <Anson> the BBH probably still needs testing, and that can be done easier with colored rails
18:18:39  <PublicServer> <Anson> too big a mess when all is watered :-)
18:18:47  <Sturmi> well, we (that is mfb in first place) want to keep the colors if the test fails and stuff needs to be changed
18:19:07  <PublicServer> <V453000> what test would fail, you connect stuff Y/N :D
18:19:18  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> lol
18:22:04  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> y of course. merge is just not needet right now.
18:22:26  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> also i get to build anotherone for the second SL :-)
18:22:48  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> why would you want to rebuild the split?
18:22:50  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> it works
18:23:04  <PublicServer> <eirc> `
18:23:04  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> no not the split
18:23:14  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> the merge we are reworking here
18:23:28  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> ok and its already big enough
18:24:26  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> isnt it quite compact for a 7x7 merge?
18:24:36  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> 7x7??
18:24:57  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> the sideline has max 3 lines
18:26:16  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> yes. ofc the 7 towards the SL. will be split from one SL
18:26:32  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> so whay do you need more?
18:27:07  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> there is another sideline.
18:27:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> but ofc i can just bridge the SL over
18:27:37  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> yes, keep it simple
18:27:48  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> no need for a twosided merge
18:33:06  <PublicServer> *** eirc has left the game (leaving)
18:35:50  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> gah
18:54:36  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> you rebuild ML i do SL connection?
18:54:44  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> y
19:02:02  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> ofc
19:03:14  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> still the same
19:03:44  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well it will not be this high frequency.  and they lose almost no speed from CL 1
19:04:19  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> they dont lose speed, but they lose speed
19:04:41  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> get used to proper building, makes it easier when it is needed
19:04:56  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> (says teh messy builder himself)
19:10:03  <PublicServer> *** V453000 has left the game (general timeout)
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19:11:11  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> was good before
19:11:18  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> now it is too short
19:11:28  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> what?
19:11:34  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> cut it was CL 1
19:11:53  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> ok but bay too short
19:12:15  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> perfect for cl3
19:12:21  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> when pbs is used
19:13:10  <Fehlersturm> most likely Anson will come along and disaprove of our PBS usage anyway.
19:14:03  <Sturmi> can be done with block signals too but needs some changes in layout
19:14:05  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> why do you fill that up with  signals so much?
19:14:21  <Sturmi> to fill bays once they are free
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19:14:41  <Yuuray> !password
19:14:42  <PublicServer> Yuuray: palate
19:15:05  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> and with use of twoway signals at teh end of a pbs block obs works
19:15:07  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i dont think we will have that kind of traffic here
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19:20:20  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> just a little bit better, but still not good
19:20:47  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well i would remove the signals for the bays.
19:20:57  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> than they cannot all go to the same lane
19:24:23  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> heh, looks like that signal trick works :D
19:27:12  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> explain your prio. / i dont understand which lane gets prio
19:27:30  <AndreasB> Could an SRNW be "Go to ENTRY, go to DROP" ?
19:27:31  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> k
19:27:50  <AndreasB> nvm, il use orders
19:27:51  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> it prevents trains from B entering that lane, when a train comes from A
19:27:51  <AndreasB> lol
19:28:04  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> because C is too short
19:28:12  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> could also be a entry sugnal there instead of combo?
19:28:18  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> on B
19:28:22  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> ?
19:28:28  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> ofc
19:28:30  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> k
19:28:39  <Sturmi> Andreas our orders are not srnw
19:28:44  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> thought there was some specific magic to combo signal
19:28:58  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> there is some specific magic
19:29:08  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> as it is a combined entry/exit
19:29:15  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> but has no effect here
19:29:25  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> yes. but in this case that doesnt metter
19:29:27  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> ^^
19:48:09  <tneo> !password
19:48:09  <PublicServer> tneo: malady
19:48:31  <PublicServer> *** tneo joined the game
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19:51:34  <Sturmi> too much for you ?D
19:51:40  <tneo> where is ottdcoop heading with wet rails :-(
19:52:00  <V453000> fuck off tneo :)
19:52:11  <V453000> how do they influence openttdcoop at all
19:52:27  <tneo> why always so offensive V453000 what did I do to you ?
19:52:39  <V453000> im not offensive :)
19:55:06  <V453000> but perhaps you coming and always complaining how everything is terrible here is suggesting you assume I should be offensive
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19:57:46  <tneo> that is most likely, because it has been a while since I played a game and have fond memories of playing and with those memories certain associations. So whenever I log in those associations aren't being met and leads to disappointment, which I express
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19:58:20  <Sturmi> we cant do the same every time... would be boring
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19:59:05  <V453000> things change as always, but saying wetrails are a key of disappointment is really wtf :)
20:01:38  <tneo> when i logged in it was more WTF!! :P
20:02:10  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> would it be less wtf with normal rail?
20:02:29  <tneo> yes, because that is what I was expecting not the canals :)
20:02:43  <V453000> :D
20:03:03  <V453000> since when is wtf bad though
20:03:04  <tneo> I've been out a while of the game and missed the latest developments, there is no blog about the wetrails, so I was surprised
20:03:28  <V453000> nothing to blog about regarding those :)
20:04:32  <V453000> the more wtf the better, that is basically the only way to new developments and new fun ... that hasnt changed ever. :)
20:04:43  <tneo> :)
20:05:16  *** uliko has quit IRC
20:05:18  <V453000> and yes I am responsible for the ultra visual wtf of watery rails, but dont blame openttdcoop on that :D
20:05:20  <tneo> when will a new commence, this is running on its end it seemed
20:05:39  <V453000> I actually am not too sure if this is the end
20:06:16  <tneo> ok, let me now by highlight please, so I can catch up again. Like to join in again :)
20:06:32  <V453000> excellent, I will if I can remember
20:06:47  <tneo> thx
20:06:52  <V453000> you can always start a new pro zone game if you want though, it is public now
20:06:56  <PublicServer> <Djanxy> RIP
20:07:26  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> yea, u fucked up :D
20:08:48  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> wtf?
20:20:23  <V453000> anyway gnite
20:20:28  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> nite
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20:36:47  <BiG_MeEcH> goodnight V4530000!
20:37:43  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> could also use 2 blocksignals
20:37:51  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> yep
20:37:55  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> that is correct
20:39:01  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> where do your trains come from when they go to primaries?
20:39:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> farm from SLH01
20:39:29  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> nope
20:39:32  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> COAL FROM DROPXX
20:39:39  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> it comes from SLH-Drop
20:39:46  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> yeah thats what i meant
20:40:00  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> theres no way to your farm
20:40:06  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> from drop
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20:44:32  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> cl 0,5 is till awful but works :D
20:44:43  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> *still
20:45:05  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> as you can see this is a smalltown sideline. they didtn even have money for 2 lines when they build it
20:45:15  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> :D
20:51:25  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> hm, funny overflow
20:51:35  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> but that depot is not hidden
20:52:01  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> aw crap you are right ofc
20:52:08  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> (deosnt matter in this game, but can do major wtf in other situations)
20:52:22  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> let me try something
20:52:32  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> now it is isnt it?
20:52:44  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh but impossible 90 deg turn
20:52:51  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> into station :-(
20:52:53  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> yes, but now the station is hidden :D
20:53:07  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> try away then
20:54:47  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> this could work
20:55:11  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh yeah
20:55:17  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> :-(
20:55:20  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> nope :(
20:56:27  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> still no
20:57:50  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well we could move station EN by one and swap entry/exit lane then there would be enough space...
20:58:20  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> this would be the easiest solution
20:58:23  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> k
20:58:31  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> or no, wait...
20:58:49  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> there is another very compact way...
20:58:53  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> actually
20:59:08  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> no
20:59:11  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> forget it
20:59:25  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> look at plundhattan woods
20:59:40  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> ultracompact overflow
21:00:00  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> would fit between coalmine and printing works
21:00:10  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh isee
21:02:24  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> MAXIMUM!!!!
21:02:50  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> lets throw some trains at it :D
21:03:12  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> NOOOO!!!
21:03:24  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> why not?
21:03:36  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> well theyll be all in the buffer forever
21:03:38  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> its k
21:03:44  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> they won't
21:03:52  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> the coalmine produces enuff
21:04:20  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> works purrfectly
21:04:34  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> yes its nice and small
21:04:52  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> none of that 7x7 BBH nonsense :-)
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21:05:10  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> good for small stations with small mount of traffic
21:05:17  <PublicServer> <Sturmi> +a
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21:33:46  <Sturmi> night
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21:54:01  <mfb-> hi
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22:00:44  <PublicServer> <mfb> slow server :(
22:02:37  <Fehlersturm> !password
22:02:37  <PublicServer> Fehlersturm: delves
22:03:03  <PublicServer> *** Fehlersturm joined the game
22:03:20  <PublicServer> <mfb> hmm !jams
22:03:38  <PublicServer> <mfb> what is the meaning of those sign at the lines coming from east? close to the hub
22:03:40  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> jop
22:04:06  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh that was in the planning of the new hub
22:04:12  <PublicServer> <mfb> new hub?
22:04:15  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> we used different nomenclature
22:04:25  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> SLH merger
22:04:32  <PublicServer> <mfb> ah
22:04:38  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> so we made a dictionary
22:04:41  <PublicServer> <mfb> 6 5 4 3 2 1 7... okay :D
22:04:59  <PublicServer> <mfb> you can delete signs with ctrl+click by the way
22:07:05  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> is sturmi still here?
22:08:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> holy shit rubberbanding
22:08:25  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> is this my slow CPU
22:08:35  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> or a server thing?
22:13:16  *** happy has joined #openttdcoop
22:17:07  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> hacker!!
22:17:13  <PublicServer> <mfb> :p
22:17:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> seems to work well though
22:17:33  <PublicServer> <mfb> the lines go in that direction anyway
22:18:01  <PublicServer> <mfb> forest died :(
22:20:45  <PublicServer> <mfb> fun fact: our hub is 4 times the smallest map size
22:20:55  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> :-)
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22:29:17  <PublicServer> <mfb> strange
22:29:24  <PublicServer> <mfb> if I open a train window, it is always pinned
22:37:33  <AndreasB> m,fg
22:37:35  <AndreasB> mfb-
22:37:38  <AndreasB> I have seen the light
22:38:34  <AndreasB> In my current game I did LR, and I had to make this iditoic s-turns, and splits to get stuff where I wanted. I have now seen that L_____R
22:38:37  <AndreasB> is the way to go
22:38:45  <AndreasB> 1+5+1
22:39:37  <PublicServer> <mfb> shouldn't be surprising
22:40:47  <AndreasB> :D
22:41:05  <AndreasB> How much nicer to have space to BEGIN WITH
22:41:15  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i am not going to say i hat e WET rails. but i never know on what tile the signals are..
22:41:17  <PublicServer> <Anson> why 1+5+1 ? ... that isn't a fixed amount, but depends on how you build and which TL you have
22:41:28  <AndreasB> AndreasB: Of course
22:41:37  <AndreasB> for me 1+5+1 works great
22:41:38  <AndreasB> TL3
22:41:48  <AndreasB> I think it would work great
22:44:12  <PublicServer> <Anson> with some trains you need less, with others you need more space
22:44:46  <PublicServer> <Anson> CL can vary, depending on length of wagons, railtype, tilt, etc
22:45:00  <PublicServer> <Anson> and thus the space between L and R varies too
22:45:18  <AndreasB> Never!
22:45:20  <AndreasB> : p
22:45:22  <AndreasB> ok maybe
22:45:39  <AndreasB> With TL3 I do CL3
22:45:46  <AndreasB> always.
22:45:55  <AndreasB> (almost always)
22:47:19  <PublicServer> <Anson> look at the animal trains ... they need no CL at all :-)
22:47:27  <AndreasB> They are fuhly
22:47:29  <AndreasB> fugly
22:47:50  <AndreasB> Would two TL4 trains deliver twice as fast as one TL8?
22:48:09  <PublicServer> <mfb> define "twice as fast"
22:48:20  <AndreasB> While the first TL4 goes away, TL8 would still be waiting
22:48:30  <AndreasB> Thus you get a faster, and more stable income
22:48:32  <PublicServer> <Anson> and on other train sets, you have shorter wagons, resulting in a lower CL too
22:48:34  <AndreasB> (For competition games)
22:48:42  <PublicServer> <mfb> and more costs
22:48:50  <AndreasB> Anson: All my wagons are 0.5
22:49:30  <PublicServer> <Anson> nuts was specifically created to avoid problems with those "uneven" wagon lengths
22:49:35  <AndreasB> I have a qustion
22:49:38  <AndreasB> questin
22:49:42  <AndreasB> say I wanted 2+2
22:49:55  <AndreasB> would you do 1+4+1+5+1+4+5 ?
22:50:06  <PublicServer> <mfb> no
22:50:10  <PublicServer> <mfb> too wide
22:50:27  <AndreasB> L_ _L_ _ _R_ _R
22:50:44  <AndreasB> Where do you normally need the space?
22:50:54  <PublicServer> <mfb> between the lines space is useful
22:51:00  <AndreasB> L_ _ LR_ _ R
22:51:06  <PublicServer> <mfb> no
22:51:09  <PublicServer> <mfb> LL_____RR
22:51:22  <AndreasB> So you would smack both lines next to eachother?
22:51:23  <PublicServer> <mfb> that is not so wide
22:51:24  <AndreasB> with no spacing
22:51:35  <PublicServer> <mfb> that is how we usually build mainlines
22:51:38  <PublicServer> <mfb> at hubs, the layout may vary
22:51:45  <AndreasB> Because you have space in middle
22:51:47  <AndreasB> and on sides
22:51:54  <AndreasB> thus you dont need space between LL and RR ?
22:52:11  <PublicServer> <mfb> at least not outside of hubs
22:52:52  <AndreasB> yeah, but I mean.. In theory you "have" _ _ _LL_ _ _RR_ _ _
22:53:01  <AndreasB> with LL_____RR
22:53:06  <PublicServer> <mfb> sure
22:53:16  <PublicServer> <mfb> but the first and last ____ can get other constructions
22:53:26  <AndreasB> SLH?
22:53:36  <PublicServer> <mfb> primary industries, whatever
22:53:43  <AndreasB> aye
22:54:04  <AndreasB> As I said, I have been doing stupid stuff to get R under L
22:54:15  <AndreasB> With L_____R
22:54:20  <AndreasB> Its easy as pie
22:54:28  <AndreasB> Just break off to left for example, double tunnel
22:54:32  <AndreasB> Shazam!
22:54:56  <AndreasB> While I have been going off to right, looping around, and going under both
22:55:12  <AndreasB> I mean, what the hell was I thinking? Thats just plain stupid
22:56:54  <PublicServer> <Anson> it is always a matter of situation ... eg on the welcome server, you probably won't have enough space to do that L___L_____R___R ... and also not on hilly terrain etc
22:57:21  <BiG_MeEcH> if anything there would be a space between LL and RR
22:57:35  <AndreasB> how big is it?
22:57:37  <BiG_MeEcH> its easier to double bridge over 1 line
22:57:38  <AndreasB> welcome server
22:57:44  <AndreasB> I'm thinking about going 2048*2048 now
22:57:59  <PublicServer> <Anson> and when you expand that system to triple lines, where do you add those third L and R rails ? outside, to create L___L___L_____R___R___R ? :-)
22:58:03  <mfb-> 1024x512 or something like that
22:58:11  <AndreasB> Anson: dayumn
22:58:27  <AndreasB> Thats a LOT of space
22:58:34  <BiG_MeEcH> if anything you could do LLRR then when you would have a SLH or big merge or whatever you could expand it out to have room in the middle to build
22:58:36  <AndreasB> but
22:58:44  <BiG_MeEcH> otherwise its not really nessesarry
22:58:48  <AndreasB> L__L_____R__R
22:58:54  <AndreasB> Now you have room for stuff
22:59:06  <AndreasB> For an balancer you would need 3 _ right?
22:59:12  <BiG_MeEcH> most prefer LL_____RR
22:59:22  <AndreasB> Where do you put balancer? :P
22:59:34  <PublicServer> <Anson> i think what mech said : keep the lines closer together on long distances, add space when building hubs
22:59:34  <AndreasB> Start dealing with S-turns again?
22:59:42  <AndreasB> yeah true
22:59:43  <BiG_MeEcH> yeah, what anson said
22:59:48  <AndreasB> makes sense
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22:59:51  <BiG_MeEcH> can always make the exit larger for balancing
22:59:55  <mfb-> there is absolutely no point in "balancing" a mainline
22:59:57  <BiG_MeEcH> or merges
22:59:58  <mfb-> balance merges
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23:00:04  <mfb-> if nothing merges, there is nothing to balance
23:00:20  <AndreasB> if you have an SL going onto ML
23:00:45  <AndreasB> I would want those trains coming off there being balanced onto ML
23:00:51  <PublicServer> <mfb> sure
23:00:53  <PublicServer> <mfb> that is a merge
23:00:58  <AndreasB> That is what I ment
23:01:07  <AndreasB> You dont balance an balanced ML ?
23:01:18  <AndreasB> a rebalancer, haha
23:01:24  <PublicServer> <mfb> there is no point in "balancing" straight lines
23:01:42  <PublicServer> <mfb> if the trains can arrive at that point, they can leave without any "balancing" as well
23:01:48  <PublicServer> <mfb> as a straight line has the same capacity everywhere
23:02:08  <AndreasB> eh
23:02:17  <AndreasB> I didnt understand that
23:02:31  <AndreasB> If you have an SL coming joining ML
23:02:34  <PublicServer> <mfb> well, a line cannot carry more than 100% of its capacity
23:02:36  <AndreasB> and you have 2+2
23:02:42  <PublicServer> <mfb> yeah I fully agree for merges
23:02:47  <AndreasB> Sure you would want to balance it between those two?
23:02:54  <AndreasB> Surely*
23:02:56  <PublicServer> <mfb> but do the balancing at the hub
23:02:59  <PublicServer> <mfb> where the joins are
23:03:01  <AndreasB> Well yes
23:03:02  <AndreasB> of course
23:03:06  <AndreasB> where else?
23:03:37  <AndreasB> !password
23:03:38  <PublicServer> AndreasB: squawk
23:03:50  <mfb-> some players build stupid stuff like this:
23:03:56  <PublicServer> *** AndreasB joined the game
23:03:58  <mfb-> first image
23:04:05  <AndreasB> what does it do?
23:04:07  <AndreasB> rebalance?
23:04:19  <mfb-> nothing. it has some limited applications with breakdowns
23:04:24  <mfb-> but even there, the design is crap
23:04:32  <AndreasB> eh
23:04:35  <AndreasB> so it doesnt do anything?
23:04:49  <AndreasB> If you have 75% load on one line
23:04:52  <AndreasB> and 25% on another
23:04:56  <mfb-> it does nothing useful
23:05:00  <AndreasB> Why wouldnt you try to make it 50/50 ?
23:05:00  <mfb-> it slows trains
23:05:14  <mfb-> why would you? just leads to trains waiting somewhere
23:05:37  <AndreasB> :S
23:05:43  <AndreasB> why would they wait?
23:06:18  <AndreasB> Optimal pre-signaled station
23:06:24  <AndreasB> is that a good way to build a station?
23:06:34  <PublicServer> <Anson> "capacity is the same everywhere on a straight line" ... true, if it is absolutely straight, but can vary if it goes up and down, has heavy trains which don't go full speed everywhere, etc
23:06:36  <mfb-> forget all designs there
23:06:49  <mfb-> forget the openttd wiki for any track/signal layouts
23:06:51  <mfb-> really...
23:07:00  <AndreasB> Capacity is the same everyewhere on a straight line..
23:07:09  <AndreasB> So if one straight line is at 75... 25.. bla bla 50..
23:07:14  <mfb-> the Optimal pre-signaled station is not completely crap, but it is not good either
23:07:35  <mfb-> <AndreasB> why would they wait? <- wait for another train to change the line
23:07:41  <mfb-> as trains don't think ahead
23:07:51  <mfb-> 75/25 is perfectly fine
23:07:51  <AndreasB> Surely you can make it switch only if there is room?
23:07:56  <mfb-> both are <100%, done
23:08:00  <mfb-> not really
23:08:09  <mfb-> at least not with reasonable effort
23:08:24  <mfb-> it is possible, but you don't want to use half the map just for logic for those switches, right?
23:08:54  <mfb-> those shifters (top left corner) can do that
23:09:10  <mfb-> but they rarely shift if the trains are not as aligned as they were in PZ13
23:09:12  <PublicServer> <Anson> never change a working system ... same applies to a line : when trains work on the line at one point, there is no need to change something, rebalance etc
23:10:13  <PublicServer> <Anson> only difference might be when trains slow down sometime, eg a long climb with heavy trains ... but then the same still applies, with the addition "capacity is measured at the worst spot"
23:10:52  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Can you look at "!!Stupid design" ?
23:11:02  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Would that be stupid?
23:11:16  <PublicServer> <Anson> thus a line with such a climb would have 100% at that spot and maybe 75% everywhere else ... then the whole line should be balanced so that it starts right away with 75% only and not 100%
23:12:04  <PublicServer> <Anson> what are those diagonals supposed to do ???
23:12:37  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> which ones?
23:12:57  <PublicServer> <Anson> ah, prio ... I'm no longer used to those small signals :-) LOL
23:13:15  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Prio on each side
23:13:22  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Would a train join either side?
23:13:45  <PublicServer> <Anson> it is stupid
23:13:48  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> why
23:14:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> trains would wait at the sign and when one of the ML lanes is free they would join ANY random of them, not that one which became free
23:14:42  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> oh
23:15:00  <PublicServer> <Anson> you also have created one large block, and thus trains on one side of the ML would block trains on the other
23:15:38  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> I guess thats no better
23:15:46  <PublicServer> <Anson> a block is a series of rails which have no signals in between, no matter whether trains can reach those other rails or not
23:15:57  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> how obut now
23:16:27  <PublicServer> <Anson> why do you have a large gap between signal and mainline ?
23:16:45  <PublicServer> <Anson> (marked in red)
23:17:09  <mfb-> ?
23:17:17  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> now then
23:17:38  <AndreasB> also Anson
23:17:52  <PublicServer> <mfb> I tested that, it occurs frequently
23:17:54  <AndreasB> It is my experience that the entry signal cant be that far down, it will have 0 time to accelerate
23:18:01  <PublicServer> <mfb> you can fix it, but then you still have just one train waiting there
23:18:11  <PublicServer> <mfb> while both mainlines might be free
23:18:18  <PublicServer> <mfb> so you are wasting opportunities to join
23:18:41  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> So how would you make 1 train choose first available
23:18:55  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> I dont want it to wait to join just one of them
23:19:11  <mfb-> Anson if slopes are an issue, double the line there (as with bridges)
23:19:29  <mfb-> or make a signal every tile, as done in this game (hub->west)
23:19:45  <PublicServer> <mfb> well you can fix the waiting issue
23:19:52  <PublicServer> <mfb> with a fail-safe mechanism
23:20:10  <PublicServer> <mfb> like that for TL4
23:20:16  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> what would that do?
23:20:31  <PublicServer> <mfb> it makes sure the joining train has green once it reaches the combo signal
23:20:37  <PublicServer> <mfb> as it makes its own green
23:20:47  <PublicServer> <mfb> even if a ML train enters the prio in the wrong moment
23:20:48  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> so.. ML would slow down?
23:20:57  <PublicServer> <mfb> not if the prio is long enough
23:21:20  <PublicServer> <mfb> the train will still wait at the entry signal
23:21:30  <PublicServer> <mfb> until a ML is free
23:21:40  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> So this is a slow join if ML is at near capacity?
23:21:50  <PublicServer> <mfb> not if the prio is long enough :D
23:21:56  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> haha
23:21:58  <PublicServer> <mfb> but then you'll hardly have any trains joining
23:22:09  <PublicServer> <mfb> as your trains are not aligned properly
23:22:12  <PublicServer> <mfb> they have random distances
23:22:22  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> This is the length of this prio?
23:22:30  <PublicServer> <mfb> to get a "full" mainline, you cannot make the prio too long
23:22:36  <PublicServer> <mfb> right
23:22:51  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> So it has to be long enugh for joining tain to speed up
23:22:58  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> but short enough to fill up ML
23:23:08  <PublicServer> <mfb> somewhere between those values :p
23:23:19  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> In a single join
23:23:53  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Where would one put entry signal?
23:24:39  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> here
23:24:41  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> here
23:24:53  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> What is your experience there?
23:25:39  <PublicServer> <mfb> directly at the ML
23:25:46  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> as close as possible
23:25:48  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> in other words
23:25:54  <PublicServer> <mfb> otherwise you should shift the prio detection
23:26:00  <PublicServer> <mfb> or the acceleration is pointless
23:26:10  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> shift it?
23:26:16  <PublicServer> <mfb> but directly at the ML works better in most cases
23:26:46  <PublicServer> <mfb> more like that
23:26:48  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> o.O
23:26:58  <PublicServer> <mfb> because the train needs some time to speed up
23:27:13  <PublicServer> <mfb> = some tiles journey of ML trains
23:27:26  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> hm
23:27:28  <PublicServer> <mfb> but this fails if the train does not stop at the entry signal
23:27:31  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> But that would be better, wouldnt it?
23:27:41  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> aha
23:28:04  <PublicServer> <mfb> sure, you can add a train stopper
23:28:18  <PublicServer> <mfb> +2 trains, more logic lines, ...
23:28:21  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> lol
23:28:28  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> that sounds complicated
23:28:38  <PublicServer> <Anson> problem with acceleration : it only works very good if all trains have same type, same length, same cargo, and also same loading percentage (full, empty, whatever)
23:28:48  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> o.O
23:29:00  <mfb-> yeah, that is another issue
23:29:09  <mfb-> keep acceleration in mind for prio length
23:29:16  <mfb-> but don't rely on some preacceleration
23:29:24  <mfb-> unless you know exactly what you are doing
23:29:36  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> How would you merge a train onto RR there?
23:30:02  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> something like that?
23:30:33  <PublicServer> <mfb> like that, for example
23:30:56  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> but
23:31:02  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> priority for ML ?
23:31:22  <PublicServer> <mfb> sure
23:31:53  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> :O
23:31:56  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> That was fast
23:31:58  <PublicServer> <mfb> that would be perfect for TL5 (but I would make the prio longer)
23:32:13  <PublicServer> <mfb> maybe like that
23:32:19  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> damn
23:32:53  <PublicServer> <mfb> typical TL3-solution
23:32:55  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> dang, you have done this before
23:32:57  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> lol
23:33:27  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> right?
23:33:54  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> what does that horsehoe do?=
23:34:08  <PublicServer> <mfb> it makes the bridge possible
23:34:20  <PublicServer> <mfb> or what do you mean?
23:34:34  <PublicServer> <mfb> ah. longer prio
23:34:52  <PublicServer> <mfb> same concept
23:34:58  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> longer?
23:34:59  <PublicServer> <Anson> i just marked the waiting bays in yellow ... they should be long enough for one train, but not much longer than needed
23:35:12  <PublicServer> <mfb> longer than two signals on the ML
23:35:59  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> So train comes in
23:36:09  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Choses bay for L1 or L2
23:36:19  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> or R in this case
23:36:26  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Then waits to join ?
23:38:56  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> umm, you said it makes it longer
23:39:16  <mfb-> Then waits to join ? <- right
23:39:22  <mfb-> umm, you said it makes it longer <- the prio? sure
23:39:24  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> has anyone a idea  how i could make !flipflop work with TL3
23:39:26  <PublicServer> <AndreasB> Is the green the pri now?
23:39:28  <mfb-> it is the same thing we had before
23:39:34  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> oh hang on
23:39:42  <mfb->
23:39:46  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i think i  have one myself
23:39:58  <AndreasB> looking
23:40:46  <PublicServer> <mfb> one side is not a twoway
23:41:08  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> thats on purpose
23:41:15  <PublicServer> <mfb> okay
23:41:21  <PublicServer> <mfb> interesting idea
23:41:49  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> just TL3 is to short. top branch works
23:42:03  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> ill just need to use both diagonals for the train lines
23:43:45  <PublicServer> <mfb> :D
23:44:11  <PublicServer> <Anson> what are you speaking about ?
23:44:31  <PublicServer> <Anson> i never can follow people when they jump to other locations ....
23:44:38  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> the flip flop which is in ruins atm
23:45:09  <PublicServer> <Anson> ah, flipflop ... i was still at the merges
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23:49:51  <PublicServer> <Anson> hehe, is that a tri-state flip flop, and the train just did the flup ? :-)
23:50:13  <PublicServer> <mfb> I don't think you can build a  tri-state flipflop like that
23:50:52  <PublicServer> <mfb> every train sets all inputs to green
23:50:58  <PublicServer> <mfb> and then one of them to red
23:51:28  <PublicServer> <mfb> somewhere we had V's split...
23:51:54  <PublicServer> <mfb> it checks if all branches are red
23:51:57  <PublicServer> <mfb> and then gives green
23:52:07  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> there you go
23:52:19  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> i just had one combo signal wrong way aroung
23:53:27  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> not my idea sadly
23:53:45  <PublicServer> <mfb> wtf
23:53:51  <PublicServer> <mfb> ah
23:53:54  <PublicServer> <mfb> the lower line is always green
23:53:56  <PublicServer> <mfb> :D
23:55:02  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> the 2 forests are still there
23:55:08  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> nice
23:55:59  <PublicServer> <Fehlersturm> logic gates > making orders twice

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