Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 14th October 2009:
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01:33:53  <Brot6> Backup done! (Usage: 102M)
01:33:54  <Brot6> Mr and Mrs PED, can I borrow 26.7% of the RAYON TEXTILE production of the INDONESIAN archipelago?
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11:08:09  <Brot6> feed DevZone had 15 updates, showing the latest 10
11:08:09  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FISH - Revision 157: Change: fixing my mistakes to keep renum quiet @ (by andythenorth)
11:08:10  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FISH - Revision 158: Change: progress on Log Raft Large @ (by andythenorth)
11:08:10  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FISH - Revision 159: Change: progress on Log Raft Large @ (by andythenorth)
11:08:10  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop - Wiki edit: Manager (#4) @ (by Ammler)
11:08:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 320: Add: A bunch of engines; 1044, 2100, 26000, 2700, AE6-6, Alco boxca... @ (by DJNekkid)
11:08:19  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: WebOTTD - Revision 0: Create working directory @ (by Seberoth)
11:08:22  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: WebOTTD - Revision 1: Backup.push @ (by Seberoth)
11:08:25  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: WebOTTD - Revision 2: -Some fixes @ (by Seberoth)
11:08:28  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 321: added NER EF1 properly @ (by DJNekkid)
11:08:31  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 322: Add: metrovik EM2 @ (by DJNekkid)
11:08:32  <Ammler> sorry :-)
11:09:04  <Ammler> I tested trunk HEAD and forgot to switch back to the productive DB...
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12:01:08  <Brot6> feed DevZone had 15 updates, showing the latest 10
12:01:08  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 239: Change: varaction 2 chain for Plastics Plant @ (by andythenorth)
12:01:09  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 240: Change: varaction 2 chain for Recycling Plant @ (by andythenorth)
12:01:09  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 241: Change: varaction 2 chain for Sandpit @ (by andythenorth)
12:01:12  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 242: Change: varaction 2 chain for Sawmill @ (by andythenorth)
12:01:16  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 243: Change: varaction 2 chains for Sheep Farm and Steel... @ (by andythenorth)
12:01:22  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 244: Change: varaction 2 chain for Survey Depot @ (by andythenorth)
12:01:26  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 245: Change: varaction 2 chain for Textil Mill @ (by andythenorth)
12:01:30  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 246: Change: varaction 2 chain for Thermal Plant @ (by andythenorth)
12:01:34  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 247: Change: varaction 2 chain for Waste Point, Water Plant @ (by andythenorth)
12:01:38  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 248: Change: varaction 2 chain for Water Tower @ (by andythenorth)
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12:22:58  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: WebOTTD - Revision 3: Some layout improvement @ (by Seberoth)
12:42:23  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop NewGRF package - Bug #543 (Rejected): Remove ISR @ (by Ammler)
12:42:24  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop NewGRF package - Bug #542 (Confirmed): Remove OpenGFX newgrfs @ (by Ammler)
12:42:24  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop NewGRF package - Bug #547 (Confirmed): Remove Pikka's NewGRFs @ (by Ammler)
12:42:24  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop NewGRF package - Bug #548 (Confirmed): Remove FooBar's NewGRFs @ (by Ammler)
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13:20:20  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop NewGRF package - Bug #550 (Confirmed): Remove ECS from George @ (by Ammler)
13:20:21  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop NewGRF package - Bug #551 (Confirmed): Remove single GRFs @ (by Ammler)
13:51:35  <Ammler> Hmm, I guess, we now need to move to the mercurial-server
13:51:43  <Ammler> as we need private repos...
13:59:04  <Rubidium> why would you need private repos?
13:59:16  <Rubidium> just run it somewhere else
14:04:08  <Brot6> webottd: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
14:23:30  <Ammler> Rubidium: for the grfpack
14:23:56  <Ammler> MB complained about his grfs are downloadable as pure grfs
14:24:51  <Ammler> so we closed svn, but I would like to move it to the devzone, so we can shutdown svn completely
14:25:34  <Rubidium> just get rid of MB's crap
14:25:45  <Rubidium> openttd isn't good enough anyway
14:25:58  <Ammler> well, also if we would, we need those for the archives
14:26:53  <Rubidium> so, make one for 'archived' games and one for 'recent' games
14:27:34  <Ammler> hmm, recent games should be bananas only :-)
14:27:34  <Rubidium> put all the old crapload in the archived thingy and start with a 'clean' one for the recent games (or just drop non-bananas NewGRFs)
14:28:42  <Rubidium> and don't bother 'updating' the GRF package; releasing a new one just to remove stuff doesn't add much value besides duplicating newgrfs (people thinking they *need* the new package and such)
14:28:46  <Ammler> but also some banans grfs can't be removed, like ISR
14:29:36  <Ammler> those guys take the license stuff a bit too serious.
14:29:46  <Rubidium> huh?
14:30:13  <Rubidium> if it's in bananas it's in bananas, if it isn't it isn't and you don't use it in new games
14:30:31  <Ammler> but in archived games, which is our pack for, too.
14:30:52  <Rubidium> Ammler: so, just *keep* the current pack and don't bother removing stuff that's added to bananas
14:31:03  <Rubidium> maybe rename it or so
14:31:15  <Ammler> hmm, that is mainly what we do.
14:31:35  <Ammler> but I like to remove the bananas grfs to "force" guys to use newer versions.
14:32:40  <Ammler> but if I would remove the bananas ISR, dummy people might use the obsolete ISR versions. :-)
14:33:01  <Rubidium> do you think people will remove the old package?
14:33:52  <Ammler> well, if we tell them to do
14:34:05  <Ammler> specially those who creates scearios
14:34:56  <Ammler> they don't need to remove it, they just shouldn't use it for new maps.
14:36:15  * Rubidium must be very stupid... but doesn't get the problem at all
14:36:27  <Ammler> Hmm, I could make 2 packs, one for the archive with obsolete and the other for current games
14:36:39  <Rubidium> a) the grf package + bananas should load all games
14:36:50  <Ammler> yes.
14:36:58  <Rubidium> b) the grf package + banans should force scenario makers to use the newest grfs
14:36:58  <Ammler> which it does now.
14:37:25  <Ammler> yep
14:37:46  <Ammler> which isn't given, as they can use older pack grfs.
14:37:49  <Rubidium> well, good luck... because you can't *ever*
14:38:05  <Rubidium> there's no concept of 'newer' for NewGRFs
14:38:34  <Ammler> I know, and it seems also not wanted by you, so we need to do it with the pack.
14:38:57  <Ammler> well, at least to make it a bit easier.
14:39:15  <Ammler> so not every new game has so many old grfs.
14:39:29  <Rubidium> not wanted by me? I haven't designed the nfo stuff
14:40:20  <Ammler> well, but you would have the power to add versioning :-)
14:40:21  <Rubidium> Ammler: then *remove* the newgrf pack from the server: scenario fails to load -> start again with new NewGRFs
14:41:03  <Ammler> Rubidium: that is the annoying part
14:41:27  <Rubidium> Ammler: why annoying? It's teaching them to use the new stuff, i.e. to remove the archive .tar
14:41:43  <Ammler> but it isn't that easy why it fails
14:41:56  <Ammler> for non ssh guys
14:42:34  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop NewGRF package - Bug #542: Remove OpenGFX newgrfs @ (by planetmaker)
14:42:34  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #595: spin-off newgrfs @ (by planetmaker)
14:42:59  <Ammler> so we need admins in that moment which are rarly at the moment :-)
14:43:51  <KenjiE20> the log viewer doesn't need ssh :)
14:45:48  <KenjiE20> besides we could avoid all that by sending a memo out to members, to scrutineer the sav's loaded fully
14:46:40  <Ammler> KenjiE20: something like a save tester
14:46:50  <KenjiE20> or that
14:47:02  <Ammler> which does simple load a save and output the debug output for newgrfs
14:47:06  <KenjiE20> I was just thinking a new coop folder
14:47:47  <Ammler> should be easy grepable for grf errors
14:47:53  <KenjiE20> could probably make php load a sav as binary and pinch loadsave.cpp's stuff
14:48:40  <Ammler> also not sure, if openttd still needs a restart after bananas update
14:48:51  <KenjiE20> wouldn't have thought so
14:49:08  <KenjiE20> I never do when joining
14:49:59  <Ammler> but we need a restart for the logs anyway
14:50:17  <KenjiE20> yes, I mentioned that in the alter-verse
14:50:24  <KenjiE20> something for a future AP thingy
14:50:49  <Ammler> well, I was always in thought, Avignon will be future AO :-)
14:50:56  <Ammler> AP*
14:51:22  <KenjiE20> so do I, but it's easier to type AP :P
14:56:55  <Ammler> I meant, that is the reason, we didn't make much for AP anymore.
14:57:08  <Ammler> just some minor things to keep it working with trunk
15:06:16  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop NewGRF package - Bug #542: Remove OpenGFX newgrfs @ (by Ammler)
15:06:16  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #595: spin-off newgrfs @ (by Ammler)
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16:18:01  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: update from r322 to r323, starting nightly compile
16:18:32  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: compile done (10 errors) -
16:18:33  <Brot6> bros: nightly compile not needed. (r10)
16:18:33  <Brot6> firs: update from r217 to r248, starting nightly compile
16:18:53  <Brot6> firs: compile done (1 errors) -
16:18:53  <Brot6> fish: nightly compile not needed. (r159)
16:18:53  <Brot6> heqs: nightly compile not needed. (r169)
16:18:54  <Brot6> nmts: nightly compile not needed. (r15)
16:18:54  <Brot6> opengfx: nightly compile not needed. (r205)
16:18:55  <Brot6> opensfx: nightly compile not needed. (r43)
16:18:56  <Brot6> worldairlineset: nightly compile not needed. (r584)
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19:07:27  <DJNekkid> hmm ... how should i balance the running costs on the metros...
19:08:14  <DJNekkid> and im also thinking, is instant un/loading on them totally out of balance?
20:09:28  <DJNekkid> and: should they have mail/armor capabilities? :)
20:39:34  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #595: spin-off newgrfs @ (by athanasios)
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21:52:10  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: it doesn't hurt to allow metros mail / armor capabilities
21:52:16  <planetmaker> what resembles "instant unloading"? You mean WAY faster than trains?
21:52:42  <planetmaker> might make it more attractive in metropolitan areas / as feeders.
21:53:14  <DJNekkid> currently its suppose to be 60/tick, vs 20 on regional and 8 on Ic trains
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21:56:18  <planetmaker> hm... what about factors of 5?
21:56:31  <planetmaker> 8 vs. 40 vs. 200
21:58:34  <DJNekkid> id say 40 would be a bit much again on the regionals...
21:58:49  <DJNekkid> i mean; there are some semi-high speed ICs...
21:58:54  <DJNekkid> 200-230kmh ish
21:59:10  <DJNekkid> fastest regional is 160 or 80 iir
21:59:12  <DJNekkid> c
22:00:20  * Rubidium wonders what is considered an IC
22:01:20  <Rubidium> e.g. in Japan it's somewhat troublesome concept
22:02:14  <DJNekkid> well...
22:02:31  <DJNekkid> good question, but in 2cc set terms, pretty much trains faster then 200kmh
22:03:11  <Rubidium> and what's the distinction between metro and regional?
22:03:28  <DJNekkid> metro is sub100kmh, and regionals are inbetweens
22:03:53  <DJNekkid> well, all in all, regional trains are typical commuter trains
22:04:33  <Rubidium> in that case Japan doesn't have lots of metros ;)
22:04:45  <DJNekkid> hehe...
22:04:53  <DJNekkid> good thing we dont have many japanese trains then :P
22:06:10  <planetmaker> :-P
22:06:13  <Rubidium> the Japanese have a tendency to run their trains far outside of what you can consider the subway
22:06:41  <planetmaker> The Japanese set is GPL, though. If you feel that we miss something, I guess we could add a few more. And ask them nicely :-)
22:07:49  <Rubidium> although for... uhm... pax loading those Japanese 'regional' trains are, in urban areas, quite amazing
22:08:01  <planetmaker> :-D
22:08:09  <DJNekkid> well, if we look at france/paris ... TGVs are IC, RER is regional, and the metro is ... metro
22:08:23  <Rubidium> 3 to 5 'extra wide' double doors per carriage
22:08:31  <planetmaker> Japanese are quite compressible, if they start entering trains
22:08:38  <planetmaker> Europeans much less so
22:09:03  <DJNekkid> a good 20cm and kgs taller and heavier? :P
22:09:12  <planetmaker> and Japanese are quick there :-)
22:09:17  <KenjiE20> they also pack the seats away during rush hours
22:09:21  <planetmaker> ^^
22:10:15  <Rubidium> KenjiE20: yup... but once the train is somewhat out of the city center people start using them (again)
22:10:39  <KenjiE20> depends, on both toc and area
22:10:42  <DJNekkid> anyway, we didnt get much closer to something useable here :)
22:10:42  <Rubidium> and not on all lines; they push lots of equipment under the seats
22:11:00  <KenjiE20> they physically remove them on some lines
22:11:39  <Rubidium> heh, that reminds me of a bridge in/near San Diego
22:12:15  <Rubidium> but what's the English word I need :(
22:12:38  <DJNekkid> :P
22:12:50  <KenjiE20> dunno, what is the english word you need?
22:13:22  <Rubidium> the concrete barrier they put between the two opposing driving directions on highways
22:15:38  <DJNekkid> what about it?
22:15:49  <KenjiE20> "central reservation"?
22:15:52  <Rubidium> anyhow, that concrete barrier is phyiscally moved twice a day to get more lanes into/out of San Diego
22:16:07  <DJNekkid> wow! thats quite impressive
22:16:26  <KenjiE20> they do that with some train lines too iirc
22:16:53  <KenjiE20> in India I think
22:17:38  <Rubidium> KenjiE20: for trains that would be replacing switches twice a day
22:17:46  <Rubidium> don't think they do that
22:18:00  <KenjiE20> "in India" <- key phrase :P
22:18:18  <Rubidium> that they use a 2 lines into the center and 1 out and vice versa later in the day is something quite different
22:21:13  <KenjiE20> I guess
22:22:21  <Rubidium> anyhow, balancing of loading time is going to be a bitch
22:24:24  <DJNekkid> well... ICs should be rather slow ...
22:24:34  <DJNekkid> the commuter trains a bit faster ...
22:24:47  <DJNekkid> and i am concidering doing the metros at VERY high
22:25:05  <DJNekkid> so that they enter a station, un/load, and go on
22:25:24  <DJNekkid> right now they tend to stop, and load, then they load a 2nd time when new pax arrive, etc
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23:22:24  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Feature #595: spin-off newgrfs @ (by Ammler)
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