Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 24th August 2009:
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01:33:33  <Brot6> Backup done! (Usage: 94M)
01:33:33  <Brot6> I've got an IDEA!! Why don't I STARE at you so HARD, you forget your SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER!!
05:24:48  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: Example NewGRF Project - Revision 32: Doc: Add a quickstart guide to readme @ (by planetmaker)
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05:58:56  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: Example NewGRF Project - Revision 33: Change: Disable warnings directly in the nfo files and don'... @ (by planetmaker)
06:23:02  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: Example NewGRF Project - Revision 34: Fix: Compile this sample newgrf without errors @ (by planetmaker)
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12:17:20  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Bug #496: 737-400 Alignment @ (by FaddyPainter)
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14:17:52  <Beardie> hey planetmaker
14:18:55  <Beardie> Ammler is it pretty easy to set up a project on your site?
14:19:12  <Ammler> yes, it is.
14:19:21  <Ammler> as manager you can just create it self
14:19:31  <Beardie> good because in the next few days you may be recieving the BR Set
14:19:38  <Ammler> an Admin just need to init the repo
14:19:43  <Beardie> even if Leanden doesn't like or not
14:19:57  <Beardie> ok thanks Ammler
14:20:00  <Ammler> he was once here, but I didn't get an answer.
14:20:05  <Beardie> well
14:20:19  <Rubidium> it's very annoying to set up a repo :) thinking you've got some Makefile constructed that builds you stuff and then someone else commits it... ;)
14:20:19  <Beardie> i don;t care what he thinks i am determined to get the project coded
14:21:02  <Beardie> even if i am working on WAS
14:21:10  <Beardie> its a mess and they need some one to fix it
14:21:13  <Beardie> and i volenterr
14:21:21  <Beardie> even if the project has been going for 6 years
14:21:24  <Ammler> oh well, I don't care.
14:21:27  <Beardie> i will finish it
14:21:35  <Beardie> lol your not British lol]
14:21:39  <Ammler> you are free to use it or not :-)
14:21:48  <Beardie> anyway brb train coming special one
14:21:52  <Beardie> thanks brb
14:21:56  <Ammler> and if it is GPL, you can use the makefile template from pm
14:22:27  <Ammler> or also the templates, DJN made for the monorail set
14:22:57  <Ammler> it makes makein MUs very simple
14:23:09  <planetmaker> :-P
14:23:17  <planetmaker> Rubidium, bad, bad :-) I know
14:23:57  <Ammler> well, as long as it works, I wouldn't like to restrict repo access. Or is it something else you speak about?
14:24:29  <planetmaker> indeed. The Example NewGRF can only be used for GPL'ed stuff
14:24:44  <planetmaker> or projects where I re-license it specifically :-)
14:25:14  <planetmaker> like the 2cctrainset. But I plan to make it an exception :-)
14:25:20  <Ammler> something, mostly the painters needs to be aware off, for coders, it is obvious.
14:25:27  <Ammler> -f
14:25:54  <Ammler> planetmaker: you can use it for whatever you like ;-)
14:26:38  <Ammler> or are there some serious contributiors, you would need to ask?
14:26:45  <Ammler> maybe Rubi :-)
14:26:52  <planetmaker> Ammler, exactly. The advantage of being the author :-P
14:27:43  <planetmaker> Interesting question. If I accept patches by other people and commit them. May I still re-license the stuff?
14:28:02  <Rubidium> under certain circumstances you may
14:28:30  <planetmaker> what would those be in your eyes?
14:28:39  <Rubidium> although those certain circumstances contain contracts giving you the copyright
14:28:46  <planetmaker> :-)
14:28:54  <Rubidium> or all copyright holders agreeing on the relicensing
14:29:28  <planetmaker> well, that's something which always works. Both of it, sure.
14:29:31  <Rubidium> (although just reduces the "all copyright holders" of the second to "you"
14:29:38  <Beardie> back
14:29:41  <Rubidium> front
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14:30:35  <planetmaker> lol
14:31:50  <planetmaker> Rubidium, but what about these borderline cases where, in this example, you post a patch with "this fixes the dependencies" and I commit it then as I see it fit.
14:32:22  <planetmaker> would you also have copyright on the source then?
14:32:40  <Rubidium> depends on whether the change is copyrighted/copyrightable
14:33:03  <Rubidium> though don't ask me where that gray area it starts/ends
14:33:22  <planetmaker> the latter (copyrightable) certainly is subject to legal debate :-)
14:33:31  <planetmaker> But that may be the whole makefile...
14:33:44  <Rubidium> IANALAASALSTISMNBT
14:34:05  <planetmaker> it's nothing which the manuals won't teach...
14:34:12  <planetmaker> yes... IANAL... whatever.
14:34:14  <planetmaker> :-P
14:34:46  <Rubidium> hmm, maybe I should introduce a new one:
14:34:53  <Rubidium> IANALADYLABBQ
14:35:07  <planetmaker> BBQ sounds good :-P
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15:41:22  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 503: Added New A318/319/320-200 Schemes, Coded them, also updated ... @ (by Beardie27)
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15:44:11  <DJNekkid> hi guys
15:46:23  <DJNekkid> i were wondering... isnt is possible to make the "make" system faster?
15:46:32  <DJNekkid> the NMTS takes really really long time to process
15:50:39  <Rubidium> unlikely; make is designed to not do things that aren't necessary, so everything that gets done is necessary
15:50:48  <Rubidium> although, you're using Windows?
15:52:21  <Rubidium> it only takes 2 seconds
15:52:25  <Rubidium> (on my system)
15:53:40  <DJNekkid> yes, windows xp
15:54:01  <Rubidium> OSFX takes 3 seconds, OGFX 8 seconds
15:54:22  <Rubidium> executing scripts on windows isn't "fast"
15:54:28  <Rubidium> it's actually quite horribly slow
15:54:36  <Rubidium> and the makefile executes some scripts
15:54:46  <Rubidium> not much that can be done about that though
15:55:00  <DJNekkid> takes about 16sec to compile nmts on my computer
15:55:03  <Rubidium> except running an OS that's faster with that regard
15:55:37  <DJNekkid> with "pure" renum and grfcodec it takes, i dunno 2 sec or similar
15:56:02  <DJNekkid> it feels "instant"
15:57:21  <Rubidium> though those two don't do everything that is needed
15:58:03  <Rubidium> e.g. the version number in the NFO doesn't get updated
15:58:16  <DJNekkid> unless planetmaker changed alot in there, the only thing it does, from my point of view, is change
15:58:22  <DJNekkid> -1 * 0	 08 07 {{GRF_ID}} "{{GRF_TITLE}}" 00 "Drawn by .............
15:59:21  <DJNekkid> well, it substitutes grf_id with the id, and grf_title with the actual title...
15:59:57  <Rubidium> and the nfo is split in lots of little files
16:00:02  <Rubidium> which are merged together
16:00:14  <DJNekkid> that i did as well with my batfile...
16:01:10  <DJNekkid> copy sprites\nfo\*.nfo+sprites\nfomus\*.nfo sprites\nmts.nfo
16:01:13  <DJNekkid> then renums that file
16:01:17  <DJNekkid> and grfcodec' it
16:03:39  <Ammler> that looks like sed, not gcc preprocessor
16:03:59  <Ammler> so you could do it with your batch file, but...
16:11:26  <DJNekkid> hehe
16:12:50  <DJNekkid> its not that i mind useing the make-system, but it takes, in my eyes, too much time to do "the same" ...
16:18:01  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: nightly compile not needed. (r247)
16:18:01  <Brot6> firs: nightly compile not needed. (r213)
16:18:01  <Brot6> fish: update from r60 to r64, starting nightly compile
16:18:18  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 504: Fixed A320-200 Condor Berlin Allignment @ (by Beardie27)
16:18:19  <Brot6> fish: compile done (0 errors) -
16:18:19  <Brot6> heqs: nightly compile not needed. (r169)
16:18:19  <Brot6> opengfx: nightly compile not needed. (r200)
16:18:20  <Brot6> opensfx: nightly compile not needed. (r41)
16:18:23  <Brot6> worldairlineset: update from r501 to r504, starting nightly compile
16:18:58  <Brot6> worldairlineset: compile done (1 errors) -
16:19:50  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: New Monorail & Maglev TrainSet - Revision 4: changed the names on some files @ (by DJNekkid)
16:20:11  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, but it is not the same. It's actually MUCH more
16:20:25  <planetmaker> You have a system which automatically updates your version in both, readme and grf
16:20:38  <planetmaker> you can pack it for release or ingame testing.
16:20:53  <planetmaker> you can cleanup your whole mess
16:21:02  <planetmaker> and you make sure that other people get exactly the same
16:21:32  <DJNekkid> hehe, well ...
16:21:41  <DJNekkid> no doubt, but still :)
16:22:04  <planetmaker> you can do your windows bat file. But don't expect me to support that project then. I'm simply not able to follow it then
16:22:30  <planetmaker> that's it in blunt words. Also you cannot expect then ever nightlies
16:22:42  <planetmaker> as that system depends on that exact makefile as it is
16:22:54  <planetmaker> in blunt words: simple as that.
16:23:23  <planetmaker> all this is bought, of course, with a bit of overhead. But 16 seconds is... SLOW.
16:23:29  <planetmaker> it's no time virtually on my computer
16:24:52  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, for your ease for new projects I updated the readme of the example newgrf
16:25:10  <planetmaker> It requires you only to copy that example newgrf and change three lines in Makefile.config
16:25:36  <Ammler> DJNekkid: btw. 2cc set has around 5 errors with nforenum
16:25:43  <planetmaker> after you copied the project
16:25:52  <planetmaker> Ammler, uh? still?
16:26:16  <DJNekkid> Ammler? it is? well ... there is no pause after renum before codec, so i cant see them :)
16:26:40  <Ammler> yes, //!!Warning (97): Set 05 defined by the previous Action 1 (sprite 1103) has not been used.
16:27:31  <planetmaker> ah, those. Yes. They're unnecessary errors.
16:27:37  <DJNekkid> ehm, why is ALL commentes stripped from the .nfo ?
16:27:46  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, update, it shouldn't.
16:27:59  <DJNekkid> i just did
16:28:29  <planetmaker> 2cctrainset.nfo? Or which?
16:28:32  <DJNekkid> i assume its 2cctrainset.nfo i need to read?
16:28:37  <planetmaker> yes
16:28:59  <DJNekkid> not a single comment
16:29:08  <planetmaker> sprites/2cctrainset.nfo
16:29:14  <planetmaker> if you have another, that's from you
16:29:30  <planetmaker> I have all comments preserved here.
16:29:36  <planetmaker> what's your repo version?
16:29:44  <planetmaker> is it the same, if you do make remake?
16:29:57  <DJNekkid> i did make clean followed by a make
16:30:12  <Ammler> maybe you have a Makefile.local?
16:30:12  <planetmaker> you have version 247?
16:30:49  <DJNekkid> ye
16:30:50  <DJNekkid> s
16:30:58  <Ammler> then remove it ;-)
16:31:08  <DJNekkid> i ment, r247
16:31:23  <DJNekkid> but with a remake did it preserve the comments
16:31:49  <planetmaker> then it was an old nfo
16:31:58  <planetmaker> I just changed that the last version :-)
16:33:09  <Ammler> [18:26] <DJNekkid> Ammler? it is? well ... there is no pause after renum before codec, so i cant see them  <-- scroll back :-P
16:33:27  <Ammler> or use "make 1>log 2>errors"
16:34:32  <DJNekkid>
16:35:12  <DJNekkid> Ammler: i can scroll back, but i only get up to about middle of the grfcodec output
16:35:23  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, don't use \ on the end of line
16:35:34  <Ammler> DJNekkid: you escape the linefeed
16:35:51  <planetmaker> Never do that. I fixed two such errors just the other day.
16:35:59  <Ammler> or just add a space after \
16:36:00  <planetmaker> it's not a nfo error per se, though
16:37:37  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - @ (by Beardie27)
16:37:39  <Ammler> not sure, imo, it could be a bug of renum
16:37:53  <Ammler> oioi
16:38:06  <Ammler> so we can't use it :'-(
16:38:20  <DJNekkid> a linespace didnt fix it
16:38:20  <planetmaker> Ammler, no, it's the escaping of the newline which GCC messes
16:38:35  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, just don't use \ at the end of line. Do you need it?
16:38:49  <Ammler> DJNekkid: \>space>
16:39:07  <Ammler> \<space><dot>
16:39:16  <planetmaker> ^
16:39:54  <DJNekkid> planetmaker: need and need ... it were just a "pointer" of what spriteset it is
16:40:06  <Ammler> ah, it is messed up before renum?
16:40:09  <planetmaker> yeah. use what Ammler writes should work
16:40:38  <planetmaker> Ammler, it's in the source. And gcc treats that \ as escape sequence probably - thus commenting the follwing line, too
16:40:42  <Ammler> that is kinda silly, either.
16:41:03  <Ammler> ah
16:42:05  <DJNekkid> jesus, this old 2cc set code is ugly
16:42:11  <Ammler> :-)
16:42:31  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, yes, you need to clean up it quite a bit. :-P
16:42:32  <Ammler> we should btw. release another bugfix release
16:42:39  <planetmaker> of?
16:42:44  <Ammler> 2cc
16:42:50  <planetmaker> why?
16:43:01  <planetmaker> I see not many changes.
16:43:04  <Ammler> didn't you fix some alignment bugs
16:43:17  <planetmaker> I fixed quite a few white spaces and alignments, yes...
16:43:22  <planetmaker> but not sure how visible they are...
16:43:26  <DJNekkid> good boy :p
16:43:34  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, about 100...
16:43:40  <DJNekkid> wow! nice job!
16:44:06  <Ammler> in future, you should take every pure white error serious
16:44:31  <DJNekkid> well, that feature were introduced quite recently
16:44:43  <Ammler> nah
16:44:48  <planetmaker> not at all :-)
16:44:57  <Ammler> pure white error are reported since I know
16:45:05  <Ammler> just everybody ignored them
16:45:05  <planetmaker> it's older than you programme nfo
16:45:52  <DJNekkid> it were in the "nightly" grfcodecs possibly, but i didnt know about them...
16:46:20  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, also stable. I'm sure
16:46:20  <Ammler> you ignored them :P
16:46:48  <planetmaker> it's a warning worth since ages. As it's a principle way to show alignment errors. Actually the only one
16:46:49  <DJNekkid> no seriously...
16:46:53  <planetmaker> yes!
16:46:59  <Ammler> :-D
16:47:04  <DJNekkid> the version i used didnt have it!
16:47:19  <planetmaker> you turned it off, probably :-P
16:47:31  <Ammler> -q hides them, afaik
16:48:05  <DJNekkid> grfcodec -e -p2 <name> is what i've used!
16:48:23  <planetmaker> :-)
16:50:44  <Ammler> the pure white errors are "hidden" between the progress text, so you just didn't notice them.
16:52:11  <DJNekkid> that might be...
16:52:19  <DJNekkid> but still, i never saw such an error
16:52:35  <planetmaker> :-)
16:52:53  <planetmaker> yes, as those lines don't show too prominently between thos 90% redundancy lines
16:54:38  <Ammler> make | tee /dev/null <-- command to hide the progress text
16:55:47  * planetmaker tests
16:56:24  <planetmaker> cool. I'll remember that :-)
16:56:34  <planetmaker> though piping it into a file is better for future reference :-)
16:56:53  <Ammler> well, you could also ask Dalestan to include the "-s"
16:57:44  <DJNekkid> btw, im fixing the warnings
16:57:51  <Ammler> nice
16:58:21  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, that'd be awesome!
16:58:35  <planetmaker> Then we'll have according to the compile farm a flawless compile :-)
17:05:46  <DJNekkid> dammit, i hardly understand my own code!
17:06:37  <Ammler> Yeah, your cryption worked ;-)
17:07:01  <Ammler> but mu templates are awesome
17:07:09  <DJNekkid> version 2.0 will be WAY WAY WAY better!
17:08:39  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, maybe we should start v2 right now? With a complete clean start?
17:09:24  <planetmaker> Not sure exactly how we proceed. But maybe we could make it a sub-project. Put the nfo source in its own dir
17:09:26  <DJNekkid> tbh, i _should_ complete the dutchset first :)
17:09:42  <planetmaker> And then start from there. But re-using the sprites where applicable.
17:10:01  <planetmaker> it would need a bit of re-structuring the repo, though, I think
17:10:09  <DJNekkid> i know...
17:10:17  <DJNekkid> we should do it much simpler
17:10:28  <DJNekkid> just a "simple" MU-dir
17:10:33  <DJNekkid> with a <train>.pnfo
17:10:44  <DJNekkid> look like how its done in the dutchset...
17:11:00  <DJNekkid> _and_, the region selection can be added for each train
17:12:46  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, I agree. At least in parts :-)
17:12:56  <planetmaker> This sub-dir mania is something I dislike with 2cc
17:19:35  <DJNekkid> i agree :)
17:19:48  <DJNekkid> but a single file for each train is imho a good solution
17:19:59  <DJNekkid> or atleast family where there are more then one similar train
17:20:02  <DJNekkid> i.e. TGV's
17:21:05  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, a single file is no problem. On the contrary, it my be good (or for a family of trains)
17:21:08  <Rubidium> the question is where the similarity stops
17:21:14  <planetmaker> One big file is bad, too
17:21:32  <planetmaker> And Rubidium got the "jumping point" (literal translation) :-P
17:21:46  <Rubidium> the Shinkansen 100 is vastly different from the Shinkansen 700N, yet if you look at the intermediate steps there isn't such a big difference
17:24:27  <DJNekkid> Rubidium: for the 2cc set i think there is only one family presented
17:24:47  <DJNekkid> but 3 of the TGVs share sprites
17:25:25  <DJNekkid> thalys, duplex and V150
17:27:18  <DJNekkid> shal i make an engine template as well?
17:27:57  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, yes
17:30:31  <DJNekkid> btw, it seems like no matter how big the set is, it takes +- the same time to compile
17:31:08  <planetmaker> see it as a bonus :-P
17:31:51  <planetmaker> 2cctrainset here on 2.6GHz P4: 7.2s
17:32:15  <DJNekkid> 2ghz intel core2 duo
17:32:21  <DJNekkid> t7300
17:32:26  <DJNekkid> 1g ram
17:33:31  <DJNekkid> looks like its about 16 sec
17:33:44  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Bug #497: Apply new non flashing sprites @ (by FaddyPainter)
17:34:05  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, use "time make remake" :-)
17:34:08  <planetmaker> maybe it works
17:34:51  <DJNekkid> it dont
17:35:04  <DJNekkid> it asks for a new system time :)
17:35:09  <planetmaker> :-P
17:35:21  <Ammler> DJNekkid: in msys
17:35:54  <planetmaker> hm... maybe. Maybe that's faster in msys than windows cmd
17:36:15  <DJNekkid> and how do i enter my drive with that?
17:36:25  <Ammler> c/
17:36:42  <FooBar> c: works as well...
17:36:45  <FooBar> i.e.
17:36:46  <FooBar> cd c:
17:36:47  <Ammler>  /c
17:37:58  <FooBar> 24.2 sec on a 2.1 GHz T8100...
17:38:18  <DJNekkid> real: 15.859s   user: 5.979s   sys: 3.814s
17:38:28  <DJNekkid> FooBar: so, im actually fast?
17:38:29  <DJNekkid> :p
17:38:46  <FooBar> mine is including renum failing to create a .renum dir...
17:39:38  <FooBar> with correct renum: 13.6 sec
17:40:48  <FooBar> so as one would expect the 2.1 GHz is a little bit faster after all :)
17:41:37  <FooBar> 2 cores doesn't matter; only one is used anyhow. Hence pm's faster single core is, errr... faster :P
17:41:51  <DJNekkid> hehe, aye :)
17:42:28  <FooBar> Boy am I glad I spent the extra 100 bucks on that T8100...
17:42:38  <planetmaker> FooBar, but it's a 5-year old P4... if you've got a more modern CPU it should be faster despite lower CPU frequency.
17:43:10  <FooBar> 500 MHz is still a big gap...
17:43:16  <planetmaker> hm, true
17:43:31  <planetmaker> T8100 is a core2duo or what kind?
17:43:44  <FooBar> besides, I don't assume you run a virtual linux system under windows, which will eat a bit as well...
17:43:52  <FooBar> yes, core 2 duo indeed
17:43:55  <planetmaker> not quite :-P
17:44:14  <planetmaker> though a desktop, it also acts as 24/7 server
17:44:20  <planetmaker> which runs natively linux
17:44:50  <FooBar> well, there you go :)
17:45:15  <FooBar> The 2 sec difference between DJ and I surprises me a bit though...
17:46:18  <FooBar> Maybe the amount of ram makes a difference as well...
17:46:55  <DJNekkid> i dont think its possible to actually buy a single core intel cpu theese days
17:47:18  <DJNekkid> t7300 vs t8100
17:50:30  <FooBar> my 8000 is better than your 7000, but then your 300 is better than my 100...
17:50:50  <FooBar> you can buy an Atom if you want a single core...
17:51:21  <Ammler> me has 5600
17:51:52  <Ammler> real    0m8.753s
17:52:56  <FooBar> ok...
17:53:15  <Ammler> (1.8GHz)
17:53:17  <FooBar> then I can only conclude that msys is terribly slow...
17:53:28  <planetmaker> well... it's a VM
17:53:44  <FooBar> I know, but nothing fancy of a VM...
17:53:46  <planetmaker> my msys on my windows in a VM is also terribly slow. But I expect that.
17:53:51  <planetmaker> That windows is slow.
17:54:31  <FooBar> I expect MS Virtual PC to be slow, but judging by this I thing running linux from that would be actually faster than msys...
17:54:43  <DJNekkid> i thought that the T-number were better no matter what...
17:54:49  * Ammler starts vbox
17:55:01  <planetmaker> what's a t-number?
17:55:16  <FooBar> T7300 and T8100 and the like
17:55:26  <planetmaker> oh, right
17:55:42  <Ammler> T5600
17:57:31  <FooBar> you on a notebook, Ammler?
17:58:25  <DJNekkid> and P is better then T, and E is better then P or something
17:59:07  <FooBar> E appears to be for desktops, where P and T are for notebooks...
17:59:21  <DJNekkid> might be :)
18:00:09  <DJNekkid> hmm, im wondering...
18:00:34  <FooBar>  T is better than P appears as well...
18:01:00  <Ammler> FooBar: old notebook
18:01:55  <FooBar> well, not that old... I have a notebook with a pentium 4 in it sitting around somewhere. That one works perfectly fine, except for the screen...
18:02:10  <DJNekkid> LOL!
18:02:11  <FooBar> Hence I had to get myself a new one...
18:02:19  <DJNekkid> go to google, then images...
18:02:29  <DJNekkid> then search for my IRL name ... "Thomas Mjelva"
18:02:37  <DJNekkid> and then, look at the first pic that appears:)
18:02:58  <FooBar> that's golden :P
18:04:25  <DJNekkid> but FooBar... are you familiar with thoose "advanced" var2s?
18:04:54  <FooBar> not too much, really...
18:05:10  <DJNekkid> i mean, i would like to just set one capacity, and then the code would calculate the others
18:05:42  <FooBar> you mean to divide one capacity over multiple parts?
18:05:43  <DJNekkid> for example, i set the pax capacity, and then mail would have 75% of the capacity (pax*3/4)
18:05:59  <FooBar> oh, that's something different...
18:06:02  <FooBar> let's see...
18:06:08  <DJNekkid> and valuables would have 60% or similar
18:06:16  <FooBar> no guarantee though... :P
18:07:30  <Ammler> real    0m51.924s <-- lol
18:07:44  <Ammler> now that is something I would call slow
18:09:01  <FooBar> that's not fast indeed...
18:09:20  <planetmaker> he... real    0m4.560s <-- on my 2.0 GHz Mac
18:10:31  <planetmaker> actually... real    0m1.769s
18:10:45  <planetmaker> I was compiling a patched version which generated a string of erros and additional output
18:11:03  <planetmaker> :-)
18:11:17  <planetmaker> seems like I don't have a speed issue :-P
18:14:59  <FooBar> no surprise, you did the makefile...
18:15:37  <planetmaker> well... :-) I never consider my computer fast. It isn't really, if I compare with OpenTTD games
18:16:01  <planetmaker> I have to quit somewhere just above the average player's computer
18:16:43  <FooBar> DJNekkid: I understand a bit of the varactionadvanced...
18:16:56  <planetmaker> I could certainly speed things up by evaluating some things earlier and removing a bit configurability.
18:17:03  <planetmaker> But not sure how much it's worth
18:17:39  <FooBar> dunno either, pm. If it ain't broke...
18:17:57  <planetmaker> it will surely eat time like hell and it may well break
18:18:43  <FooBar> ...then don't fix it :)
18:18:50  <Ammler> OpenGFX signals are serious bad
18:20:54  <DJNekkid> didnt there come new opengfx signals recently?
18:21:02  <DJNekkid> no, that were some others
18:21:14  <FooBar> DJNekkid: you need two varaction two sprites for one calculation. If you want to use them percentages I think you somehow need to use a register to store the actual percentage. As you can't put value*0,75 you need to do value*75/100. That yields 3 varaction2 sprites for that calculation. I'm unsure about how to use registers yet. I'll eventually need them for FIRS some day, but can't really...
18:21:16  <FooBar> bothered to look now if you don't mind...
18:21:41  <DJNekkid> np...
18:21:51  <DJNekkid> the ones who add trains should just calc themselves :)
18:22:12  <FooBar> but if you understand the register bit, I might understand the calculation bit...
18:23:47  <DJNekkid> perhaps in v2.0.1 :p
18:23:53  <FooBar> hehehe :)
18:24:51  <planetmaker> Ammler: what's your opinion actually on a v2 of 2cctrainset.
18:25:04  <planetmaker> In my opinion it will be more of a rewrite than a simple improvement.
18:25:21  <planetmaker> how should that best be done wrt repository/ies?
18:25:42  <Ammler> v2 would need more sprites, IMO :-)
18:25:49  <planetmaker> I think there's pros and cons for both, separate and same repository as v1
18:25:57  <planetmaker> more sprites?
18:26:07  <FooBar> simple improvement should never yield a new major version number...
18:26:09  <Ammler> well, something a player could see
18:26:25  <Ammler> what you have in mind, is 1.1
18:26:31  <planetmaker> well... I was not asking that actually. Rather organisation-wise
18:26:33  <FooBar> a recode might justify a new major version number, but usually lots of new stuff is the indicator...
18:26:38  <Ammler> I thought, that is already discussed :-)
18:26:45  * FooBar shuts up
18:27:04  <planetmaker> why, FooBar ? :-)
18:27:32  <FooBar> because it wasn't what you were asking... ;)
18:27:35  <planetmaker> A new version would then also feature, I guess, such advanced vehicle handling as DutchSet receives
18:27:45  <planetmaker> FooBar: but I don't mind other sound opinions, too :-)
18:27:54  <planetmaker> otherwise, I'd have asked in private :-)
18:28:14  <Ammler> well, if the vehicle IDs change, it is time vor v2, as then you need a new GRFID
18:28:23  <FooBar> well, that advanced vehicle handling would be good for a 2.0
18:28:34  <FooBar> ...or exactly what Ammler just said...
18:28:48  <planetmaker> the vehicle IDs will change. I think they're a mess.
18:28:58  <FooBar> if reason for new grfid, then v2...
18:29:02  <planetmaker> though... if done via ids.pnfo it would help and not mind
18:29:29  <DJNekkid> whats the format of ids.pnfo ?
18:29:41  <DJNekkid> #stuff \b*1000 ?
18:29:42  <Ammler> DJNekkid: check firs
18:29:46  <planetmaker> #define NAME value
18:29:52  <DJNekkid> oki
18:30:32  <DJNekkid> well, any suggestions on vehicle IDs ?
18:30:33  <Ammler> the idea behind is using IDs only in that file, everywhere else just the NAMES
18:30:35  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 248: fixed a few warnings, hope i didnt add any new ones :p @ (by DJNekkid)
18:30:58  <FooBar> works really great with FIRS
18:31:27  <FooBar> I actually don't have to look anything up in previous code :)
18:31:29  <planetmaker> :-) That's good to hear
18:31:50  <FooBar> just make sure the names are consistent and you'll be good
18:32:08  <DJNekkid> btw, did anyone of you check out the 2cc'ed chimaera?
18:32:12  <planetmaker> yep. But that's important then
18:32:58  <planetmaker> you didn't add new. But three remain :-)
18:33:03  <FooBar> ask planetmaker to invent consistent names; he did a good job on FIRS. Albeit that I removed some underscores in places...
18:33:34  <planetmaker> :-) My proposals for 2ccts were too long for DJN's liking :-)
18:33:56  <Ammler> oh, and a clear license would also rock for v2 ;-)
18:34:07  <planetmaker> indeed.
18:34:09  <DJNekkid> Ammler: wanna talk to purno? :)
18:34:19  <Ammler> I have him in my msn
18:34:34  <planetmaker> try :-)
18:34:43  <DJNekkid> hes not online atm
18:34:52  <planetmaker> right.
18:34:55  <Ammler> Ambassdoer Purnissa
18:35:36  <FooBar> right.
18:36:16  <DJNekkid> but, did anyone check out the 2cc chimaera?
18:36:24  <FooBar> CARGO_FRUITSANDVEGETABLES isn't that long, is it?
18:36:25  <planetmaker> in the 2cctrainset?
18:36:29  <Ammler> IMO, maglev trains from BornAcorn would also become nice 2cc trains.
18:36:33  <DJNekkid> as an addon
18:36:35  <planetmaker> FooBar: I don't think :-)
18:36:45  <planetmaker> it needs to be descriptive after all
18:36:57  <FooBar> true
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18:37:00  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: then I probably didn't
18:37:21  <planetmaker> or long time ago that I don't remember.
18:37:21  <DJNekkid> its available from your local fruit and vedgetables shop :)
18:37:32  <planetmaker> haha :-)
18:38:23  <FooBar> STR_CRG_FRUITSANDVEGETABLES_CTYPE is the longest around; see if one of you can translate that...
18:38:40  <FooBar> if you can, then it's a good string...
18:38:57  <FooBar> otherwise I will not change it either.
18:39:10  <planetmaker> string cargo fruits & vegies cargotype / class ?
18:39:25  <planetmaker> hm... ctype is a bit tricky
18:39:32  <Ammler> indeed
18:39:46  <planetmaker> but fine, if used consistant within a set.
18:39:58  <Ammler> how is the other type?
18:40:13  <planetmaker> probably ITYPE?
18:40:17  <planetmaker> industry vs. cargo?
18:40:21  <planetmaker> hm...
18:40:35  <FooBar> cytpe indeed is cargo type
18:40:46  <FooBar> rest is correct, so planetmaker you get the cookie :)
18:40:51  <planetmaker> crg is cargo. So it should fit :-)
18:40:57  <planetmaker> yay! Cookies!
18:41:03  <FooBar> the other is 1TYPE
18:41:30  <planetmaker> I would have chosen CRGTYPE and INDTYPE
18:41:44  <DJNekkid> thoose action0's they use in WAS are imho way over the top :)
18:41:47  <FooBar> planetmaker: come and get them... I'm not drunk enough to put 'em on the mail. Actually I'm not drunk at all...
18:41:58  <planetmaker> :-)
18:42:23  <FooBar> actually 1TYPE stands for "one unit of the cargo type", not industry type or something :P
18:43:02  <planetmaker> I typed I not 1 or l :-P
18:43:07  <planetmaker> and it was just a guess.
18:43:09  <FooBar> and then there's _1UNIT, _MUNIT and _TABBR...
18:43:14  <FooBar> I typed 1 :P
18:43:34  <FooBar> Maybe I should document that a bit...
18:43:54  <planetmaker> Maybe.... // is accepted there :-)
18:44:04  <planetmaker> but 1UNIT MUNIT is fine IMO
18:44:20  <planetmaker> 1TYPE maybe is not quite clear w/o context
18:45:30  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: bananas is down atm. So no testing...
18:46:24  <DJNekkid> oh...
18:46:31  <DJNekkid> shal i upload ?
18:47:28  <planetmaker> actually... don't worry. I have it :-P
18:48:04  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - chim.grf @ (by DJNekkid)
18:49:19  <Ammler> planetmaker: you should know that alternative:
18:49:21  <Ammler>
18:50:25  <planetmaker> indeed, I didn't, Ammler. Thanks for pointing it out
18:50:44  <DJNekkid> planetmaker or Ammler: is it possible to define something from a know definition?
18:50:57  <planetmaker> hu, DJNekkid ?
18:51:04  <Ammler> DJNekkid: example?
18:51:14  <DJNekkid> #define SELF Id_TGV
18:51:38  <planetmaker> if you defined Id_TGV before, I *think* it is possible
18:51:44  <planetmaker> but it's untested by me
18:51:59  <planetmaker> but why would you do that?
18:52:08  <DJNekkid> pretty code :)
18:52:18  <planetmaker> no. not good.
18:52:29  <planetmaker> ugly code actually and bad practise
18:52:43  <planetmaker> you do not simplify only to save a few characters
18:52:49  <planetmaker> s/simplify/rename
18:53:02  <planetmaker> then the whole concept becomes void
18:53:26  <planetmaker> as you then obscure what the concept shall make clear
18:53:57  <planetmaker> I really don't see why you need it short. Make it multi-line actions. One property per line or so.
18:54:09  <planetmaker> Then it stays nicely readable, no matter how verbose a string is
18:54:51  <planetmaker> A good example on how to do things is... FIRS :-)
18:54:55  <DJNekkid>
18:55:44  <DJNekkid> with this, you only need to set the ID in the ID-file, and ONCE in the <train>.pnfo
18:55:50  <planetmaker> <-- is it?
18:56:16  <planetmaker> So: I completely disagree. I'm afraid
18:56:26  <planetmaker> It's just a matter how you format the code
18:56:57  <DJNekkid> sure is
18:57:20  <planetmaker> and with the example I posted. There's absolutely no difference in prettyness. But in readability
18:57:49  <DJNekkid> but when one is ID_ICE, the other is ID_BM73, another one is ID_THALYS
18:57:59  <planetmaker> so?
18:58:13  <DJNekkid> then i need to change the number of spaces before the //
18:58:34  <DJNekkid> and as i saied, one only need to change it on the top
18:58:34  <planetmaker> actually, they'd be ID_ENG_ICE3, ID_ENG_BM73, ID_ENG_THALYS
18:58:43  <DJNekkid> why eng?
18:58:49  <planetmaker> what do you care about the number of spaces?
18:58:55  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: they're engines?
18:59:06  <planetmaker> and there's ID_WAG_HOPPER
18:59:08  <DJNekkid> opposed to?
18:59:12  <planetmaker> ID_CRG_COAL
18:59:14  <planetmaker> etc pp
18:59:24  <Ammler> it should be verbose, that it isn't a BYTE
18:59:25  <DJNekkid> i dont have any cargo in this set
18:59:35  <Ammler> so just 2 chars for a NAME is bad
18:59:38  <planetmaker> in 2cc trainset?
18:59:46  <planetmaker> trains transport cargo...
18:59:57  <planetmaker> and can be refitted to it...
19:00:04  <DJNekkid> oki, where would i use ID_CRG_COAL ?
19:00:13  <planetmaker> probably STR_CRG_COAL
19:00:32  <planetmaker> as IDs need adding up and that's over the top to do by defines
19:00:44  <planetmaker> though it would be nice. But atm I cannot be arsed to implment that
19:00:50  <Ammler> hmm, but I see the issue of DJN
19:00:57  <Ammler> using Templates
19:00:59  <planetmaker> which is?
19:00:59  <DJNekkid> ty Ammler
19:01:12  <DJNekkid> when i use a template, i only need to define it once
19:01:17  <planetmaker> Ammler: the template needs to be adjusted anyway, doesn't it?
19:01:33  <Ammler> those things you like to adjust should be names
19:01:47  <Ammler> hmm
19:01:56  <Ammler> so you can use always the same template
19:02:14  <planetmaker> what's part of these templates?
19:02:20  <planetmaker> and what's different between engines?
19:02:22  <Ammler> the nfo code
19:03:07  <Ammler> FooBar: how do you code similar industries?
19:03:25  <FooBar> copy similar, paste, change a few odds and ends, save
19:03:42  <planetmaker> Well, using the #define doesn't impair templates as they're used now. Either they're the same number - then it's the same ID
19:03:43  <Ammler> he, might work too :-)
19:03:53  <planetmaker> Or they're not, then it's a different ... and a modified template
19:04:23  <Ammler> planetmaker: the idea of a template is, if you change something, it is changed on all engines using that tmeplate
19:04:25  <Ammler> like on wiki
19:04:26  <planetmaker> different engines cannot have 100% same code also w/o #defines. They have different ids etc.
19:04:48  <planetmaker> Ammler: well, but that's nothing which works now. So that's out of scope IMO
19:05:02  <Ammler> dunno, is it?
19:05:07  <planetmaker> That's a feature request.
19:05:25  <planetmaker> If it works. Fine. Show me. And show me why not the things which stay constant can be replaced by defines
19:05:37  <planetmaker> That's the thing in question.
19:05:41  <planetmaker> Not using templates or not
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19:06:51  <Ammler> well, indeed, you could also "#define" such things
19:07:01  <Ammler> like CAP multiplayer
19:08:43  <FooBar> I'm gonna hit the shower, so if you need me, I'm not here...
19:13:28  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 505: Upsdat @ (by Beardie27)
19:20:22  <DJNekkid> planetmaker: look at the temp-mu.pnfo
19:20:59  <DJNekkid> and ids.pnfo
19:22:28  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 249: precompiler prepared the temp-mu.pnfo @ (by DJNekkid)
19:28:41  <planetmaker> I'm not sure it has no problems with the backslashes.
19:28:44  <planetmaker> did you try?
19:28:55  <planetmaker> and, honestly, those names... don't tell me much
19:29:12  <planetmaker> what's COM, what's IC?
19:29:32  <planetmaker> and they miss the ID_TYPE_ prefix
19:29:40  <planetmaker> which tell what kind of define they are
19:30:16  <planetmaker> that's the kind of variable naming I'd have chosen 6 years ago :-P
19:31:34  <planetmaker> hm... are the defines used anywhere?
19:33:48  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: ^
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19:37:36  <planetmaker> honestly... much too unreadable to be worth the change (I just discovered the re-write of defines in the top of temp_eng.nfo - which in itself should be named template_eng.pnfo
19:37:41  <planetmaker> as it's not temporary :-)
19:37:56  <andythenorth> evening
19:39:04  <andythenorth> anyone been FISHing?
19:39:50  <Rubidium> that's a negative
19:40:01  <planetmaker> and, DJNekkid the devzone is a good place to discuss those changes before commiting them actually. It allows posting divs and files :-)
19:40:21  <planetmaker> we have issue #81:
19:40:26  <Rubidium> divs :)
19:40:31  <planetmaker> :-P
19:40:32  <Rubidium> too much HTML for you
19:40:49  <planetmaker> actually it's months ago I wrote HMTL, if not years...
19:40:57  <planetmaker> dunno where that type came from
19:41:02  <planetmaker> *typo
19:41:04  <planetmaker> arg!
19:54:34  <planetmaker> hm... no reply anymore, DJNekkid ?
19:55:32  <planetmaker> Well, then I guess I'm off for tonight. Have a good night all
20:02:09  <Frankr> cya
20:12:40  <Ammler> gute Nacht Deutschland.
20:13:24  <Frankr> FooBar: You do the FIRS don't you
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20:26:12  <FooBar> Frankr: yes I do, amongst others...
20:26:48  <Frankr> lol, someone was asking if the set would have an aircraft factory
20:26:55  <Frankr> tha's all
20:27:14  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 506: Add all A330-300 Pngs and Pcxs @ (by Beardie27)
20:29:47  <FooBar> no, it won't I'm afraid. There's no such cargo as 'aircraft' in FIRS, so it would be just like any other factory with a different name.
20:30:23  <FooBar> We do have space for add-ons, so one could make an aircraft factory for FIRS...
20:31:37  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Bug #446 (Closed): Fix all Errors reported by the compile @ (by Beardie27)
20:31:37  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Bug #490 (Closed): Fix Your 747-200 png's @ (by Beardie27)
20:31:37  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Feature #439 (Closed): Sort A330-300 Greyscale @ (by Beardie27)
20:31:40  <andythenorth> Frankr: if you wanted to stretch the point, the 'Vehicle Plant' could be producing aircraft.  They would appear as the cargo Goods.  I have no plans to draw any aircraft though :)
20:32:34  <Frankr> :), didn't think so
20:32:48  <Frankr> i was just checkin tho
20:32:51  <andythenorth> Also, 'Parts' is a transportable cargo.  These could be aircraft parts being transported by rail (as Boeing do in the US) or by barge or Belugas (as airbus do in the the UK ).  Again I have no plans for this ;)
20:33:21  <Frankr> no problem
20:34:42  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Feature #288 (Assigned): Re-design Tu 144 @ (by Beardie27)
20:34:42  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Feature #171 (Assigned): Fix Eoin's Flyglobespan 737-800 @ (by Beardie27)
20:35:00  <Rubidium> andythenorth: you're forgetting the trucks they use for the last part
20:36:06  <andythenorth> well I'm drawing some heavy trucks.  so not forgotten.
20:39:04  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Bug #497 (Assigned): Apply new non flashing sprites @ (by Beardie27)
20:42:20  <FooBar> anyhow, I'm off. Have to get up early tomorrow... How early? Early...
20:42:23  <FooBar> good night all!
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20:47:54  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Feature #336 (Closed): Boeing 747-200 nfo @ (by Beardie27)
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21:38:30  <Frankr> DJNekkid: Are you there?
21:38:33  *** openttdcoop sets mode: +v Beardie
21:38:44  <Beardie> I was about to ask the same thing, DJNekkid?
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22:00:40  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 507: 727-200 for DJ to look at the Loading @ (by Frank)
22:04:02  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
22:07:39  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 508: Found Small error on 747-200 NW, updated png and pcx @ (by Beardie27)
22:10:51  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 509: that should be correct i think @ (by DJNekkid)
22:10:51  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 510: merge @ (by DJNekkid)
22:16:56  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
22:31:10  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 511: Changed files so the 727-200 is properly coded @ (by Frank)
22:38:46  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Revision 512: Uncoded 727-200 due to the number of pure white errors (Incor... @ (by Frank)
23:14:38  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: World Airliners Set - Bug #498: Fix any of your Planes which don't match the new Greyscales @ (by Frank)
23:15:49  <Frankr> cya guys
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