Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 14th February 2010:
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03:09:50  <DJNekkid> hi again you sleeping guys!
03:10:10  <DJNekkid> if anyone were wondering, i had a great gig...
03:10:20  <PeterT> I was wondering all night
03:10:29  <PeterT> Now I can sleep properly
03:10:37  <DJNekkid> and now, its canada vs slovakia or something on the telly!
03:10:48  <DJNekkid> hehe PeterT ! :)
03:10:57  <PeterT> telly?
03:11:01  <DJNekkid> TV
03:11:10  <PeterT> You're not australian, are you?
03:11:25  <DJNekkid> norwegian :) But i pick ut slang here and there :)
03:11:34  <PeterT> ahh
03:12:00  <DJNekkid> but they say "telly" (ish) in england/UK as well no?
03:13:03  <DJNekkid> either way, we have "home and away" on TV from 16 to 1630 or something :)
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04:00:02  <DJNekkid> this is almost one of thoose "Epic fails" ...
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09:11:01  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 582: Fix: Aluminium Plant snow sprites were truncated <> || Redmine - Revision 3266: update tags <> || Redmine - Revision 3265: Changes SubversionAdapter to use ActiveSupport::XmlMini API for XML pars... <> || Redmine - Revision 3264: Adds requirement for ruby version and tells that Rails is included in do... <> || Redmine - Revision 3263: Adds projects links (#4812). <> || Redmine - Revision 3262: Removes a GIF image. <> || Redmine - Revision 3261: Minifies PNG images (#4819). <>
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10:35:36  <DJNekkid> are you there and awake planetmaker?
10:36:12  <planetmaker> zzzZZZzzz ;-)
10:36:35  <DJNekkid> i made a proposal for the 2cc sets new tracks...
10:36:40  <DJNekkid> posted it on the 2cc wiki...
10:36:58  <planetmaker> link?
10:37:10  <DJNekkid> :P
10:37:31  <planetmaker> haha. I thought you had it open and could spare me click-click-click ;-)
10:37:31  <DJNekkid> hold on
10:38:09  <planetmaker> but you mean the bug tracker?
10:38:22  <DJNekkid>
10:38:45  <planetmaker> ah. I think it makes more sense in the bug tracker though
10:39:26  <DJNekkid> can put it there as well...
10:39:42  <planetmaker> then dev can be tracked there better :-) And patches attached etc
10:40:09  <planetmaker> concerning the proposal: I think it's going a bit too far ;-)
10:40:57  <planetmaker> RAIL: usual non-electrified, no re-definition necessary as max speed set by engines (slow DMU etc)
10:41:34  <planetmaker> ELRL: usual electrified. For high speed trains (TGV, ICE,...). max speed = unlimited (as default)
10:42:16  <planetmaker> E160 and E120 make sense IMO. And 3RDR for metro tracks
10:42:26  <planetmaker> and possibly MGLV / TRPD for maglev
10:42:33  <planetmaker> more becomes tedious IMO
10:42:52  <planetmaker> 3RDR is max speed = 120, too, I'd say
10:43:05  <DJNekkid> sure, why not :)
10:43:18  <DJNekkid> issue 743 btw
10:43:24  <planetmaker> and might be compatible for some vehicles
10:44:01  <planetmaker> and MONO is compatible to 3RDR for backward compatibility reasons
10:44:16  <planetmaker> my currently not-so-thoroughly thought-through ideas :-)
10:44:19  <ODM> 3RDR? third rail metro?:O
10:44:29  <planetmaker> yes
10:44:42  <DJNekkid> but the 2cc v.2.0 isnt backwards capable to 1.x either way ...
10:44:42  <ODM> ok^^
10:45:25  <DJNekkid> so, all in all you dont want the E230 ?
10:46:46  <DJNekkid> my reasons for including it ... There are a range of vehicles between 160 and 230kmh, and i dont think they should need the overexpensive high speed tracks...
10:47:03  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: not to v1. But to existing rails compatibility
10:47:04  <DJNekkid> as building for 230 is less expensive then for 350 (or whatever:))
10:47:29  <planetmaker> well... sure, that's right, but then it gets complicated ;-)
10:48:06  <planetmaker> I'm not yet quite sure exactly *how* we tell an engine to like several track types.
10:48:30  <DJNekkid> me either, but that is _probably_ not a problem...
10:48:33  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 2cc train set - Feature #743 (New): New Tracks - Proposal <>
10:48:46  <planetmaker> I *think* that we nearly don't have to do much. Definitions have to be provided by track newgrfs anyway
10:48:54  <planetmaker> And they define prices etc pp.
10:49:17  <planetmaker> and trains can go on any compatible type. And RAIL and ELRL are always compatible to all cheaper types
10:49:30  <planetmaker> so there's nothing we need to change for those trains anyway
10:49:30  <DJNekkid> yes...
10:49:35  <DJNekkid> i dont think so either
10:50:16  <DJNekkid> but as i wrote, i personally think we should include theese in the trainset, as well as provide a standalone newgrf
10:50:26  <planetmaker> Only the metro tracks might need touch: look for the presence of the ... yeah a 3RDL newgrf and make them 3RDL, if so, otherwise MONORAIL
10:50:27  <DJNekkid> or what do you think?
10:50:28  <planetmaker> or alike
10:50:39  <planetmaker> Oh, you wrote "include"?
10:50:44  <planetmaker> I'm strictly against that ;-)
10:51:13  <planetmaker> monolithic newgrf suck
10:51:25  <planetmaker> and are easier to break and have less flexibility
10:51:38  <DJNekkid> true...
10:51:46  <planetmaker> especially as this feature is so new that some innovations are to be expected in that area
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10:52:33  <DJNekkid> i guess...
10:54:00  <DJNekkid> i guess we keep the current cost-thingy, and disable it if "new tracks" is present...
10:55:11  <DJNekkid> i think im gonna start writeing this :)
10:56:29  <DJNekkid> atleast the action0 parts...
10:56:48  <planetmaker> Nah, don't include action0 for tracks
10:56:58  <planetmaker> nowhere
10:57:10  <DJNekkid> i dont mean in the 2cc set
10:57:14  <DJNekkid> but as a new set...
10:57:15  <planetmaker> ah :-)
10:57:33  <DJNekkid> where we probably should make a new project on "the zone" :)
10:58:50  <planetmaker> of course ;-)
10:59:26  <ODM> 2cc ftw btw
10:59:36  <DJNekkid> :D
10:59:55  <DJNekkid> yea, im getting more and more eager to finish the 2.0
11:00:10  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
11:00:24  <ODM> definately my favourite, but i am biased towards dutch trains
11:00:42  <planetmaker> I think the only thing which 2cctrainset really needs is to check for Metro tracks next generation
11:00:59  <planetmaker> And change the metro trains action0 depending on its presence to either MONO or 3RDR
11:01:14  <planetmaker> That's what I would think makes sense. As mono != 3rdr
11:24:58  <DJNekkid> planetmaker: to "set" the traintype, you use a "rail translation table" :)
11:25:23  <planetmaker> yes, I know. I wrote the newgrf documentation :-P
11:25:33  <DJNekkid> aha...
11:26:31  <planetmaker> but still it only allows to set ONE track type per engine
11:26:37  <DJNekkid> yes...
11:27:03  <planetmaker> so the rail type translation table has to be re-defined depending upon the presence of the metro tracks or not
11:27:10  <planetmaker> simple action7 actually, I think
11:27:22  <DJNekkid> certainly
11:27:23  <planetmaker> 'simple'
11:27:26  <planetmaker> ;-)
11:28:05  <DJNekkid> but, with some proper "magic"
11:28:18  <DJNekkid> or ... hmm
11:28:24  <DJNekkid> i need to think about that
11:28:54  <DJNekkid> but, should we also have a 120kmh 3rd + catenary type?
11:28:59  <DJNekkid> to make mixed stations ... ?
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11:29:53  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: but that's task of the rail types newgrf. Not of our
11:30:04  <planetmaker> rail types define their compatible types. Not the engines
11:30:24  <DJNekkid> yes...
11:30:45  <DJNekkid> but im thinking about about both right now:)
11:31:49  <planetmaker> Yes, it'd make sense to have a track type which is compatible to both, 3rdr and elrl
11:32:13  <planetmaker> but only in the rail type newgrf ;-)
11:32:20  <DJNekkid> yes ofcourse...
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15:46:37  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 32bpp-extra - Revision 15: Add: include doc files in the zipfile <>
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16:06:34  <DJNekkid> hey planetmaker ... it _is_ possible to change the costs of track to rather insane values...
16:06:46  <DJNekkid> i.e. what i suggested regarding Maglev Tracks
16:08:20  <planetmaker> hm, not that I've seen a property 0 railtypes cost
16:08:51  <DJNekkid> well, there are a cost in the action0 railtype
16:09:00  <DJNekkid> but that is 0x00 -> 0xFF
16:09:11  <DJNekkid> but, i can change the basecost of laying track
16:09:21  <planetmaker> oh, construction cost. Missed it. And didn't remember ;-)
16:09:44  <planetmaker> well. I'd change the base costs only for difficulty level. Everything
16:10:01  <DJNekkid> any suggestions on what maglev track cost would be?
16:10:02  <planetmaker> And set the relative level by the action0 property. Both in the rail types newgrf
16:10:20  <DJNekkid> i've had wet dreams about this!
16:11:08  <planetmaker> Estimates are 17.000.000€ / kilometer of two-tracked transrapid
16:11:16  <planetmaker> (in 1998)
16:12:42  <DJNekkid> and the same for high speed rail would be?
16:12:48  <DJNekkid> if it is in the same table
16:12:53  <planetmaker> vehicles are approx 3x more expensive.
16:13:09  <DJNekkid> yea, sounds reasonable...
16:13:40  <planetmaker> oh. track costs are the same as ICE
16:14:00  <DJNekkid> well, noone saies we have to be realistic :)
16:14:04  <planetmaker>
16:14:58  <DJNekkid> but; the maglev engines are _usually_ entering the game at a late stage, when one usually have lots of cash, and i think its fun to have something to spend it on ...
16:15:17  <planetmaker> I agree there
16:15:20  <DJNekkid> and rather expensive maglev tracks, with rather inexpensive running costs would be cool ... imho
16:15:23  <planetmaker> 10x ICE tracks
16:15:36  <DJNekkid> 15kish/tile ?
16:15:50  <planetmaker> 30 :-P
16:15:51  <DJNekkid> on "normal" building costs
16:16:03  <DJNekkid> my feeling were also in the 30k area :)
16:16:15  <planetmaker> dunno, what ARE the building costs for the rest?
16:16:21  <DJNekkid> not set yet ...
16:16:31  <planetmaker> so, that'd have to be relative.
16:16:38  <DJNekkid> right now do we have the freedom to do just about what we want...
16:16:49  <planetmaker> :-) Yeah!
16:16:51  <DJNekkid> but i've put up some numbers in that proposal i made
16:17:25  <planetmaker> Did you already create a trackset?
16:17:28  <planetmaker> Shall I?
16:17:36  <planetmaker> I mean project?
16:17:37  <DJNekkid> 1500£ for high speed track, 1000£ for 230kmh track, 750 for 160kmh track, and 500 for  100/120kmh
16:17:48  <DJNekkid> no i didnt... feel free
16:17:57  <planetmaker> that's... not much increase honestly
16:18:08  <DJNekkid> with 1/3rd price on non electrified track
16:18:19  <planetmaker> That sounds ok
16:18:35  <planetmaker> I'd make it steeper:
16:18:40  <DJNekkid> i.e. the slow non-el tracks should cost the same as the default ones
16:19:22  <planetmaker> 100€ for 100, 500€ for 160 km/h, 3000 for 230km/h, 10000€ for 500km/h rail and 30000€ for maglev
16:19:35  <planetmaker> and 1/3 cost for non electrified
16:19:45  <planetmaker> so a *3 scaling
16:19:58  <Rubidium> oh, steam maglev for 10000 :)
16:20:08  <planetmaker> yeah ;-)
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16:20:28  <Rubidium> but euro or pounds (sterling)?
16:20:44  <DJNekkid> im always talking about £'s
16:20:45  <planetmaker> doesn't matter really.
16:21:00  <planetmaker> it's all scaled by base costs anyway ;-)
16:21:39  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, what should be the name of the project?
16:21:49  <planetmaker> and... should metro tracks be part of it?
16:21:52  <DJNekkid> my current working file is "nutracks" :)
16:21:53  <Rubidium> DJNWD :)
16:22:01  <planetmaker> :-P
16:22:27  <DJNekkid> and yes, i think metro tracks should be a part of it
16:22:47  <Rubidium> cheslotraexfatra :)
16:22:51  <planetmaker> then talk to FooBar. He remade nearly TransRapid tracks already
16:23:08  <DJNekkid> yes, my plans were to hook up with him eventually :)
16:23:10  <planetmaker> Not sure, but might be that he feels like making it single newgrfs
16:23:36  <DJNekkid> but there is no reason to include the TR tracks (if he agrees) in this one as well...
16:23:38  <planetmaker> Better hook up now. The Transrapid works as far as I saw the NFO. It just needs cleaning up the repo and maybe polishing some sprites
16:24:02  <DJNekkid> but the original ML tracks are ok as well
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16:24:29  <planetmaker> well... I don't mind either way.
16:24:47  <planetmaker> Just telling ;-)
16:25:08  <Rubidium> good luck drawing the different track types so they look apart in-game
16:25:16  <planetmaker> hehe ;-)
16:25:45  <planetmaker> But there's some variety possible. Clearly as the CZ, the Japanese, Metrotracks and usual tracks show
16:26:30  <DJNekkid> ran some number planetmaker ... with 25500 beeing the price of Maglev, we will have a resolution of 100£ per tile
16:26:58  <planetmaker> hu? Resolution per tile? Doesn't make sense for me
16:27:02  <DJNekkid> well ...
16:27:09  <DJNekkid> we only have 255 different costs we can apply
16:27:34  <DJNekkid> with a certain cost adjustment, it max at 25500
16:27:40  <DJNekkid> 25500/255 = 100
16:27:42  <planetmaker> ah, that way
16:27:46  <planetmaker> yes
16:28:06  <planetmaker> then maglev is 25500 money units per tile
16:28:28  <DJNekkid> 25520 actually :)
16:28:36  <Rubidium> I'd use some prime number as base price :)
16:28:36  <planetmaker> ?
16:28:43  <planetmaker> why prime?
16:29:05  <planetmaker> so that it looks a bit less even? ;-)
16:29:15  <Rubidium> yup :)
16:29:30  <planetmaker> well.... 101 should be easy :-P
16:29:31  <Rubidium> 107 or 97 or so
16:29:40  <planetmaker> or those
16:30:00  <Rubidium> although, with inflation it doesn't matter that much
16:30:09  <Rubidium> ah well, who cares?
16:30:33  <planetmaker> not everyone uses inflation. But the base could (should?) be settable by a difficulty parameter
16:30:50  <planetmaker> hm... one can actually query those...
16:31:04  <DJNekkid> but most people probably use "low" construction costs...
16:31:15  <planetmaker> yes :-P
16:31:21  * planetmaker too
16:31:32  <planetmaker> Also with 2cctrainset :-P
16:31:36  <DJNekkid> that means that the 25520 max is a good bit lower
16:31:39  <DJNekkid> i'll check
16:32:13  <DJNekkid> 19140 on low
16:32:22  <DJNekkid> !calc 19140/255
16:32:23  <planetmaker> uhm... why?
16:32:33  <planetmaker> @ ...
16:32:39  <DJNekkid> @calc 19140/255
16:32:39  <Webster> DJNekkid: 75.0588235294
16:32:58  <Rubidium> 3/4th
16:33:09  <Rubidium> @calc 255 * 75
16:33:09  <Webster> Rubidium: 19125
16:33:22  <DJNekkid> 28582 on high costs
16:33:28  <Rubidium> + 0.75 * 20 for clearing
16:33:39  <DJNekkid> yes, most likely :)
16:33:43  <DJNekkid> hence the 25520 :)
16:33:46  <planetmaker> wow, that'll be the ruin
16:33:57  <Rubidium> @calc 255 * 112.5
16:33:57  <Webster> Rubidium: 28687.5
16:33:59  <planetmaker> those extra 15$ ;-)
16:34:05  <DJNekkid> £'s
16:34:14  <planetmaker> I don't have that on my keyboard
16:34:26  <DJNekkid> alt-gr 3 ?
16:34:35  <planetmaker> so it's for me either € or $ ;-)
16:34:46  <planetmaker> ³ <-- alt-gr-3 ;-)
16:34:51  <DJNekkid> nice
16:35:02  <DJNekkid> and ^2 on alt-gr 2?
16:35:02  <Rubidium> alt-gr 3? guess I don't have alt-gr; it goes to #openttd
16:35:06  <planetmaker> yup
16:35:36  <planetmaker> uh... no alt-gr? How can that be (with usual keyboards right of space)?
16:36:06  <Rubidium> that works like an alt to me :)
16:36:14  <planetmaker> x² / x³ = 1/x :-)
16:36:19  <Rubidium> and I can't be bothered by it
16:36:21  <planetmaker> I never use those, though.
16:36:32  <Rubidium> $x^2 / x^3 = 1/x$ works too
16:36:37  <planetmaker> hm, interesting, I cannot do without. I'd miss out on {[]}\ otherwise
16:36:47  <planetmaker> and ~
16:36:53  <planetmaker> and |
16:37:04  <planetmaker> kinda essential keys ;-)
16:37:07  <Rubidium> I only miss the 'euro' character, but who cares about that?
16:37:15  <Rubidium> EUR works just fine too
16:37:51  <planetmaker> there was actually a time when I considered switching to a Dutch keyboard layout for the ease of access to [{}]\
16:38:21  <DJNekkid> alt-gr 7-8-9-0 is {[]}
16:38:23  <planetmaker> oh...  @... alt-gr+q
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18:48:16  <Ammler> rised quota to 1GB, so we can "safely" backup our repos ;-)
18:49:08  <DJNekkid> Ammler: you can also use my server as backup if you want...
18:50:51  <Ammler> he, thanks for the offer, might be an option too
18:51:20  <DJNekkid> Rubidium: got any idea on what is the difference between "compatible" and "powered" railtypes? Im not sure i understand it...
18:51:34  <Ammler> as your server has a working Redmine...
18:52:31  <DJNekkid> i should also learn how to backup my mysql DB to the other drive(s)
18:53:03  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, better ask petern ;-)
18:53:06  <Ammler> easiest is with mysqldump
18:53:13  <Ammler> (for recovery)
18:53:54  <Hirundo> DJNekkid: electrical vehicles can drive on normal rails, but then they don't produce any power
18:54:33  <DJNekkid> oki ... in case they have a diesel buddy attached? :)
18:55:46  <Ammler> yeah, so you build erail on slopes ;-)
18:55:47  <Hirundo> then the electrical loco produces zero power, and the diesel has to do all the work
18:57:31  <planetmaker> indeed. That makes sense.
18:57:43  <planetmaker> Double tracktion with a new application :-)
18:58:23  <planetmaker> Always give trains two engines so you don't have to worry about those pesky un-electrified tiles in the middle of your ICE tracks ;-)
18:58:34  <DJNekkid> hehe
18:59:38  * Hirundo ponders using the "Sik" (NS 200, dutchset) for that purpose
19:01:27  <Rubidium> DJNekkid: an EMU *can* run on non-el-rail if pulled by a diesel/steam engine, i.e. it's compatible. It's powered if the train has power on it, i.e. for a EMU only el-rail
19:02:28  <Ammler> possible to code a hybrid?
19:03:33  <Rubidium> hybrid in what way? powered on both?
19:04:15  <Ammler> yes
19:04:25  <Ammler> ah, well
19:04:30  <Rubidium> well, then just say powered for both rail types...
19:07:57  <DJNekkid> we need a new renum :P
19:09:05  <planetmaker> oh yes :-)
19:19:27  <DJNekkid> hmm...
19:19:32  <DJNekkid> something works, and something dont work...
19:21:44  <planetmaker> something=you and something=me ;-P
19:23:28  <DJNekkid> hehe
19:27:34  <DJNekkid> but the wierd thing is, "it" worked earlier
19:27:37  <DJNekkid> and now it dont :P
19:27:39  <DJNekkid> "it"
19:27:55  <planetmaker> yes, I know that. Happens to me all the time
19:29:01  <DJNekkid> seriously?
19:29:25  <planetmaker> well. "all the time" might be an exageration.
19:29:51  <planetmaker> But it does. And then it are subtle differences. Introduced spelling mistakes, only half reverted changes or alike
19:30:06  <DJNekkid> aye
19:34:18  <DJNekkid> aaaah!
19:34:20  <DJNekkid> there it is
19:34:36  <DJNekkid> \b vs /b :)
19:39:35  <planetmaker> see :-) subtle differences ;-)
19:58:50  <DJNekkid> awsome!
19:58:56  <DJNekkid> im getting _something_ to work :)
20:02:15  <DJNekkid> YEY!
20:05:45  <DJNekkid> i can see one problem tho...
20:06:03  <DJNekkid> unless a vehicle is defined to be in the railtypes class, its not possible to build that type
20:07:29  <planetmaker> yes. But that's not really a problem, is it?
20:07:46  <planetmaker> or... do you mean exactly, not only compatible?
20:07:51  <planetmaker> Hm, yes, that's a problem
20:08:08  <DJNekkid> hehe...
20:08:11  <DJNekkid> yes:)
20:08:34  <planetmaker> talk to peter :-P
20:08:59  <DJNekkid> yup...
20:09:20  <planetmaker> or come up with an idea how that conceptually could be solved. And then talk to him ;-)
20:09:36  <DJNekkid> i just saied hi :)
20:10:04  <DJNekkid> what i _can_ see, if a compatible vehicle is present, it should be buildable...
20:10:20  <planetmaker> uh... why don't you discuss it in public?
20:10:40  <planetmaker> there are a number of people there, I think who also could give input
20:10:44  <DJNekkid> i dont know really... :)
20:11:53  <Hirundo> I would propose some sort of flag for this purpose
20:12:02  <DJNekkid> yup...
20:12:11  <planetmaker> Well. petern isn't here :-)
20:12:27  <planetmaker> I'd say, #openttd is THE channel for that topic
20:13:32  <DJNekkid> im just gonna "Finish" this :)
20:33:38  <DJNekkid> planetmaker: did you create a project for my/our nutracks?
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20:37:36  <Luukland> Mr. Ammler, do you have excel 2007?
20:38:04  * PeterT has Excel 2007
20:39:32  <planetmaker> DJNekkid, not yet.
20:39:46  <planetmaker> Why actually "nutracks"?
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20:46:38  <DJNekkid> the first thing that popped into my head when doing inital research and stuff...
20:46:52  <DJNekkid> but we shuld find a "better" type :)
20:47:02  <DJNekkid> type=name
20:47:22  <DJNekkid> and; i found a "hack" to add the railtypes...
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20:48:23  <DJNekkid> added some toyland engines to all climates, with 1920 introyear and 1 year model life :)
20:48:45  <planetmaker> :-D
20:48:46  <DJNekkid> atleast as a temp solution
20:48:56  <planetmaker> reduce also reliability to 0 and power
20:49:09  <planetmaker> and increase price :-P
20:49:19  <DJNekkid> dont matter really...
20:49:24  <DJNekkid> atleast not yet :)
20:49:40  <DJNekkid> and when this .grf is taken into use, i bet Peter have come up with a "proper" solution :)
20:50:11  <DJNekkid> and imho should there be an introduction date for rails as well... :)
20:54:30  <planetmaker> hm... yes.
20:55:27  <planetmaker> Btw... it *might* make sense to re-define the default rail types to the lowest possible compatible types of their kind and then define the other ones (if it comes to introduction dates)
20:57:14  <DJNekkid> i've made RAIL and ELRL the 120kmh rail, and 120kmh elrail
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23:48:15  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 2cc train set - Feature #743: New Tracks - Proposal <>

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