Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 9th July 2009:
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01:33:38  <Brot6> Backup done! (Usage: 73M)
01:33:39  <Brot6> I'm having BEAUTIFUL THOUGHTS about the INSIPID WIVES of smug and wealthy CORPORATE LAWYERS ...
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08:52:51  <planetmaker> hm... Ammler is there a way I can ssh to the devzone via cronjob?
08:53:04  <Ammler> ?
08:53:05  <planetmaker> of course it asks me for credentials - which cronjob cannot supply
08:53:12  <planetmaker> e.g. login pw is needed
08:53:22  <planetmaker> I want to automatically upload the latest renum ;)
08:53:29  <planetmaker> in my crontab :)
08:53:32  <Ammler> make a ssh key without passphrase :P
08:53:38  <planetmaker> mäh
08:53:46  <planetmaker> but ok, is feasable, I guess
08:53:48  <Ammler> I have also different keys
08:53:57  <planetmaker> :)
08:54:12  <Ammler> keys without just need to be secure, e.g. never leave the host
08:54:19  <planetmaker> yes.
08:54:26  <planetmaker> I guess I can do that.
08:54:27  <Ammler> and not reachable by other users.
08:54:30  <planetmaker> even myself :)
08:54:42  <planetmaker> users cannot even browse my home dir :)
08:55:01  <planetmaker> drwx--x--x 153 ingo users 16384 2009-07-09 10:50 ingo
08:55:45  <Ammler> I assume, we have users on our hosts, which don't care that much with their keys as we do.
08:56:03  <planetmaker> That assumption is most probable correct :(
08:56:25  <planetmaker> they're just not aware that it's a signature...
08:56:34  <Ammler> I try to move those users at least from "full" access
08:56:44  <planetmaker> :) sensibly so :)
08:58:11  <Ammler> if the job you are speaking about limited to one command
08:58:25  <Ammler> you could use command var to limit
08:58:35  <Ammler> check example for the hg-repos users
08:58:43  <Ammler> but imo, not needed.
08:58:50  <yorick> hmm, putty allows me to specify the password with an argument
09:00:29  <Ammler> yorick: hehe, you felt spoken to, as I mentioned the bas ssh guys?
09:00:36  <Ammler> bad*
09:00:57  <Ammler> I didn't mean you.
09:01:21  <yorick> ammler, no, to pm about cronjob ;)
09:02:18  <Ammler> putty allows to bypass the passphase with argument?
09:02:22  <yorick> yes
09:02:34  <Ammler> then, what sense to use a passphrase?
09:03:10  <yorick> command line hg doesn't know to ask for a passphrase
09:03:48  <Ammler> pagent?
09:04:04  <yorick> ?
09:04:23  <Ammler> use that tool with passworded keys
09:04:35  <yorick> I use plink
09:04:39  <Ammler> yes
09:04:57  <Ammler> pagent is to store key passphrases
09:05:08  <Ammler> you only have to identify once
09:05:11  <Ammler> per session.
09:05:42  <Ammler> that is what I do here, too., btw.
09:05:54  <Ammler> first command on my console: ssh-add
09:06:11  <Ammler> then I am free to go the whole day.
09:07:29  <yorick> so I'd use pageant.exe keyfile.ppk -c plink?
09:08:11  <Ammler> no
09:08:15  <Ammler> just run that tool
09:08:20  <Ammler> add your private key
09:08:24  <Ammler> and use ssh
09:08:28  <Ammler> without -i
09:09:31  <Ammler> oh, I misspelled, sorry, don't use it anymore.
09:10:25  <planetmaker> but a cronjob doesn't allow any interactive things.
09:10:41  <planetmaker> and it needs full paths to all executables either... my makefile.local got bigger...
09:11:09  <Ammler> planetmaker: in your case, keys wihtout passphrase is the way to go.
09:11:14  <planetmaker> hehe. And once I automatically can upload things, I should start getting a win32 cross-compiler here :)
09:11:26  <planetmaker> Ammler, yes, I agree :) And thanks for pointing out.
09:11:39  <planetmaker> I guess I'll make a separate user here like you with your compile far. Way more secure.
09:12:07  <planetmaker> though the daily backup is made two hourse prior to calling this compile "farm" ;)
09:12:08  <Ammler> hmm, I am still fiddeling with chroot
09:12:15  <Ammler> but I might give up that
09:12:34  <planetmaker> I don't see a sense in that. It won't prevent in any case to completely delete the repository, however you tune it.
09:13:07  <Ammler> well, did you ever speak with TB about using his farm?
09:13:35  <Ammler> (before you spent too much effort in that, what you already did anyway :-)
09:17:12  <Ammler> planetmaker: btw. for the linux builds you could use the server directly
09:24:35  <planetmaker> yes, but I use it as the easy-to-start with thing :)
09:24:58  <planetmaker> Ammler, yes, I did. And he's actually quite for providing them via his CF
09:25:06  <Ammler> does the console have a tool for password generating?
09:25:11  <planetmaker> ssh-keygen
09:25:22  <planetmaker> oh, password or key?
09:25:29  <planetmaker> passwd
09:25:32  <yorick> Ammler: when I try pageant, it asks me for the pass, and then a terminal opens up and says "Illegal Command"
09:25:53  <Ammler> password
09:26:34  <planetmaker> :O passwd kills my xterm without any warning :(
09:26:43  <Ammler> :-)
09:26:47  <yorick> ~/putty/pageant ~/.ssh/ottdc.ppk -c ~/putty/plink -ssh ssh://ottdc@mz.openttd
09:26:50  <yorick>
09:26:53  <Ammler> oh sorry, not funny.
09:27:19  <Ammler> yorick: I run pageant without any command
09:27:36  <yorick> Ammler: then I need to load pageant first...
09:27:38  <Ammler> then you have the tool loaded in the systembar (left of clock)
09:28:08  <Ammler> then you add the key there and you should be able to use putty without -i
09:28:26  <yorick> Ammler: I'm too lazy for that
09:28:36  <Ammler> np
09:28:49  <Ammler> but then, I wouldn't use a key with passphrase :-)
09:28:58  <Ammler> but nvm.
09:32:28  <Ammler> yorick: I guess, pagent can be added to systemstart and so you would only need to add the passphrase on start.
09:32:48  <yorick> Ammler: then I will have to input my passphrase on start!
09:33:03  <Ammler> yes, that is the sense of the passphrase :-)
09:33:14  <yorick> I just want it to be asked once...
09:33:19  <yorick> when it's needed
09:33:29  <Ammler> if someone else can use your key, it isn't private anymore :P
09:34:38  <Ammler> I am sure, pageant supports also that but I am not familiar with it anymore, quite a long time I used it.
09:35:22  <yorick> Ammler: D:\msys\home\Yorick>putty\plink -ssh
09:35:26  <yorick> Using username "ottdc".
09:35:28  <yorick> Illegal command '?'
09:36:22  <Ammler>
09:36:58  <yorick> oh please no tortoiseplinks
09:37:21  <Ammler> ?
09:37:42  <yorick> I don't have tortoisehg
09:37:43  <Ammler> just compare it with what you use, maybe -2?
09:37:49  <yorick> nope, doesn't work
09:37:54  <Ammler> mäh
09:38:23  <Ammler> and you aren't able to make link from that guide to your tools?
09:38:51  <yorick> yes, I have
09:39:00  <yorick> but not with pageant
09:39:38  <yorick> MEH
09:39:46  <yorick> with pageant running, pull does not require a password anymore
09:39:47  <Ammler> well, FooBar_ and djn use it afaik.
09:40:00  <Ammler> you might ask them about, if they are around.
09:40:12  <FooBar_> I don't use pageant...
09:40:30  <Ammler> it works on my winxp that way.
09:40:32  <FooBar_> But with it running pull doesn't require password
09:41:16  <Ammler> FooBar_: then you don't use passphrase?
09:41:18  <FooBar_> The trouble on Vista was that it didn't want to remember my key, so I had to re-add that every time
09:41:40  <FooBar_> Ammler: I use passphrase, I have to type that on every pull/push ;)
09:41:49  <Ammler> oh :-o
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09:42:22  <FooBar_> Having admin rights and such I think it's a bad idea /not/ to have a passphrase :P
09:42:42  <Ammler> FooBar_: imo, passphrase is only important, if you share the host with others, or you have it on a usb stick like me.
09:43:24  <FooBar_> Well, I have a password on my Windows account, but that's circumvented easily...
09:43:42  <Ammler> still?
09:43:45  <yorick> MEH
09:43:51  <FooBar_> I did that a few times on other computers myself :)
09:44:23  <yorick> Ammler: did I manage to ban myself again?
09:45:10  <Ammler> oh, possible, ip?
09:45:23  <FooBar_> The easiest way to get access to the files on the computer is to put in a linux live cd and boot from that. And if you need admin rights to the windows install, it's not that hard to crack the actual password...
09:45:26  <Ammler>
09:45:58  <Ammler> true
09:46:13  <Ammler> same on linux
09:46:21  <Ammler> if you don't crypt the hd
09:46:56  <Ammler> but then, "someone" need access to that pc. (physical)
09:47:27  <yorick> Ammler: that ban thing gets annoying ;)
09:47:28  <FooBar_> It's a laptop I carry around every week in the train...
09:47:52  <Ammler> yorick: so you are on it?
09:47:59  <yorick> yes
09:48:02  <Ammler> ip?
09:48:11  <FooBar_> So that's a bit of a security issue IMO :)
09:48:12  <yorick> ALL:
09:49:13  <Ammler> yorick: removed
09:49:24  <yorick> ok, thanks ;)
09:49:28  <FooBar_> don't write your password wrong more than once ;)
09:49:38  <yorick> FooBar_: it's not the password
09:49:42  <FooBar_> oh
09:49:50  <Ammler> there is no password for the host
09:49:52  <yorick> it's something that likes sending strange chars when logged in
09:49:55  <Ammler> he used wrong usernames
09:50:09  <FooBar_> ah, well, don't write the username wrong more than once :P
09:50:48  <FooBar_> or just don't write anything wrong, and you're golden :D
09:51:01  <Ammler> Jul  9 11:42:17 mozart sshd[23863]: Accepted publickey for ottdc from port 59657 ssh2
09:51:10  <yorick> yes, it logged in
09:51:12  <Ammler> Jul  9 11:42:54 mozart sshd[25685]: Invalid user ssh from
09:51:15  <yorick> but it didn't pip it anymore
09:51:20  <yorick> pipe*
09:51:24  <Ammler> Jul  9 11:43:13 mozart denyhosts: Added the following hosts to /etc/hosts.deny - (
09:51:27  * FooBar_ shuts up as he hasn't coded a single industry without putting some errors in first
09:52:01  <Ammler> Jul  9 11:43:17 mozart sshd[25963]: Accepted publickey for ottdc from port 59661 ssh2
09:52:10  <Ammler> Jul  9 11:43:34 mozart sshd[26335]: refused connect from" target="_blank"> (" target="_blank">
09:53:26  <yorick> I got pageant to start automagically, but it doesn't pipe the subcommand to hg
09:53:45  <Ammler> there is no need for that
09:53:54  <Ammler> ssh does use that automatically, or putty
09:54:06  <Ammler> or do you use cygwin ssh?
09:54:15  <yorick> I use putty
09:54:31  <yorick> but I want pageant to start when I try to push
09:54:50  <Ammler> he?
09:54:56  <Ammler> that is too late, isn't?
09:55:26  <yorick> d:/msys/home/Yorick/putty/pageant d:/msys/home/Yorick/.ssh/ottdc.ppk -c d:/msys/home/Yorick/putty/plink -ssh -i d:/msys/home/Yorick/.ssh/ottdc.ppk <- I tried this
09:55:29  <yorick> it starts pageant
09:55:34  <Ammler> btw. the hosts will be deleted after 7 days automatically again.
09:55:52  <yorick> but it does not pipe the output of plink back
09:55:56  <yorick> and it keeps it open
09:55:59  <yorick> 7 days!
09:56:13  <yorick> 5 minutes would be enough to stop brute-forcing
09:56:29  <Ammler> well, I share those hosts with the world :-)
09:56:44  <Ammler> I receive every 10 mins, around 40 new ips
09:56:55  <Ammler> and I send every hour around 1 ip
09:57:16  <Ammler> well, not hour anymore, day maybe
09:57:29  <Ammler> he, funny is, I don't use it really
09:57:34  <Ammler> I just do it for fun :-)
09:57:42  <Ammler> need*
09:57:52  <Ammler> as login with pw isn't possible anyway.
10:00:21  <yorick> hmm, maybe I can do some start pageant key && plink -ssh -i key tricks
10:00:43  <Ammler> :-)
10:01:00  <yorick> but that doesn't wait for the passphrase
10:01:56  <yorick> I need some way to test without getting banned
10:03:00  <FooBar_> use a nonexistant host until you have the first step figured
10:04:36  <yorick> I can't try to login on nonexistant hosts
10:07:19  <FooBar_> no, but you can see if it asks for the key before continuing to connect...
10:09:18  <yorick> it does wait, but it also waits until pageant is closed again
10:09:27  <Ammler> you can use
10:09:40  <yorick> it does not ban me?
10:12:30  <yorick> or I need to use tortoiseplink...
10:14:38  <Ammler> maybe the reason, they patched plink
10:16:33  <yorick> from hgwiki: NOTE: The following works for cases when the private keys are not Password phrase encrypted. The original plink.exe expects the password to be entered at stdin but stdin is redirected. To get passwords to work you need one of the TortoisePlink.exes from either  or
10:16:34  <Webster> Title: TortoiseCVS: Download (at
10:19:33  <yorick> ok, it works with tortoiseplink
10:19:38  <yorick> except for I have to enter it every time
10:20:17  <yorick> but it's probably better than having a decrypted key of your server in my memory/swap file
10:20:22  <yorick> or a password for that key somewhere
10:21:58  <Ammler> well, your current key can only commit, so it doesn't matter that much, imo.
10:22:19  <Ammler> FooBar_: you could make a 2nd key for hg commits without passphrase
10:22:37  <FooBar_> hmmz...
10:22:45  <FooBar_> that's a good idea...
10:22:48  <Ammler> like my test key.
10:22:50  <FooBar_> I might just do that :)
10:32:12  <yorick> ooh, tortoiseplink also supports pageant
10:32:47  <Ammler> tortoise for hg != tortoise for svn
10:32:58  <Ammler> I would like to use here too
10:33:02  <Ammler> it looks very nice
10:33:11  <yorick> tortoiseplink is part of tortoisecvs
10:33:36  <yorick> so all things with tortoise* have it
10:34:36  <FooBar_> Ammler: that second key is pure genious. Great thinking! :D
10:35:52  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 171: Feature: Textile Mill @ (by foobar)
10:37:38  <Ammler> FooBar_: you are welcome :P
10:38:19  <Ammler> FooBar_: btw, I added last night r170 to the nightly builds
10:38:53  <Ammler> as andy announced it but there wasn't any, do you expect the server to create them automatically now?
10:39:05  <FooBar_> yes, I noticed yesterday. I just built one myself and was about to upload, then I noticed one there already :P
10:39:43  <FooBar_> I don't expect anything, but if the server could do it automatically then that would be nice :)
10:47:23  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 172: Fix (r171): Allow Textile Mill in tropic as well. @ (by foobar)
10:50:24  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #101: Sprites 4579:4579 (1) - Snow arctic church @ (by Gen.Sniper)
10:54:45  <FooBar_> I'm starting to think renum wasn't broken in terms of -w 100...
10:55:17  <FooBar_> Rather my makefile.local was broken by only specifying -w 141,144...
10:55:59  <FooBar_> And then you can do whatever you want in makefile.config, but that doesn't change anything...
10:57:32  <Ammler> :-)
10:57:44  <Ammler> don't edit .config for individual things
10:57:51  <Ammler> didn't I mention that already?
10:58:24  <FooBar_> I edited that as it would be useful for automated builds to silence some warnings
10:58:32  * Ammler still dreams, the opengfx will sometime compile without errors :-)
10:58:49  <planetmaker> FooBar_, anyway, there's a new renum out which fixes that - or at least *something*
10:58:53  <FooBar_> And be useful to me as it would silence them on my side as well...
10:58:56  <Ammler> :-)
10:59:13  <FooBar_> I just tested: the old renum works fine with -w 100,144,141 as well...
10:59:28  <Ammler> sorry, if I laugth too much today :-P
11:00:01  <Ammler> -t
11:00:14  <FooBar_> I think an apology is in order...
11:00:23  <planetmaker> :)
11:00:31  <planetmaker> well...
11:00:44  <planetmaker> but since I updated to that renum it indeed doesn't show any errors anymore...
11:00:50  <Ammler> well, i don't think dalestan is the guy, who wouldn't let you know, if there wasn't something wrong with it.
11:01:24  <planetmaker> He fixed something... among others he updated the copyright notice, though which is 50% of the commit :P
11:02:34  <planetmaker> I wished renum and grfcodec makefiles would have natively a target 'install'
11:02:50  <planetmaker> and have at least remotely similar makefiles. But they don't at all.
11:04:06  <FooBar_> they have similar compile readmes... the renum one states that grfcodec doesn't need boost...
11:06:33  <Ammler> :-o
11:06:39  <Ammler> my openttd doesn't start anymore
11:06:46  <Ammler> seg faults :-)
11:06:57  <Ammler> might be a strange update
11:08:09  <Ammler> or opengfx?
11:08:52  <planetmaker> I added a key for planetmaker_cf to ottdc full access
11:09:36  <Ammler> is it to upload bundles?
11:09:42  <planetmaker> yes
11:09:50  <planetmaker> and fetch repos
11:09:56  <Ammler> is the main user there :-)
11:10:02  <planetmaker> obviously it has to do that, too :)
11:10:16  <planetmaker> ottdc can do that, too, can't it?
11:10:20  <Ammler> ottdc has just a symlink
11:10:42  <Ammler> yes, I gave ottdc +w
11:10:44  <planetmaker> well... ok But it's the same key file :)
11:10:48  <planetmaker> ah, ok
11:10:56  <planetmaker> should I use openttd then?
11:11:03  <Ammler> I don't care
11:11:17  <planetmaker> my usual login to your server is ottdc
11:11:51  <Ammler> the openttd compile farm has openttd
11:11:58  <planetmaker> :) ah
11:12:06  <Ammler> I create a user hg for the repos
11:12:08  <planetmaker> ok, then I shall use that for my 'compile farm', too
11:12:21  <Ammler> we will have a user compile for compiling nightlies and releases
11:12:48  <Ammler> and then, maybe ottdc can again be used for what it was thought, playing openttd games :-)
11:13:07  <FooBar_> let me know if I need to change something on my side... ;)
11:13:14  <Ammler> not yet
11:13:29  <Ammler> it will be announced with the nice news tool from redmine.
11:13:52  <FooBar_> ok, then I'll check that as soon as pull fails :P
11:14:01  <Ammler> I just work something for half an hour on that.
11:14:10  <Ammler> so it will need time :-)
11:14:27  <planetmaker> :)
11:15:04  <Ammler> user compile is done and ottdc has sudo right to it
11:15:39  <Ammler> so I create a folder per project, we will make nightlies
11:15:59  <Ammler> add +w for compile and our pseudo chroot is done?
11:18:05  <planetmaker> +w for compile is not save.
11:18:16  <planetmaker> it allows deletion of the folder
11:18:20  <planetmaker> and the files therein
11:18:27  <planetmaker> compile shouldn't have write on the repos.
11:20:32  <Ammler> no
11:20:55  <planetmaker> ?
11:20:57  <Ammler> I create new empty folders for the project we do make
11:21:07  <Ammler> and there compile has +w
11:21:23  <planetmaker> ok. But why doesn't do compile that in its own home dir?
11:21:44  <planetmaker> there's no need to grant it any write access anywhere except its home dir and the web dirs.
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11:22:03  <Ammler> no access for compile to the web
11:22:22  <planetmaker> ok, then ottdc does that...
11:22:32  <planetmaker> But compile doesn't need write access anywhere any case.
11:22:43  <planetmaker> as long as ottdc can read in compile's dir.
11:23:23  <Ammler> ottdc run sudo -ucompile hg clone . && sudo -ucompile make bundle_zip
11:23:40  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 285: Sort contributor names alphabetically @ (by Yorick@Yorick-Laptop)
11:26:06  <yorick> meh, acidenally got wrong name :)
11:26:52  <Ammler> you should define your username in hgrc
11:27:07  <Ammler> or in mercurial.ini
11:27:50  <yorick> Ammler: it got removed when changing to tortoiseplink
11:28:57  <Ammler> redmine can map the users
11:29:08  <Ammler> so at least there, it doesn't matter
11:34:29  <planetmaker> hm... my boost wasn't properly installed...
11:34:43  <planetmaker> luckily I got it fixed :)
11:35:40  <Ammler> he, isn't it nice
11:35:54  <Ammler> opengfx made my openttd segfaults
11:35:57  <Ammler> at start
11:35:58  <planetmaker> :O
11:36:01  <planetmaker> how that?
11:36:17  <Ammler> my commit yesterday, I assume
11:36:38  <planetmaker> well... one would have to assume - but how so?
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11:39:02  <Ammler> hmm, 14 download, noone complains about
11:39:18  <planetmaker> hm...
11:41:03  <Ammler> it seg faults with r94 too
11:41:19  <planetmaker> strange.
11:41:26  <Ammler> so I assume it is something with codec/renum
11:41:39  <Ammler> checking local settings
11:41:40  <planetmaker> I could swear I used it. But I'm not 100% sure I used always make install
11:42:48  <Ammler> md5sum: ogfxe_extra.grf: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
11:42:54  <planetmaker> it must be your openttd
11:43:04  <planetmaker> it works here.
11:43:25  <planetmaker> (on suse, r95)
11:43:33  <planetmaker> trunk
11:43:37  <planetmaker> r16692
11:45:19  <Ammler> no, it is my opengfx
11:45:29  <Ammler> remove one grf
11:45:37  <Ammler> and try to start openttd
11:45:39  <FooBar_> ogfx r94 works fine here
11:45:49  <Ammler> FooBar_: yes, it is my local issue
11:45:55  <Ammler> r95 will work too
11:46:12  <planetmaker> :)
11:46:17  <FooBar_> possibly, I haven't upgraded yet :P
11:47:56  <Ammler> imho, i coded the vehilces perfect now :P
11:48:10  <Ammler> it took quite some tries ;-)
11:48:58  <Ammler> now, I know how, and there is nothing left to code :-(
11:49:48  <Ammler> well, I will now check the 2cc set with my new experience ;-)
11:49:49  <planetmaker> Ammler, there are still missing toyland trucks :P
11:50:04  <planetmaker> (no, I want to finish it ;) )
11:50:27  <planetmaker> though I don't mind, if you continued. I'm not really possessive as long as it helps OpenGFX
11:50:39  <planetmaker> I really, really want to see a version with 100% of the sprites replaced.
11:52:20  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 173: Feature: Furniture Factory @ (by foobar)
11:52:50  <FooBar_> who doesn't?
11:53:04  <Ammler> doesn't?
11:53:18  <Ammler> ah
11:53:20  <FooBar_> who doesn't want to see a version with 100% of the sprites replaced?
11:53:22  <Ammler> :-P
11:53:24  <FooBar_> yes, that ::P
11:53:37  <Ammler> your are too slow :P
11:53:49  <Ammler> my brain was faster then your explaination ;-)
11:54:07  <FooBar_> :)
11:55:22  <Ammler> the vehicels from opengfx are awesome now
11:56:13  <Ammler> the rest needs time to get familiar
11:57:03  <Ammler> most people (also me) wasn't really excited about opengfx the first look.
12:02:44  <Ammler> btw. is photoshop able to open xcf (GIMP)?
12:04:25  <FooBar_> no, it can't
12:04:45  <FooBar_> at least not the version I have, maybe CS4 can...
12:05:15  <Ammler> hmm, then I shouldn't commit them that way, quite useless :-)
12:05:28  <FooBar_> to me, yes :P
12:05:47  <Ammler> if I save them as png, it should keep the layers
12:06:10  <Ammler> btw. no issue here to load psd.
12:07:53  <Ammler> (as you would care ;-)
12:09:01  <FooBar_> I suppose you can't save to psd?
12:09:57  <FooBar_> never heard of a layered png though...
12:16:07  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 96: Fix r95: sprite files should have dimensions with factor 4. @ (by Ammler)
12:17:41  <Ammler> FooBar_:
12:18:48  <Ammler> FooBar_: ignore the link, please
12:18:58  <FooBar_> that opens fine here, with guides and everything. No layers though, but that's not surprisingly as it's an indexed file
12:19:01  <FooBar_> too late ;)
12:19:57  <Ammler> you mean, if I keep it rgb, it would have layers?
12:26:33  <FooBar_> yes
12:26:52  <FooBar_> If you used layers that is
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12:36:25  <Ammler> it has layers, 1 per sprtieset from BA
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12:51:51  <yorick> any sed expert?
12:52:41  <Ammler> yorick: depense on the question
12:53:04  <yorick> I want to convert
12:53:48  <yorick> into somthing like
12:54:06  <yorick> with different coordinates, ofcourse ;)
12:56:08  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 174: Change: Remove origin of renum warnings 100 @ (by foobar)
12:56:11  <Ammler> sed -n -e "s|old|new|gp"
12:57:30  <Ammler> but I don't see advantage of replacing it to something equal complicated?
12:57:46  <yorick> Ammler: it's smaller
13:00:00  <Ammler> just don't make it too complcated, so the other coders don't know anymore, how it works
13:00:18  <yorick> well beardie likes this way
13:00:45  <Beardie> what?
13:01:00  <yorick> with the spr()
13:01:12  <Beardie> o that
13:01:15  <Beardie> i like it
13:01:22  <Beardie> it makes life really easy
13:01:38  <Ammler> wow, life?
13:01:50  <Ammler> :-)
13:02:03  <Beardie> lol
13:02:26  <FooBar_> I'm unsure... copy/paste/search/replace is not much less easy...
13:02:44  <FooBar_> what text editor do you use?
13:03:05  <FooBar_> I started to appreciate notepad++ a lot
13:03:10  <yorick> FooBar_: I want the coordinates right
13:03:21  <yorick> notepad++ can't regex find newlines
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13:04:04  <Beardie> i just notepad
13:04:10  <Beardie> the good old one lol
13:04:26  <FooBar_> don't know, I never needed to use a newline in a search/replace
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13:25:38  <planetmaker> yorick, it's possible :P
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13:26:11  <yorick> planetmaker, ok, do you know how :P
13:26:28  <planetmaker> yorick, no. Unfortunately not.
13:26:37  <yorick> :(
13:26:43  <planetmaker> Just my feeling from reading the bash, sed and awk manuals: it's feasable.
13:27:24  <planetmaker> I'm sure I could do it faster by hand than finding a replacement script.
13:27:41  <planetmaker> or rather: writing
13:28:11  <yorick> planetmaker: it's not just one file
13:28:39  <yorick> it's more than 20 times that
13:29:34  <planetmaker> hm
13:30:50  <yorick> planetmaker: 420, grep tells me
13:31:04  <yorick> 420 groups of 8 sprites :)
13:33:07  <yorick> and I still need to replace 150 of them
13:33:28  <Ammler> yorick: did you see my script?
13:33:34  <yorick> ammler: no?
13:33:37  <Ammler> my line, I mean
13:33:45  <Ammler> [14:56] <Ammler> sed -n -e "s|old|new|gp"
13:33:55  <yorick> Ammler: it's a little more complicated
13:34:13  <planetmaker> yorick, not much
13:34:27  <yorick> I want it to select groups of 8 sprites, put the spritename on the top and an undef on the bottom
13:34:35  <yorick> and replace all spritenames with spr
13:34:40  <planetmaker> you just need to obtain the names somehow.
13:35:05  <Ammler> oh
13:35:07  <Ammler> hmm
13:35:09  <Ammler> well
13:35:11  <Ammler> :-)
13:35:53  <planetmaker> yorick, make a list of different sprites.
13:36:16  <yorick> like how?
13:36:19  <planetmaker> sed for those and add your define line prior to the first occurance and your undefine after the 8th
13:36:25  <planetmaker> yorick, yes.
13:36:33  <planetmaker> see the makefiles of e.g. firs
13:36:36  <Ammler> I don't like your approach
13:36:38  <planetmaker> the list of pcx
13:36:57  <Ammler> what should it help to define the var right before usage?
13:37:00  <yorick> planetmaker: they occur multiple times
13:37:11  <planetmaker> ok. bad :)
13:46:18  <yorick> Ammler: can you compile was on linux?
13:46:27  <yorick> we might want nightlies :)
13:47:07  <Ammler> yorick: can you on mingw?
13:47:13  <yorick> I can
13:47:18  <Ammler> then I try
13:47:40  <Ammler> as soon as I have the pseudo chroot done
13:47:50  <Ammler> someone this weekend
13:47:52  <yorick> k
13:48:04  <Ammler> maybe tonight but not sure :-)
13:48:05  <yorick> any special commands needed for nightly builds?
13:48:14  <Ammler> bundle_zip
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13:48:45  <Ammler> should make the same as the other makefiles like firs
13:49:00  <Ammler> a directory and there the grf with a readme
13:49:07  <Ammler> or whatever
13:49:20  <Ammler> and then zip that
13:49:22  <yorick> k
13:49:29  <yorick> what name for the zip>
13:49:44  <Ammler> and zip should be configurable
13:50:01  <Ammler> I use 7zip on the server
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13:50:52  <Ammler> I hoped, pm does document his makefile, let me look
13:50:56  <planetmaker> yorick, preferrably the archive should give the newgrf name and the revision
13:51:07  <yorick> ok
13:51:07  <planetmaker> hm... I guess not too much so far :)
13:51:18  <planetmaker> best documented is the special makefile project, though
13:51:28  <planetmaker> though, I think the others have it now, too.
13:51:29  <Ammler>
13:51:41  <planetmaker> I just copy&pasted from there to others and commited the changes :P
13:51:43  * yorick gets a stroopwafel
13:51:49  <planetmaker> :)
13:51:59  <Ammler>
13:52:04  <planetmaker> stroopwafels are here available for about 1...2 years only
13:52:38  <Ammler> what's that?
13:52:48  <planetmaker> Ammler, that part of the readme is not transfered to other projects (yet)
13:53:02  <Ammler> well, I care about the target
13:53:03  <planetmaker> Ammler, two cookies with sirup between
13:53:16  <Ammler> hmm
13:53:26  <Ammler> sirup?
13:53:33  <planetmaker> Sirup
13:53:34  <Ammler> isn't that liquid?
13:53:39  <planetmaker> well... a bit.
13:53:47  <planetmaker> very, very sticky
13:53:52  <planetmaker> Like Gelee
13:53:53  <Ammler> so it is more like confiture?
13:54:00  <yorick>
13:54:01  <Webster> Title: Stroopwafel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at
13:54:02  <planetmaker> well... it's sirup :)
13:54:22  <Ammler> ah, we have them too
13:54:28  <Ammler> dunno, how we call it
13:57:52  <yorick> it's called stroopwafel in most languages
13:58:38  <Ammler> might be
14:00:53  <Beardie> a what?
14:01:00  <Beardie> Syrup Waffles
14:01:37  <Beardie> never heard of the word, i don;t think we use it here
14:02:28  <Ammler> the word or the cookie?
14:02:37  <Beardie> its a cookie?
14:02:42  <Beardie> its a waffle
14:02:49  <Beardie> the word
14:02:49  <yorick> it's a cookie
14:03:01  <yorick> or a miniature waffle
14:03:06  <yorick> but mostly a cookie'
14:03:09  <Beardie> well the english translation is Waffle
14:03:15  <yorick> yyes
14:03:24  <yorick> the name of the cookie is syrupwaffle
14:04:05  <Brot6> firs: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
14:04:09  <yorick> the english wikipedia has the wrong translation
14:04:16  <Brot6> opengfx: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
14:05:05  <yorick> it's actually a cook, but english doesn't have that word :D
14:05:43  <FooBar_> at least not in that context :P
14:10:08  <Beardie> well
14:10:26  <Beardie> Stroopwafel
14:10:32  <Beardie> whats wafel?
14:10:38  <yorick> it's waffle
14:10:42  <Beardie> yes
14:10:45  <Beardie> and Stroop
14:10:50  <yorick> syrup
14:11:10  <Beardie> so for a computer it  would think Syrup Waffle
14:11:11  <yorick> but the word as a combination means 2 waffles with syrup as a cookie
14:11:45  <yorick> ...
14:12:14  <yorick> discussions about if the stroopwafel is a waffle or a cookie
14:13:04  <yorick> <-- THIS is a waffle
14:13:05  <Webster> Title: File:Brussels waffle.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at
14:13:11  <FooBar_> we might as well discuss if peanutbutter is butter or cheese... :)
14:13:47  <yorick> FooBar_: it's butter, but couldn't be called that way in dutchlands because boter is reserved for things that are actually made out of milk
14:14:48  <FooBar_> I know that, but I find it silly nonetheless ;)
14:14:57  * yorick should probably not be chewing on glass-fibers
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14:49:34  <Ammler> planetmaker: you could remove link to dev server to shorten your sig
14:49:42  <Ammler> as that is outdated anyway
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14:56:35  <yorick> Ammler: is it ok if I use the rss2png signature?
14:56:49  <Beardie> big day tomorrow Ammler and yorick
14:57:04  <Ammler> if you don't complain about the "y" ;-)
14:57:17  <yorick> Beardie: what's tomorrow?
14:57:22  <Beardie> when 10th july revision finally comes out of the server, the commit i did ion the future
14:57:24  <Ammler> Beardie: release day?
14:57:28  <yorick> Ammler: can I complain about the "p"?
14:57:36  <Beardie> no the lost in time commit
14:57:37  <Beardie> lol
14:57:49  <FooBar_> :P
14:58:08  <Ammler> Beardie: that is fixed on our devzone, didn't you realize?
14:58:15  <Beardie> no lol
14:58:25  <Beardie> still skpye is broken
14:58:42  <Beardie> skype still showing me message from the 10th july
14:58:55  <Beardie> o and thanks for fixing the revision lol
14:59:20  <Ammler> yorick: are you familiar with php and those images libs?
14:59:27  <Ammler> you can fix it, if you want
14:59:56  <Ammler> or you give me a better script, I just don't put more effort from me in it.
15:01:14  <Beardie> well i ahve to go bye
15:01:22  <yorick> bye
15:01:26  <Beardie> see ya
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15:01:52  <yorick> it looks like a danetmaker :)
15:02:44  <Ammler> well, I could make it another parameter
15:03:18  <yorick> please make height another parameter
15:04:34  <yorick> ammler: it uses GD?
15:05:43  <Ammler> google for rss2png
15:06:55  <yorick> oh, gonewacko
15:07:07  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #102 (Closed): Sprites 2981-3016 (36) - monolev engines @ (by Ammler)
15:07:33  <Ammler>
15:12:03  <yorick> you use rss 2.0?
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15:14:16  <Ammler> yorick: I would like to use atom
15:14:30  <Ammler> but that script can't
15:14:32  <yorick> you want me to write an atom parser?
15:15:23  <Ammler> No, but I might use it, if you make one ;-)
15:16:05  <Ammler> then, we could use feeds from redmine
15:16:22  <Ammler> well
15:17:00  <yorick> I guess I should make a new script :D
15:17:32  <planetmaker> Ammler, why is the link to the dev server outdated? We still have one, don't we?
15:17:33  <yorick> do you have any atom feeds to test with?
15:19:21  <yorick> oh there
15:24:17  <Ammler> planetmaker: the link isn't but the content of that wikipage is.
15:24:47  <Ammler> yorick: on almost every redmine page
15:27:40  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 97: Feature #102: Update the credits list, marked monolev done. @ (by Ammler)
15:28:15  <Ammler> FooBar_: try that psd:
15:28:45  <FooBar_> that one has layers :)
15:29:21  <Ammler> psd file is very small compared with gimp xcf
15:30:16  <FooBar_> xcf is uncompressed I believe
15:30:38  <FooBar_> I've seen several .xcf.bz2 files pass by...
15:33:55  <Ammler>
15:33:58  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 98: Cleanup: use psd instead of xcf as source file with GIMP too. @ (by Ammler)
15:34:01  <Ammler> hehe :-)
15:36:34  <Ammler> well, it was a test, but keeping source of file which hasn't more info then the pcx doesn't make much sense ;-)
15:46:09  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 99: Cleanup: Why keep outdated files? @ (by Ammler)
15:47:01  <Ammler> we need strip on redmine
15:47:15  <Ammler> and rollback
15:49:12  <FooBar_> glad I didn't pull :)
15:50:08  <Ammler> hehe
15:50:22  <Ammler> well, I made rollback local and on the server
15:50:35  <Ammler> but redmine of course has already the wrong changeset
15:50:43  <Ammler> but doesn't matter in that case.
15:51:39  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 175: Feature: Aluminium Plant @ (by foobar)
15:52:14  <Ammler> planetmaker: there was a reason for the counter alphabetic order of the credits
15:53:35  <Ammler> how to update the readme?
15:53:48  <FooBar_>
15:53:50  <Ammler> wiki or txt file or both?
16:10:19  <planetmaker> Ammler, ?
16:10:25  <planetmaker> I didn't change any order...
16:17:22  <Ammler>
16:17:36  <Ammler>
16:17:44  <Ammler> they are different
16:18:02  <Brot6> OpenGFX: update from r95 to r99, starting nightly compile
16:18:22  <Ammler> mäh, it should make dependency checks
16:18:32  <Brot6> OpenGFX: nightlies compile finished with 2 errors:
16:18:53  <yorick> Ammler: I think I have something
16:18:53  <Ammler> the bundle is equal to yesterday, just another rev name
16:20:20  <Ammler> nice
16:23:08  <yorick> hmm, would you like diagonal texts?
16:28:21  <planetmaker> :O
16:28:29  <planetmaker> Ammler, of OpenGFX?
16:28:29  <FooBar_> I was eating...
16:28:54  <FooBar_> changing wiki is most important IMO
16:28:54  <Ammler> planetmaker: ?
16:29:10  <planetmaker> <Ammler> the bundle is equal to yesterday, just another rev name <-- ?
16:29:18  <Ammler> one should be the "master"
16:29:43  <Ammler> planetmaker: because I did just cleanups, not real feature adds
16:29:49  <planetmaker> ah, ok
16:30:01  <FooBar_> to me the wiki is the master, but you're allowed to think differently ;)
16:30:09  <planetmaker> :) I do :P
16:30:10  <Ammler> :-P
16:30:30  <planetmaker> But the wiki is read more, I guess, so I agree that it's importatnt
16:30:32  <Ammler> well, Born Acorn needs to be added to the credtis
16:30:32  <planetmaker> *important
16:30:40  <Ammler> tell me how and I do, else you do.
16:30:44  <FooBar_> I'm still considering writing a script that parses the wiki content into a human readable plain text format.
16:30:59  <planetmaker> hm...
16:31:02  <FooBar_> One could then wget that and put it in the bundel as txt file
16:31:14  <planetmaker> curl
16:31:45  <Ammler> but you should curl the printable version
16:31:48  <Ammler> hmm
16:31:59  <Ammler> doesn't wiki support plain txt format?
16:32:23  <FooBar_> wiki has a printable version, but I couldn't find a plaintext format...
16:34:13  <yorick> ammler: :)
16:34:15  <planetmaker> shouldn't / couldn't it be vice versa? Generating the wiki / web page from plain text?
16:34:18  <planetmaker> Way easier
16:34:22  <Webster> Title: senduit | Share easily. (at
16:34:27  <Ammler> yorick: no senduit link
16:34:34  <Ammler> use the devzone :-)
16:34:41  <yorick> Ammler: how?
16:34:55  <Ammler> file section
16:35:10  <Ammler> we can remove after I wget it
16:35:16  <yorick> file where?
16:35:26  <planetmaker> e.g. was :)
16:35:34  <Ammler> where you are allowed to :-)
16:36:05  <yorick> mh
16:36:23  <FooBar_> <planetmaker>	shouldn't / couldn't it be vice versa? Generating the wiki / web page from plain text? <-- can that be done automatically?
16:36:39  <Ammler> :-)
16:36:47  <Ammler> I am happy you have Umlauts
16:37:02  <yorick> you don't?
16:37:14  <Ammler> I have, because I need
16:37:16  <FooBar_> I don't: maeh :P
16:37:53  <FooBar_> I can't be bothered to remember those Alt+x codes
16:38:09  <yorick> I have m"ah
16:38:10  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 176: Fix: no newline at EOF warnings @ (by foobar)
16:39:20  <FooBar_> I find that rather annoying. I don't want to hit space every time I want a quote or something. And I need quotes far more often than umlauts...
16:39:42  <yorick> Ammler: I'll pm it to you on tt-forums
16:40:02  <yorick> :D
16:40:08  <yorick> or you can't wget that?
16:40:08  <FooBar_> When you write html you get annoyed by that behaviour rather quickly... <img src="images/... :P
16:40:25  <FooBar_> that needen't be an i with umlaut :)
16:40:43  <yorick> 
16:40:56  <yorick> FooBar_: no, I'm used to adding a space
16:41:01  <Ammler> yorick:
16:41:15  <FooBar_> ok, that's fine if you're used to it :)
16:41:28  <FooBar_> I'm not, but use whatever method you like best or are accustom to :)
16:42:15  <yorick> Ammler:
16:42:17  <yorick> there
16:42:23  <yorick> let me know when you have it ;)
16:42:39  <yorick> you need to adjust the feed location and number of entries
16:47:39  <yorick> ooh, html5 parser landed into gecko
16:49:00  <FooBar_> nice, but there's no use at the moment, as other browsers don't support it (yet) :(
16:50:08  <yorick> it's largely backwards compatible
16:50:19  <yorick> except for IE, that one needs a script to make the tags known
16:53:48  <yorick> Ammler: do you have it?
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16:57:57  <FooBar_> well yes, but the new things aren't supported in other browsers anyways. Making it pretty useless to switch to html5 at this point. Also as it's no final specification yet...
16:58:46  <FooBar_> Once done it will be a nice successor of html4 though
16:59:24  <Ammler> it took quite long until the browsers are xhtml 1.0 capable
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17:00:06  * yorick expects it to be sooner with the wars between webkit and gecko
17:00:16  <yorick> Ammler: have you got it yet?
17:00:33  *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC
17:02:17  <Ammler>
17:02:56  <yorick> :)
17:03:15  <yorick> you may want to change it a bit so the format is just like rss2png
17:06:39  <planetmaker> The image “” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.
17:06:58  <planetmaker> ^ Ammler
17:07:26  <yorick> yep, same here now
17:07:34  <yorick> it just worked ;)
17:08:10  <Ammler> try again :P
17:08:51  <planetmaker> the date is terribly wrong
17:08:58  <Ammler> :-)
17:09:12  <Ammler> I would say, it is plain 0
17:09:26  <planetmaker> :-)
17:09:32  <planetmaker> I tend to agree :-)
17:09:43  <Ammler> or null
17:10:13  <planetmaker> and can I have it for a single project, too?
17:10:16  <Ammler> yorick:
17:11:51  <Ammler> pm, url?
17:12:49  <planetmaker> your choice, I'd say :)
17:12:59  <planetmaker> .../atom2png/<project>?
17:17:29  <Ammler> no
17:17:42  <Ammler> I meant, do you have a example atom feed
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17:32:29  <yorick> Ammler: it uses the hg project atom feeds now
17:32:49  <yorick> and it uses the "published" date
17:35:03  <Ammler> yorick: it should use redmine atom feeds
17:35:14  <Ammler> that was the reason for atom
17:35:23  <Ammler> hgweb has rss
17:35:30  <yorick> Ammler: then you need to change "published" to "updated"
17:35:32  <yorick> ;)
17:35:35  <yorick> in the source
17:35:41  <yorick> it'll be compatible with both
17:37:01  <Ammler> ok
17:37:07  <Ammler>
17:37:51  <yorick> :)
17:38:01  <yorick> and now for the projects? :p
18:04:03  <Brot6> firs: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
18:04:13  <Brot6> opengfx: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
18:19:31  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #98: Sprites 4480:4492 (13) - Office blocks @ (by foobar)
18:27:25  <Ammler> FooBar_: :P
18:27:47  <Ammler> well, you should have easy parts too ;-)
18:29:28  * FooBar_ wonders why is broken
18:30:16  <FooBar_> ah, because the csv is broken
18:30:27  <Ammler> I was wondering, why it replaced the whole file
18:30:29  <FooBar_> it should be ;-seperated and not tab-seperated
18:30:32  <Ammler> :-(
18:31:00  <Ammler> but then I thought, it is just some silly linefeeds and didn't make proper check
18:31:15  <Ammler> SORRY about
18:31:23  <Ammler> shall I revert as I am quitly?
18:31:27  <FooBar_> well, you can fix it ;)
18:31:42  <FooBar_> no need to be very sorry :P
18:31:52  <Ammler> <-- will code that house too?
18:31:54  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - [8bpp] Graphics Replacement Project - OpenGFX (at
18:32:07  <FooBar_> I haven't claimed that
18:32:15  <FooBar_> (yet)
18:32:15  <Ammler> it is the same ticket :P
18:32:18  <FooBar_> so you still can
18:32:29  <FooBar_> d'oh!
18:32:29  <Ammler> :-)
18:32:35  <FooBar_> oh, well then I better code it
18:32:50  <Ammler> I am happy, if you do.
18:37:02  <FooBar_> I already resized the sprites to the easy size... :P
18:40:34  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 100: Fix r97: the author overview uses ";" as field delimeter @ (by Ammler)
18:41:15  <Ammler> I risk my internet connection to test it
18:41:52  <planetmaker> by what guidlines or rules get house sprites cut into their parts? Me wonders...
18:46:59  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #104: Sprites 4614:4619 (6) - Modern office block @ (by Ammler)
18:46:59  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #104 (Assigned): Sprites 4614:4619 (6) - Modern office block @ (by Ammler)
18:49:59  <Ammler> <-- this is tropic and could be moved with the tropic church to beta
18:50:16  <Ammler> so we could release the alpha5
18:51:03  <Ammler> <-- also tropic?
18:51:37  <FooBar_> planetmaker: none, just make sure you don't overlap as that looks weird in transparent mode. I usually cut straight as that's easiery, but cutting along the edge of a tile works just as fine
18:53:45  <planetmaker> FooBar_: any reason to cut it up then at all?
18:54:40  <FooBar_> If they exceed their bounding boxes too much, they get cropped by the game. If they overlap, you get darker parts in transparent mode which looks weird.
18:55:13  <FooBar_> I noticed the first while coding vehicles. I noticed the second while coding FIRS :P
18:55:55  <planetmaker> :P
18:56:02  <planetmaker> What defines their bounding box?
18:56:05  <Ammler> FooBar_: is your "silly" tram track set GPL too?
18:56:15  <FooBar_> nope
18:56:18  <Ammler> hmm
18:56:19  <planetmaker> (sorry for the stupid questions, they're certainly explained *somewhere*)
18:56:22  <FooBar_> The bits of it that are in OpenGFX are though :P
18:56:27  <Ammler> :')
18:56:45  <Ammler> no, it is fine
18:56:48  <FooBar_> planetmaker: no problem :)
18:57:14  <FooBar_> Ammler: my future tram track project will be GPL though, as I'm having a repo for that with DevZone ;)
18:57:35  <Ammler> I thought about using them to try the caple train
18:58:05  <FooBar_> The current ones are either CC BY-NC-SA or CC BY-NC-ND. The latter being an error which I never fixed
18:59:13  <FooBar_> You're allowed to use anything from my tram track set and release it under GPL if you want.
18:59:41  <planetmaker> :)
18:59:43  <FooBar_> I'm not relicensing the set right now, but I give you special permission to do so :)
18:59:44  * planetmaker hugs FooBar_
18:59:50  <Ammler> not the tram track set
18:59:56  <FooBar_> ?
19:00:00  <Ammler> the one where you have that overhead track
19:00:07  <Ammler> or is that zephs?
19:00:20  <FooBar_> what's this then: <Ammler>	FooBar_: is your "silly" tram track set GPL too? :S
19:00:33  <Ammler> "silly"
19:00:38  <Ammler> :-)
19:00:42  <FooBar_> hehe :)
19:00:45  <planetmaker> :)
19:00:49  <FooBar_> then you need Zeph...
19:00:55  <Ammler> it isn't in our pack
19:01:03  <Ammler> so I don't know the correct name
19:01:08  <FooBar_> I didn't do that one
19:01:12  <Ammler> I know all NewGRFs in our set :P
19:01:16  <FooBar_> urban suspended monorail if I'm not mistaken
19:01:19  <Ammler> pack*
19:01:29  <FooBar_> :)
19:02:44  * FooBar_ thinks planetmaker has been hugging him for long enough now
19:06:37  <planetmaker> :P
19:06:38  <FooBar_> I've broken OpenGFX compilation...
19:06:52  <planetmaker> :(
19:07:03  * planetmaker quickly unhugs FooBar_
19:07:05  <planetmaker> :P
19:07:14  <FooBar_> :)
19:07:18  <Ammler> "Update the pack but remove the "BaNaNaS" grfs." might win
19:07:36  <FooBar_> I think that's the most sensible option
19:07:40  <planetmaker> kinda to expect, isn't it?
19:07:44  <FooBar_> Oh, I already posted that... :)
19:07:48  <Ammler> :P
19:07:51  <planetmaker> lol
19:08:02  <Ammler> I already made such commits
19:09:37  <Ammler> r543: Remove: use BaNaNaS :-)
19:09:58  <Ammler> r647: BaNaNaS
19:10:23  <Ammler> I feared that I need to revert those
19:11:14  <Ammler> I guess, I will create some tickets, so we see what to do with the pack.
19:21:09  <yorick> Ammler: I made that atom2png for use with worldairlinerset signature, could you at least make it so that I can specify it to use that feed? :-P
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19:51:56  <andythenorth_>
19:52:02  <andythenorth_> oops
19:52:06  <andythenorth_> wrong app
19:52:08  <andythenorth_> :)
19:56:05  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 101: Feature: Arctic office blocks (Born Acorn) (closes #98, closes #103) @ (by foobar)
19:56:05  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #98 (Closed): Sprites 4480:4492 (13) - Office blocks @ (by foobar)
19:56:06  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #103 (Closed): Sprites 4583:4587 (5) - Snow buildings @ (by foobar)
19:56:21  <FooBar_> here we go
19:56:30  <FooBar_> did we want to do alpha-5 now?
19:58:35  <yorick> hmm, there was a PLINK.EXE in my background
19:58:37  <yorick> with 30% cpu
19:59:08  <planetmaker> FooBar_: sounds actually like an idea :)
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20:06:21  <FooBar_> then I'll make one change to authoroverview and add a tag...
20:06:38  <FooBar_> Did I need to tag /before/ or /after/ commit?
20:07:22  <Ammler> [21:21] <yorick> Ammler: I made that atom2png for use with worldairlinerset signature, could you at least make it so that I can specify it to use that feed?   <-- :-D
20:08:20  <Ammler> [21:56] <FooBar_> did we want to do alpha-5 now? <-- the curch
20:08:34  <FooBar_> ah... indeed...
20:09:11  <FooBar_> well, then I'll add that as well and then do alpha-5
20:09:19  <FooBar_> still, need to tag /before/ or /after/ commit?
20:09:38  <planetmaker> FooBar_: a tag is like a commit.
20:09:44  <FooBar_> oh ok
20:09:48  <planetmaker> So do what needs changing, commit that and then tag
20:09:56  <FooBar_> so after ;)
20:09:59  <FooBar_> thanks
20:10:00  <planetmaker> yes :)
20:10:42  <planetmaker> FooBar_: changelog...
20:10:51  <planetmaker> I can do that, if you give me the time
20:10:59  <FooBar_> ok, then I'll give you time
20:11:06  <Ammler> :-)
20:11:08  <FooBar_> Maybe you can tag once that's done then?
20:11:16  <Ammler> then you do the curch in that time FooBar_?
20:11:30  <FooBar_> I already started on the church :)
20:11:31  <Ammler> or shall I do that, if you give me the time :P
20:11:37  <Ammler> oh, nice
20:11:39  <FooBar_> I can give you time...
20:11:42  <Ammler> no
20:11:46  <FooBar_> :P
20:11:46  <Ammler> use it self :
20:12:51  <FooBar_> aren't there any snow versions?
20:13:24  <FooBar_> oh, he actually added it to the other issue :P
20:16:17  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #78 (Closed): pbs graphics @ (by Ammler)
20:17:56  <Ammler> <-- water bug?
20:19:15  <Ammler> <-- don't see a airport bug
20:21:06  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Support #156: Temperate sprites for toyland @ (by Ammler)
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20:25:04  <Ammler> <-- I don't have this renum error
20:25:42  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 102: Cleanup: renum is silent about override sprites now. @ (by Ammler)
20:27:51  <planetmaker> may I commit?
20:27:51  <planetmaker> oh, wait, what do you implement now, FooBar_ ?
20:27:57  <Ammler> :-)
20:28:00  <FooBar_> the arctic church
20:28:09  <FooBar_> haven't committed anything yet...
20:28:12  <planetmaker> give me your commit message now :)
20:28:28  <planetmaker> yes, I only saw brot talking and thought it was you...
20:28:32  <Ammler> <-- british semaphores?
20:28:52  <FooBar_> Feature: Arctic church (Gen.Sniper) (closes #96, closes #101)
20:29:15  <planetmaker> :)
20:29:17  <planetmaker> thanks
20:29:26  <FooBar_> ok...
20:29:36  <planetmaker> you first or me first?
20:29:41  <FooBar_> you first
20:29:46  <FooBar_> I'm not even close to commit
20:29:53  <planetmaker> and... the maglev, Ammler - is it Born Acorns?
20:30:03  <Ammler> yes
20:30:03  <planetmaker> Then I missed that in the commit log somehow... :P
20:30:07  <planetmaker> ok
20:30:17  <Ammler> r75 or 76
20:31:02  <Ammler> r95: Feature #102: Born Acorn's monolev engines and passenger wagon. (finally ;-)
20:33:22  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Bug #130 (Closed): investigate renum error on ogfxe.nfo @ (by Ammler)
20:33:57  <planetmaker> indeed missed it.
20:37:22  <Ammler> <-- planetmaker, do you see the alignment issue here?
20:37:40  <FooBar_> bottom left sprite
20:37:47  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Bug #231: Action colors removed from intro grf @ (by Ammler)
20:38:34  <planetmaker> but I don't really see it...
20:39:17  <Ammler> only toyland airport?
20:39:37  <Ammler> then, I move it to beta1
20:40:15  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 103: Doc: Prepare changelog.txt for alpha5 release @ (by planetmaker)
20:42:09  <planetmaker> btw, we're getting better with our commit messages.
20:42:15  <FooBar_> Hmpf...the arctic church is an arctic church, but the shops and offices as well :S
20:42:38  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Bug #222: Alignment of airport runway sprites @ (by Ammler)
20:42:41  <Ammler> hmm?
20:42:54  <planetmaker> In the beginning they're terrible. And using consequently the prefixes like Change, Fix, Feature, Add and Doc really helps in changelog.txt generation :)
20:43:19  <Ammler> I guess, specially mine are :-)
20:43:27  <planetmaker> yes :P
20:43:51  <FooBar_> I messed up maybe one or two as well
20:44:47  <Ammler> FooBar_: can we move that semaphore bug too?
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20:45:12  <FooBar_> Ammler: yes we can! :P
20:45:24  <Ammler> mmmäh
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20:45:35  <FooBar_> the shops and offices-thing is a bug in OpenTTD. It does that with the TTD graphics as well...
20:46:30  <FooBar_> can I commit something?
20:46:35  <Ammler> what are you speaking about?
20:46:36  <planetmaker> if you pull, yes
20:46:46  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Bug #74: other semaphore type missing @ (by Ammler)
20:47:06  <Ammler> hmm, those house alignment
20:47:22  <Ammler> I liked to make a script which adds all sprties to a station newgrf
20:47:40  <Ammler> so you could allign them with it.
20:47:50  <Ammler> I meant the check at aleast
20:49:01  <Ammler> planetmaker: you forgot to reference the issue :P
20:49:07  <Ammler>
20:49:24  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 104: Feature: Arctic church (Gen.Sniper) (closes #96, closes #101) @ (by foobar)
20:49:24  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #101 (Closed): Sprites 4579:4579 (1) - Snow arctic church @ (by foobar)
20:49:24  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #96 (Closed): Sprites 4462:4465 (4) - Arctic church @ (by foobar)
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20:51:08  <planetmaker> Ammler: yes...
20:51:17  <planetmaker> I guess that's something for the next release :)
20:51:34  <planetmaker> and: making good commit messages helps A LOT with that :)
20:51:48  <Ammler> what is the target for release now?
20:52:06  <FooBar_> make release?
20:52:11  <Ammler> :-D
20:52:12  <planetmaker> ^
20:52:14  <planetmaker> :)
20:52:16  <Ammler> that is too obvious
20:52:40  <planetmaker> probably you want make release_zip
20:52:52  <planetmaker> shall I tag?
20:53:04  <planetmaker> or should I leave that to the project leader? ;)
20:53:11  <Ammler> oh, indeed, we need tag
20:53:39  <planetmaker> alpha5
20:53:40  <Ammler> that is the last commit then :P
20:53:46  <planetmaker> or what?
20:53:46  <Ammler> more
20:53:58  <Ammler> 0.1.0-alpha5
20:54:06  <planetmaker> 0.1.0-alpha5 is it then.
20:54:33  <Ammler> else I do it on the server :P
20:54:38  <Ammler> anonymous :P
20:54:47  <FooBar_> go ahead and tag...
20:54:55  <FooBar_> I'll be watching tv in a moment
20:55:04  <FooBar_> 0.1.0-alpha5 is good :)
20:55:44  <FooBar_> I'll do the forum announcement in an hour then
20:55:49  <Ammler> tag is done
20:56:04  <Ammler> and bananas
20:56:10  <planetmaker> mäh
20:56:23  <planetmaker> and you created now two heads here, Ammler
20:56:31  <planetmaker> you should say that you tag
20:56:37  <Ammler> oh you made the tag?
20:56:40  <Ammler> lol
20:56:51  <planetmaker> pushed
20:56:55  <Ammler> [22:54] <Ammler> else I do it on the server  [22:54] <Ammler> anonymous
20:57:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 106: Added tag 0.1.0-alpha5 for changeset e21fc97d5899 @ (by planetmaker)
20:57:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 105: Added tag 0.1.0-alpha5 for changeset e21fc97d5899 @ (by ottdc@mozart)
20:57:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 107: Merge: r104, 105... @ (by planetmaker)
20:57:13  <planetmaker> [22:51]	<planetmaker>	shall I tag?
20:57:14  <planetmaker> [22:51]	<planetmaker>	or should I leave that to the project leader? ;)
20:57:26  <Ammler> hmm
20:57:29  <planetmaker> Ammler: fix your .hgrc
20:57:31  <Ammler> I remove those
20:57:42  <planetmaker> ?
20:57:44  <Ammler> why did you push that?
20:57:54  <planetmaker> why not?
20:58:01  <Ammler> because it is the same :P
20:58:35  <Ammler> I strip them away... very silly isn't?
20:58:53  <planetmaker> nah. Constantly stripping from a public repo is silly
20:58:59  <Ammler> [22:54] <Ammler> anonymous
20:59:27  <Ammler> commits I do from server are ottdc@mozart
20:59:35  <Ammler> might be someone else
20:59:36  <planetmaker> and I don't have strip here...
20:59:50  <planetmaker> well... why do it at the server?
21:00:05  <planetmaker> it kinda refutes the purpose of tracking who did what, doesn't it?
21:00:05  <Ammler> as you saw the 2 heads, why did you merge, don't get that,?
21:01:05  <Ammler> there are some other commit from ottdc
21:01:28  <Ammler> you don't like that?
21:01:53  <Ammler> I think, it is better, as I would use Ammler
21:02:21  <Ammler> strip is distributed with core mercurial
21:02:47  <Ammler> even can strip
21:03:56  <Ammler> well, anyway, you should explain me, why you merged those heads :-D
21:06:14  <Ammler> isilence
21:06:18  <planetmaker> ..
21:06:26  <planetmaker> I don't know what commit that was?
21:06:39  <Ammler> you merge without checking what?
21:06:48  <planetmaker> if it works, yes
21:07:04  <Ammler> hmm, why didn't that conflict?
21:07:07  <planetmaker> if it doesn't work it will tell me
21:07:12  <planetmaker> because it's exactly the same
21:07:29  <Ammler> and that shouldn't conflict?
21:08:03  <planetmaker> would be stupid, eh?
21:08:07  <Ammler> I strip the last 3 commits on the server, so you can push again, ok?
21:08:19  <planetmaker> then I push everything again
21:08:32  <planetmaker> or I'd need to completely re-checkout opengfx
21:08:56  <Ammler> well, up2you
21:09:23  <planetmaker> hg strip
21:09:24  <planetmaker> hg: unknown command 'strip'
21:09:36  <Ammler> looks very silly
21:10:17  <planetmaker> yes. Let it be a reminder that we shouldn't be stupid
21:10:51  <planetmaker> or tell me how I strip that stuff from my repo here.
21:11:00  <planetmaker> and possibly others, too
21:11:07  <Ammler> very old mercurial version?
21:11:12  <planetmaker> 1.2.1
21:11:13  <Ammler> or is it a extension?
21:11:19  <planetmaker> obviously
21:11:33  <Ammler> =
21:11:35  <Ammler> hgext.hgview=/home/marcel/hg/hgview/hgext/
21:11:36  <Ammler> convert =
21:11:38  <Ammler> hgk=
21:12:15  <Ammler> Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 1.3)
21:12:34  <planetmaker> that's like 7 days old... ^
21:12:43  <Ammler> but server has Mercurial Distributed SCM (version 1.2.1)
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21:13:12  <Ammler> > hg strip
21:13:14  <Ammler> hg strip: invalid arguments
21:13:34  <planetmaker> with 1.3 or 1.2.1?
21:13:48  <Ammler> 1.2.1
21:13:54  <Ammler> it is with mq ?
21:14:10  <Ammler> or convert
21:14:15  <Ammler> those 2 are on the server
21:14:46  <planetmaker> mq
21:16:53  <planetmaker> if I add mq to this repo, I have it, too
21:17:54  <Ammler> wait stip is even cooler
21:18:05  <Ammler> I stripped r105
21:18:17  <Ammler> and it automatically removed your merge too
21:18:24  <Ammler> but kept your real commit
21:18:28  <Ammler> which is now 105
21:18:28  <planetmaker> how?
21:18:51  <Ammler>
21:19:22  <planetmaker> gimme your command please
21:19:45  <planetmaker> I need to do exactly the same or it won't last
21:20:45  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 101: Feature: Arctic office blocks (Born Acorn) (closes #98, closes #103) @ (by foobar)
21:20:45  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #103 (Closed): Sprites 4583:4587 (5) - Snow buildings @ (by foobar)
21:21:05  <planetmaker> Ammler: ?
21:21:36  <Ammler> hg strip <myuglycommit>
21:21:45  <planetmaker> please copy&paste
21:21:46  <Ammler> on the server it was 105
21:22:24  <Ammler> do hg log -l3
21:22:39  <Ammler> then check for the commit from ottdc@mozart
21:22:54  <Ammler> then "hg strip <rev>"
21:23:25  <Ammler> but as you had to merge, it might be r106 for you
21:23:30  <planetmaker> hm... removed wrong one. removed other, pulled :P
21:24:06  <planetmaker> indeed. revisions are not the same :P
21:24:11  <planetmaker> the bane of DVCS
21:24:16  <Ammler> I liked your commit more, so I removed mine
21:24:26  <planetmaker> why are mine better?
21:24:35  <Ammler> you mentioned the hash
21:24:52  <Ammler> or
21:24:52  <planetmaker> btw, when commiting from the server, you could use hg ci -u Ammler -m "blubber"
21:24:57  <Ammler> was that hg which did it?
21:24:59  <Ammler> or
21:25:09  <Ammler> well anayway,
21:25:12  <planetmaker> it's hg
21:25:12  <Ammler> done now :P
21:25:14  <planetmaker> :)
21:25:43  <Ammler> yeah, but I thought, I like to use there explicitely ottdc
21:26:03  <Ammler> so "someone" sees, it was made on the server
21:26:17  <Ammler> like as I committed something for is2
21:26:21  <Ammler> where I am not dev
21:26:34  <planetmaker> ha, make release works woooo!
21:26:50  <planetmaker> what's the use of "made on server"?
21:27:04  <planetmaker> hm...
21:27:38  <planetmaker> I don't think it makes sense.
21:27:44  <planetmaker> Because it was still you
21:27:54  <planetmaker> and the place you do something doesn't matter
21:28:31  <planetmaker> at least not for the repo :)
21:28:44  <planetmaker> there are good reasons to do something here and not there, though :)
21:28:45  <Ammler> mäh, the sample local file is very lmited on opengfx :-)
21:29:01  <planetmaker> hm, I assume. What's missing?
21:29:12  <planetmaker> Well, anything in config can be added
21:30:09  <planetmaker> he.... release_zip doesn't work
21:31:01  <Ammler> release_zip : No such file or directory
21:31:05  <Ammler> hi
21:31:12  <planetmaker> replace $@ by $<
21:31:21  <planetmaker> 	$(ZIP) $(ZIP_FLAGS) $(ZIP_FILENAME) $<
21:31:37  <Ammler> well
21:32:01  <planetmaker> but then you create alpha5M :P
21:32:51  <Ammler> hmm, the readme?
21:33:16  <Ammler> indeed M :-)
21:33:39  <planetmaker> makefile changed. So it's modified ;)
21:33:59  <planetmaker> release works. You could then zip by hand :P
21:34:04  <planetmaker> commited fix.
21:34:36  <Ammler> well, too late
21:34:44  <Ammler> we need to update the readme
21:34:48  <planetmaker> for alpha5, yes
21:34:56  <planetmaker> hu?
21:35:02  <planetmaker> for what?
21:35:29  <planetmaker> why?
21:36:13  <planetmaker> ...
21:36:21  <Ammler> because we said, that the wiki is master, didn't we?
21:36:44  <planetmaker> ok. what is missing?
21:36:44  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 106: Fix: release_zip didn't do the right thing [TM] @ (by planetmaker)
21:36:58  <Ammler> and i.e. the order of the credits is wrong in the txt
21:37:09  <planetmaker> doesn#t matter for the release
21:37:20  <planetmaker> we should now publish that and then fix it.
21:37:31  <planetmaker> it _really_ doesn't matter
21:37:40  <Ammler> well, it matters for the release, what else?
21:37:59  <planetmaker> the _order_ of the credits?
21:38:01  <Ammler> I agree if born acorn is in
21:38:06  <planetmaker> come on!
21:38:36  <Ammler> he isn't
21:38:44  <Ammler> imo, that matters
21:38:58  <Ammler> well, we can change that manually
21:39:16  <Ammler> no need to make new tag, if you don't want
21:39:27  <Ammler> else we could just strip again :P
21:39:45  <planetmaker> go ahead. I'm off to bed
21:40:10  <Ammler> :-)
21:40:22  <Ammler> means you agree, I can do
21:40:35  <Ammler> or you don't agree but you don't care?
21:40:43  <Ammler> :-D
21:40:58  <planetmaker> don't strip. But do what you think needs doing
21:42:42  <Ammler> imo we should make the pdf
21:42:58  <Ammler> until we have a "clean" txt
21:44:04  <planetmaker> what's wrong with the txt?
21:44:57  <Ammler> or we add born acorn manually?
21:45:20  <Ammler> well, we leave it up 2 FooBar_
21:46:31  <planetmaker> what about you commit all those changes you deem necessary? hm?
21:47:06  <planetmaker> and when you're satisfied move the tag
21:49:54  <Ammler> I asked that already this evening
21:49:59  <Ammler> seems we didn't agree
21:50:11  <Ammler> which is the "master" readme?
21:50:25  <Ammler> (I don't care, I just need to know)
21:51:19  <planetmaker> foobar said wiki
21:51:22  <planetmaker> so wiki it is
21:54:25  <FooBar_> I missed something?
21:57:51  <FooBar_> I already added Born Acorn to wiki credits and just did for Gen.Sniper
21:59:09  <planetmaker> Ammler still has problems to call the taged version a release because those two names are missing in the enclosed do-not-readme.txt
21:59:58  <Ammler> :-)
21:59:59  <planetmaker> and because the order of names differ
22:00:13  <Ammler> well, order is 2nd
22:00:16  <planetmaker> but doesn't dare to update and re-tag
22:00:18  <Ammler> but the names should be in
22:00:23  <planetmaker> go!
22:00:26  <Ammler> :-)
22:00:35  <planetmaker> instead of constantly complaining...
22:00:40  <Ammler> :P
22:01:16  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 137: Added (After renum) @ (by Beardie27)
22:01:57  <FooBar_> I don't really care about the order of names, but I do think those two people need to be credited properly.
22:03:34  <Ammler> will we add them to the txt?
22:03:42  <Ammler> or a wiki pdf?
22:03:55  <Ammler> as we need to replace the readme anyway
22:04:06  <Brot6> opengfx: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
22:04:38  <FooBar_> I just added them to the text and updated another line
22:09:07  <Ammler> dead?
22:11:31  <FooBar_> yes
22:11:50  <FooBar_> changed host a while back and never bothered to put it back up
22:12:32  <Ammler> dead?
22:13:20  <Ammler> I made a bit advertising at #openttd :-)
22:13:36  <Ammler> people don't like the maglev tracks
22:13:49  <Ammler> so I showed yours
22:15:42  <Ammler> ok, FooBar_, do you commit the readme change?
22:15:50  <Ammler> and also "retag"
22:15:56  <FooBar_> I messed something up...
22:16:15  <FooBar_> I tried to remove tag, but actually added a new one
22:16:18  <Ammler> I would change the nick from mb to mb
22:16:42  <Ammler> I remember a talk in the forums, that he would like to use that :-)
22:16:47  <FooBar_> now I want to go back to pm's last commit, but can't figure out how...
22:16:58  <FooBar_> hg tip still shows my mess-up
22:16:58  <Ammler> hg rollback
22:17:13  <FooBar_> "no rollback information available"
22:17:25  <Ammler> hg strip <rev> then :-)
22:17:57  <FooBar_> unknown command 'strip' :S
22:18:09  <Ammler> in your mercurial.ini
22:18:23  <Ammler> section [extensions]
22:18:49  <Ammler> =
22:19:36  <FooBar_> :)
22:20:53  <Ammler> btw, only strip things on you local side
22:21:10  <Ammler> on the server only, if you are sure, nobody did pull
22:21:57  <FooBar_> I didn't commit...
22:22:04  <FooBar_> errr...push
22:22:54  <FooBar_> now it should be alright.
22:23:01  <FooBar_> and now I go to bed :P
22:23:07  <FooBar_> announcement can wait...
22:23:10  <FooBar_> good night!
22:24:15  <Ammler> hehe
22:25:04  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 107: Removed tag 0.1.0-alpha5 @ (by foobar)
22:25:04  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 108: Doc: update readme and changelog. @ (by foobar)
22:25:04  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 109: Added tag 0.1.0-alpha5 for changeset cfc4823e9ad0 @ (by foobar)
22:28:53  <Ammler> oh well
23:55:22  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Bug #77: town building misalignment @ (by Ammler)
23:55:22  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #92: Update changelog.txt @ (by Ammler)

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