Log for #openttdcoop on 10th January 2016:
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03:38:17  <Mazur> !pw
03:38:17  <coopserver> Mazur: locate
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11:34:17  <solitairey> ey
11:34:19  <solitairey> @quickstart
11:34:20  <Webster> Quickstart - #openttdcoop wiki -
11:35:39  <solitairey> !password
11:35:39  <coopserver> solitairey: invert
11:36:33  <solitairey> !help
11:36:33  <coopserver> solitairey:
11:36:47  <solitairey> !ip
11:36:47  <coopserver> solitairey:
11:38:14  <solitairey> !dl win32
11:38:15  <coopserver> solitairey:
11:38:17  <solitairey> er
11:38:19  <solitairey> !dl win64
11:38:19  <coopserver> solitairey:
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11:43:40  <solitairey> !password
11:43:40  <coopserver> solitairey: strict
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11:46:36  <solitairey> !password
11:46:36  <coopserver> solitairey: jacket
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11:48:32  <solitairey> that's the laggiest openttd game i've ever encountered lol
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11:49:46  <solitairey> looks like you guysh ave a lot of trains w/o orders
11:50:07  <Arveen> some are self regulating
12:00:22  <V453000> heyo
12:00:39  <Arveen> hey hey
12:03:44  <Mark> morning
12:03:57  <Mark> solitairey: better turn off lost train notifications
12:04:20  <Mark> !pw
12:04:20  <coopserver> Mark: refiid
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12:04:43  <solitairey> looks like chaos to me
12:04:47  <solitairey> but its p good chaos
12:05:01  <coopserver> <Mark> it works pretty well
12:05:09  <coopserver> <Mark> most lost trains are going to slh06
12:05:35  <Arveen> is still something going on in the current game ? it looked kinda finished the last time i took a peek
12:05:53  <coopserver> <Mark> games are never finished
12:05:58  <solitairey> looks like you guys are mostly just striving for maximum efficiency, right?
12:05:59  <Arveen> hehe
12:06:05  <solitairey> not really... pretty stuff
12:06:09  <coopserver> <Mark> they either become to hard to expand or lost interest
12:06:25  <coopserver> <Mark> depends on the plan sol
12:06:30  <coopserver> <Mark> and game type
12:06:43  <solitairey> like terminus stations that are just the basic x-rail in front design
12:06:46  <solitairey> and stuff
12:06:57  <Arveen> !pw
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12:07:21  <Arveen> oh - thats a different game - i thought its still the mars one - haha
12:07:33  <Mark> solitairey:
12:08:38  <solitairey> yee that looks nice
12:08:54  <Mark> built that like 5 years ago
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12:09:01  <Mark> have a look at the archives and junctionary
12:09:19  <Mark>
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13:39:56  <happpy> hi
13:40:04  <ConnorJC> hi
13:40:09  <happpy> how  things
13:40:16  <ConnorJC> good
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14:01:21  <solitairey> Mark: so then, how the game is gonna go is decided at the start. when's the next game?
14:02:38  <V453000> probably quite soon
14:02:55  <ConnorJC> is there anything left to do in the current one?
14:03:09  <V453000> a lot of expanding could be done
14:03:15  <V453000> the game is relatively fresh in that regard
14:03:18  <solitairey> i wanna see a really pretty game
14:03:22  <V453000> but people do not seem to be too interested anymore
14:03:29  <V453000> define pretty :)
14:04:16  <solitairey> pretty
14:04:47  <V453000> you can do this in absolutely any kind of game
14:05:11  <V453000> we almost always have those objects on
14:07:04  <V453000> !
14:07:06  <V453000> !pw
14:07:06  <coopserver> V453000: dotted
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14:07:40  <coopserver> <V453000> yea, this game has them as well
14:07:42  <coopserver> <V453000> just do it :)
14:08:30  <coopserver> *** V453000 has left the game (Leaving)
14:09:08  <ConnorJC> wtf why is there a spot where trains go on the left side
14:12:58  <ConnorJC> I'm watching a train go around in circles not able to find it's destination XD
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14:23:29  <Ramsvs> !password
14:23:29  <coopserver> Ramsvs: easier
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14:25:58  <RocketRidah> @quickstart
14:25:59  <Webster> Quickstart - #openttdcoop wiki -
14:26:31  <RocketRidah> !dl osx
14:26:31  <coopserver> RocketRidah:
14:27:19  <RocketRidah> !password
14:27:19  <coopserver> RocketRidah: pretty
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14:31:53  <solitairey> V453000: yeah, but most of the time people seem to focus on practicality rather than prettyness
14:32:07  <solitairey> like x-track terminus stations
14:32:11  <solitairey> you know the ones
14:32:34  <solitairey> and stuff with ugly 90 degree turns
14:32:50  <ConnorJC> How are those practical?
14:34:02  <ConnorJC> Wouldn't those be less effective than RoRo stations and proper turns?
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15:00:48  <happpy> solitairey   the90 degree turns  ar  not on
15:00:58  <happpy> but year true
15:01:12  <V453000> solitairey: what people focus on does not mean YOU cannot do it better / nicer :)
15:01:29  <V453000> sure, not everybody prefers to build insane amount of eyecandy for a station for 6 hours
15:01:48  <V453000> but you can totally do it, how the station is designed is not relevant
15:01:59  <V453000> terminus with X or without, both can look nice in my opinion
15:07:30  <solitairey> eh, i dont really like x terminus stations, but that's just preference
15:08:14  <V453000> we do not have any rules like "you must or must not use -thing-". Only criteria is that it has to work / not break the rest of the network
15:08:43  <solitairey> yeah except my design is a lot less space efficient than an x terminus
15:08:46  <solitairey> this is how i do it
15:08:55  <solitairey> its admittedly not that great but i like it
15:09:18  <V453000> yeah that is very bad
15:09:24  <V453000> trains will slow down a lot in the short curves
15:09:45  <ConnorJC> Isn't that considered a RoRo station?
15:09:51  <solitairey> i guess it sorta is
15:09:54  <solitairey> it's designed as a terminus tho
15:10:17  <solitairey> this is my roro
15:10:31  <ConnorJC> why 4 depots?
15:10:36  <V453000> if you need the tracks to come back to the way they came from, you just build terminus, not worth doing mess like this
15:10:42  <solitairey> 4 depots optional
15:10:44  <solitairey> 2 usually suffice
15:10:47  <solitairey> or even less
15:10:52  <V453000> yeah this does not make much sense either
15:11:11  <solitairey> the roro? why?
15:11:16  <V453000> 2 platforms is insanely low, and conneting station directly to the main line like this is never going to work properly
15:11:35  <ConnorJC> Couldn't that be a sideline?
15:11:44  <solitairey> 2 platform's my... non-openttdcoop-madness design :D
15:11:45  <V453000> still, same reasoning
15:11:49  <ConnorJC> Although I don't know why it's in 2 directions
15:12:10  <solitairey> it's a 2 way roro
15:12:19  <solitairey> if that makes any sense
15:12:21  <V453000> yeah with 1 platform in each direction
15:12:22  <ConnorJC> Yeah, but what's the point of that
15:12:29  <V453000> which will break as soon as 2 trains come close to each other
15:12:36  <ConnorJC> Why would you need a 2 direction roro?
15:12:52  <solitairey> iunno, for multiple industries / stuff in the same spot?
15:12:54  <V453000> in some extreme cases they can be useful, but rarely
15:13:06  <solitairey> like passengers -------------- [2 way roro] passengers/water -------------------- water pumps
15:13:08  <ConnorJC> Isn't it a rule to seperate industries?
15:13:46  <V453000> solitairey: play on our server for a week and you will learn a lot :)
15:13:57  <solitairey> admittedly i am a beginner at the game
15:14:03  <V453000> does not matter
15:14:14  <solitairey> another 2-way roro i sometimes use
15:14:18  <V453000> people here are friendly, they can teach you
15:14:26  <solitairey> either direction can go to either of the platforms
15:14:34  <V453000> and if you feel like playing your own company, the welcome server just started a new game
15:14:39  <solitairey> no, wait, it can't
15:14:47  <solitairey> i do have a 2 way roro where it can though
15:15:02  <solitairey>
15:15:05  <V453000> the first step you will need is to learn to use signals
15:15:16  <solitairey> with the disadvantage of curving the bypass lines :(
15:15:20  <ConnorJC> There's no prios there if I'm looking correctly
15:15:31  <ConnorJC> Curves = slowdown
15:15:38  <solitairey> yeah thats a problem
15:15:42  <V453000> prios are not mandatory but using block signals in general to understand how signals work, is a key thing to do
15:16:02  <solitairey> i mostly just use the kind of signals you see in those screenshots
15:16:12  <solitairey> coupled with one-way signals in certain spots sometimes
15:16:17  <V453000> yeah which is impossible to improve your skills with
15:16:22  <ConnorJC> Are those pbs signals?
15:16:29  <solitairey> ye
15:16:30  <solitairey> not block
15:16:36  <V453000> the real problem here is that things which are "in line" ... aka with bypass lines, you can never expand things well
15:16:52  <V453000> you can even have terrible signals, but you need space for everything to expand
15:17:02  <V453000> placing stuff further from each other is necessary
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15:17:09  <V453000> unless you want to rebuild everything from ground up
15:17:11  <solitairey> yeah i guess ideally the bypass lines would be straight in the middle
15:17:14  <solitairey> or to the side
15:17:17  <V453000> no
15:17:26  <solitairey> (both to one of the sides)
15:17:31  <V453000> the solution is to have a junction which separates the main line to the station
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15:17:39  <solitairey> hmm
15:17:43  <ConnorJC> wouldn't you just want *no* bypass lines
15:18:05  <solitairey> hm?
15:18:33  <ConnorJC> Like, use a sideline with a SLH
15:19:13  <V453000> you do not even absolutely need to go for any kind of BBH/SLH hierarchy like we do, but you totally need some system
15:19:18  <ConnorJC> Like this type of thing:
15:19:24  <V453000> putting everything on the main line is suicidal
15:19:31  <V453000> yes kind of
15:19:41  <solitairey> i have no idea what those acronyms mean
15:19:45  <V453000> lets say the SL leads to the station, and only to that station
15:19:50  <ConnorJC> And then connect the sideline to the station
15:19:52  <ConnorJC> brb
15:19:56  <V453000> it does not matter what they mean either
15:20:08  <V453000> you connect one end to station, and two ends to the main track that you got
15:21:13  <solitairey> hmm
15:21:33  <solitairey> gonna try to whip up a quick example (with a shitty small low capacity junction) to see if i understand what yo umean
15:21:51  <ConnorJC> That way the mainline isn't slowed down by a station connected to it
15:22:12  <V453000> not just slowdown, but just systematic separation and that way you can easily expand what you need instead of nuking it all
15:22:49  <ConnorJC> Is there  a way to generate a completely flat map to test stuff on?
15:23:05  <solitairey> doesnt seem to be
15:23:12  <happpy> year ther  is
15:23:13  <solitairey> though just a really flat temperate seems to work alright
15:23:20  <V453000> well, scenario editor easily
15:24:20  <V453000> also, slowing stuff down is surely good to avoid, but if your lines/stations are slow, you can simply build more of them. But you need to have a system in it. Without system it is hard to expand, often almost impossible ... and without expanding it is inevitable that your stuff is going to jam up
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15:25:32  <solitairey> how about something like this? (version with and without my dumb non-xrail thing)
15:25:47  <solitairey> (junction is jsut a placeholder)
15:26:01  <ConnorJC> That's the idea I think
15:26:15  <V453000> yes, but make the distance between station and main track as long as you can
15:26:19  <V453000> space for future
15:26:21  <ConnorJC> But you'll probably want a better junction as you said
15:26:34  <V453000> also, more than 1 station can be on that line already, just add more smaller junctions there
15:26:35  <solitairey> so i guess the x-rail design is, in the end, better than the not-xrail design?
15:26:52  <ConnorJC> In this case
15:26:55  <V453000> you basically get a kind of tree system
15:27:26  <solitairey> i'll admit it, the only reason i don't like xrail is because the two directions intersect and because the train has to reverse at the station :D
15:27:32  <ConnorJC> Although you can make terminus stations that aren't xrail
15:27:34  <ConnorJC>
15:27:59  <V453000> the whole discussion about X or not X in terminus, is overridden by an extremely simple thing - building one or two more platforms on the less efficient station
15:28:18  <V453000> but I can already tell you that both work just fine :P terminus with X just has smaller footprint
15:28:38  <V453000> that is just normal roro, only turned around stuff
15:28:55  <V453000> do not call roro with a curve behind it terminus, not a good idea :P important is the system of the station
15:29:19  <ConnorJC> It's listed as terminus on the wiki
15:29:50  <Taede> that probably refers to the central set of 6 platforms
15:30:08  <solitairey> i'd say that both designs are easily expandable
15:30:13  <V453000> as Taede says
15:30:29  <V453000> solitairey: now expand the amount of the main tracks from 2 to 6
15:30:43  <solitairey> there's people who use more than 2 main tracks?
15:31:17  <V453000> we use up to ... say, 16?
15:31:33  <solitairey> gosh
15:31:57  <Taede> have you tried downloading a game from the archives?
15:33:42  <solitairey> nope
15:33:56  <solitairey> also i guess this SORTA works if i use a (if only slightly) less stupid junction
15:34:08  <V453000> yes basically
15:34:16  <V453000> except a proper junction would be MUCH bigger
15:34:32  <solitairey> ye
15:36:11  <solitairey> :D?
15:36:23  <V453000> .. :)
15:36:59  <solitairey> i didn't leave enough space to upgrade the entire station up to 7-tiles long but that wouldn't be too hard either
15:39:24  <V453000> best way to build a terminus station in terms of platform efficiency
15:39:42  <V453000> in this picture 2 lines in, 2 lines out
15:40:00  <V453000> not super suitable for pickups, but for drops it is perfect
15:42:48  <solitairey> expandable as hell
15:47:51  <V453000> if you guys want to see some progress on new graphics :) working on the bridges ... just the bridge ends now and it should look good
15:48:11  <solitairey> expanded version
15:48:22  <solitairey> max station size, 8 mainline tracks
15:48:45  <solitairey> those look p nice, btw
15:49:27  <V453000> that T junction will break ultra badly, but yes
15:50:00  <solitairey> i'm no junction master
15:50:03  <solitairey> this is the best i can do :P
15:50:15  <V453000> that is why I say you can learn a lot on our servers
15:50:22  <solitairey> also, 8 mainlines actually
15:50:24  <solitairey> er 10
15:50:59  <Mazur> Looks nice, V!
15:51:12  <V453000> :) not done yet
15:51:32  <Mazur> Nice shadows, too.
15:51:36  <V453000> the bridges create a weird and unclear pattern, need to do tweaks, but just to have it working also with semi-transparency is insane
15:53:16  <V453000> hm I cannot apply CC to the semitransparent part :D
15:53:29  <V453000> atm rendering limitation, not sure if openttd could do it
16:02:37  <solitairey> stress test time? :D
16:04:14  <solitairey> fixed stress test time
16:04:21  <solitairey> wouldn't be surprised if the side stations break really fast
16:08:13  <solitairey> or the junction
16:10:07  <solitairey> welp, junction already broken
16:18:09  <Mark> yea thats never going to work
16:23:29  <Mazur> But you see why we build junctions avoiding crossing tracks, bridging/tunneling instead, with only joins and splits where lines meet.
16:31:08  <Mazur> This being essentially our simplest junction:
16:31:42  <Mark> youll never want a level crossing
16:31:51  <Mark> and no joins before splits in the same junction
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16:53:18  <Maraxus> !pw
16:53:19  <coopserver> Maraxus: hurray
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16:55:25  <solitairey> Mazur: but that doesn't keep the mainline straight D:
16:56:15  <solitairey> V453000: btw, what are those holes in the ground in your graphics pack?
16:56:35  <V453000> the brown ones are bulldozed tiles
16:56:38  <V453000> when you use dynamite
16:56:48  <solitairey> o
16:56:52  <V453000> rest is random terrain
16:57:06  <solitairey> neat
16:57:28  <solitairey> might look really weird if you bulldoze a lot at once, though
16:58:34  <V453000> yeah kind of
16:58:37  <V453000> not a big problem though
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17:03:24  <V453000> if it does I can just redo it, or at least make it also greyscale to disturb you less
17:04:01  <solitairey> are you gonna make line-less roads? because i totes want that road the bridge is made out of :D
17:04:37  <solitairey> i wonder how hard it would be to hand-draw a 32bpp graphics pack
17:04:52  <solitairey> how many textures does the vanilla game have?
17:05:59  <solitairey> & also, can one replace textures from other newgrf's as well?
17:06:11  <V453000> line less roads will be for snow and desert probably
17:06:24  <V453000> it would not be very hard to draw 32bpp, you just get photoshop and draw
17:06:37  <V453000> openttd base graphics have about 10 000 images
17:06:42  <solitairey> jesus christ
17:07:10  <V453000> currently BRIX is replacing about 3000 sprites
17:07:23  <V453000> replacing sprites from other newgrfs is not very easy to do
17:07:30  <solitairey> oo, nice! made a lot of progress then
17:07:36  <solitairey> how hard is "not very easy" ?
17:07:44  <solitairey> being able to make 32bpp ISR would be so cool
17:08:14  <V453000> depends a lot ... ISR is open lisensed, so you can easily supply your graphics and just compile
17:08:35  <V453000> but with newgrfs which you do not have the code of, you would need to know the exact ID names of the spritesets it is using
17:08:36  <solitairey> so it's not possible to make a graphics pack (like zbase) that simply over-rides newgrf textures?
17:08:46  <V453000> it is, that is what BRIX is
17:08:52  <solitairey> ah
17:08:57  <V453000> replacing base game sprites is something different than replacing other newgrf sprites
17:09:20  <V453000> you probably cant make a newgrf which replaces other newgrf sprites
17:09:24  <V453000> but yeah, no reason to do so anyway
17:09:46  <solitairey> the hardest part of making new textures (apart from the sheer number of them) would be making them tile properly
17:10:11  <V453000> there is a lot of problems, trust me :)
17:10:13  <solitairey> probably not that hard with 3d models, but harder with hand drawn
17:11:08  <coopserver> *** Maraxus has left the game (Leaving)
17:11:40  <V453000> making openttd graphics is a kind of masochism
17:11:43  <V453000> there are problems at every corner
17:12:00  <V453000> with hand drawn 8bpp it is easy
17:13:44  <solitairey> by hand drawn, i don't mean pixel art
17:13:50  <solitairey> i mean actual art with a graphics tablet :D
17:15:46  <solitairey> hold on, lemme reconnect w/ a proper client
17:16:57  <solitairey> aww, can't connect via hexchat :(
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17:19:07  <solitairey> !help
17:19:07  <coopserver> solitairey:
17:19:11  <V453000> I know what you meant, drawing 32bpp is not that hard either, just moar colours/pixels
17:19:35  <V453000> after all, I will also draw proper postproduction edits to my 3D renders later
17:19:45  <V453000> but that is in polishing phase, for now I just need to get it to work all properly
17:19:53  <V453000> making it really nice is for the final stage
17:20:46  <solitairey> any idea how to connect to here via hexchat? apparently i need an username/pass for the network
17:22:36  <V453000> nope sorry I just use the webchat
17:25:18  <solitairey> alright, i'll wait and see if anyone else knows
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17:30:36  <Mazur> Y9ou dont need a password for OFTC, AFAIK.
17:33:12  <Mazur> If you want nick protection, though, you need to register with NickServ: /msg nickserv help
17:33:58  <solitairey> you do, though?
17:34:12  <solitairey> *** You need to send your password. Try /quote PASS <username>:<password>
17:35:14  <Taede> you sure you connect to oftc?
17:35:43  <Taede>
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17:41:41  <solitaire> oop there we go
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17:45:00  <V453000> yay version 21937286 of tubular bridge done XD lets render
17:52:36  <Mazur> PLaying Mike Oldfield over hte stereo, of course.
17:57:32  <solitaire> warning: don't openttd when bored
17:58:07  <coopserver> *** RocketRidah has left the game (Leaving)
17:59:15  <V453000> xd
17:59:24  <V453000> if bored then make a newgrf :P
17:59:29  <V453000> I wish I had 100 hours a day
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18:09:11  <solitaire> i don't know how to make a newgrf lol
18:19:56  <V453000> do you think I did know when I was starting? :)
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18:39:47  <solitaire> V453000, woo i don't know how to use blender properly
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18:44:54  <V453000> well, learning it is nice to do :P
18:45:19  <solitaire> learning my ass i didn't even manage to make the rail crossbar rectangular
18:45:27  <V453000> admittedly I still am much more comfortable with 3DS max which I am using for BRIX ... but blender is ok too
18:45:50  <V453000> sure :) takes a while
18:46:08  <V453000> the fact alone that you are trying is a big thing
18:46:40  <V453000> nyway. me off
18:46:42  <V453000> cya
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