Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 7th December 2009:
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00:02:29  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop - Revision 42: [OTTD] create Tortoise compatible svn patch @ (by Ammler)
00:02:29  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop - Revision 43: [HG] query non-sh only @ (by Ammler)
00:02:29  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: #openttdcoop - Revision 44: [CF] push the created bundles to SSH host @ (by Ammler)
00:35:57  <Brot6> is2: new trunk patch:
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02:12:25  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: Redmine - Revision 2971: Translation updates @ (by winterheart)
02:33:45  <Brot6> Backup done! (Usage: 107M)
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15:29:28  <Hirundo_> For some reason a firewall is blocking some IRC ports for me :S
16:01:57  <Ammler> Hirundo_: didn't you get my mail?
16:02:33  <Hirundo_> I didn't
16:02:40  <Ammler> I have moved the bouncer to the new server, I have no idea, which host you used
16:02:53  <Ammler> so just change the host to
16:03:33  <Ammler> or
16:03:34  <Hirundo_> ssl or normal?
16:04:09  <Ammler> ssl and better use bnc.
16:04:58  *** Hirundo is now known as Jasper
16:05:31  *** Hirundo_ is now known as Hirundo
16:06:52  *** Jasper is now known as Hirundo
16:07:36  <Ammler> the webadmin has the same address/port, just http
16:07:47  <Hirundo> bnc doesn't work, the certificate is not valid
16:07:53  <Ammler> yes, I know
16:08:19  <Ammler> if you can't skip that test, use ith without the host.
16:08:19  <Hirundo> chatzilla doesn't like that, so I'm sticking to for now
16:08:36  <Ammler> I will install a cert for bnc...
17:18:02  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: nightly compile not needed. (r381)
17:18:04  <Brot6> bros: nightly compile not needed. (r10)
17:18:06  <Brot6> comic_houses: nightly compile not needed. (r65)
17:18:06  <Brot6> firs: nightly compile not needed. (r366)
17:18:07  <Brot6> fish: update from r214 to r220, starting nightly compile
17:18:45  <Brot6> fish: compile done (1 errors) -
17:18:46  <Brot6> heqs: nightly compile not needed. (r172)
17:18:46  <Brot6> nmts: nightly compile not needed. (r15)
17:18:46  <Brot6> opengfx: nightly compile not needed. (r261)
17:18:47  <Brot6> opensfx: nightly compile not needed. (r50)
17:18:47  <Brot6> worldairlineset: nightly compile not needed. (r584)
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17:43:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 382: Fix: The tender now works as it should; i changed its ID from 00 to... @ (by DJNekkid)
17:43:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Bug #645 (Resolved): Something wrong with the tender @ (by DJNekkid)
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18:20:34  <Brot6> is2: new trunk patch:
19:04:02  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
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19:08:15  <DJNekkid> hi guy(s)
19:11:37  <DJNekkid> planetmaker: ARE YOU HERE?
19:11:41  <DJNekkid> ehm, are you here? :)
19:18:05  <planetmaker> ehm... just returned home. Hi DJNekkid
19:18:42  <DJNekkid> i were wondering if some #ifdef-stuff were gonna work, but then i realized i could do it in excel :P
19:19:58  <planetmaker> #idfdef blubber should work
19:20:23  <DJNekkid> #ifdef this_engine_year
19:20:36  <DJNekkid> 25 this_eng_year
19:20:40  <DJNekkid> #ifend
19:20:41  <planetmaker> yes. I'd put that in a template. Rather the other way around:
19:20:46  <DJNekkid> i know
19:20:49  <planetmaker> #ifndef this_eng_year
19:20:58  <planetmaker> #define this_eng_year 1539
19:20:58  <DJNekkid> but i did put it in the excel
19:21:00  <planetmaker> #endif
19:21:25  <DJNekkid> so all engines get a longformat
19:21:32  <planetmaker> good.
19:21:45  <planetmaker> The comic houses have both, short and long
19:21:59  <DJNekkid> YEA
19:22:03  <DJNekkid> i just realized i need it
19:22:03  <planetmaker> But if you have years between 1920 and 2070, you don't need long
19:22:21  <DJNekkid> dont hurt :)
19:22:21  <planetmaker> if long year is present, though it takes precedence over short
19:22:28  <planetmaker> ^
19:22:41  <DJNekkid> all introyears could actually be set to 1920
19:22:45  <DJNekkid> hmmm...
19:22:49  <planetmaker> hu?
19:22:54  <DJNekkid> short years
19:23:10  <planetmaker> well... don't bother setting it
19:23:17  <planetmaker> or set it to the same thing
19:23:24  <DJNekkid> what if its 1903 :)
19:23:32  <DJNekkid> like the london1903 metro
19:23:35  <DJNekkid> :D
19:23:50  <planetmaker> (or rather: short year = (long year < 1920) ? 1920 : long year
19:24:04  <DJNekkid> point was
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19:24:12  <DJNekkid> in the code, i can set all introyears (short) to 1920
19:24:17  <DJNekkid> then let the long format do the work
19:24:41  <planetmaker> and I say: why then set short year at all?
19:24:44  <planetmaker> if it's rubbish?
19:24:52  <planetmaker> either set it properly or leave it
19:25:22  <DJNekkid> quote ... This property must be set after property 00 to take effect
19:26:04  <planetmaker> ah... I forgot. Again, inconsistent, different :S
19:26:12  <planetmaker> train long dates is in days, not years
19:26:21  <planetmaker> what a pain
19:27:02  <DJNekkid> not really
19:27:09  <DJNekkid> =$AO&$B14&$AO&ROUND(J14*365,24)
19:27:13  <DJNekkid> hehe
19:27:33  <planetmaker> Well. But why then have not this for houses, too? But have there only years?
19:27:42  <planetmaker> Or vice versa: wouldn't years for trains suffice?
19:27:51  <planetmaker> But it's mute. It's just as it is.
19:28:07  <DJNekkid> i bet it is because newhouses were developen WAY later then trains
19:28:15  <DJNekkid> as you can see, the train properties are added as we go
19:28:26  <planetmaker> so?
19:28:28  <DJNekkid> newhouses were developed at a much much later state
19:28:40  <planetmaker> what's your point then?
19:28:51  <planetmaker> It's no argument against consistency
19:29:00  <DJNekkid> what isnt concistant btw?
19:29:05  <DJNekkid> long format for houses is in yeras?
19:29:09  <DJNekkid> *years
19:29:10  <DJNekkid> ?
19:29:14  <planetmaker> yes.
19:29:16  <DJNekkid> oh
19:29:17  <planetmaker> I set there 1850 directly
19:29:20  <DJNekkid> then i see your point
19:29:31  <DJNekkid> i thought they were in days as well :)
19:29:32  <planetmaker> :-)
19:29:58  <planetmaker> having the same property number / name would be nice, too. But alas. Different things, different numbers
19:30:45  <DJNekkid> yup...
19:30:50  <DJNekkid> and different properties
19:30:53  <planetmaker> yup
19:36:03  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: does actually \w<date> work for property 2A ?
19:36:15  <DJNekkid> that would be \d if so
19:36:18  <DJNekkid> but i dunno
19:36:24  <DJNekkid> i convert it
19:36:25  <planetmaker> then it's not really a problem... and easily readable
19:36:35  <planetmaker>
19:36:41  <planetmaker> maybe just try it :-)
19:36:49  <planetmaker> just for fun
19:36:54  <planetmaker> if it works... nice
19:37:00  <planetmaker> nicer NFO to debug
19:37:21  <planetmaker> and no, I mean \w :-)
19:37:42  <DJNekkid> you cant mean \w, as property 2A is a doubleword
19:37:58  <planetmaker> hm... or \d
19:38:01  <DJNekkid> :D
19:38:42  <planetmaker> try the date directly \d1850-12-07
19:38:53  <planetmaker> for the same date as today a few years back :-P
19:39:25  <planetmaker> <date> is a date in one of the four formats YYYY-MM-DD, YYYY/MM/DD, DD-MM-YYYY, or DD/MM/YYYY. In all cases, leading zeros may be omitted.
19:39:48  <DJNekkid> and that tells you?
19:40:20  <planetmaker> the possible formats a date could be entered in NFO
19:40:23  <planetmaker> or... ?
19:40:29  <DJNekkid> yes :)
19:40:47  <planetmaker> and it's nicer than an intro date of 034495774
19:40:55  <planetmaker> if it comes to debugging
19:41:00  <DJNekkid> usually 600 and 700k-area :)
19:41:12  <planetmaker> MUCH nicer. Especially as intro dates are a problem in current 2cc Trainset
19:41:50  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: Just give it a try. It's not that difficult, is it? (ref. #openttd) :-P
19:42:13  <DJNekkid> im trying as we speak
19:42:29  <DJNekkid> but i've made some changes to other stuff as well, and i need to fix my prev flaws first :)
19:42:39  <planetmaker> :-)
19:42:46  <planetmaker> hg diff > otherchanges.diff
19:42:46  <DJNekkid> its not like anyone have actually awsnerd me :)
19:42:48  <planetmaker> hg revert
19:42:55  <planetmaker> edit something else
19:46:49  <DJNekkid> btw, it dont _seem_ to work
19:48:53  <planetmaker> the verbatim dates?
19:49:19  <DJNekkid> YES
19:49:20  <DJNekkid> :(
19:49:42  <planetmaker> meh :-(
19:51:23  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 262: Add: Dutch description of this set (bokkie) @ (by planetmaker)
19:53:11  <DJNekkid> and INTROYEAR should almost be INTRODAY :)
19:53:22  <planetmaker> :-) Indeed
19:53:36  <planetmaker> rather: introdate
19:53:48  <DJNekkid> even that
19:53:56  <planetmaker> julian introdate :-)
19:53:56  <DJNekkid> but, im not gonna change that in 60 files
19:53:59  <DJNekkid> or whatever :)
19:54:29  <DJNekkid> or then again
19:54:31  <DJNekkid> it actually do work!
19:54:43  <DJNekkid> happy birthday to us!
19:55:38  <planetmaker> what works? The day as a big number or did you manage to get a nice date in the nfo?
19:55:45  <planetmaker> <-- not even Julian date...
19:55:46  <Webster> Title: Julian day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at
19:55:59  <DJNekkid> \dyyyy-mm-dd
19:58:39  <planetmaker> it works!? Congratz
19:59:22  <DJNekkid> i just have alot of work to do
19:59:40  <DJNekkid> there seems there are quite a few engines and stuff that dont use the proper nustyle system :)
19:59:52  <planetmaker> :-) coding IS a lot of work. Nearly always
20:00:00  <planetmaker> nustyle?
20:00:15  <DJNekkid> #include template
20:00:15  <planetmaker> or MU-style?
20:00:17  <planetmaker> oh
20:00:23  <planetmaker> bad bad
20:01:07  <planetmaker> after v2 we should convert it to a internal format like the comic houses. But not before. Or we'll start producing vapor-ware like MB
20:01:30  <DJNekkid> hehe!
20:01:46  <planetmaker> well... yes! ;-)
20:02:01  <planetmaker> I don't feel like doing the conversion now... because of the time it'd eat.
20:02:08  <DJNekkid> but what would that internal format be?
20:02:21  <planetmaker> a stats table for the trains.
20:02:45  <planetmaker> from that let a script write the defines
20:03:01  <planetmaker> e.g. you don't have to copy&paste anything ever
20:03:07  <planetmaker> you just add a line in the list and done
20:03:24  <planetmaker> if you have a ready-to-use template (template name to use is part of that list)
20:03:50  <DJNekkid> smells good
20:04:01  <DJNekkid> excel will do EVEN more for us? :P
20:04:03  <planetmaker> Also the translation even gets easier with that: the English file is generated
20:04:16  <planetmaker> and others may translate some or all strings
20:04:55  <planetmaker> Well... it wouldn't be excel anymore then. It'd be a simple table preferrably.
20:05:06  <planetmaker> or we could write that table by means of excel - yes
20:05:24  <planetmaker> But I'd prefer not to ;-)
20:05:39  <DJNekkid> feel free to make all calculations elsewhere then :)
20:06:04  <planetmaker> Yes... in the scripts...
20:06:15  <planetmaker> But I'd need to teach you how to use them then :-)
20:06:23  <planetmaker> and how to modify them
20:06:44  <planetmaker> which is not that difficult
20:06:45  <DJNekkid> but the downside of that is also a few
20:07:08  <DJNekkid> its hard to compare a certain train up against another train
20:07:22  <planetmaker>
20:07:31  <planetmaker> why is it hard to compare?
20:07:35  <DJNekkid> but then again, every other idea you have had i've converted to :)
20:07:42  <planetmaker> You have all things which you define in that nice table
20:08:06  <DJNekkid> not things that are autocalculated
20:08:33  <DJNekkid> but either way, we _are_ starting to develop some kind of _higher_ nfo language here :)
20:08:45  <planetmaker> indeed :-)
20:09:10  <planetmaker> well... the basic nfo is always needed: you need to write the templates
20:09:20  <DJNekkid> yup...
20:09:24  <DJNekkid> good thing we have me :P
20:09:40  <planetmaker> which is nothing different from plain NFO with names instead of numbers
20:09:58  <DJNekkid> btw, if im not in irc, and you need to catch me, PM me on facebook or TT-forums
20:10:32  <planetmaker> k
20:11:02  <planetmaker> you taught me much wrt NFO... :-)
20:11:19  <DJNekkid> thats good i hope
20:11:31  <planetmaker> of course
20:11:38  <DJNekkid> i still have lots to learn
20:11:49  <DJNekkid> but basicly, var2's/callbacks are the hard parts
20:11:59  <DJNekkid> and once you understand how they ACTUALLY Work, its easy :)
20:12:16  <DJNekkid> then its all about writing good .nfo
20:12:21  <planetmaker> I still need at one time programme a callback myself... vararction2 (not var!) are not that hard
20:12:40  <planetmaker> it's just a sequence of conditional jumps
20:12:49  <DJNekkid> all in all yes
20:13:27  <DJNekkid> but at one time you need to read gibberish... i.e. patch wiki :)
20:13:45  <planetmaker> I read it all the time.
20:14:06  <planetmaker> Like having half a dozen windows of it open when I programme NFO. But heck - why not?
20:14:19  <DJNekkid> i do that too at times :)
20:14:31  <DJNekkid> well, reading it isnt the hard part, understanding it is
20:14:32  <planetmaker> It's not like I need to know all those numbers. I just need the concepts - numbers is something the wiki can tell me easily
20:14:45  <planetmaker> indeed, yes
20:22:21  <DJNekkid> i really should make one more MU-template
20:22:24  <DJNekkid> but another day...
20:22:34  <DJNekkid> ET420, BM73 and a few other share pattern
20:23:55  <DJNekkid> as well as some of the dual-engine-type MU's ...
20:24:04  <DJNekkid> IC125, that canadian one
20:24:46  <DJNekkid> LRC or something
20:30:22  <planetmaker> he :-)
20:30:43  <planetmaker> If one wants to emply the list approach I just outlined, EVERY train needs a template.
20:30:55  <planetmaker> Even if it's a unique template for that one train :-P
20:31:36  <DJNekkid> :D
20:32:10  <planetmaker> doesn't hurt, though. It's not like it's more work
20:32:23  <Rubidium> don't forget to templatize the template then :)
20:32:31  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
20:32:48  <planetmaker> An awk script writes the language template actually... does that count?
20:33:30  <planetmaker> I know... it's insane ;-) But it works.
20:33:45  <planetmaker> And I'm too lazy for copy&paste
20:33:48  <Rubidium> luckily it isn't a COBOL app
20:33:55  <planetmaker> :-D
20:34:07  * planetmaker wouldn't know how cobol source would look like, though
20:34:31  <DJNekkid> planetmaker: my wife were wondering if you have a kitty :)
20:34:51  <Rubidium> ADD YEARS TO AGE
20:35:36  <planetmaker> :-) He, seems I look like a person who has a kitty? The answer, though, is: I don't have pets.
20:36:25  <DJNekkid> that is what _I_ thought as well... SHE were wondering .P
20:36:28  <planetmaker> looks cryptic, Rubidium
20:37:02  <planetmaker> If you know it, though, you can be a well-paid man :-)
20:37:29  <Rubidium> hmm... object oriented COBOL
20:39:02  <Rubidium> :( they removed the self-modifying code capability
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20:39:39  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: I have a few cacti - does that count? ;-)
20:40:17  <planetmaker> they're always happen when I travel. No water then - and they thank it by growing flowers upon my return home :-P
20:40:20  <DJNekkid> i asume that is cactuses?
20:40:24  <planetmaker> yes
20:40:55  <DJNekkid> it counts if you talk to them occationally :)
20:40:59  <planetmaker> I chose the other plural form of it ;-)
20:41:04  <planetmaker> hahaha :-)
20:41:33  <Rubidium> planetmaker: maybe you have Cochineals
20:42:04  <DJNekkid> she saies she can buy you some eyes and a mouth with sticky tape on the backside... for your cacti... then they might seem a bit more alive...
20:42:28  <planetmaker> :-D
20:42:38  <planetmaker> Rubidium: might be... why?
20:43:13  <planetmaker> But I'd be surprised, though
20:43:23  <Rubidium> do you have red-ish/pink youghurts/food?
20:43:41  <planetmaker> :-D Indeed
20:43:52  <planetmaker> That colour comes from them?
20:43:59  <Rubidium> yes, E120
20:45:16  <planetmaker> nice
20:45:30  <planetmaker> But I doubt they jumped from my yoghurt to the cacti ;-)
20:45:48  <Rubidium> no, they grow on (some) cacti
20:48:39  <planetmaker> any idea how big they are? wiki doesn't know
20:49:10  <Rubidium> 70.000 go into a kg
20:50:12  <planetmaker> 6...7mm - the German wiki knows :-)
20:50:15  <Rubidium> oh sorry, 70.000 in a pound
20:58:16  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 263: Add: Hungarian translation (molace) @ (by planetmaker)
21:06:09  <DJNekkid> jees...
21:06:19  <DJNekkid> adding ONE metro now took me ... i dunno... 3-4 hrs?
21:07:33  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 383: Change: Huge change, added long format introdate to all trains @ (by DJNekkid)
21:07:33  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 384: Fix: error in metro template file, could not attach MU-wagons, plus... @ (by DJNekkid)
21:07:33  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Revision 385: Add: London1903 metro @ (by DJNekkid)
21:08:00  <planetmaker> he... the newest PCX by molace are finally nicely aligned and well commented. Something I can WAY better work with :-)
21:08:42  <planetmaker> I guess I should get at least *some* into OpenGFX or he'll start to become quite disappointed
21:10:06  *** Mark has quit IRC
21:11:07  <DJNekkid> is that the wagon-guy?
21:11:13  <planetmaker> yes
21:11:22  <DJNekkid> did he awnser on the 2cc request?
21:11:32  <planetmaker> no
21:14:39  <DJNekkid> hmm
21:14:45  <DJNekkid> no MUs left to code
21:15:01  <DJNekkid> a handfull of metros need to be moved (pcx-work)
21:15:09  <DJNekkid> i can however add pax wagons
21:15:57  <planetmaker> I guess we could (re-)use wagons from molace. They're awesome
21:17:05  <DJNekkid> i heavent seen them yet, he uploads in pcx :)
21:19:41  <DJNekkid> *opening now*
21:22:29  <DJNekkid> hmm
21:22:36  <DJNekkid> they wont open properly, atleast not in i.mage
21:22:41  <DJNekkid> can you save one in .png and send?
21:28:16  <planetmaker> gimp knows them fine
21:28:34  <planetmaker> let me check out the pax wagon ingame before I do many conversions
21:29:40  <planetmaker> hm... I see many "white pixel errors" ahead...
21:30:07  <DJNekkid> from my updates?
21:32:50  <planetmaker> no. From molace's sprites
21:32:58  <DJNekkid> oh?
21:33:09  <planetmaker> <-- for you
21:34:15  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: 2cc train set - Feature #145: Redo (all) (cargo) wagons @ (by planetmaker)
21:34:31  <DJNekkid> not too bad
21:34:43  <DJNekkid> but they feels so ... 'original'
21:36:20  <planetmaker> well...
21:40:30  <DJNekkid> :D
22:03:15  *** PeterT has quit IRC
22:08:56  <DJNekkid> when did intercity trains start to get some _acceptable_ speed?
22:09:05  <DJNekkid> say around 100kmh in 1900 ?
22:09:31  <planetmaker> in 1930s there was 160km/h between Hamburg and Berlin
22:09:41  <planetmaker> or around that speed and date
22:11:41  <DJNekkid> and in 1900?
22:14:57  <DJNekkid> just trying how to figure out the speed penalty on the early wagons
22:15:07  <DJNekkid> or, wagons in general
22:16:17  <DJNekkid> well, cost/speed penalty
22:26:26  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenSFX - Revision 51: -Add: samples for the plastic mine (closes: #402) @ (by Rubidium)
22:26:26  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenSFX - Revision 52: -Change: remove some information from the .sfo as that can be found in the... @ (by Rubidium)
22:26:26  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenSFX - Feature #402 (Closed): Sample 51: Plastic mine @ (by Rubidium)
22:35:56  <DJNekkid> planetmaker: are you still here?
22:36:51  <planetmaker> yes
22:37:02  <planetmaker> busy maglev adding to OpenGFX
22:37:11  <DJNekkid> oki... :)
22:37:57  <DJNekkid> im trying to actually balance this shit!
22:37:59  <DJNekkid> hard!
22:38:10  <planetmaker> :-)
22:38:41  <planetmaker> you mean it is difficult to balance or you want to make a newgrf which is difficult for the player?
22:39:00  <DJNekkid> difficult to balance the newgrf
22:39:12  <DJNekkid> for example:
22:40:14  <DJNekkid> you could carry just the same ammont of people on a similar long train, twice about 20% faster (or 17 or so) for about twice the cost, in 1935
22:40:26  <DJNekkid> ehm
22:40:34  <DJNekkid> 20% faster, but twice the cost
22:40:43  <DJNekkid> 120 vs 144kmh
22:41:03  <DJNekkid> what would people choose :)
22:43:31  <DJNekkid> otoh, the first alternative would require them to invest 10x in infrastructure...
22:45:27  <DJNekkid> this probably gonna need playtesting :)
22:45:31  <DJNekkid> but it might be fun :)
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23:04:02  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
23:04:20  <Brot6> opengfx: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
23:04:26  <Brot6> opensfx: Backup push to ssh:// initiated.
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23:05:15  <planetmaker> I guess it needs just that, yes
23:27:13  <Brot6> ::DevZone:: OpenGFX - Revision 264: Change: Replace all monorail & maglev wagons by wagons of the correct siz... @ (by planetmaker)
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