Log for #openttdcoop on 2nd October 2014:
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00:17:49  <Hazzard> !players
00:17:49  <coopserver> Hazzard: The server is empty, noone is connected. Feel free to remedy this situation
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04:09:46  <Sylf> !password
04:09:46  <coopserver> Sylf: toobar
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05:48:39  <BiG_MEECH> yooooooooooooooooo
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09:05:47  <zxbiohazardzx> !players
09:05:47  <coopserver> zxbiohazardzx: The server is empty, noone is connected. Feel free to remedy this situation
09:07:06  <zxbiohazardzx> !password
09:07:06  <coopserver> zxbiohazardzx: tested
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09:46:49  <JohnK_> !password
09:46:49  <coopserver> JohnK_: switch
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09:47:04  <coopserver> <ZxBiohazardZx> sup sup
09:47:11  <coopserver> <John> hi
10:03:16  <coopserver> <John> 1000 trains!
10:03:24  <coopserver> <ZxBiohazardZx> i need to push more into the network
10:03:39  <coopserver> <ZxBiohazardZx> everything is stuck on coal/wood and i need them to refit themselfs all the way into the gold part
10:03:47  <coopserver> <ZxBiohazardZx> hence huge delay expectancy and more trains
10:03:54  <coopserver> <ZxBiohazardZx> i didnt feel like skipping 28 orders on all of them
10:04:53  <coopserver> <John> yup.. I need to build some logic ones
10:30:51  <coopserver> <John> can anyone increase train limit?
10:31:41  <coopserver> <ZxBiohazardZx> vehicle limit hurts
10:41:16  <V453000> argoneus: no point in arguing about signals :) everybody experienced player knows it
10:41:29  <coopserver> <ZxBiohazardZx> V can you bump vehicle limit to 1250?
10:41:29  <argoneus> V453000: what do you mean?
10:42:11  <V453000> that no matter what you tell them, they will never accept that PBS is bullshit for new players
10:42:17  <V453000> !rcon set max_trains 1251
10:42:22  <V453000> done
10:42:30  <coopserver> <ZxBiohazardZx> thx
10:42:46  <argoneus> V453000: well it works
10:42:50  <argoneus> but I feel like they usually don't undersatnd why
10:42:54  <argoneus> and then they end up with deadlocks
10:43:15  <argoneus> because they expect it to be panaceia
10:43:29  <V453000> the problem is, if you start learning with PBS, it does NOT lead you to the correct solutions
10:43:30  <V453000> only to hacks
10:43:39  <argoneus> well
10:43:43  <argoneus> PBS is great for some things
10:43:44  <V453000> with block signals, it gets broken and is OBVIOUS that you have to separate the blocks
10:43:51  <V453000> which leads you to proper solution
10:43:57  <V453000> I am not saying PBS is bad, or not useful
10:44:04  <V453000> I am saying that it is very harmful for new players
10:44:15  <V453000> Especially the 2-way PBS which is utter nonsense to have as default signal
10:44:21  <V453000> even 1-way PBS would make more sense
10:44:27  <argoneus> 2 way?
10:44:37  <V453000> yes the signal which looks 1-way but is 2-way
10:44:38  <V453000> is default
10:44:42  <argoneus> it is 2way?
10:44:45  <V453000> yes :D
10:44:46  <V453000> see
10:44:51  <argoneus> what's the behaviour from the invisible side?
10:44:52  <V453000> you just proved my point
10:44:56  <V453000> most confusing signal ever
10:44:57  <argoneus> path signal?
10:45:01  <V453000> not exactly
10:45:09  <V453000> it separates block but path goes through it
10:45:17  <argoneus> it does what
10:45:20  <V453000> like ultra specific behaviour that almost nobody knows or uses
10:45:30  <argoneus> 'separates block'?
10:45:33  <V453000> yes
10:45:36  <V453000> for block signals
10:45:58  <V453000> I will write something on signals one day, just dont know which day that will be :D
10:46:08  <argoneus> I'll try writing up a tutorial today
10:46:12  <argoneus> feel free to edit it later :<
10:46:21  <argoneus> or make your own w/e
10:46:22  <V453000> I will probably just write my own
10:46:26  <argoneus> yeah
10:46:26  <argoneus> :D
10:47:08  <planetmaker> V453000, there's a difference between being a two-way signal and a one-way signal which can be passed from the back
10:47:08  <V453000> it can easily become the lehgthy article you wanted to link to :P
10:47:27  <planetmaker> ignoring that difference and claiming there is none, only adds to confusion
10:47:39  <V453000> planetmaker, for the new player the only visible difference is which places the signal can be passed through
10:47:52  <planetmaker> block signals are either two-way or one-way (blocking the other)
10:48:10  <V453000> everybody calls it 2-way PBS, that is just a name
10:48:21  <planetmaker> it is, yes
10:48:24  <V453000> my point is that it is bad for new players, and the worst possible default
10:48:29  <V453000> name is irrelevant
10:48:38  <planetmaker> one-way pbs probably is the better default, yes
10:48:47  <V453000> better, not best, indeed
10:48:54  <planetmaker> best :)
10:49:06  <planetmaker> block signals are advanced compared to the simple rule for one-way pbs
10:49:23  <argoneus> block signals are dumb
10:49:26  <V453000> block signals are easily explained, and intuitive
10:49:27  <argoneus> they don't try to be smart
10:49:34  <planetmaker> argoneus, nor are path signals
10:49:42  <planetmaker> all signals are 100% dumb
10:49:48  <planetmaker> they don't decide *anything*
10:49:57  <V453000> no but explaining path signals and their behaviour is a lot more complicated
10:50:15  <argoneus> doesn't the wiki say
10:50:17  <planetmaker> block signals are not intuitive really. or as intuitive as path signals
10:50:18  <argoneus> that no one really knows how PBS work
10:50:25  <argoneus> or something like that
10:50:36  <planetmaker> path signal: allows passage, if track free to next signal
10:50:49  <planetmaker> block signal: allow passage, if track free to next signal and no train in same block
10:51:02  <V453000> once you get beyond building a single station, path signals and their often unclear behaviour/penalty problems are hell
10:51:03  <argoneus> but block signal doesn't induce any penalties
10:51:03  <V453000> for anyone
10:51:06  <argoneus> or check the path beyond the signal
10:51:13  <argoneus> it just checks the limited area
10:51:16  <argoneus> and does very easy logic
10:51:22  <planetmaker> argoneus, that is totally untrue
10:51:41  <planetmaker> each of your last 4 sentences
10:51:46  <argoneus> doesn't block signal just check the area until the next signal?
10:51:52  <argoneus> and not beyond that?
10:51:57  <planetmaker> no. and no
10:52:23  <V453000> kind of yes? block ahead is occupied yes/no -> red/green?
10:52:23  <argoneus> but it always works like that
10:52:25  <planetmaker> the train has a path it wants to go. The signal is green, if the next block is entirely free of trains
10:52:39  <V453000> pathfinding isnt the thing new players need to care about really
10:52:39  <planetmaker> *The block signal
10:52:48  <argoneus> isn't that what I wrote?
10:52:51  <planetmaker> the path signal is green if the path to the next signal is green
10:52:54  <planetmaker> argoneus, no, it's not
10:53:01  <argoneus> isn't the next block the block until another signal?
10:53:36  <argoneus> if I have 4 lines, then a block signal at the end of each, then a super junction, and then back to four lines, with a block signal at the very beginning
10:53:45  <argoneus> the "entrance" ones will be red if there's a train between the two sets of signals
10:53:48  <argoneus> no?
10:54:35  <planetmaker> a block is the track space after a signal which can be reached without passing any other signal
10:54:48  <argoneus> but that's what I wrote
10:54:51  <argoneus> the area until a next signal
10:54:55  <planetmaker> no :)
10:55:07  <planetmaker> there can be many possible next signals
10:55:10  <argoneus> yes
10:55:18  <argoneus> the area between two signals
10:55:20  <argoneus> no matter how vast
10:55:24  <argoneus> is the range of a block signal
10:55:25  <argoneus> no?
10:55:30  <V453000> or between many signals
10:55:40  <argoneus> yes
10:55:42  <V453000> yes
10:55:47  <argoneus> that's what I wrote all along
10:55:52  <planetmaker> a block can be limited by many signals. As I wrote: it's the space after a signal which can be reached by tracks without passing another signal
10:55:56  <argoneus> it's like
10:56:04  <argoneus> when a train passes a block signal
10:56:05  <coopserver> *** John has joined spectators
10:56:06  <argoneus> it enters a kindergarten
10:56:11  <planetmaker> and a block signal is red, if that block has a train *somewhere*
10:56:13  <argoneus> and when it passes another
10:56:15  <argoneus> it leaves the kindergarten
10:56:16  <argoneus> no?
10:56:22  <argoneus> and this kindergarten
10:56:27  <argoneus> is the only domain
10:56:30  <argoneus> of the entrance block signal
10:56:32  <coopserver> <ZxBiohazardZx> kindergarten anomaly?
10:56:38  <planetmaker> a path signal is red, if the path in that block to its destination is not blocked by another train
10:56:45  <argoneus> a path signal is always red
10:56:49  <argoneus> unless a train wants to pass through it
10:56:52  <argoneus> which is kind of annoying too
10:57:14  <argoneus> when I was a new player
10:57:17  <argoneus> i was confused all the time
10:57:19  <argoneus> "why is this signal red"
10:57:24  <argoneus> because it's a feature
10:57:56  <planetmaker> argoneus, it's the default. Signals are red, if no train wants to go beyond that signal yet
10:58:09  <argoneus> why is that
10:58:12  <argoneus> I doubt that's how it works IRL
10:58:21  <planetmaker> it's the safe way. It#s realistic and works *exactly* that way in RL
10:58:23  <argoneus> trains would be stopping all the time to make sure they can pass
10:58:23  <V453000> it doesnt matter if it is default, or if it works in real life, it is confusing
10:58:28  <argoneus> wait
10:58:31  <argoneus> so trains pass through red signals
10:58:35  <argoneus> and hope for them to be green when they pass them
10:58:36  <argoneus> ?
10:58:38  <planetmaker> no. Nor do they in openttd
10:58:53  <argoneus> last time I checked
10:58:57  <argoneus> it becomes green right when the train passes through it
10:59:03  <argoneus> I doubt that's how it works irl
10:59:07  <planetmaker> it gets green and then the train passes
10:59:13  <hylje_> in openttd, trains can stop instantly
10:59:14  <planetmaker> but not before
10:59:21  <hylje_> so if the signal doesn't turn green it just stops there
10:59:25  <argoneus> yes
10:59:33  <argoneus> but trains irl have to brake much sooner if it's really red
10:59:39  <argoneus> so the path signal should be green a while before the train arrives
10:59:41  <argoneus> no?
10:59:51  <planetmaker> they are. Time in OpenTTD is just compressed enough
10:59:58  <planetmaker> so that you don#t see that time span
11:00:01  <argoneus> doesn't that make it confusing for players though
11:00:04  <hylje_> i believe path signals do turn green once there's a path request to it
11:00:04  <argoneus> when it's red all the time
11:00:07  <argoneus> and then briefly turns green
11:00:14  <planetmaker> well, believe what you want. Or read the code and understand
11:00:22  <argoneus> the new player won't read the code :<
11:00:31  <argoneus> as I said
11:00:33  <argoneus> when I was new
11:00:37  <argoneus> I was wondering why they were red all the time
11:00:42  <argoneus> and how was I supposed to debug my railroad
11:00:42  <planetmaker> but you won't either but won't accept the truth from people who know it either. So believe what you want
11:00:46  <argoneus> if I couldn't see what is green and what isn't
11:00:56  <argoneus> well
11:00:59  <argoneus> time is not compressed irl
11:01:02  <argoneus> so it looks differently
11:01:27  <argoneus> so it's not really realistic :<
11:01:46  <V453000> regardless, the first step to learn the game is to start using block signals, and every single player I taught, it helped.
11:02:13  <V453000> simply because their tracks were mess with PBS
11:02:13  <argoneus> a friend of mine who started a few days ago was using path signals and had deadlocks all the time
11:02:19  <planetmaker> I disagree. One-way Path is easier: place a signal where you want to allow a train to stop. Done
11:02:23  <argoneus> then I explained presignals and block signals and they understood the way it works
11:02:31  <argoneus> and then they didn't have deadlocks even with pat hsignals
11:02:40  <argoneus> ???
11:02:47  <argoneus> they = he
11:03:26  <V453000> you think it is easier planetmaker, practice shows opposite
11:03:45  <argoneus> I'm sure when you know the code and the inner workings
11:03:48  <planetmaker> from what I see in practise it shows exactly that. Perception bias?
11:03:49  <argoneus> it looks much more intuitive
11:03:54  <V453000> easier to get fast results? maybe. easier to understand how the game works? no
11:04:39  <planetmaker> both signal types are part of "how the game works".
11:04:54  <argoneus> then why is it bad if people understand both
11:05:00  <argoneus> I mean
11:05:10  <argoneus> I remember people argumented "block signals shouldn't be in tutorials, they would confuse new players"
11:05:19  <argoneus> how would they confuse them? PBS are much more confusing
11:05:21  <planetmaker> for the mathematical-minded the block signals may seem easier. You can build logic circuits with it and stuff. But it doesn't make them intuitively easier to understand
11:05:22  <argoneus> (imho)
11:05:40  <planetmaker> argoneus, a tutorial should teach the *basics*
11:05:59  <V453000> which is basic block signal, just like it has been in ttd
11:06:03  <planetmaker> and basics don't require that a person leaves with understanding of how to build an ALU with trains in OpenTTD
11:06:23  <argoneus> LOL
11:06:24  <planetmaker> Understanding and mastering use of the oneway path signal suffice to get started. The rest is OpenTTD 201 and beyond
11:06:49  <planetmaker> and the basic block signal in TTD gives you blocking all the time (remember, don#t use one-way block signals then!)
11:07:10  <hylje_> i don't even understand the purpose of the two way block signal
11:08:51  <hylje_> i guess beside terminus stations
11:08:54  <dih> hello planetmaker, hello hylje_ and V453000
11:08:59  <planetmaker> salut dih
11:09:03  <hylje_> hi dih
11:09:08  <dih> how are things?
11:09:24  <V453000> hi dih :)
11:09:41  <V453000> there isnt any hylje_ apart from their special 2way-eol feature
11:09:51  <argoneus> if you put them in terminus stations
11:09:54  <argoneus> wouldn't that make deadlocks
11:10:33  <hylje_> no, they work fine to access dead end platforms
11:10:38  <hylje_> presignals at the entry
11:10:52  <hylje_> so trains don't proceed when all dead ends are occupied
11:10:55  <argoneus> if you use presignals at the entry
11:10:58  <planetmaker> hylje_, you'll then need two-way exit signals
11:10:58  <argoneus> then you should use exit signals
11:11:00  <argoneus> and not block signals
11:11:14  <planetmaker> pre-signals are also block signals -.-
11:11:31  <hylje_> but yeah, vanilla two way block signals have no inherent purpose
11:11:36  <argoneus> when someone says just block signal
11:11:39  <argoneus> I imagine the normal block signal
11:11:45  <argoneus> not the presignal
11:12:21  <hylje_> you could just remove them from the game and replace them with an EOL sign
11:12:58  <planetmaker> dih, busy as usual. How're you? Long time no seen
11:13:24  <V453000> eol only applies when the signal is red hylje_  :)
11:13:41  <V453000> but yeah having some extra graphical feature there when red would make sense
11:13:45  <hylje_> sure the eol sign gets a red light that flashes when active
11:14:53  <dih> I am doing well - our company was aquired so that was where my time went and after work i had not will to do much more.
11:15:09  <argoneus> dih: where do you work?
11:15:17  <dih> now? Thomson Reuters
11:15:34  <argoneus> oh
11:18:20  <dih> why 'oh'?
11:23:39  <planetmaker> dih, so you aquired more responsibility in the merger?
11:25:00  <dih> that is a tricky questions - I was responsible for all IT related stuff - vmware cluster, network, hardware, vpn, accounts ...
11:25:31  <dih> now i am responsible for the hosted applications only - so no hardware or os level involvement
11:25:58  <dih> it is a very different world
11:27:27  <hylje_> yay!
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15:28:25  <fleet75> !password
15:28:25  <coopserver> fleet75: preset
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16:17:04  <V453000> !dl win64
16:17:04  <coopserver> V453000:
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16:21:22  <V453000> !password
16:21:22  <coopserver> V453000: galois
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16:21:39  <coopserver> <V453000> yo
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17:35:45  <Sylf> V:  nmlc ERROR: Image file "gfx/8bpp/x1_COMPOSE_8bpp.png": Palette is not recognized as a valid palette.
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17:52:13  <V453000> the fuck ._.
17:52:38  <Sylf> I'm comparing palettes, and I don't see any difference so far
17:53:20  <V453000> I used the noact from devzone
17:53:27  <V453000> in the palette view was clear difference
17:53:37  <V453000> (missing anim colours)
17:54:03  <V453000> I tried ti re-save with old temlpate
17:54:15  <V453000> (converted colours by noact, saved in the old one)
17:54:32  <V453000> lets see if that does the trick
17:55:49  <V453000> lets see what does Jenkins have to say about that :)
18:03:43  <V453000> Sylf: mystery solved, now it should work
18:03:52  <V453000> I just didnt know how to properly use the noact palette :D
18:04:07  <Sylf> another push coming?
18:11:24  <V453000> try 3 :D
18:11:37  <V453000> it does total wtf things
18:21:00  <V453000> Sylf: what is the current state? release-able?
18:21:31  <V453000> the fixed 8bpp sprites could be worth it
18:21:41  <V453000> + if you did some wtf at the production things
18:22:15  <Sylf> let me check the pallette fix first
18:22:27  <V453000> sure
18:22:33  <V453000> just asking about the state of the code
18:23:02  <Sylf> I thought about something to add last night
18:23:13  <Sylf> I'm trying to remember what it was
18:23:32  <Sylf> But it should be stable
18:23:59  <V453000> well as you like really :)
18:24:00  <Sylf> fixed 8bpp, cargo payment scale, station icons, worker yards won't close
18:24:05  <V453000> btw how did you abort the build ? :D
18:24:14  <V453000> fixed8bpp wont close?
18:24:19  <V453000> eh
18:24:20  <V453000> XD
18:24:27  <V453000> I get it now
18:24:27  <V453000> nvm
18:24:33  <V453000> station icons wont be done yet I guess
18:24:46  <Sylf> I used bunch of opnttd built-in icons
18:25:06  <Sylf> so stuff like wood and iron ore and steel will look more right
18:25:42  <Sylf> mail icon is used for VEHI, so... they're just placeholders
18:26:21  <Sylf> oh right, there's one more thing I want to update
18:26:29  <Sylf> nearby station name support
18:26:46  <V453000> ah great :)
18:38:02  <Sylf> oh right.  I also made a fix so there will only be 1 worker yard per town even if the advanced setting says otherwise
18:40:04  <V453000> that is excellent
18:40:08  <V453000> I didnt even know that is possible
18:40:33  <Sylf> I kind of knew after seeing reddit servers
18:40:48  <Sylf> worker yards on their yeti servers were ridiculous
18:41:12  <Sylf> but the recycling sites on their firs servers still were 1 per town
18:41:31  <Sylf> maybe hotels too
18:42:26  <V453000> got 5 icons already :D
18:42:44  <V453000> :D
19:00:46  <V453000> Sylf: all cargo icons uploaded :)
19:00:53  <Sylf> ok!
19:00:56  <V453000> are in gfx/8bpp/cargo_icons.png
19:01:04  <V453000> o
19:01:10  <V453000> forgot one
19:01:12  <V453000> wtf is that even
19:01:17  <V453000> aha
19:01:19  <V453000> forgot oil
19:01:24  <V453000> and grain is in wrong spot
19:01:26  <V453000> doesnt matter much
19:05:50  <V453000> k all fine now :)
19:06:14  <coopserver> *** V453000 has left the game (Leaving)
19:06:15  <coopserver> *** Game paused (number of players)
19:09:21  <V453000> it is sorted normally, 1A 1B 1C 1X 2A 2B 2C 2X 3A 3B 3C 3AA 3BB 3CC 3X 4X
19:09:27  <V453000> but I guess you can see that :)
19:14:37  <Sylf> kk
19:20:54  *** Brumi has quit IRC
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19:50:06  <fleet75> !password
19:50:06  <coopserver> fleet75: occupy
19:50:14  <coopserver> *** Game still paused (connecting clients, number of players)
19:50:16  <coopserver> *** fleet75 has joined
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20:25:38  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
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20:35:28  <zxbiohazardzx> !players
20:35:28  <coopserver> zxbiohazardzx: There are currently 0 players and 1 spectators, making a total of 1 clients connected
20:35:32  <zxbiohazardzx> !password
20:35:33  <coopserver> zxbiohazardzx: filter
20:35:53  <coopserver> *** Game still paused (connecting clients, number of players)
20:35:55  <coopserver> *** ZxBiohazardZx has joined
20:35:56  <coopserver> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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20:41:17  <coopserver> *** ZxBiohazardZx has left the game (Leaving)
20:41:18  <coopserver> *** Game paused (number of players)
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21:07:28  *** Jam35 is now known as Jam35_
21:53:02  <planetmaker> !fish
21:53:06  <planetmaker> :(
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23:23:52  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
23:41:57  <coopserver> *** John has left the game (general timeout)

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