Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 7th January 2010:
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13:06:25  <Ammler> planetmaker: shall we create a kind of inofficial osx bundles repo?
13:20:19  <Rubidium> we'll just offload all bug reports to you :)
13:25:03  <Ammler> did you stop compiling osx builds because of that or does your CF fail to compile now?
13:25:04  <Rubidium> I'm also hoping that this way we 'generate' some publicity in the Mac community
13:25:24  <Rubidium> Ammler: it probably just compiles, it's just disabled
13:25:56  <Ammler> well, the issue is, they post now quite ugly bundles because of the file size limit on tt-forums.
13:27:32  <Rubidium> what bundles?
13:27:54  <Ammler> like the binary  only, without license and other data
13:28:07  <Rubidium> that one is gone
13:28:45  <Ammler> yes, but it should be possible somehow
13:29:45  <Rubidium> host it on their own computer?
13:30:12  <Rubidium> the problem with providing Mac OS X binaries is that the Mac community still thinks that it's all fine, when it just isn't
13:30:41  <Rubidium> like... yeah, if you don't do this, that and so then it works quite well... That's just to say, it's horribly broken
13:31:36  <Ammler> well, I have no idea about what's really broken, I just wouldn't like to see those zips like he uploaded...
13:31:44  <Rubidium> and don't get me wrong... but... it all worked *before* they went with Intel
13:32:09  <Rubidium> and since 10.5 it's only getting worse
13:32:38  <Ammler> well, since they went intel, apple became a boring pc
13:33:25  <Ammler> and now they need to try to make it still somehow incompatible
13:33:49  <Ammler> so the "mac mystery" is still around
13:35:38  <Rubidium> but now Mac is nothing more than a white piece of hardware with a glowing half eaten apple
13:35:46  <Ammler> :-)
13:36:21  <Ammler> oh, and don't get me wrong, I don't want to "workaround" your policy, I just wanted to help those mac guys...
13:37:09  <Ammler> poor* :-)
13:37:25  <Rubidium> but *are* you helping them in the long run?
13:38:24  <Ammler> 99% of the mac users can't help you anyway, and they don't have the power to change something either.
13:38:50  <Ammler> apple does rule his users, not opposite :-)
13:39:04  <Rubidium> the wrongly packaged binary on the forum was/is missing some libraries
13:40:36  <Ammler> you might still be the most skilled mac dev around :-P
13:40:49  <Rubidium> Ammler: but the 99% can complain about it at the mac fora and then maybe they see there is interest
13:42:13  <Rubidium> actually... TrueBrain and orudge have a mac these days. TrueBrain just plainly refuses to do any development of the Mac port, orudge has no knowledge (nor time)
13:44:07  <Rubidium> so that basically sums the interest of the Mac community quite nicely. Don't care if it's buggy, won't fix if I possibly can. That's no way to develop/maintain software with a reasonable amount of dignity/pride
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20:51:05  <andythenorth> planetmaker, Ammler hi hi, hg question...
20:52:00  <Ammler> that isn't a question, is it?
20:53:39  <andythenorth> [embarassed]
20:53:59  <andythenorth> I am about to make some fairly chunky changes in FIRS, that might turn out to be a bad idea
20:54:04  <andythenorth> should I branch or something?
20:55:08  <Ammler> no, but you can branch locally
20:55:43  <Ammler> and if you want, you can branch also remotely :-)
20:55:50  <Ammler> just clone your repo
20:56:08  <Ammler> hg clone firs firs-andy
20:56:13  <andythenorth> then merge later if necessary?
20:56:26  <Ammler> hg clone firs-andy ssh://
20:56:32  <Ammler> yes
20:56:51  <andythenorth> I'm not really sure what's best.  My VCS skills are limited :)
20:57:10  <Ammler> that is the easiest type to branch
20:57:40  <Ammler> it is also possible to branch with hg branch, but that is more complicated and imo in your case not worth to learn
20:58:13  <Ammler> as the branch is more meant as fork, not as branch like main version -> development version
20:58:41  <andythenorth> so in the future case that I only want some of my changes, is a branch easier than reverting specific files?
20:58:48  <Ammler> yes
20:59:02  <Ammler> well, reverting is easy too
20:59:17  <Ammler> hg help backout
20:59:52  <Ammler> but in your case, easiest is to clone current repo
21:00:30  <Ammler> if you like your branch, you can simply push them to the main repo
21:00:33  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 433: Delete: removed redundant Wind Farm PSD file <>
21:00:34  <Ammler> or pull from main repo
21:01:02  <Ammler> if you don't like the change, just trash the branch
21:02:05  <andythenorth> Ammler: sounds simple :)  Case: I type 'hg push' in the wrong file system location, and push the wrong branch.  What then?
21:02:53  <Ammler> if you type push on the new repo, it will push to your local clone
21:03:19  <Ammler> (you don't clone properities)
21:04:00  <andythenorth> clever thing hg
21:04:46  <Ammler> well, afaik, hg can everything what svn/git and whatever can, just in a more simple way...
21:04:51  <andythenorth> so until I'm happy with my branch, I'd better backup my hd?
21:05:08  <Ammler> why?
21:05:22  <Ammler> the main firs is on the devzone and on
21:05:48  <Ammler> and I backup the devzone daily to my local fileserver
21:06:29  * andythenorth confused
21:06:32  <Ammler> and the ISP does also create around 3 times per month the whole server
21:06:41  <Ammler> so there are already quite a lot backups ;-)
21:06:44  <andythenorth> so I clone my local repo?
21:06:50  <Ammler> yes
21:06:53  <andythenorth> then push that to my main local repo?
21:07:01  <Ammler> hg clone firs firs-exp
21:07:23  <Ammler> or however you want to call your branch
21:07:40  <Ammler> clone has already push/pull inclusive
21:08:26  <Ammler> and then you clone your branch to the devzone
21:08:49  <Ammler> hg clone firs-exp ssh://
21:11:19  <Ammler> so you can give others a URL to review
21:11:48  <Ammler> or you create a branch with hg branch :-)
21:12:21  <Ammler> but the disadavantage with hg branch is afaik, that you can't remove it anymore.
21:13:01  <andythenorth> Ok, now I understand it's cloned to the devzone.  I missed that somehow
21:14:08  <andythenorth> The most important reason to branch is that nightlies are very likely to break for a while.  Certainly they'll break savegames
21:15:31  <andythenorth> Ammler: ^^ I wonder if that matters though?
21:27:17  <Ammler> andythenorth: the question is, do you care?
21:27:53  <andythenorth> I am trying to get into the good habit of not having errors in the nightly
21:27:54  <Ammler> you should not commit something unworky anyway
21:28:11  <Ammler> also not to a branch :-)
21:28:21  <andythenorth> so I'll back up my HD then :)
21:28:32  <Ammler> oh, you get me wrong :-P
21:28:32  <andythenorth> VCS isn't really a backup system, it just gets treated that way
21:29:01  <Ammler> VCS is more than a backup
21:29:32  <Ammler> you know
21:29:42  <Ammler> commit != push
21:30:44  <Ammler> maybe you should talk to other devs, I am not a dev :-)
21:30:51  <andythenorth> ok
21:31:13  <Ammler> but I wouldn't commit something which I know, it will break the compile
21:31:18  <planetmaker> hey ho
21:31:22  <andythenorth> hi hi
21:31:32  <planetmaker> andythenorth, what I do with a couple of changes I'm not sure of: I make a diff
21:31:47  <planetmaker> and only commit what works on its own
21:31:59  <planetmaker> locally and publicly
21:32:34  <andythenorth> makes sense
21:32:35  <Ammler> also what you do with your local clone is up2you
21:32:53  <andythenorth> I'm going to make a local FIRS clone, just because it's no cost and might be useful
21:33:11  <andythenorth> but I'm going to develop in 'trunk' (and I use that term loosely here)
21:33:16  <planetmaker> indeed. For complicated cases I might clone my local one and work in there. Possibly commit it piece-wise small and not 100% tested
21:33:17  <Ammler> yes, and then make a patch against
21:33:28  <Ammler> and publish that as a ticket on devzone
21:33:32  <planetmaker> But then I can get diffs from there, apply it to the main repo and commit that ;-)
21:34:12  <andythenorth> Ok, spending the time to learn to diff now _might_ save some horrible merges later
21:34:24  <Ammler> but also those patches, you post on the devzone shouldn't break the compile ;-)
21:35:00  <planetmaker> In terms of OpenTTD it's called patch ;-9
21:35:04  <planetmaker> :-)
21:35:15  <andythenorth> so how do I do it step by step?
21:35:17  <planetmaker> same thing, just different name
21:35:32  <planetmaker> If you got some changes: hg diff > somefilename.diff
21:35:47  <planetmaker> then you have the changes wrt the version you modified in that file
21:36:08  <planetmaker> if you want to get rid of all of them: hg revert *
21:36:17  <planetmaker> or just in a file: hg revert path/to/file
21:36:23  <Ammler> just be aware, diffs don't work with binaries/images
21:36:30  <planetmaker> good point
21:36:31  <andythenorth> ok
21:36:35  <planetmaker> ty Ammler
21:38:17  <andythenorth> hmm
21:38:21  <andythenorth> it's too late to start on that
21:39:53  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it would be nice to discuss FIRS changes if you have time...
21:39:53  <andythenorth>
21:39:54  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development (at
21:40:09  <andythenorth> but nvm if it's not convenient ;)
21:42:28  <planetmaker> oh, changes conceptually
21:42:43  <andythenorth> yup
21:42:50  <andythenorth> including a little bit 'less'
21:43:05  * planetmaker just reads
21:44:16  <planetmaker> Hm... what does factory produce?
21:44:28  <andythenorth> goods
21:44:33  <andythenorth> using parts and packaging
21:44:37  <planetmaker> ah
21:44:41  <andythenorth> I've only used it once in about three games
21:45:03  <andythenorth> foundry produces parts and packaging -> factory.  One train, both cargos.  boring :)
21:45:16  <planetmaker> hm, yes
21:45:25  <andythenorth> also same for plastic plant -> factory
21:45:27  <planetmaker> It can produce goods straight away
21:45:33  <planetmaker> or both
21:45:48  <planetmaker> I like the idea of reducing complexity a bit.
21:46:34  <andythenorth> me too
21:48:41  <andythenorth> the waste cargo was requested several times on the forums, I thought it would be nice.  It's boring to play with though
21:52:12  <planetmaker> Hm... I'd leave waste :-)
21:52:32  <andythenorth> you like it?
22:01:10  <planetmaker> well... I like at least the idea
22:01:29  <planetmaker> Another reason for inner-city transports and for trucks
22:01:39  <planetmaker> HEQS needs then some waste trucks ;-)
22:06:22  <andythenorth> planetmaker: interesting.  I thought it would be fun to add waste trucks, but in my test games I didn't haul much waste
22:06:28  <andythenorth> I never haul mail with trucks either
22:06:50  <planetmaker> that explains it then ;-)
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22:21:50  <Rubidium> planetmaker: does the 8bpp blitter work for you, if so, can you confirm my suspicion about FS#3194?
22:28:19  <planetmaker> 8bpp works for me, with animation, yes. I'll check that diff and report back in that FS entry.
22:28:32  <planetmaker> I don't have my lappy at hand right now
22:47:29  <andythenorth> good night
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23:04:31  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 424: Change: shifted IDs for station texts <>
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