Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 7th October 2009:
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01:34:11  <Brot6> I once decorated my apartment entirely in ten foot salad forks!!
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11:08:57  <planetmaker> [12:58]	<DJNekkid>	[00:34:29] getting a macro-compiler-thingy written...
11:08:58  <planetmaker> [12:58]	<DJNekkid>	[00:34:59] where we add inn all the variables, preferably in a similar format, and its calculated and done all its cool stuff with :) <-- that's actually what IMO would yield 'better' history, as it allows plain text and avoids copy&paste.
11:09:08  <planetmaker> but it would also mean a lot of work. Also and especially for me.
11:09:16  <planetmaker> And I have currently... little time
11:14:05  <Ammler> planetmaker: djn isn't here :-P
11:15:30  <planetmaker> I know
11:15:48  <planetmaker> I just needed to spill it somewhere so it won't get forgotten. Now you know ;-)
11:16:25  <Ammler> well, my question is, does it need a immediate release or can we take another half year.
11:16:39  <Ammler> it looks like djn likes to release v2 before 2010
11:16:41  <planetmaker> I wouldn't mind the latter
11:16:48  <planetmaker> (half a year time)
11:16:53  <planetmaker> It would do good to the project IMO
11:16:59  <planetmaker> Than just another rush
11:17:23  <planetmaker> And building it top-down than vice versa
11:17:24  <Ammler> but my contribution is very minor, so this up2you2
11:17:39  <planetmaker> :-) Well. Mainly DJN
11:17:47  <planetmaker> He's the person basically doing the set
11:18:46  <Ammler> if we have something which works, I am happy to help to code some vehicels, using the template without special code shouldn't be a problem.
11:19:08  <planetmaker> yep. The template idea is great.
11:19:14  <Ammler> but I am unhappy with current solution
11:19:21  <planetmaker> But it needs IMO a refined makefile
11:19:30  <planetmaker> Which better adopts to that system
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13:18:32  <DJNekkid> better_ >(
13:18:34  <DJNekkid> ? :=)
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15:29:47  <DJNekkid> have anyone ever made a bootable USB-stick before?
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15:56:46  <Ammler> DJNekkid: with linux it should be easy
15:57:22  <Ammler> btw. checkout pm and some comments to the 2cc development
16:07:05  <DJNekkid> read :P
16:12:42  <DJNekkid> the problem is, im currently involved in alot of projects atm, and i would like to finish one ... and i think the 2cc set is getting somewhat close to something now ...
16:13:50  <DJNekkid> and with the nice templates and the excel sheet codeing an engine or a MU is pretty much a walk in the park ... move some sprites, CTRL-H, and voila
16:18:02  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: update from r293 to r302, starting nightly compile
16:18:33  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: compile done (13 errors) -
16:18:33  <Brot6> bros: update from r9 to r10, starting nightly compile
16:18:46  <Brot6> bros: compile done (3 errors) -
16:18:47  <Brot6> firs: nightly compile not needed. (r217)
16:18:47  <Brot6> fish: update from r135 to r141, starting nightly compile
16:19:15  <Brot6> fish: compile done (1 errors) -
16:19:16  <Brot6> heqs: nightly compile not needed. (r169)
16:19:16  <Brot6> nmts: nightly compile not needed. (r15)
16:19:17  <Brot6> opengfx: nightly compile not needed. (r205)
16:19:17  <Brot6> opensfx: nightly compile not needed. (r41)
16:19:17  <Brot6> worldairlineset: update from r583 to r584, starting nightly compile
16:20:31  <Brot6> worldairlineset: compile done (0 errors) -
16:23:49  <Ammler> DJNekkid: ctrl-h?
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16:24:21  <DJNekkid> "search and replace" in most editors i've used :)
16:26:29  <Ammler> I really don't see, why you need to search and replace, if you could use preprocessor stuff....
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16:26:55  <DJNekkid> look in a template file :)
16:27:04  <DJNekkid> MU_nnn_SPEED
16:27:07  <DJNekkid> for example
16:27:19  <DJNekkid> all nnn's are replaced by, for example, BM73
16:27:31  <DJNekkid> a total of 39 in MU's, or 21 in engines
16:27:50  <Ammler> and why not something like #define train BM73 in top of the file
16:28:19  <DJNekkid> also an approach :)
16:28:27  <Ammler> but?
16:28:52  <DJNekkid> i dunno ...
16:28:58  <DJNekkid> i guess it didnt come to me
16:29:15  <Ammler> :-)
16:29:48  <DJNekkid> but thats also an option...
16:30:12  <Ammler> the problem is that pm has no time now
16:30:19  <DJNekkid> i know...
16:30:24  <Ammler> so you would need to make everything alone
16:30:27  <DJNekkid> and i just came from "no time" :)
16:30:43  <Ammler> I could at max help with "walking in the park"
16:31:00  <DJNekkid> and i will most likely have an abundance of time the next weeks
16:38:07  <Ammler> imo, we should more work with #define and #include
16:38:31  <Ammler> first you #define the real sprtie file
16:38:46  <Ammler> then you #include the real sprites template
16:39:00  <Ammler> and you don't change something in that file
16:41:13  <DJNekkid> something like this:
16:41:14  <DJNekkid>
16:41:15  <DJNekkid> ?
16:41:52  <Ammler> yes, does that work?
16:42:16  <DJNekkid> i bet we could even do the #undef at the end of the files :)
16:42:27  <DJNekkid> anyway ...
16:42:34  <Ammler> yep :-)
16:42:50  <DJNekkid> i BET it would, but i dont think we should use it on MU's, as there are too many that needs "special treatment"
16:43:16  <DJNekkid> atleast the EMU's
16:43:17  <Ammler> well, I didn't suggest to use it for the whole template
16:43:27  <Ammler> but i.e. for the real sprites
16:43:37  <DJNekkid> thats already done ...
16:43:49  <DJNekkid> #define THIS_PCX_FILE	sprites/pcx/engines/tep150.pcx  // Graphics file
16:44:49  <DJNekkid> but; i like that idea VERY much!
16:45:33  <DJNekkid> let me test and see if it works
16:46:22  <Ammler> I also wondering, if it might be possible to convert png to pcx
16:46:27  <Ammler> from makefile
16:46:58  <DJNekkid> isnt the makesystem slow enough already if it dont have to conver them every time as well?
16:47:19  <Ammler> that wouldn't slow down
16:47:53  <Ammler> the slow part is the dependency check, which is always same long, also if you don't have to do something
16:48:42  <DJNekkid> but either way, that means i have to convert all my PCX's to PNG's
16:49:20  <Ammler> that could be done by script
16:49:36  <Ammler> like the convert from png to pcx
16:50:15  <Ammler> i.e., it is very ugly in was, they have both in the source
16:50:33  <Ammler> and if they change something, they have to do it in both,
16:50:43  <Ammler> which could cause faults
16:51:11  <DJNekkid> well, luckily dont we have that problem here
16:52:47  <Ammler> well, I kinda would like to use png instead of pcx :-)
16:52:54  <Ammler> also in opengfx
16:53:22  <Ammler> would make it easier for re-/preview
16:53:37  <DJNekkid> true
16:53:51  <Ammler> some drawers aren't even able to make pcxes nowadays anymore.
16:55:01  <DJNekkid> that i know little about am i afraid
16:55:29  <Ammler> and if you don't need to edit the graphics, you can't be responsible for glitches, like pure white or action colors or such.
16:56:00  <DJNekkid> hehe ...
16:56:17  <DJNekkid> all i do with "my" graphics is moveing them into their nice blue boxes :)
16:56:29  <Ammler> :-)
16:56:47  <Ammler> but who does fix pure white?
16:57:07  <DJNekkid> i usually do now ... :)
16:57:12  <DJNekkid> i just heavent with the chimaera yet
16:58:19  <Ammler> 2cctrainset.grf:371: Warning: 22 of 440 pixels (5%) are pure white <-- looks more like missaligned :-)
17:00:17  <DJNekkid> rofl, no actually it is a white stripe thru the sprite! lol
17:01:15  <Ammler> hehe
17:02:08  <Ammler> and something you should start, you should first fix the existing errors, before introducing new features.
17:03:23  <DJNekkid> i, at times, dont notice all errors, but i usually, or atleast, try to fix errors before i add more...
17:03:50  <Ammler> don't you get the same output, if you run make local?
17:04:19  <DJNekkid> usually ... but not in the case of last week
17:04:30  <DJNekkid> as i didnt get ALOT of the errors you guys got...
17:04:38  <DJNekkid> the scewed PCX'es for example
17:05:16  <Ammler> I can't be bothered to run my windows currently
17:05:28  <Ammler> else I would test that :-)
17:05:59  <Ammler> did you disable the converter?
17:06:04  <DJNekkid> yes
17:08:27  <Ammler> <-- also check the nfo, it seems like preprocessing didn't work serverside
17:08:49  <DJNekkid> i know there are some stuff currently, thats what im fidling with :)
17:09:41  <Ammler> I am not really helpful just complaining about everything :-P
17:09:52  <DJNekkid> thats what you do best! :p
17:10:19  <Ammler> I need to be worth the credits I have in that set ;-)
17:10:32  <DJNekkid> hehe
17:11:01  <Ammler> but seriously, if we have a fine solution, I am ready to make some of the easy work....
17:11:40  <Ammler> like opengfx, a bit gimp and copy&paste
17:13:02  <DJNekkid> hehe! :)
17:14:39  <DJNekkid> admit it! you would rather play with 2cc2 then make it! :p
17:23:31  <DJNekkid> can i add stuff to makefile local ?
17:23:40  <DJNekkid> like the TR-thingy for example?
17:25:26  <DJNekkid> (tr -s , \n <file >anotherfile)
17:26:52  <DJNekkid> hmm
17:26:57  <DJNekkid> how do i remove that error ...
17:27:16  <DJNekkid> "found psuedosprite while looking for sprite 1." ?
17:27:16  <planetmaker> [18:38]	<Ammler>	imo, we should more work with #define and #include <-- you'll need to #undef everything then after the template again. But that makes sense
17:27:43  <planetmaker> e.g. #define ENG_WEIGHT 52
17:28:05  <planetmaker> -1 * 00 ... PROP_WEIGHT ENG_WEIGHT ...
17:28:07  <planetmaker> ...
17:28:10  <DJNekkid> oh crap :)
17:28:14  <planetmaker> #undef ENG_WEIGHT
17:30:00  <DJNekkid> but planetmaker ... no we dont
17:30:13  <DJNekkid> as its all ENG_nnn_WEIGHT
17:30:30  <DJNekkid> all we need to do is #define nnn <ENGINE-NAME>
17:32:04  <Ammler> because the ENG_nnn_WEIGHT is defined from excel
17:32:53  <DJNekkid> well, ENG_<ENGINE-NAME>_WEIGHT is defined from excel
17:33:05  <Ammler> not sure, if that would work
17:33:42  <Ammler> maybe something like #define ENG_WEIGHT ENG_nnn_WEIGHT
17:33:42  <DJNekkid> it dont, it seems
17:35:00  <Ammler> he, so you could make single files from the table
17:35:24  <Ammler> then #include data_nnn
17:35:29  <DJNekkid> single files?
17:35:40  <Ammler> a data file per engine
17:35:43  <DJNekkid> what if i want to bulk change, lets say, double the cost of all engines? :P
17:36:21  <DJNekkid> and, all in all, whats the difference between a single property file per engine, or a .pnfo per engine?
17:37:05  <Ammler> the content of the file: #define ENG_WEIGHT 45
17:37:15  <Ammler> and not ENG_nnn_WEIGHT
17:37:37  <planetmaker> if you want global definitions, the define-names, of course, must be globally unique, yes
17:38:04  <DJNekkid> but as i saied, ...
17:38:09  <DJNekkid> all in all, whats the difference between a single property file per engine, or a .pnfo per engine?
17:38:22  <planetmaker> but... an engine has only one weight, hasn't it? And one could define for all properties an engine specific value as well as a global multiplicative factor
17:38:59  <DJNekkid> OTTD does have that built in...
17:39:00  <Ammler> that's base cost
17:39:10  <planetmaker> :-D
17:39:17  <planetmaker> fair enough
17:40:11  <DJNekkid> i may be a bit dumb at times, but at times you guys seem to think too much programming...
17:40:31  <Ammler> I think, rather you do
17:41:17  <DJNekkid> i mean, how hard is it to CTRL-H (in my editor atleast) and bulk replace nnn's by SR1 or whatever :)
17:42:43  <DJNekkid> and one .pnfo per engines does, imho, make it more ...
17:42:51  <DJNekkid> "oversiktlig" ...
17:42:57  <DJNekkid> whatever that is in english
17:43:16  <DJNekkid> less messy
17:43:33  <Ammler> DJNekkid: why do we need preprocessing at all then?
17:44:43  <DJNekkid> CTRL-H, change "nnn" to "<train-name>" for example?
17:45:04  <Ammler> that is no preprocessing
17:45:20  <Ammler> well, it might be, but not from gcc ;-)
17:45:30  <DJNekkid> its made my life alot easier atleast :)
17:46:18  <Ammler> well, I think, the whole discussion is useless as long as the "excel" issue exists, anyway.
17:47:14  <Ammler> planetmaker: what do you think about using png as source files and converting them to pcx?
18:04:02  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
18:31:31  <planetmaker> Ammler: you mean programatically by means of the makefile?
18:31:54  <planetmaker> in principle certainly a nice idea. But is there a cross-platform safe conversion method? Like convert?
18:33:55  <Ammler> you mean, if there is something in mingw/msys?
18:34:22  <Ammler> well, that is why it would be nice to have grfcodec supporting png :-)
18:37:44  <planetmaker> Also my machine would need it by default ;-)
18:37:59  <planetmaker> well. I do have convert
18:38:18  <planetmaker> and yes, grfcodec with png would be nice.
18:39:06  <Ammler> well, mainly it needs to be checked what mingw/msys does have per default
18:39:43  <planetmaker> Well. Why not have a 'make pre-view' which converts the source pcx into png?
18:40:56  <Ammler> well, that could be done by grf2html
18:41:23  <Ammler> but what I had in mind was using the png as source
18:46:30  <planetmaker> Well, yes. The advantage would be easier visibility when browsing the dirs. But is it really worth the effort?
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18:55:49  <Ammler> planetmaker: only if it no effort :-)
18:55:55  <Ammler> is*
18:56:13  <planetmaker> well. Not sure whether it makes it easier for artists. Not sure
18:56:24  <planetmaker> I don't mind, if it is done programmatically
18:56:39  <planetmaker> But... it's a source for errors :-)
18:57:45  <Ammler> well, now we need to convert png to pcx
18:58:07  <planetmaker> Now?
18:58:21  <Ammler> and as coder, it would be nice, if you don't have to touch the graphcis, imo
18:58:23  <DJNekkid> remember, they need to be 8bbp with the proper palette :)
18:58:41  <Ammler> yes, that should be work for the drawer
18:58:48  <planetmaker> Well. *should*
18:58:57  <Ammler> as you knows best, when to use company colors, action colors etc.
18:59:21  <planetmaker> nice :-)
18:59:45  <Ammler> if we would support png, there is no need to convert those anymore :-)
19:00:04  <DJNekkid> btw, drawers have no clue!
19:00:26  <DJNekkid> a sprite dont work until the opposite is proven :)
19:01:29  <Ammler> yes, but that would be work from grfcodec :-P
19:02:24  <Ammler> now, you take the png, edit/fix something convert it to pcx and take over responsibility
19:04:00  <DJNekkid> not entierly, i try to be a little nazi
19:15:28  <planetmaker> grf nazi?
19:15:59  <DJNekkid> well, if im gonna code stuff, use my templates for easy implementation...
19:16:29  <DJNekkid> and, if they are used wrong, i show how to use, and then x my fingers that the person will follow it
19:16:33  <DJNekkid> ref: lawton27 :)
19:24:20  <planetmaker> haha :-)
19:26:43  <DJNekkid> btw planetmaker: have my commits been better lately? :)
19:29:59  <planetmaker> yes, todays commits look (just from the view of the messages) much more descriptive and it gets much clearer what has been done
19:30:10  <DJNekkid> 3 more inc :)
19:30:39  <planetmaker> It's not quite OpenTTD commit message style yet, though ;-)
19:30:54  <DJNekkid> gonna take a few years :)
19:31:07  <planetmaker> :-)
19:31:52  <planetmaker> it's not that much different
19:31:57  <planetmaker> Add: VT200
19:32:11  <planetmaker> Change: modify some properties in the default action0
19:32:46  <planetmaker> Fix: white pixels in chimaera and pseudosprite 1 errors
19:32:58  <planetmaker> Fix: graphics of SR1
19:33:14  <planetmaker> Fix: some minor alignment of dual-headed MUs
19:33:16  <planetmaker> :-)
19:33:20  <Rubidium> white pixel and pseudo sprite errors ought to be separate commits
19:33:30  <planetmaker> :-)
19:42:21  <DJNekkid> no dutch guys around?
19:42:22  <DJNekkid> tneo ?
19:42:32  <DJNekkid> or not duch actually ... belgian!
19:42:36  <DJNekkid> *dutch
19:44:14  <Ammler> DJNekkid: nickman is belgian
19:45:07  <DJNekkid> i think i might have found what i were looking for anyway :)
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19:45:36  <DJNekkid> were looking for stats on the NMBS 7800
19:45:48  <DJNekkid> but after some research were it an Vossloh G1205
19:45:52  <DJNekkid> and that had a wikipage
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19:59:20  <DJNekkid> like that planetmaker ? :)
19:59:29  <DJNekkid> btw Ammler; brot is kinda mute today
19:59:55  <Ammler> no rss feeds?
20:01:16  <Ammler> hmm, indeed
20:01:50  <Ammler> !rss show devzone
20:01:50  <Brot6> Ammler: lemme fetch it...
20:01:50  <Brot6> Ammler: using old data
20:01:50  <Brot6> Ammler: Channel : #openttdcoop Development Zone: Activity
20:01:50  <Brot6> 2009/10/07 01:36 :: British Rail OpenTTD Set - Revision 10: More Adjustments @ (by Frank)
20:01:51  <Brot6> 2009/10/07 00:28 :: 2cc train set - Revision 295: see the changes in action0.pnfo @ (by DJNekkid)
20:01:53  <Brot6> 2009/10/06 23:16 :: 2cc train set - Revision 294: added a working enigne template, and the '422' @ (by DJNekkid)
20:01:57  <Brot6> 2009/10/06 22:02 :: FISH - Revision 141: Add: pcx file for Medium Utility Vessel (fishboat) @ (by andythenorth)
20:02:01  <Brot6> 2009/10/06 21:57 :: World Airliners Set - Revision 584: removed pax from skylift, and added everything else (18 \wxFF... @ (by DJNekkid)
20:03:04  <Ammler> !rss who watches devzone
20:03:04  <Brot6> Ammler: DevZone: (in format: default): watched by #openttdcoop.devzone
20:04:01  <Ammler> don't see why
20:05:52  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: yup, just like that :-)
20:06:20  <planetmaker> Start with a capital letter for the words like in r309
20:06:58  <DJNekkid> Fix: Stuff ? :)
20:08:25  <Ammler> Rubidium: did was already ask for a feature request to preview liveries in the refit window?
20:08:34  <Ammler> :-)
20:09:47  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: yes
20:10:20  <planetmaker> and "Change: stuff modified" and "Add: cool features"
20:10:51  <DJNekkid> aye
20:10:54  <DJNekkid> even:
20:11:06  <DJNekkid> "Change: Stuff modded" and "Add: Cool stuff" :)
20:11:16  <DJNekkid> (note the S'and'the'C) :p
20:11:51  <planetmaker> I guess so, yes
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20:12:02  <planetmaker> makes more sense than small case after a colon
20:13:04  <DJNekkid> okidoki
20:13:29  <DJNekkid> as you wish boss :D
20:13:35  <planetmaker> :-P
20:13:44  <planetmaker> I only copied the style
20:14:04  <planetmaker> It really helps :-) - it gives you the broad idea even if you don't understand the details
20:15:15  <Ammler> and it would make possible to make the changelog with it
20:15:18  <Ammler> at least easier
20:15:25  <Rubidium> Ammler: no, don't care and don't see a reason to actually do it for refits only
20:15:50  <Ammler> why refits only?
20:16:03  <Ammler> in the buy menu you have it already, where else
20:16:11  <Rubidium> really?
20:16:34  <Rubidium> hmm, you're right
20:16:44  <Rubidium> never mind then
20:16:47  <Ammler> well, I don't care either, just played a bit with was
20:16:52  <Rubidium> shows how often I play the game
20:17:18  <Ammler> I guess, specially with newgrfs :-P
20:27:20  <DJNekkid> and Rubidium: i'm still convinced that pink is overrepresentated when i start new games!
20:33:44  <DJNekkid> hmm
20:34:03  <DJNekkid> Ammler: isnt brot suppose to update every 2 mins or something?
20:34:24  <Ammler> yeah, I know, looks broken, do I need to care about?
20:34:36  <DJNekkid> not on my behalf...
20:34:39  <Ammler> :-)
20:34:50  <DJNekkid> i just thought you fixed it back there :)
20:35:39  <Ammler> !rehash
20:36:08  * planetmaker waves good night
20:36:37  <andythenorth> by by
20:36:39  <andythenorth> e e
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20:38:18  <DJNekkid> gnight
20:38:46  <Ammler> maybe this helps :-)
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20:39:16  <DJNekkid> hmm ... enough train for today!
20:41:23  <Ammler> !rss unwatch devzone
20:41:24  <Brot6> Ammler: #openttdcoop.devzone has been removed from the watchlist for DevZone
20:41:31  <Ammler> !rss watch devzone
20:41:31  <Brot6> okies, Ammler
20:41:52  <Ammler> well, let me sleep over :-)
20:42:16  <Ammler> we should switch to push anyway :-)
20:43:48  <DJNekkid> switch to push? a new guy?
20:46:22  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 311: Forgot: the NS-files :P @ (by DJNekkid)
20:48:00  <Ammler> DJNekkid: no, to annouce commits immediately
20:48:12  <DJNekkid> oki...
20:48:27  <Ammler> for commits, I could do that with hooks
20:48:41  <Ammler> but there are also hooks for redmine itslef
20:49:56  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FISH - Revision 143: Change: a few more angles on Vehicle Ferry Large (spot the deliberate mistakes) @ (by andythenorth)
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