Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 10th January 2010:
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08:48:10  <roboboy> where can I find what the IS settings are called if I need to change them via rcon?
08:52:48  <Rubidium> list_settings?
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11:06:39  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #317: translation system <>
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11:52:39  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #317: translation system <>
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12:08:08  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #317: translation system <>
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12:20:56  <andythenorth> Hi FooBar
12:21:01  <andythenorth> how are you?
12:21:01  <FooBar> hi andy
12:21:06  <FooBar> I'm fine, thank you
12:21:32  <FooBar> so, what you wanted to talk about?
12:22:04  * andythenorth has some connectivity troubles - in case I go away unexpectedly!
12:22:23  <FooBar> still?
12:22:36  <andythenorth> still building a house...
12:22:45  <andythenorth> we'll get new broadband soon
12:22:53  <FooBar> ah, well carry on :)
12:23:04  <andythenorth> I tried a mobile broadband dongle but it just killed my mac
12:23:20  <andythenorth>
12:23:25  <FooBar> that sucks. But then those dongles suck as wel...
12:23:30  * FooBar clicks link
12:23:45  <andythenorth> also hg pull if you haven't recently
12:24:07  <FooBar> That would require me to set up my development stuff...
12:24:11  <andythenorth> also that ticket is now out of date
12:24:17  <andythenorth> ok don't pull :)
12:24:31  <FooBar> I recently installed Win7, but haven't gotten around setting everything up yet
12:24:48  <FooBar> I'm surprised IRC works :P
12:25:38  <FooBar> Anyways, I'm not opposed nor against such an economy feature
12:27:40  <Ammler> Hello FooBar :-) (just like to say "hello", no more)
12:27:54  <FooBar> Hi Ammler!
12:28:43  <FooBar> Oh, by the way Ammler, is my bouncer still active? You emailed me about that a while ago; I did email back some time but missed any further reply...
12:28:58  <Ammler> hmm, I didn't replay?
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12:29:11  <FooBar> Dunno, maybe I missed it...
12:29:15  <Ammler> I removed your account, but we still use the bouncer
12:29:26  <Ammler> so if you like to use it again, just ping.
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12:29:32  * andythenorth_ back
12:29:39  <FooBar> Ah, good. That's probably why I couldn't log in just now :P
12:29:59  <FooBar> Just keep it removed. Maybe when I get on IRC more often it might be useful to get it back
12:30:40  <FooBar> andythenorth, you got my :
12:30:42  <FooBar> [13:24]	<FooBar>	I recently installed Win7, but haven't gotten around setting everything up yet
12:30:44  <FooBar> [13:24]	<FooBar>	I'm surprised IRC works :P
12:30:45  <FooBar> [13:25]	<FooBar>	Anyways, I'm not opposed nor against such an economy feature
12:30:47  <FooBar> ?
12:30:57  <andythenorth_> FooBar: ok so FIRS...the plan is that one parameter controls economy.
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12:31:14  <andythenorth_> economy sets available cargos, payment rates, available industry types, probability in game
12:31:37  <andythenorth_> all config is via text files, and (very occasionally an action 7)
12:31:49  <FooBar> also the availability of stuff?
12:31:58  <FooBar> not just how expensive things are?
12:32:01  <andythenorth_> yes
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12:32:30  <andythenorth_> ^ ignore that
12:32:35  <FooBar> right
12:32:35  <andythenorth_> I'm stil here
12:32:49  <FooBar> I was waiting for you to come back on, to be honest :P
12:32:58  <andythenorth_> I have two things in mind to balance:
12:33:21  <andythenorth_> making it easy for players to setup an interesting game (and protecting them from bad combinations of choices)
12:33:29  <andythenorth_> (that was 1.)
12:33:37  <FooBar> that's useful
12:33:43  <andythenorth_> 2. protecting us from nightmare code and unhelpful bug reports
12:33:50  <FooBar> that's useful as well
12:34:02  <andythenorth_> plus I think it will make sense
12:34:22  <andythenorth_> so a 'mining economy' has a lot of mine orientated industries and cargos, fewer agriculture
12:35:04  <andythenorth_> the 'coastal' economy has more focus on industries related to the sea, and a smaller mix of other types
12:35:06  <FooBar> Ah, so basically there's different flavours to choose from?
12:35:13  <andythenorth_> there will be a 'FIRS extreme' for people like Neko
12:35:16  <andythenorth_> yes
12:35:43  <andythenorth_> the original game provides this through the climates.
12:36:16  <andythenorth_> the climates aren't enough for FIRS, plus for me the climates are more just a choice of what colour tiles I want to look at for 10 hours
12:36:19  <andythenorth_> and how towns grow
12:36:45  <FooBar> exactly, that applies to me as well. I usually pick 'temperate' as I think that looks better
12:37:23  <andythenorth_> I'm updating the FIRS website, it will feature example economies
12:37:35  <FooBar> You have my vote on such a setup of economies
12:37:50  <andythenorth_> the other nice aspect is we can release a new 'economy' every so often.  'New' keeps people playing imo.
12:38:15  <andythenorth_> great
12:38:22  <andythenorth_> just so you know where it's going :)
12:38:33  <FooBar> I like the sound of it, so let's go for it.
12:40:09  <FooBar> There probably must be a 'default' economy with industries close to the original TTD ones, but still with the spirit of FIRS in it. And then we can have things like the 'mining', 'coastal', etc economies
12:40:34  <andythenorth_> btw, are you busy for the forseeable future
12:40:34  <andythenorth_> ?
12:40:55  <FooBar> I have exams the next three weeks or so.
12:41:01  <FooBar> So yes, I'm kinda busy
12:41:04  <andythenorth_> FooBar: there'll be a FIRS basic (1) which will be closer to my taste and less default.  There can easily be a FIRS basic (2) if needed.  I'm not sure which will end up as default without parameters set
12:41:09  <andythenorth_> ok good luck with exams :)
12:41:17  <FooBar> After that, I /hope/ to be less busy, but no guarantees :)
12:42:22  <FooBar> Well, what I meant to illustrate is that the default must be easy for people coming from default TTD to understand. It needn't be exactly the same (as there's no point in that), but it needs to have similarities
12:42:49  <FooBar> With similar complexity of chains and the like.
12:43:05  <FooBar> More complex chains can be in different economies
12:44:02  <FooBar> We also should have a five-star difficulty rating for each economy. With the default (whatever that ends up to be) having just one star and the full thing with everything enabled having all five stars :P
12:44:32  <FooBar> Just spawning some ideas ;)
12:45:24  <FooBar> If you don't mind, I'm going to have breakfast and lunch right now. I'll be back in like 15 minutes or so.
12:45:49  <andythenorth_> ok
12:51:43  <Ammler> breakfast and lunch in 15 mins, not healthy
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13:06:43  <FooBar> back
13:07:15  <FooBar> alright, 20 mins then :P
13:12:01  <FooBar> Oh, andythenorth_, if we're to do these different economies, I'm in favour of dropping possible compatibility with other industry sets until further notice and only provide some sort of framework+documentation to allow add-ons.
13:12:16  <andythenorth_> that makes sense
13:12:37  <FooBar> For some simple industry sets it might be possible to combine them with FIRS, but large things will get way too complicated IMO
13:13:05  <FooBar> Ofcourse, compatibility with NARS  and other regearing trainsets should remain.
13:13:18  <andythenorth_> Yes
13:24:25  <Ammler> If I may, you should add a "debug" switch to be able to skip such tests for testing ;-)
13:25:41  <andythenorth_> Ammler: FooBar I am thinking a debug parameter is pretty essential
13:25:52  <andythenorth_> the debug text I use in the industry window is vital
13:26:21  <andythenorth_> that kind of thing planetmaker is very good at helping with...
13:26:29  <andythenorth_> meanwhile, I've updated the FIRS site
13:26:30  <andythenorth_>
13:26:32  <Webster> Title: TT Foundry: Pixel Creations for Open Transport Tycoon (at
13:26:36  <andythenorth_> it's much closer to something useful
13:27:21  <FooBar> nice job on the website!
13:28:30  <andythenorth_> there's more to do, but I think it will be the best way to explain the economies concept
13:29:54  <FooBar> and yes, such a debug parameter setting would be useful as some sort of override
13:30:30  <andythenorth_>
13:30:32  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development (at
13:30:36  <andythenorth_> el koeno just made a useful suggestion
13:30:53  <Ammler> hmm, maybe just create a debug grf with make
13:31:26  <andythenorth_> Ammler: that doesn't cover the case where a bug is seen while playing a game
13:31:37  <Ammler> then you load the debug grf
13:31:46  <Ammler> it should be compatible
13:31:50  <Ammler> just more output
13:31:50  <andythenorth_> loading a different grf can be massively unreliable with industries
13:32:03  <Ammler> hmm, then it isn't a debug grf
13:32:13  <andythenorth_> I think a debug switch will cover it
13:32:36  <andythenorth_> for my purposes it will run when the text cb runs
13:32:43  <andythenorth_> which is going to be sensitive to a parameter
13:32:46  <andythenorth_> (I hope)!
13:33:13  <Ammler> I just mean, the debug part could get complicated with nfo...
13:33:47  <andythenorth_> Ammler: no in my case, the debug code will run all the time anyway.  'debug' just means the values get printed to the screen
13:34:00  <andythenorth_> it will be negligible extra cpu
13:34:31  <andythenorth_> anyway, el koeno suggests that 'old industries' might just be left to close because players prefer to service new, more exciting version
13:34:37  <andythenorth_> I think there's something in that.
13:34:38  <FooBar> el koeno indeed is on to something there. "old" industries will just not hatch after a certain date and will kill themselves off automatically if no cargo is delivered. "new" industries will hatch after a certain year and users can either decide to stick to the old ones or reroute to the new ones.
13:35:06  <andythenorth_> the only thing is...we said several times, "secondary industries don't close (much)"
13:35:34  <andythenorth_> I can think of several solutions to that
13:35:43  <FooBar> Well, maybe we must unsay that then :P
13:35:57  <FooBar> Maybe it's possible to grant 'unusedl
13:35:59  <FooBar> crap
13:36:01  <andythenorth_> or allow closing after a certain date if unserviced
13:36:04  <FooBar> pressed enter too early...
13:36:09  <andythenorth_> :D
13:36:36  <andythenorth_> or allow closing after a minimum number of years unserviced (like, quite a large number of years)
13:36:45  <FooBar> Anyways, was saying that it might be possible to grant 'unused' industries a longer period before shutdown than industries that aren't served any more
13:37:27  <andythenorth_> well it's possible to store in a register when cargo was last delivered
13:37:27  <andythenorth_> we'll be doing that for a lot of industries anyway
13:38:16  <Ammler> they should stay at least 10 years or so
13:38:18  <FooBar> In that case we might be able to hook into that information
13:39:10  <Ammler> nobody complains about why power plant never expires
13:39:31  <FooBar> I hate that powerplants never expire...
13:39:35  <FooBar> :P
13:39:41  <andythenorth_> the powerplant in FIRS *will* expire
13:40:05  <FooBar> Maybe easier: if after certain date, then closedownperiod is 5 years, if not, then closedown period is 15 years.
13:40:08  <Ammler> FooBar: magic bulldozer ;-)
13:40:22  <andythenorth_> closure should be based on time unserviced then, not on quality of service (as it is now)
13:40:22  <FooBar> I hate that magic bulldozer...
13:40:24  <FooBar> :P
13:40:37  <andythenorth_> hmm no
13:40:46  <FooBar> Is it based on QoS now?
13:40:50  <andythenorth_> if an industry has poor service, it should still close
13:41:00  <andythenorth_> FooBar: let me find the specs...
13:41:09  <FooBar> don't bugger
13:41:17  <FooBar> just a yes or no is sufficient :P
13:42:00  <andythenorth_>
13:42:43  <andythenorth_> I don't actually know how the internals of the production change work.  I don't really care :)  let the players figure that out :)
13:43:21  <FooBar> heh
13:43:53  <andythenorth_> in other FIRS news....Yexo has been working on new airports, which we need if we are to avoid certain sucky situations with water industries
13:44:15  <Ammler> oh, personally, I love the complecitiy of ECS or the "planned" FIRS
13:44:38  <andythenorth_> Ammler: you can quality check FIRS Extreme then :)
13:44:42  <Ammler> I wouldn't play ECS with parameter 15 in s SP
13:44:57  <FooBar> what does 15 do?
13:45:07  <Ammler> disable all callback things
13:45:11  <Ammler> closing etc.
13:45:30  <Ammler> we use that for coop game
13:45:31  <FooBar> ah, that will leave a mess...
13:45:58  <andythenorth_> planetmaker also suggested a FIRS parameter for 'scenario mode' - no building new industries
13:46:23  <andythenorth_> This is the problem with water stations right now:
13:46:24  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - NFO: Industry on water -> with station? (at
13:46:27  <Ammler> better would be predefined places ;-)
13:46:49  <andythenorth_> Ammler: that could in theory be done - in a scenario
13:46:59  <andythenorth_> I know exactly how to code for that.
13:52:43  <Ammler> you can code industries to appear only on e.g. south east region only?
13:52:46  <andythenorth_> nope
13:53:14  <andythenorth_> what you request is similar to the survey camp role
13:53:31  <andythenorth_> so place something like the survey camp in a scenario, then make industries locate near it
13:53:55  <andythenorth_> to support different types of industries, multiple survey camp types are needed!
13:54:00  <andythenorth_> :o
13:54:12  <andythenorth_> or we could do a hack using industry layouts
13:54:13  <Ammler> but sounds cool
13:54:53  <andythenorth_> the layouts thing is barely a hack, it's actually fully supported, but I don't know how to build a specific layout in the scenario generator (except by build-demolish until you get the layout wanted)
13:55:11  <andythenorth_> (um...fully supported by nfo, not FIRS )
13:58:27  <andythenorth_> I'm going to setup a couple more economies to prove the concept.   Um, watch this channel
13:58:53  <andythenorth_> also, there might be some 'easter egg' industries, but I can't decide whether to keep them secret
14:19:23  <Ammler> :-)
14:19:37  <Ammler> quite hard on a opensource project :-P
14:20:15  <Ammler> well, a lot people never will follow the development but might use the release
14:26:44  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #708 (New): polish language file <>
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14:48:53  <andythenorth_> FooBar:
14:48:54  <Webster> Title: TT Foundry: Pixel Creations for Open Transport Tycoon (at
14:48:58  <andythenorth_> this kind of shows what I have in mind
14:49:11  <andythenorth_> the presentation could be's all just words at the moment
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14:55:21  <andythenorth> FooBar: I also think I know how to handle industry closure
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14:57:24  <FooBar> good for you :P
14:57:50  <FooBar> anyhoe, I think that economy idea would work quite well indeed
14:59:34  <Ammler> shouldn't you mainly drop the default industries from basic
15:01:49  <Ammler> and maybe a FIRS type, which uses the default cargos only.
15:03:10  <andythenorth> Ammler: you would rather see even fewer default industries?
15:03:28  <Ammler> for the basic set, yes.
15:03:49  <andythenorth> Suggestions?  It's quite easy to actually build and try :)
15:04:17  <Ammler> no steel, no grain
15:04:52  <Ammler> and the industries to it
15:05:21  <andythenorth> :o
15:05:24  <Ammler> best would be no default at all, but that might not be possible :-)
15:05:30  * andythenorth is shocked by Ammler's radical ideas :)
15:05:54  <andythenorth> Ammler is a punk
15:06:37  <andythenorth> Ammler get me a list somehow of cargos and industries and we can try it?
15:06:52  <Ammler> the other idea is to use only cargos from default and the industries to it
15:07:22  <Ammler> so this basic set would be compatible to all newgrfs
15:07:44  <andythenorth> All can be tried.  The only costs are: time to check we didn't break chains, and possible confusion for players.
15:08:27  <Ammler> for me it is hard to decide/suggest such things, I depend on 2 different views
15:08:44  <Ammler> my personal SP and the #openttdcoop view
15:08:45  <andythenorth> Ammler: give me a few minutes.  I'll make "FIRS Extreme" and then you can copy and paste the cargos and industries, then edit a list for me?
15:09:37  <Ammler> for openttdcoop, we once made a game with all ECS, but parameter 15
15:09:44  <andythenorth>
15:09:45  <Webster> Title: TT Foundry: Pixel Creations for Open Transport Tycoon (at
15:09:56  <Ammler> so from 150 games, around 10 games are with new industries
15:10:43  <andythenorth> quite a small ratio
15:11:02  <Ammler> yes, maybe 2 ECS and 5 PBI
15:11:09  <Ammler> and 3 alpine
15:11:31  <Ammler> well, I wild guess
15:11:39  <Ammler> a*
15:12:24  <Ammler> "we" decided that newindustries aren't useable for us.
15:14:05  <Ammler> andythenorth: did you read about George who told about automatic "filter" for cargos?
15:14:26  <andythenorth> yes.  It appears to work - I tested it.
15:14:41  <andythenorth> so I'm not concerned about that
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15:15:18  <Ammler> so you can basically include all industries and just make a parameter filter for cargos?
15:17:29  <andythenorth> Ammler: maybe.  I don't know if that's the best situation.  Also, the code might work, but cargo chains could be broken...
15:20:00  <Ammler> as you don't have a release yet, you shoudn't/can't mark industries/cargos as depreciated ;-)
15:20:54  <Ammler> !s/mark/flag/ (sorry for highlight :-P
15:20:56  <andythenorth> yes...I should tidy that up somehow.
15:22:10  <FooBar> I think action7-ing unused industries might be best. Having them 'hidden' might imply the possibility to change the setting in a running game, which I don't want to support
15:23:03  <andythenorth> I agree with FooBar they would be action 7-ed
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15:23:21  <DJNekkid> Hyronymus :D
15:23:22  <Hyronymus> hello
15:23:41  <Hyronymus> I just registerd on the devzone
15:23:53  <FooBar> good for you. And welcome! :P
15:24:02  <Hyronymus> har har
15:24:07  <FooBar> :)
15:25:06  <Hyronymus> ich habe planne, grosse planne
15:25:08  <Hyronymus> :P
15:25:50  <FooBar> I read something about 32bpp...
15:26:37  <Hyronymus> yeah
15:26:45  <Hyronymus> not going for a "localised" set though
15:28:33  <FooBar> I'd plug it onto the 2CC set. That's a really nice codebase (which you need anyways). And ofcourse releasing the 32bbp version under GPL license. That way if someone wants to do a localised version, there's a nice start readily provided :)
15:29:19  <Hyronymus> ypu
15:29:23  <Hyronymus> uhm, yup
15:29:29  * andythenorth afk
15:35:07  <Ammler> you mean Action9 ;-)
15:37:11  <FooBar> well action9 is basically the same as action7, but different
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15:37:34  <Ammler> you need Action9 to use it on a running game, afaik
15:38:18  <Ammler> Action7 is more for version openttd specific things
15:39:06  <Ammler> hmm, n
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15:40:16  <Ammler> andythenorth: shall I enable the non-ssl bouncer for you ;-)
15:40:56  <andythenorth> Ammler: it would be nice
15:44:32  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 2cc train set - Revision 436: Fix: Forgot to add name to the ICM <> || 2cc train set - Revision 435: Add: ICM mu... It were apparently not added yet <> || 2cc train set - Revision 434: Fix: GL8 didnt have shortening, added/fixed <> || Redmine - Revision 3141: update tags <> || Redmine - Revision 3140: Copyright updated (#4542). <> || Redmine - Revision 3139: Set alignment for inline images in formatted text. <> || Redmine - Revision 3133: Merged r3295 from trunk. <> || Redmine - Revision 3138: CHANGELOG update. <> || Redmine - Revision 3132: Merged r3293 from trunk. <> || Redmine - Revision 3137: Updated doc. <>
15:46:20  <Ammler> andythenorth: setup done: irc://
15:46:45  <Ammler> do you know your credentials, still?
15:47:04  <andythenorth> no
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15:58:37  <andythenorth_> hi hi
15:58:40  <Ammler> welcome andythenorth_ :-)
15:59:42  <Ammler> now, you can try, e.g. if you rejoin, it will paste some lines so you shouldn't miss something because of your unstalb eline
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16:00:37  <Ammler> oh :-(
16:01:11  *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
16:01:27  <Ammler> why did you part?
16:01:38  <andythenorth_> testing
16:01:47  <andythenorth_> seems to work btw
16:01:50  <andythenorth_> :)
16:01:57  <Ammler> I meant disconnecting with your client from the bouncer
16:02:50  <Ammler> @services op
16:02:50  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Webster
16:02:54  <Ammler> @topic remove -1
16:02:54  *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on | Logs: | Downloads log: | ATTENTION: Server changed IP, you might get warnings about it: Fingerprint:"
16:02:56  * Hirundo ponders creating a new devzone project for airport grfs
16:02:57  <andythenorth_> wanted to try rejoining with the client gui, not /join
16:03:23  <andythenorth_> Hirundo: what is your thinking?
16:04:47  <Hirundo> Basically to create a set of tiles and templates
16:05:06  <Hirundo> So writing a new airport doesn't involve reinventing the wheel
16:05:45  <Hirundo> with templates/#defines as in 2cc, FIRS etc
16:06:06  <andythenorth_> will that play nice with the state machine?
16:06:10  <andythenorth_> I guess so
16:07:04  * andythenorth_ really has no idea though!
16:10:20  <Hirundo> It'll have to wait, though, I'm busy enough already
16:15:38  <Ammler> @topic remove -1
16:15:38  *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on | Logs: | Downloads log:"
16:25:41  <andythenorth_> I have a favour to ask of someone who would cut out and compress some pngs of the FIRS cargo icons for me...
16:27:22  <Rubidium> would `cat png | cut -b 1,10 | gzip > png_cut_n_compressed` suffice? :)
16:27:39  <Rubidium> yeah, I'll be flamed for using a pipe too much
16:28:47  <Ammler> andythenorth_: btw., you can configure your bouncer settings with the same address, just http instead irc
16:29:06  <andythenorth_> Rubidium: dunno, does it work?
16:29:31  <Ammler> I already setup a pretty good setup...
16:29:48  <Rubidium> it works, but probably not in the way you want it to wokr
16:30:21  <andythenorth_> :P
16:34:14  <Ammler> andythenorth_: you are still connected directly, else it would automatically rename to the master nick
16:34:27  <andythenorth_> ??
16:35:00  <Ammler> [17:32] [Whois] andythenorth is (Andy)
16:35:44  <Ammler> or maybe a ghost...
16:39:36  <andythenorth_> :(
16:41:02  * andythenorth_ waves bye to "the Animal Feed Plant".  Stupid circular industry chain 
16:41:36  <andythenorth_> grain - feed plant -> produce more grain from the same farm.  umm.
16:42:45  *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth
17:16:26  * FooBar laughs at producing grain from grain...
17:17:58  *** Hyronymus is now known as Hyr|LeChef
17:19:06  * FooBar says bye!
17:19:08  *** FooBar has quit IRC
17:19:47  <andythenorth> Bye!
17:19:58  <PeterT> bai
17:36:26  <andythenorth> planetmaker: hai hai
17:52:47  <planetmaker> moin andy
17:53:16  <planetmaker> andythenorth: even
18:38:53  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've been thinking a lot about FIRS 'economies'
18:38:58  <andythenorth>
18:39:00  <Webster> Title: TT Foundry: Pixel Creations for Open Transport Tycoon (at
18:39:14  <andythenorth> ^^ is a list format I'm working.  It's work in progress
18:42:43  <planetmaker> andythenorth: something when reading the forums: you don't plan to close down serviced industries (like guano mine)?
18:42:53  <Ammler> andythenorth: why do you mix temperate and arctic but not tropic?
18:43:06  <andythenorth> Ammler: there is no difference currently between Arctic and Temperate
18:43:18  <andythenorth> I am trying to keep climate variation to a minimum
18:43:24  <andythenorth> it makes for more robust code
18:43:38  <andythenorth> I am open to suggestions though
18:44:03  <Ammler> well, it would be another variation instead of using parameters
18:44:20  <Ammler> i.e. use temperate for basic and more advance version for arctic
18:44:50  <andythenorth> Ammler: I am thinking about it like this: 9 economies x 2 climates = 18 things to test.  9 economies x 3 climates = 27 things to test
18:44:56  <andythenorth> variation == bad
18:45:01  <andythenorth> but variation is necessary :)
18:45:21  <andythenorth> planetmaker: (I see your comment above)
18:45:25  <Ammler> andythenorth: well, if you do it with parameters, you will get the same effect
18:45:44  <andythenorth> Ammler: ideally I would have no climates, then just 9 economies
18:45:57  <Ammler> yes
18:46:07  <andythenorth> but sugar cane and cotton don't grow so much above the snowline :)
18:46:15  <Ammler> I wouldn't work with climates at all
18:47:01  <Ammler> just use different econimies and than in a later step, you could enable different economics as default in the climas
18:47:58  <planetmaker> hm, actually a good idea. Just define n economies. And some are simply not available in climate XX or YY
18:48:27  <Ammler> climas are also something like difficult levels with default
18:48:35  <planetmaker> Like farming might not be available in arctic, if it includes some non-arctic industries
18:49:08  <andythenorth> I like the following suggestion: don't work with climates at all
18:49:30  <andythenorth> Bear in mind for example that two of my 'economies' are 'Mountain' and 'Tropical Island'
18:49:32  <Ammler> didn't I suggest that
18:49:47  <andythenorth> Yes
18:49:49  <andythenorth> :D
18:49:53  <andythenorth> Prize for Ammler
18:49:56  <Ammler> :-P
18:50:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yeah. "Tropical island" obviously is unsuitable for arcic... :-P
18:50:15  <planetmaker> Nobel price in newgrf proposals?
18:50:15  <andythenorth> but if players want to use those tiles...that's their choice
18:50:22  <Ammler> but no necessary for temperate
18:50:32  <andythenorth> climate = tiles + more or less annoying town behaviour
18:51:25  <andythenorth> Also Ammler - changing the 'default' basic FIRS later per climate is maybe nice.  As long as it doesn't confuse players.
18:51:36  <Ammler> planetmaker: what do you think about my other proposal, make a economic mode with default cargos only?
18:52:37  <andythenorth> planetmaker: for comparison, here's my proposal for FIRS Basic:
18:52:48  <andythenorth> there was an alternative, but it sucked
18:54:57  <planetmaker> Ammler: default cargoes = cargoes w/o newgrfs?
18:55:12  <Ammler> yes
18:55:26  <planetmaker> actually: interesting idea.
18:55:29  <Ammler> basically just other industries
18:55:32  <planetmaker> Not sure though, how feasable it is
18:55:53  <planetmaker> But I like it. Woul make FIRS playable w/o other newgrfs.
18:56:02  <Ammler> it would make it compatible to all newgrfs
18:56:02  <planetmaker> *would
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18:56:50  <andythenorth> it's feasible...I think you'd find it added not much.   Or at least nothing that Pikka hasn't already done.  But if you want to try and work it out......
18:56:52  <Webster> Title: TT Foundry: Pixel Creations for Open Transport Tycoon (at
18:57:03  <andythenorth> that's your list to start with :)
18:57:09  <Ammler> :-)
18:57:32  <Ammler> maybe replace the supply cargos with goods?
18:57:50  <Ammler> or pax
18:58:17  <planetmaker> food is acceptable
18:58:25  *** Hyr|LeChef is now known as Hyronymus
18:58:26  <planetmaker> goods... well, the usuall stuff.
18:58:34  <DJNekkid> there is always the "new cargos old wagons"
18:58:50  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: sure. But the question was "without other newgrf" :-)
18:58:59  <DJNekkid> oki... :)
18:59:13  <Ammler> or with every other newgf
18:59:17  <planetmaker> only as _one_ option among many
18:59:25  <planetmaker> selectable via grf parameters
18:59:48  <Ammler> as the least possible minimum :-)
19:00:08  <andythenorth> Well see if you can come up with a list of industries then :)
19:00:16  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's easy to edit firs.pnfo to test this in practice
19:00:32  <andythenorth> although it would now be useful to start templating industries per economy as well :0
19:00:34  <andythenorth> :)
19:00:57  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
19:01:18  <Ammler> the industries itself shouldn't care about economy
19:01:36  <planetmaker> well. Difficult, if you want the "basic" option.
19:01:46  <planetmaker> Or you'd need at least re-arange some cargos
19:01:52  <planetmaker> Well. Feasable.
19:02:07  <Ammler> then it needs to care about cargo
19:02:31  <Ammler> if no farm supply use goods
19:02:51  <planetmaker> that's bound to get very confusing.
19:03:15  <planetmaker> what an industry accepts should not vary. At least not much. Maybe an additional cargo or so
19:03:20  <planetmaker> same goes for supplies
19:05:19  <andythenorth> planetmaker: there will be a few, very small, carefully done variations to industry acceptance / production
19:05:24  <andythenorth> but otherwise nothing
19:05:38  <andythenorth> I do think the production code would handle it ok actually though
19:08:05  <andythenorth> Ammler: planetmaker are we *definite* about not working with climates?
19:08:22  <andythenorth> I ask as I'm about to send some web code to an early grave...
19:08:29  <planetmaker> andythenorth: fine with me.
19:08:32  <andythenorth> and I *don't* have much vcs :D
19:08:42  <Ammler> climas is just another econmy type
19:08:47  <planetmaker> yeah
19:09:09  <planetmaker> economy types are sufficient. They offer more variation than climates
19:09:18  <andythenorth> ok.  back in a bit.  I have to go make some changes :)
19:09:26  <planetmaker> And economy types availability - that can be climate specific ;-)
19:09:59  <andythenorth> could be.  Did you see my suggestion for massively improved setting of parameters?
19:10:33  <andythenorth> I think users would be annoyed to choose an economy then be told it doesn't work with climate x *after* they started the game
19:11:20  <planetmaker> Well... just make the parameter meaning a climate dependent function :-)
19:11:36  <planetmaker> a list of param value = economy
19:11:40  <planetmaker> for each climate
19:11:46  <andythenorth> hmm....this might cause major vehicle support issues
19:11:56  <andythenorth> if a vehicle set has climate-specific support...
19:12:07  <andythenorth> most don't, it's not how cargo-translation tables are supposed to work
19:12:25  <planetmaker> uh? How so? It's the vehicle set which makes its vehicles look different
19:12:45  <andythenorth> I believe some sets (CanRail) have a climate specific cargo translation table
19:13:09  * andythenorth files that under "even if true, not my problem" 
19:13:27  * andythenorth takes a knife to climate stuff
19:13:36  <andythenorth> (only on the website)
19:14:28  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes. But the climate-specific CTT of a vehicle set should not cause a problem for the set, least for the industry set author
19:14:47  <andythenorth> it's not just industries, there are climate-specific cargos
19:15:04  <andythenorth> but I think it will be fine
19:16:00  <andythenorth> the only troubling item will be the Water chain
19:16:04  <andythenorth> pain in the arse
19:16:08  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes. But cargos are defined by the industry. And that's where cargo classes come into play.
19:16:41  <planetmaker> As train set author you need to make sure to have appropriate graphics and wagon availability depending upon the classes.
19:16:53  <planetmaker> As a bonus you make it specific for those cargos defined in the CTT.
19:17:44  <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes.  I'm just thinking of OzTrans.  But he's promised full FIRS support anyway.
19:17:56  <planetmaker> :-)
19:18:06  <planetmaker> Yes, that's nice :-)
19:18:10  <Ammler> andythenorth: I would make a economic type like "arctic" or "tropic" or
19:18:26  <planetmaker> hm... no, I wouldn't :-)
19:18:50  <Ammler> well, it is a combination of other types ;-)
19:18:51  <andythenorth> me neither.  It needs to be subtly different
19:19:56  <Ammler> don't see, why you need to differ economy and clima
19:23:44  <andythenorth> hmm.  using a web based cms to design the set is handy.  If it's hard to make the cms show the set, the set will also be hard to code :)
19:24:04  <planetmaker> Ammler: exactly. And that poses the question: why name an economy after a climate in the first place?
19:24:40  <planetmaker> just name the economies appropriately to what they reflect. Just "tropcial" etc is boring
19:24:48  <planetmaker> and quite non-descriptive
19:24:58  <andythenorth> Tropical Island is more fun :)
19:25:27  <andythenorth> I suppose we could start screwing with stuff like snowline as well
19:25:35  <andythenorth> And base tiles...and town placement.
19:25:41  <andythenorth> And then we've remade the game :o
19:25:48  <planetmaker> having like "1001 nights" and "Father Christmas home" is more fun ;-)
19:26:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I wouldn't put a snow line into FIRS. Bad style IMO to modify other parts of the game.
19:26:41  <andythenorth> yes, quite right
19:26:51  <andythenorth> And also...more work :P
19:26:56  <planetmaker> Besides, you can just copy&paste my snowline newgrf ;-)
19:27:17  <planetmaker> hm... I didn't put online that code so far... oh well.
19:27:33  <planetmaker> it's GPL'ed anyway and despite.
19:28:12  * andythenorth finishes setting all industries and cargos to appear in all climates
19:28:41  <planetmaker> And now it needs to be made a function of "economy model" :-P
19:29:28  <andythenorth> I haven't modified any code yet, just the website
19:29:31  <planetmaker> hm... do we have a coffee plantation?
19:29:59  <andythenorth> no, but...
19:30:06  *** Madis has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
19:30:32  * andythenorth python treats a tuple as a string if there's only one item.  probably a good reason, but it broke my site :|
19:30:53  *** Madis has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
19:30:55  <andythenorth> "One Climate"
19:30:57  <Webster> Title: TT Foundry: Pixel Creations for Open Transport Tycoon (at
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19:32:20  <planetmaker> ah... found the translation. I think of an economy model like "The Thousand Nights and a Night"
19:32:29  <planetmaker> like situated around arabia and alike
19:32:45  <planetmaker> available in... temperate and tropical :-)
19:32:49  <planetmaker> maybe only tropical
19:32:53  <DJNekkid> WTF! all my files are gone!
19:33:02  <andythenorth> wasn't me
19:33:44  <DJNekkid> hmm
19:33:47  <planetmaker> it's also not in my wastebin
19:34:10  <DJNekkid> i did a hg up 289 to recover a lost file
19:34:18  <DJNekkid> then hg up to get "back"
19:34:26  <DJNekkid> and now it saies it is 440
19:34:31  <DJNekkid> but it have little or no files in it
19:34:49  <Hyronymus> DJNekkid, planetmaker: did you read my PM
19:34:49  <planetmaker> eh?
19:34:55  <planetmaker> Hyronymus: yes.
19:34:56  <Hyronymus> it probably only went to one of you
19:34:58  <planetmaker> Welcome aboard
19:35:06  <Hyronymus> ty
19:35:06  <planetmaker> :-)
19:35:25  <planetmaker> I need your ssh key for write access
19:35:43  <planetmaker> you're already registered at the devzone, I assume?
19:35:47  <Hyronymus> I have
19:35:55  <Hyronymus> am now looking at the 2cc project
19:36:04  <Hyronymus> oh, right
19:36:06  <planetmaker> :-) It's heavily templated NFO ;-)
19:36:07  <Hyronymus> the key
19:37:01  <planetmaker> I guess it's ok, to add you as manager, too :-)
19:37:03  <Hyronymus> installing tortoisehg
19:37:23  <planetmaker> ^ DJNekkid ?
19:37:32  <DJNekkid> sure...
19:37:35  <planetmaker> done
19:37:40  <DJNekkid> im just trying to "find" my files again
19:38:22  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: "my files" = repo files or other files which were not versioned?
19:38:50  <DJNekkid> repo files
19:39:01  <planetmaker> try another hg up maybe?
19:39:27  <planetmaker> what does hg tip tell you?
19:39:56  <DJNekkid> 440!
19:40:20  <planetmaker> what 440?
19:40:28  <planetmaker> oh revision. sorry
19:41:14  <DJNekkid> hg up 440 gives me an conflict!
19:41:24  <planetmaker> might happen.
19:41:28  <planetmaker> what conflict?
19:41:40  <DJNekkid> something it apparently cant fix itself
19:41:54  <planetmaker> what you *might* try is: hg up null and then hg up
19:42:27  <planetmaker> and if you don't mind all files purged that are not versioned (be aware!) use -C as an option to both
19:43:09  <DJNekkid> apparently it gets the same conflict
19:43:18  <DJNekkid> and kdiff3 opens
19:44:01  <planetmaker> yes, you probably changed *something* in r289 or so.
19:44:16  <planetmaker> or had uncommited changes before going to r289
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19:44:31  <planetmaker> then that might happen.
19:44:43  <planetmaker> if you're fine with removing all those changes: hg revert *
19:44:47  <planetmaker> and hg up again
19:45:11  <planetmaker> btw, "that error" does not tell me anything ;-)
19:45:19  <DJNekkid> hehe
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19:49:45  <DJNekkid> it seems like it worked out
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19:59:56  <Hyronymus> planetmaker: I have a public key
20:00:54  *** PeterT has quit IRC
20:01:50  <Ammler> post it somewhere curl-able
20:01:55  * andythenorth contemplates adding 'economy' as a url query parameter to various views
20:02:06  <Ammler> or paste here :-)
20:02:51  <Hyronymus> curl-able?
20:03:52  <Ammler> or files section at devzone
20:04:38  <Ammler> only the public key, hope that is obvious ;-)
20:04:53  <planetmaker> Ammler: only *nix gurus know what curl is ;-)
20:05:23  <planetmaker> for other people it is just a "Wirbel" ;-). For others it's even a differential operator
20:06:46  <planetmaker> also written as &nabla; &times;
20:12:35  <Hyronymus> sorry, busy with a small connection problem
20:12:51  <Hyronymus> right, so I need to paste the public key
20:15:08  <Hyronymus> ssh-rsa AAAAB3NzaC1yc2EAAAABJQAAAIEAgn05xqri2zSoJITTbRrJxS2zP2fX/meN3aqJx2DT7t7VO4RCetObzf9FwsW4vffy0dXlLHNnDqX2Jxl6QziUANZozUFkfIm6xNQVO9WtVTHVq3rA97UoC+N6wCW9ZMbLtVvCnlwNCaGz3vIb+mk7HJ2L5cv9w+nHGGesV4zA1PE= rsa-key-20100110
20:16:36  <planetmaker> ok, written and authorized
20:16:42  <Ammler> :-)
20:16:54  <planetmaker> Hyronymus: do you have the 2cctrainset repo already on your machine.
20:16:55  <Ammler> just liked to ask, if you do or if I shall :-P
20:17:05  <planetmaker> hehe
20:17:24  <Hyronymus> no, I haven't
20:17:57  <planetmaker> ok, clone it first.
20:18:02  <planetmaker> Try the key for that:
20:18:07  <Hyronymus> sounds sci~fi
20:18:57  <planetmaker> hg clone ssh:// 2cctrainset
20:19:25  <planetmaker> if everything is setup it should fetch the repo using your key.
20:19:35  <planetmaker> if not... there'll be an error :-P
20:19:37  <DJNekkid> god damn, that resolve-thing
20:23:59  <planetmaker> Hyronymus: does that work?
20:24:06  <Hyronymus> not yet
20:24:13  <Hyronymus> have to setup tortoise properly
20:24:25  <planetmaker> ah, ok
20:27:34  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 2cc train set - Revision 441: Fix: Ice3 now works as intended <> || 2cc train set - Revision 440: Fix: CE4-4 had same problem with same fix (just 03 and not 01) <> || 2cc train set - Revision 439: Fix: WDM had same issue, same fix <> || 2cc train set - Revision 438: Fix: NMBS 7800 werent shortened as it were supposed to, added #defi... <> || 2cc train set - Revision 437: Fix: the Serbian class 811 lacked name and P-list text <>
20:30:15  <Hyronymus> planetmaker: I get an error message
20:30:40  <Hyronymus> saying I cannot trust the computer I connect to is the computer it should be
20:31:05  <DJNekkid> just say "yes", you want to connect
20:31:09  <Hyronymus> bla bla "Store key in cacche"
20:31:13  <Hyronymus> ok
20:31:33  <Hyronymus> failed to clone
20:31:52  <DJNekkid> why? :P
20:32:01  <Hyronymus> remote: Illegal repository '/hg-repos/2cctrainset'
20:32:29  <DJNekkid> hg clone ssh://
20:34:08  <DJNekkid> that line works atleast for me
20:34:12  <DJNekkid> btw
20:34:16  <planetmaker> and me :-)
20:34:20  <DJNekkid> you might want to add a dir behind that
20:34:29  <DJNekkid> hg clone ssh:// <dir-you-want-the-repo-in>
20:34:34  <Hyronymus> it works now
20:34:42  <planetmaker> not needed, but I always do... nice! :-)
20:36:15  <Ammler> [21:18] <planetmaker> hg clone ssh:// 2cctrainset <-- maybe the 2 "/" caused the first failed try?
20:36:34  <planetmaker> eh?
20:36:40  <planetmaker> oh
20:36:44  <planetmaker> sorry
20:37:12  <planetmaker> missed that. Bad c&p error of mine
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20:39:13  <Hyronymus> cloned succesfully
20:39:23  <DJNekkid> goodie
20:39:36  <DJNekkid> do you have msys/mingw installed?
20:39:54  <DJNekkid> (as i assume you drive windows)
20:39:55  <planetmaker> ah, right :-) DJNekkid knows that much better than myself :-)
20:40:51  <andythenorth> planetmaker: Ammler minor progress on FIRS site, the title of each economy is now a link, click it for more detail on industries...
20:40:51  <andythenorth>
20:40:52  <Webster> Title: TT Foundry: Pixel Creations for Open Transport Tycoon (at
20:41:17  <Hyronymus> I haven't got anything else installed and I "drive" widdows
20:41:34  <DJNekkid> then you need msys/mingw as well...
20:42:04  <DJNekkid> there is this page...
20:42:08  <planetmaker> widows? :-D
20:42:24  * planetmaker quickly hides and doesn't want other widows to appear.
20:42:49  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 2cc train set - Revision 442: Fix: White errors on the tanker <>
20:42:51  <DJNekkid> lol
20:43:54  <DJNekkid> Hyronymus:
20:43:54  <DJNekkid>
20:44:11  <Hyronymus> am readin that and found the links to said programs
20:48:59  <Ammler> andythenorth: basic has still too many :-)
20:49:21  <Ammler> or will there be a "light" with fewer?
20:49:29  <andythenorth> basic === light
20:49:43  <andythenorth> well cut some out then.  I'm open to suggestions.  I'd say cut the Fishing Harbour, but posting screenies of that made people very excited
20:50:03  <DJNekkid> doesnt that "only" produce food directly?
20:50:11  <Ammler> well, if I play FIRS, I would use extreme ;-)
20:50:19  <andythenorth> DJNekkid: yes, it's a bit weird.  It has to be supplied with stuff though
20:50:27  <andythenorth> let me add an industry count to those pages...
20:51:12  <Ammler> maybe remove the oil chain?
20:51:48  <planetmaker> honestly Ammler make an overall "basic" vector as you proposed and present that instead of single proposals :-)
20:51:59  <planetmaker> That's much better than ... yes, those :-)
20:52:16  <planetmaker> and yes, I agree in principle with you that 'basic' still is quite big.
20:53:17  <DJNekkid> but basic should, imho, be more then just vanilla ttd
20:53:22  <DJNekkid> thats what we have vanilla for
20:53:26  <Ammler> IMO not
20:53:29  <andythenorth> Vanilla is done
20:53:48  <Ammler> it should be other than vanilla, not more
20:54:00  <andythenorth> Vanilla and or PBI.  It's been done to death, surely?
20:54:14  <andythenorth> I guess I've played a *lot* of PBI.  perspectives may vary
20:54:17  <DJNekkid> i agree andy
20:54:21  <Ammler> PBI is already too much for some ;-)
20:54:31  <andythenorth> gee, let me just recompress some images, this is scary slow
20:54:41  <Ammler> well, not too many indsutries, but too much micromanagement
20:55:15  <DJNekkid> but dont have that micromanagement...
20:55:43  <DJNekkid> but firs dont ...
21:01:54  <Hyronymus> ok, I have everything installed
21:02:06  <planetmaker> then 'make' :-)
21:02:07  <DJNekkid> go to the 2cc-dir and try "make"
21:02:12  <planetmaker> in the 2ccdir :-)
21:02:16  <Hyronymus> ok
21:02:49  <DJNekkid> btw, you might want to find a file called "makefile.local"
21:02:52  <DJNekkid> and add this line
21:02:52  <DJNekkid> INSTALLDIR = c:/data/openttd/data
21:03:04  <DJNekkid> atleast, if that is where your .grf's are :P
21:03:40  <Hyronymus> where would that file be
21:03:51  <planetmaker> where Makefile is. E.g. in the 2cctrain dir
21:03:52  <DJNekkid> in the 2cc dir
21:04:02  <planetmaker> there's a Makefile.sample
21:04:13  <planetmaker> you might copy that and uncomment the appropriate line
21:05:59  <Hyronymus> did that
21:06:10  <DJNekkid> now you can "make install"
21:06:11  <Hyronymus> now I'm in the 2cc set dir
21:06:21  <DJNekkid> and it will copy the file into the openttd data-dir
21:06:23  <planetmaker> then 'make install' will copy the latest grf into your grf dir as specified there
21:06:29  <planetmaker> meh... slow :-)
21:06:31  <DJNekkid> you can also "make remake install"
21:06:48  <DJNekkid> and that builds the grf from scratch, and install it to your data-dir
21:07:01  <Hyronymus> I can't find the make install command
21:07:02  <Hyronymus> :p
21:07:08  <Hyronymus> I'm a n00b
21:07:12  <planetmaker> it will call itself something like 2cctrainset-nightly-rXXX
21:07:20  <planetmaker> hm... make is part of MinGW
21:07:30  <planetmaker> all from command line
21:07:42  <PeterT> Hyronymus: Are you doing that 32bpp Dutch Trainset?
21:07:53  <planetmaker> just type that in your command line. If make is not found, you have to adjust your path settings
21:07:57  <Hyronymus> I will be doing it, PeterT
21:08:06  <PeterT> ok, I'll be waiting
21:08:44  <Hyronymus> hmm
21:08:55  * Hyronymus is positive he put all things in dev
21:09:14  <planetmaker> Hyronymus: yes... but maybe some sub dir?
21:09:35  <planetmaker> IIRC there's a bin dir coming with mingw...
21:09:36  <Hyronymus> c:\dev\
21:10:01  <planetmaker> have a look at its wiki. It explains it... or at least it worked for me, going by their defaults when I setup that stuff in a VM a year ago
21:10:06  <Hyronymus> oh, I think I know the problem
21:10:16  <Hyronymus> there is a 1.0 dir
21:10:38  <Hyronymus> with msys
21:11:24  <Hyronymus> are path's case sensitive?
21:11:40  <planetmaker> might be. at least on all systems except windows
21:11:57  <planetmaker> ^ also a hint for future commits ;-)
21:12:06  <andythenorth> all of you using a proper browser?  i.e. webkit or gecko based?
21:12:12  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: might remember those issues initially, too ;-)
21:12:45  <DJNekkid> indeed i do :)
21:12:48  <planetmaker> andythenorth: meaning? Safari / Moz?
21:12:49  <DJNekkid> it takes a bit getting used to
21:12:54  <andythenorth> yes
21:13:11  <planetmaker> well... yes? Why?
21:13:11  <andythenorth> safari or FF / Moz
21:13:20  <andythenorth> nah, just fooling with some rounded corners
21:13:29  <andythenorth> not necessary, but slightly restful
21:16:34  <planetmaker> hehe. I remember when I was kinda surprised to find an internet explorer on a True64 machine ;-)
21:16:37  <Hyronymus> can't find what I did wrong
21:16:55  <Hyronymus> tortoise isn't in the dev dir but in program files
21:17:03  <Hyronymus> but in the path it's correctly mentioed
21:17:20  <DJNekkid> you might need a reboot after setting the path
21:17:26  <Hyronymus> ok
21:17:29  <Hyronymus> brb then
21:17:34  *** Hyronymus has quit IRC
21:17:57  <planetmaker> maybe it was also IRIX on a SGI onyx... dunno anymore
21:19:45  <planetmaker> he... true64 seems kinda common. But in the times of 16 bit systems it was great :-)
21:20:45  *** Hyronymus has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
21:21:00  <Hyronymus> still no make
21:21:01  <planetmaker> wb :-)
21:21:05  <planetmaker> hm...
21:21:17  <Hyronymus> can you tell me exactly what to do in the 2cc dir
21:21:29  <DJNekkid> open a command line
21:21:33  <DJNekkid> start->run->cmd
21:21:36  <DJNekkid> if windows xp
21:21:41  <Hyronymus> vista
21:21:45  <DJNekkid> start -> search -> cmd if vista/7
21:21:54  <Hyronymus> but I have a command line
21:22:04  <DJNekkid> cd <to 2cc dir>
21:22:10  <DJNekkid> make
21:23:11  <Hyronymus> ooh
21:23:14  <Hyronymus> now it does work
21:23:23  <DJNekkid> :D
21:24:25  <Hyronymus> 572kb
21:24:38  <Hyronymus> w00t
21:24:39  <planetmaker> size of the grf? Might well be
21:24:57  <DJNekkid> sounds about right
21:26:41  <Hyronymus> it says v442
21:27:04  <DJNekkid> not r442? :)
21:27:08  <planetmaker> :-P
21:27:28  <Hyronymus> :P
21:27:41  <Hyronymus> thx for your patience
21:27:43  <planetmaker> which means that we made 442 changes to it since it was started / imported here
21:27:47  <Hyronymus> I'm really new to this
21:27:59  <planetmaker> no worries, you're doing well :-)
21:28:27  <Ammler> Hyronymus: now, you can practice update and compile again
21:28:30  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 2cc train set - Revision 443: Change: Cleaning up the english languagefile abit :) <>
21:28:35  <Ammler> as tip is r443
21:28:56  <planetmaker> hehe. Probably time difference ;-)
21:29:03  <Hyronymus> is there a Dutch languagefile too
21:29:09  <planetmaker> yup
21:29:15  <Hyronymus> hmm
21:29:18  <Hyronymus> let's ape it
21:29:18  <welshdragon> planetmaker: how do i get LZO?
21:29:23  <Hyronymus> *rape
21:29:30  <Hyronymus> nah, I'll experiment a bit
21:29:31  <DJNekkid> btw Hyronymus, you might need to "hg pull -u"
21:29:40  <PeterT> planetmaker: For mac, he means.
21:29:50  <DJNekkid> as i've done a update since you cloned it
21:29:51  <planetmaker> welshdragon: uhm... ?
21:30:03  <Ammler> sounds like a compress tiny
21:30:24  <welshdragon> planetmaker: i need the LZO Library for OSX 10.5
21:30:32  <welshdragon> any ideas how to get it?
21:30:57  <planetmaker> hm... I guess I downloaded it and then make install. Maybe macports has it, too. I don't know anymore.
21:31:02  <planetmaker> where do you need it for?
21:31:05  <Hyronymus> I can pull from the repository explorer, right
21:31:08  <planetmaker> OpenTTD has it inbuilt kinda
21:31:16  <Ammler> Hyronymus: just be aware, that you should always hg pull && hg update (= hg pull -u), if you like to check something or commit
21:31:22  <welshdragon> planetmaker: i need it for openttd
21:31:34  <welshdragon> ./make says it cannot be found
21:31:34  <PeterT> for compiling, OpenTTD
21:31:40  <welshdragon> yes
21:31:40  <PeterT> <-- Is that not it?
21:31:41  <Webster> Title: Fink - Package Database - Package lzo2 (Real-time data compression library) (at
21:31:43  <Hyronymus> ok  Ammler
21:32:07  <welshdragon> it is
21:32:13  <welshdragon> but that requires compiling
21:32:14  <Ammler> the more you keep your repo up2date, the less you need to merge
21:32:19  <planetmaker> welshdragon: yes, it does
21:32:25  <planetmaker> port install lzo
21:32:36  <Hyronymus> Ammler: I can choose in the repository explorer: after pull: <update>
21:32:42  <Hyronymus> is that the same as the command line
21:32:53  <Ammler> yes, sounds like
21:32:55  <planetmaker> or lzop or lzo2
21:32:59  <Hyronymus> ok
21:33:12  <Ammler> Hyronymus: type hg parent
21:33:18  <Hyronymus> where :P
21:33:19  <welshdragon> ty planetmaker
21:33:24  <planetmaker> ingo: ~/Downloads> port list | grep 'lzo'
21:33:26  <planetmaker> lzo2                           @2.03           archivers/lzo2
21:33:27  <planetmaker> lzo                            @1.08           devel/lzo
21:33:29  <planetmaker> lzop                           @1.01           sysutils/lzop^
21:33:30  <planetmaker> ^ I have those installed via macports
21:33:33  <Ammler> Hyronymus: console
21:33:36  <Hyronymus> k
21:33:44  <Ammler> then you see, if it worked, if tag is tip
21:33:59  <Ammler> if tag != tip, you need to update
21:34:11  <planetmaker> Hyronymus: there *might* also be for most of those things GUI equivalents. But don't ask me or Ammler ;-)
21:34:16  <planetmaker> we can only tell you command line
21:34:24  <Hyronymus> ok
21:34:37  <Ammler> but the tortoisehg seems a nice tool
21:34:42  <planetmaker> yep
21:34:44  <Ammler> I didn't hear bad things about.
21:34:58  <planetmaker> yeah, seems to be nicely and actively maintained
21:35:01  <Ammler> I should install it here too
21:35:12  <Ammler> as it isn't windows only.
21:35:42  <Hyronymus> tag:         tip
21:35:44  <Hyronymus> user:        DJ Nekkid
21:35:46  <Hyronymus> date:        Sun Jan 10 21:30:16 2010 +0100
21:35:47  <Hyronymus> summary:     Fix: White errors on the tanker
21:36:02  <DJNekkid> "hg pull -u"
21:36:31  <Hyronymus> tag:         tip
21:36:33  <Hyronymus> user:        DJ Nekkid
21:36:34  <Hyronymus> date:        Sun Jan 10 21:30:16 2010 +0100
21:36:36  <Hyronymus> summary:     Fix: White errors on the tanker
21:36:37  <Hyronymus> gah
21:36:37  <planetmaker> Ammler: it's not windows only? Then I should look at it, too
21:36:51  <Hyronymus> it updated
21:37:07  <Ammler> no, it isn't and specially the grphics gui could help to see how to merge
21:37:15  <Ammler> or if you work with branches etc.
21:38:26  <Ammler>
21:38:27  <Webster> Title: tortoisehg / stable / wiki / Home — (at
21:40:32  <Ammler> looks like there is also a unofficial support for macs
21:55:50  <Hyronymus> right, I'm off to bed
21:55:54  <Hyronymus> cya
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22:22:44  <welshdragon> planetmaker: any idea why Waiting for lock on /opt/local/var/macports/build/_opt_local_var_macports_sources_rsync.macports.org_release_ports_textproc_libiconv/work/.macports.libiconv.state
22:22:44  <welshdragon> would take 30 minutes?
22:24:09  *** welshdragon has quit IRC
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22:47:25  *** PeterT has quit IRC
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22:51:20  <welshdragon> hi, if you want to help users with compiling/patching OpenTTD, or you need help yourself: #compile is the place to be!
23:00:23  <andythenorth> good night
23:00:24  *** andythenorth has left #openttdcoop.devzone
23:07:55  <Ammler> welshdragon: don't think there is a special channel needed for that ;-)
23:08:48  <welshdragon> Ammler: it's been created anyway
23:09:38  <Ammler> there is no problem asking such questions here or in #openttd
23:10:22  <Ammler> there is btw. also no need to link people from #openttd to here
23:10:36  <Ammler> as everyone here is also on the other channel
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23:15:12  <welshdragon> Ammler: it's just that some of the developers don't seem very obliging with help
23:18:00  <Ammler> welshdragon: oh well, don't take that personally
23:22:28  <Ammler> if you like to create a subchannels you should prefix those with #openttd, like #openttd.compile or such
23:22:50  <PeterT> welshdragon: What Ammler said is a better idea
23:23:04  <PeterT> Ammler: If we do that, shouldn't we ask #openttders?
23:23:15  <Ammler> why?
23:23:26  <Ammler> don't think, they care
23:23:38  <Ammler> we used that in some places too, like
23:24:53  <Ammler> I guess, there is a rule on this network, theoretically you need to make them subchannels, if those aren't own projects
23:25:38  <PeterT> ok, i just told welshdragon
23:26:07  <Ammler> well, not sure, just sometime, someone talked about that
23:41:10  <PeterT> Ammle: We moved
23:54:10  <welshdragon> yep
23:54:19  <welshdragon> #openttd.compile is our home

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