Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 30th January 2010:
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00:02:49  <dragonhorseboy> just had to ask anyway but could the dev site be used to host a patch grf that also just works fine in ottd as well?
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00:06:37  <Ammler> dragonhorseboy: dunno what you mean, but I would say, yeah.
00:07:20  <Ammler> (As long as it has a license to make derivate work...)
00:13:50  <dragonhorseboy> hm ok
00:13:55  <dragonhorseboy> just had to wonder, thanks
00:32:57  <dragonhorseboy> hmm what to do now as usual :/
00:38:37  <dragonhorseboy> hmm... A Million Moving Lorries Entering Russia
00:38:42  * dragonhorseboy just had to play with nicks
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16:43:44  <dragonhorseboy> someone made me thinking of a good point .. exactly what differs a ottd-only grf from a patch+ottd grf? (well I could only think of unlimited vehicle ids for one but thats about it)
17:08:12  <planetmaker> that's basically it.
17:08:31  <planetmaker> there are other subtleties, but alas
17:08:41  <planetmaker> OpenTTD doesn't support objects.
17:09:23  <planetmaker> and there are a few other properties which are not supported or implemented slightly different.
17:09:30  <planetmaker> but those are not show stoppers
17:10:27  <dragonhorseboy> thanks, so it was what I thought it was. basically just ids limit
17:10:45  <dragonhorseboy> well I'm off for now so bye ;)
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17:39:48  <DJNekkid> a few CB's are supported by either one of them, CB36 dont support "everything" in patch
17:40:27  <planetmaker> he's not here anymore
17:40:35  <planetmaker> and hello :-)
17:41:05  <planetmaker> long intro dates come to my mind, too. Not sure whether they are supported everywhere.
17:41:09  <planetmaker> Also additional bridges
17:41:33  <planetmaker> and hopefully soon realistic acceleration for RV ;-)
17:42:56  <Hirundo> which TTDP already has, IIRC
17:43:12  <planetmaker> sure?
17:44:10  <DJNekkid> patch have it
17:44:14  <planetmaker> oh, ok
17:44:22  <DJNekkid> even for trains :)
17:44:30  <planetmaker> yeah... makes sense. The properties needed are all defined
17:44:38  * planetmaker just looked it up
17:44:44  <Hirundo>
17:45:14  <planetmaker> he... "power in 10hp". Oh well :-)
17:45:34  <DJNekkid> rather few vehicles with more then 2500 hp :)
17:45:51  <planetmaker> :-P
17:45:52  <Rubidium> those HEQS vehicles?
17:45:53  <Hirundo> how to express the 'deux chevaux' then?
17:46:49  <Rubidium> just weight *= 5 :)
17:47:00  <andythenorth> Hirundo: I think zephyris has provided the deux chevaux quite literally
17:47:23  <Hirundo> :)
17:55:02  <planetmaker> oh, TTDP even has more than the number of default bridges.
17:55:54  <planetmaker> hm... or?
17:56:05  <planetmaker> it's indicated as "since rUnknown"...
17:56:23  <planetmaker> yes. hasn't.
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17:59:45  <dragonhorseboy> hey
18:03:47  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: other differences:
18:03:49  <planetmaker> Ships, property 1B (sort purchase list)
18:03:49  <planetmaker> Planes, property 1B (sort purchase list)
18:03:49  <planetmaker> Bridges, IDs 0B, 0C
18:03:49  <planetmaker> Houses, properties 21,22 (Long year, zero based)
18:03:49  <planetmaker> Houses, 512 HouseIDs (OpenTTD) vs. 255 HouseIDs (TTDP) throughout all active newgrfs.
18:03:50  <planetmaker> General, property 11 (GRFID override for engines)
18:03:52  <planetmaker> General, property 12 (Rail type translation table)
18:04:11  <planetmaker> and the access to base costs
18:05:08  <planetmaker> that's what OpenTTD has more. The other way around is poorly documented
18:05:29  <planetmaker> access to base costs is just different
18:05:36  <dragonhorseboy> re the that as in variety of town buildings (excluding bank/etc) right?
18:05:59  <planetmaker> yes. Houses. Not industries. Bank = industry
18:07:32  <dragonhorseboy> ok got that
18:07:57  <planetmaker> Personally I'd be rather interested in a list what OpenTTD can NOT do, though
18:08:25  <planetmaker> Some callbacks are handled by one or the other differently or exclusively, too.
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18:09:39  <dragonhorseboy> hmm well I do know of this but it relates more to gameplay than to what you can code tho
18:10:18  <planetmaker> well. Yes. But that's not the important thing when programming newgrfs ;-)
18:10:22  <dragonhorseboy> I'm not too worried about the callbacks just as long as the basic train ones works (such as the powered wagons)
18:10:28  <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker so damned right :P
18:10:32  <planetmaker> more important is CB availability and property and feature availability
18:11:54  <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker thanks for that list you pasted down tho
18:13:33  <planetmaker> it's a simple copy&paste from the TTDP wiki. Made in 5 minutes...
18:13:42  <dragonhorseboy> oh lol
18:13:42  <planetmaker> just looking at the description of the action0s
18:14:28  <dragonhorseboy> well I'll have to admit 255 houses is rather a lot of variety to be had ;) (well..for someone who doesn't play pax-only metro style maps)
18:15:49  <dragonhorseboy> I guess TTRS probably could easily expand up to 512 house slots tho (many generation of houses from 1800's ones up to futuristic 2050's ones)
18:15:51  <planetmaker> with some programming tricks you can have thousands of different houses with just a hand full of IDs
18:16:05  <dragonhorseboy> true that
18:16:06  <planetmaker> so it's indeed not much of a limitation.
18:16:16  <dragonhorseboy> I've actually been working on something a bit similar with trains
18:16:33  <planetmaker> But having the IDs at hand makes it WAY easier. Otherwise one would have to resort to lengthy action1/2/3 chains
18:16:35  <dragonhorseboy> several slightly different locos as one single id thanks to regear+liveryrefit
18:16:39  <planetmaker> and possibly different animation states
18:16:53  <dragonhorseboy> true, especially outdoor elevators or water foundatins, etc
18:17:00  <dragonhorseboy> foundations* blah
18:18:29  * dragonhorseboy is still trying to figure out how regearing actually works (so far..seem to be getting there)
18:19:55  <DJNekkid> i can tell you :)
18:20:20  <DJNekkid> its a combination of Livery refit (usually new gfx, but not this time)
18:20:24  <DJNekkid> and callback 36
18:20:28  <DJNekkid> (change properties)
18:22:46  <DJNekkid> or if you wich, combination of callback 15 and 36 :)
18:23:05  <dragonhorseboy> ah curse you djnekkid *whacks you with repeative 36 calls* :P
18:23:11  <dragonhorseboy> that makes things a lot easier hehhee
18:24:26  <andythenorth> cement: doesn't make sense to deliver it to a quarry, right?
18:24:35  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth nope
18:24:42  <andythenorth> does make sense to deliver it to towns, right?
18:24:56  <dragonhorseboy> after all a quarry only needs cement from the very start for the new foundations for their buildings but after its up and running it needs none
18:25:00  <planetmaker> nope, andythenorth
18:25:09  <planetmaker> yes, town sounds good
18:25:10  <dragonhorseboy> to town? hmm .. well towns do need cement to fix roads over time so why not
18:25:16  <andythenorth> so cement would be better as Goods, rather than Engineering Supplies
18:25:18  <dragonhorseboy> or even new buildings either
18:25:28  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth hmm yeah I guess
18:25:28  <andythenorth> (cement is not actually a cargo)
18:25:31  <planetmaker> good point for that, andythenorth :-)
18:26:10  <planetmaker> he... cement as required cargo for town growth. Now _that_ would make sense
18:26:16  <dragonhorseboy> that reminds me...I need to finish bugging this LUGG cargo type
18:26:33  <andythenorth> town growth might be an addition later.
18:26:42  <dragonhorseboy> hey djnekkid I just realized something...
18:26:55  <andythenorth> Or more likely a cargo 'Construction Materials'
18:28:06  <planetmaker> andythenorth, sure, not now :-) But... maybe I should add it as an idea somewhere.
18:28:16  <planetmaker> Do we have an idea thread / topic somewhere?
18:28:25  <dragonhorseboy> can or can't ships have livery refit?
18:28:26  <andythenorth> planetmaker: for FIRS, or generally?
18:28:30  <planetmaker> Not worth a separate issue IMO. At least not now. FIRS
18:28:38  <andythenorth> add it as a FIRS issue then ;)
18:28:48  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: ships....I've never checked
18:28:53  <andythenorth> I don't understand livery refits
18:29:07  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth its alternative sprites for same vehicle basically
18:29:10  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy, I would wonder if they couldn't.
18:29:19  <dragonhorseboy> or just like eg your one diesel locomotive being red instead of blue default colour
18:29:50  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: I was looking for something related so ships can show player's choice of cargo graphics (containers for example)
18:29:51  <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker hmm could be an interesting way to skirt the limit amount of ship ids .. I might have to knock a crude test grf and see what goes
18:30:03  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: let me know how you get on....
18:30:17  <andythenorth> ship IDs not so limited in openttd btw
18:30:43  <planetmaker> hehe. quite not so.
18:30:54  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth..ok .. callback 36 only has cost/speed/capacity variables .. nothing for cargo sprites or livery refit...
18:31:13  <dragonhorseboy> BUT action0ships mentions cargo refittable
18:31:33  <planetmaker> yes. and colour remapping
18:31:44  <planetmaker> hm... but livery?
18:32:06  <DJNekkid> callback 15 is livery names, isnt it? or is that 19?
18:32:12  <DJNekkid> im semi-afk btw
18:32:15  <DJNekkid> and gone in 15ish
18:32:29  <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker well obviously a ship that carries container isn't the same flat deck as one that carries coal or other loose loads lower in the hull ;)
18:32:30  <planetmaker> k. Enjoy the club ;-)
18:32:46  <dragonhorseboy> so it'll have to be some livery refit for sure
18:33:21  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: for what it's worth, I'm hoping to template a solution to that for FISH.
18:33:36  <andythenorth> or we could ask for livery refit support
18:33:38  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 563: Change: improved copy for Manufacturing Supplies in... <> || FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 564: Feature: Cement Plant now produces Goods instead of... <>
18:34:29  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth heh ok tell me what you find out if you ever do ok? ;) (I'm a bit busy working toward rails and buildings alone right now for my planned grf)
18:34:43  <dragonhorseboy> and anyway I'm going off for a while .. see all of you later on ok? :P
18:34:46  <andythenorth> what does your grf do :)
18:36:04  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth its kinda a model train grf (I know how that sounds but eh .. its for fun anyway)
18:36:22  <andythenorth> sounds fine, that's kind of what the game is good at.
18:36:25  <dragonhorseboy> perhaps I coudl tell you more later ok? :P
18:36:28  <andythenorth> suer
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18:36:30  <andythenorth> sure
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18:41:21  <DJNekkid> andythenorth: dont need livery refits for "other cargo" ?
18:41:30  <DJNekkid> a normal action2-3 chain would suffice?
18:41:59  <DJNekkid> VarAction2 variable 47 ?
18:42:26  <DJNekkid> can both use classes and cargo-number
18:42:33  <andythenorth> DJNekkid: yes, that's what I figured.  I don't understand purpose of livery refit except for train wagons to match the engine
18:43:10  <DJNekkid> Different gfx from different RL companies?
18:43:50  <andythenorth> hmmm not applicable to ships
18:44:01  <andythenorth> well it could be, but I don't care.
18:44:11  <andythenorth> regular varaction 2 will do
18:48:41  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #729 (New): town growth cargos <>
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20:09:53  <planetmaker> Ammler: Cron <ottdc@localhost> cd /home/ottdc/hg-repos/trunk/ && hg pull >/dev/null 2>&1 && hg push 1>/dev/null
20:10:01  <planetmaker> note: unsynced remote changes!
20:10:11  <planetmaker> did anyone meddle with those repos there?
20:21:58  <Ammler> IS2 is kinda broken...
20:32:11  <planetmaker> hm...
20:34:50  <PeterT> Where is the magic_bulldozer_rcon.diff located?
20:38:25  <planetmaker> on the server
20:40:29  <Ammler> you would need to ask SmatZ for those patches...
20:40:45  <Ammler> the patches which are public, are public...
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21:00:12  * andythenorth wonders about having oil refineries produce some output cargo without needing oil delivered
21:03:31  <planetmaker> uhm... waste?
21:03:45  <planetmaker> but why should they?
21:04:00  <andythenorth> because moving oil around is boring.  and should be done by pipeline
21:05:43  <andythenorth> hmmm...count number of oil wells (w), count number of oil refineries (r).  produce output according to w/r
21:06:22  <andythenorth> fix all oil wells to produce 128t / month
21:06:22  <planetmaker> I disagree, andythenorth
21:06:45  <andythenorth> any alternative suggestions? :D
21:06:45  <planetmaker> also that would be annoying nor ... well realistic nor fun
21:07:00  <planetmaker> Well. Treat oil like any other cargo?
21:07:23  <andythenorth> could do.
21:07:26  <planetmaker> Oil is transported by the big tankers to refineries
21:07:49  <planetmaker> just recall exon valdez and other ships who made that crystal clear
21:08:46  * andythenorth wonders why oil wells seem so boring 
21:08:51  <andythenorth> (in the default game)
21:09:14  <planetmaker> hm, do they?
21:09:20  <andythenorth> maybe it's just me
21:09:21  <planetmaker> They close early.
21:09:24  <andythenorth> yes
21:09:30  <andythenorth> and they usually have low output
21:09:48  <andythenorth> it seems there's no point trying to provide good service
21:09:49  <planetmaker> which I don't understand. But yes, that's how it is.
21:10:04  <andythenorth> oil rigs I normally service.  Oil wells, I never bother
21:10:20  <planetmaker> yes, true. Same here
21:10:37  <andythenorth> so improved oil wells might solve my issue
21:11:54  <andythenorth> hmmm....that means I need to add Oil to FIRS basic.  I'm trying to keep the cargo count down :o
21:14:16  <andythenorth> is it just too weird for refineries to produce without oil input?
21:15:12  <planetmaker> well. Then there's no point for them IMO
21:16:46  <andythenorth> need a source of chemicals and fuel oil...
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21:46:33  <dragonhorseboy> hey :p
21:54:33  <andythenorth> hi hi
21:55:07  <dragonhorseboy> anyway I checked the whole callbacks list and action0industries but still kinda left wondering about one quick question .. can you set the min/maximum a particular industry can output or all you can really set is how often there's a chance the production rate would change?
21:55:18  <dragonhorseboy> hey andythenorth ;)
21:55:48  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: there is pretty much complete control over industry production
21:59:10  <dragonhorseboy> oh ok I guess I'll keep looking a bit more
22:05:55  <dragonhorseboy> hmm thanks anyhow andythenorth..guess I don't seem to be looking in right place now but I'll try find it another time :p
22:09:11  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth one quick question for you tho
22:10:01  <dragonhorseboy> there's no limit to the industry size...just that drawing one that needs 24x20 tiles for example would seem quite awark on any kind of smaller maps or with many mountains?
22:10:04  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: let me know if you need tips
22:14:20  * dragonhorseboy couldn't imagine who really would anyway :P
22:14:42  <dragonhorseboy> hmm..maybe except if it was a huge open quarry that was ignoring EPA laws ;)
22:18:40  <dragonhorseboy> anyway smaller question, callback 1D bit 1 could be used to make the house output a different cargo than its usual four?
22:18:57  <dragonhorseboy> thats what it seem to read like to me but hum
22:20:21  <dragonhorseboy> the text further down the page only lists 1E (or re acceptance instead) so...yeah
22:24:29  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: the cb is 2E
22:24:30  <andythenorth>
22:27:50  <dragonhorseboy> ty
22:29:54  <andythenorth> far as I can see a house tile could produce up to 256 types of cargo
22:30:11  <andythenorth> there's no cargo limit mentioned, only a limit on the loop
22:30:54  <andythenorth> what do you want them to produce?   out of interest...
22:32:15  <planetmaker> the easy way is to supply only one cargo. But with a few more lines, what andy says
22:34:54  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth heh .. one building producing 20+ different cargos at once might be a bit overkilling but anyway...
22:35:28  <andythenorth> PAX, mail...what else is there?
22:35:41  <dragonhorseboy> the reason I asked was because of the LUGG (as in LUGaGes) cargo type concept I've been sketching on for a while. its just an interesting idea for these baggage cars on local trains
22:36:11  <dragonhorseboy> carrying mail just didn't quite seem right to me so was just playing around a bit (its for towar dmy own train grf yeah)
22:37:09  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: packages / parcels
22:37:13  <dragonhorseboy> eg one luggage load per 4-6 passengers or some rough ratio like that. enough to fill three or more branch coaches and just one single matching baggage car
22:37:40  <dragonhorseboy> hmm was that a name suggestion or did you already have that defined in your FIRS table?
22:38:28  <andythenorth> I had packaging - boxes, crates, bottles, tins etc
22:38:34  <andythenorth> but I've killed it
22:38:42  <planetmaker> :-)
22:38:44  <planetmaker> KISS
22:39:04  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth ah .. guess I'll continue with my concept for my own use then ty anyhow
22:39:35  <andythenorth> good luck!
22:39:44  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth on the *other* hand tho I'm going to borrow MILK and FRUT from you ;)
22:39:57  <andythenorth> np
22:40:03  <andythenorth> what else do you have in mind?
22:40:27  <dragonhorseboy> seem better than the generic 'food' default cargo type and beside when you think about it.. you do not put milk in unrefridged containers
22:40:54  <dragonhorseboy> what else? hmm .. none at the moment .. I'm just more of working on the trains aspect first before finally looking at what industries and cargo types I'll actually need
22:41:15  <dragonhorseboy> the luggage item did come up early thou (especially when I was working on adding the baggage wagons to tracking list)
22:42:17  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I do have two suggestions you could consider at a future date tho...
22:42:21  <andythenorth> are you planning to change house acceptance?  I decided that was one task too far for FIRS.  That's one reason why towns just accept 'food'
22:44:14  <planetmaker> house acceptance are IMO out-of-bounds for an industry set
22:44:34  <planetmaker> it could be task of a brother or sister project dealing with houses
22:44:37  <dragonhorseboy> SHEP and PIGS cargo types for certain trainsets .. before you get me wrong you can fit a lot more pigs into one single 2-floor van rather than the amount of cattle (to me it always seem that "livestock" really means cattle alone, the sprite icon suggests so too) into an alike single-floor car
22:45:44  <dragonhorseboy> and sheeps are .. well .. narrow gauge trains were sometimes too narrow to even carry cattle at all but they didn't have problem carrying the shorter legs of sheeps. or as per D&RGW (colorado railroad, now a tourist business instead)
22:46:33  <dragonhorseboy> I know some people might not like it but PIGS could be sent to butchers for FOOD (really PORK but lets keep it economized here)
22:46:58  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: when planning...remember that industries only have 3 input and 2 input!  That screwed some of my original plans and means it's easier to just use cargos like 'Livestock'
22:47:03  <dragonhorseboy> and as for SHEP .. well .. either WOOL and/or FOOD .. I'm not sure what would exactly fit
22:47:20  <andythenorth> oops, typo ^^ 2 *output*
22:47:49  <andythenorth> if you plan carefully you can probably make it work
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22:48:17  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth yeah the 3in-2out sometimes can be just a *bit* annoying to design around early on at times
22:48:24  <dragonhorseboy> at least I don't even have any yet .. hopefully ;)
22:58:42  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I guess there is probably this... in: oil, engineering supplies, water .. out: fuel oil, chemicals
22:58:49  <dragonhorseboy> just a thought for you ;)
22:59:06  <dragonhorseboy> (the water for to cool down all the know :P )
22:59:13  <andythenorth> water is interesting
22:59:22  <dragonhorseboy> and 'chemicals' for the lack of diesel/gas/keroscene/etc you know
22:59:46  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth well without water the boilers would have to be kept a bit warm to avoid setting building on fire
22:59:53  <dragonhorseboy> so its a plausible gameplay thought :P
23:00:00  <dragonhorseboy> and warmer boilers = less output
23:00:37  <andythenorth> ...I've just cut engineering supplies from the refinery as fuel oil can be converted to engineering supplies...I'm eliminating some circular routes for such cargos
23:00:54  <andythenorth> fuel oil -> engineering supplies -> even more fuel oil :o
23:01:24  <dragonhorseboy> so to put it one way.. oil+water to the oil industry .. then fuel oil sent off to somewhere else to be made into plastic .. then plastic sent off to factory to make store goods (as in plain GOOD anyway) .. then goods sent off to the town
23:01:47  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth ah drats :P
23:02:07  <dragonhorseboy> oh well it was an idea seeing these oil refinery are very complicated machenries
23:02:13  <dragonhorseboy> err..mind my spelling ;)
23:02:32  <andythenorth> it was a good idea, but it hits some gameplay limitations :)
23:05:12  <dragonhorseboy> yeah
23:05:16  <dragonhorseboy> hmm let me think for a sec ;)
23:05:31  <dragonhorseboy> oh wait I know..
23:05:49  <dragonhorseboy> salt? blah
23:07:14  <andythenorth> I think I'm just going to include oil and be done with it :)  even though oil is boring
23:09:44  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth hmm could I make a 1920s industry suggestion? :) (considering it wouldn't last for long)
23:09:53  * dragonhorseboy is being a bit silly
23:09:54  <andythenorth> yes?
23:11:14  <dragonhorseboy> in: survey supplies + food + water ... out: coal (+ waste optional?)
23:11:43  <dragonhorseboy> or can you say early tunnel mining days especially where lot of nearby timbers were used for the structure instead of modern means now
23:12:09  <dragonhorseboy> and .. well .. no water+food = who can even work!
23:12:14  * dragonhorseboy hehs at that silly idea
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23:17:40  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth seriously tho what about a non-town Furniture industry and/or town 1x1 Workshop store .. both accept lumber but the former one could probably optionally output GOOD for the lack of more defined cargo type
23:17:53  <dragonhorseboy> but if you got enough places to send lumber problem
23:23:39  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I'll stop suggesting things now :p what you doing? ;)
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