Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 4th April 2010:
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00:38:22  *** KenjiE20 has quit IRC
07:45:44  <andythenorth> hi hi
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09:06:31  <planetmaker> grrr.... Ammler did something with redmine change?
09:07:11  <planetmaker> When I try to update (OpenGFX) issues, I get "Invalid form authenticity token" error after hitting 'send' instead of a confirmation of successfully updating an issue
09:15:00  <Ammler> and you are sure, your session is valid?
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09:20:57  <planetmaker> I loged out and in anew. Same thing
09:21:00  <planetmaker> That was my first thought
09:22:25  <planetmaker> it's not like it's fast atm, either... :S
09:23:19  <planetmaker> anyway... seems to have been a transient phenomenon
09:23:23  <planetmaker> it's gone. Why ever.
09:23:41  <planetmaker> I didn't change anything since my last try. Just chatted up a few guys here on IRC ;-)
09:23:48  <planetmaker> s/up/with/
09:23:50  <planetmaker> :-O
09:26:12  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX - Feature #885: Groundtile brack land (Toyland?) <>
09:26:29  <Ammler> planetmaker: ^ you code that in, I have no idea about that sprite
09:30:43  <planetmaker> he
09:30:46  <planetmaker> your sprite?
09:41:11  <Ammler> no that sand thing
09:41:26  <Ammler> the original looks quite other
09:41:29  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX - Feature #883: Office building improvement <>
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10:14:53  * Ammler thinks, revision forced rebuild is worse than before
10:15:52  <planetmaker> well... but it's needed.
10:16:03  <planetmaker> If you hg up and you change the version string, you need to re-compile
10:16:11  <planetmaker> (or if you commit)
10:16:59  <Ammler> but only because of the version string in the newgrf?
10:17:36  <Rubidium> it changes the resulting nfo
10:17:44  <Rubidium> as such it gets compiled again
10:17:50  <Rubidium> the same happens with OpenTTD
10:17:56  <Ammler> Rubidium: no it doesn't
10:18:02  <Ammler> planetmaker: forces the rebuild
10:18:08  <Rubidium> okay, there is only influences rev.cpp, but still it has to recompile and link that
10:18:14  <planetmaker> Ammler: no, I only do, if the version changes
10:18:28  <planetmaker> and then I say "rebuild forced".
10:18:33  <Ammler> yep
10:18:34  <planetmaker> I don't force it always
10:18:47  <planetmaker> Only when needed
10:19:02  <Ammler> well, you force it only every update, also for non newgrfs
10:19:11  <Ammler> or where the version string has no influence
10:19:16  <planetmaker> but yes, it's more often than before. But that's where the old one failed
10:19:45  <planetmaker> there are 5 grf files where I could skip a re-build, that's opengfx base grfs.
10:20:07  <planetmaker> But how to know that it's not a newgrf which does need re-building (like the extra grf of opengfx)?
10:20:23  <Ammler> hmm, maybe we can disable that for opengfx?
10:20:28  <planetmaker> no
10:20:47  <planetmaker> Or we'll have a wrong extra newgrf at some stage.
10:20:52  <Ammler> no
10:20:55  <planetmaker> OpenGFX was the main reason I reworked it.
10:21:05  <Ammler> you could run make remake for example
10:21:45  <planetmaker> that has the same effect
10:21:50  <Ammler> releases and nightlies are made from fresh clones, so there is no influence either
10:22:09  <planetmaker> releases were always made by me or foobar...
10:22:29  <Ammler> so the only usage is for developing, where it does slow down
10:22:49  <Ammler> and while dev, you don't care about the version string
10:23:16  <planetmaker> I actually do... Or not the newest incarnation of OpenGFX might be selected
10:23:44  <Ammler> ?
10:24:00  <planetmaker> version string = version = selection of which is the latest base set
10:24:16  <Ammler> IMO, it is stupid, if I mod a house and make does rebuild the whole baseset...
10:24:56  <planetmaker> it does that only, if you had previously an unmodified baseset
10:25:05  <planetmaker> if you mod it again, it doesn't do that
10:25:15  <Ammler> obviously, when don't you have that?
10:25:34  <planetmaker> I usually have a modified opengfx here :-P
10:26:28  <Ammler> so you mod soemthing, pull changes from repo, it doesn't force?
10:26:57  <Ammler> I am quite sure, you do also rebuild the whole set every time :-)
10:27:44  <planetmaker> I re-build every time the version changes, yes.
10:27:47  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: #openttdcoop - Document: Proposals for NFO version 8 <> || #openttdcoop - nfov8.txt <>
10:27:59  <planetmaker> But it doesn't re-build as long as I work on a single changeset.
10:28:13  <planetmaker> then it only re-builds the parts which I modified
10:28:20  <planetmaker> And all is like it works by design
10:28:58  <planetmaker> a changed version should always trigger the grf to be built anew.
10:29:19  <planetmaker> or you would see for every newgrf project another version in your newgrf selection that what you expected
10:29:24  <planetmaker> very confusing and bad
10:30:00  <planetmaker> make must produce the version the repo shows and only report "nothing to do" when that is actually true
10:31:39  <Ammler> yep, but only where the version is showed
10:32:03  <planetmaker> which is basically every file ending with *.grf
10:32:22  <Ammler> hmm, stupid KDE exactly when I need zooming, it has disabled compositing
10:36:40  <Ammler> <-- any difference?
10:37:55  <Ammler> the alignment is worse
10:38:44  <Ammler> planetmaker: if the version string is in the name for example
10:38:56  <planetmaker> slightly worse alignment, yes
10:39:07  <planetmaker> Ammler: for example, yes. But also in action8
10:39:40  <Ammler> you mean for upcoming nfov8?
10:39:55  <planetmaker> uhm, no. For all our newgrfs :-)
10:41:53  <planetmaker> <-- his treatise on that
10:42:18  <planetmaker> oh, and please either tell or amend what I missed in that list :-)
10:43:01  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX - Feature #883: Office building improvement <>
10:43:31  <Ammler> If I generate a new map, I have no single town with that house
10:43:45  <planetmaker> always?
10:43:52  <planetmaker> Maybe it's limited to another date
10:44:14  <Ammler> do we have a coop save with big arctic towns?
10:46:22  <Ammler> well, that is the disadvantage of template, you can't adjust the alignment
10:46:54  <planetmaker> yes, you have to do the alignment in the pcx.
10:50:10  <planetmaker> hm... most small arctic houses are a bit too noisy for my taste
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10:56:08  <Ammler> you should not mention features, which don't need bump
10:56:21  <Ammler> those could be added anytime, can't?
10:56:59  <Ammler> like railtypes
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11:00:51  <Ammler> loading different version for debug should also somehow be possible
11:08:26  <planetmaker> you can re-load newgrfs. If you just replace the file, you can compare
11:09:00  <Ammler> not with base sets :-)
11:09:06  <Ammler> or is that possible too?
11:09:23  <planetmaker> I didn't yet extensively test. I *think*, though, not
11:09:27  <Ammler> omg, maglev trains in 0.2.3 are quite ugly
11:09:58  <Ammler> did you change something int that respect lately?
11:11:08  <Ammler> pax engine and wagons are quite much misaligned
11:11:58  <Ammler>
11:12:43  <Ammler>
11:12:59  <Ammler> any difference (the office house)
11:20:38  <andythenorth> planetmaker: lumber mill might be the reason...
11:20:52  <andythenorth> have a look in checks.pnfo
11:21:17  <planetmaker> I looked. I tried. It's not
11:21:28  <planetmaker> Only v1 of Lumber Mill is a reason. Not v2
11:21:47  <planetmaker> Ammler: yes, I'm responsible :-(
11:22:42  <andythenorth> planetmaker: yup you're correct :)
11:22:42  <Ammler> well, the issue is, that you and me aligning vehicles differently
11:22:49  <Ammler> and you only replaced waggons :-)
11:22:58  <planetmaker> but I wonder why it is so damn difficult to follow even detailed instructions I gave in order to report the error :-(
11:23:16  <planetmaker> Ammler: yes, the engines are not yet pikka-fied, I think
11:23:32  <Ammler> personally, I like my alignment more :-P
11:23:44  <planetmaker> on monorail it looked quite a bit off
11:23:48  <Ammler> your trains look like flying
11:25:21  <Ammler> planetmaker: which error?
11:25:31  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I wonder if my focus for FIRS 0.2 should be on sorting out error texts and manual and such?
11:25:46  <planetmaker> Ammler: the probs a noob has with FIRS. tt-forums
11:26:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's not like the error texts are bad
11:26:03  <andythenorth> FooBar was very diligent about that stuff
11:26:07  <planetmaker> People just don't look.
11:26:40  <planetmaker> Though it might make sense to possibly give individual error messages. It's not too much effort
11:26:52  <andythenorth>  displaying which set(s) are incompatible would be better
11:26:55  <andythenorth> a bit map would do it
11:27:08  <planetmaker> uhm...
11:27:18  <planetmaker> maybe
11:27:34  <planetmaker> But usually you de-activate on the first one you find incompatible
11:29:37  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #887 (New): Recolor US Set wagons to provide FIRS support <>
11:30:17  <andythenorth> planetmaker: that would work too :)
11:32:07  <planetmaker> hm... can a grf parameter be a string?
11:34:36  <Ammler> <-- no forum link?
11:34:50  <Ammler> the homepage is the forum, ok
11:43:07  <planetmaker> hm, let's test the detailed error description thingy
11:45:13  <planetmaker> andythenorth: <-- like that?
11:45:20  <planetmaker> If so, I'll finish it and commit
11:45:23  <planetmaker> It's no biggy
11:45:39  <planetmaker> (sorry in German, but you get the drift, I think)
11:45:43  <andythenorth> planetmaker: works for me
11:45:58  <andythenorth> This 'consult read me' bothers me though
11:46:06  <planetmaker> Why?
11:46:07  <andythenorth> (1) readme is not very up to date :)
11:46:11  <planetmaker> Well, can be changed ;-)
11:46:17  <planetmaker> or removed. But still.
11:46:26  <andythenorth> (2) we discussed before...I am a bananas user....where is the read me again?
11:46:33  <andythenorth> I think it's kind of broken
11:46:43  <planetmaker> in the release dir of firs on
11:46:49  <planetmaker> I could link there. Good idea
11:47:06  <Ammler> btw, that guy in forums is using a test grf lumber mill
11:47:08  <andythenorth> so how do us a bananas user get to there :P
11:47:16  <andythenorth> does /s
11:47:26  <Ammler> (suffix PS)
11:47:28  * andythenorth has some grumbles about bananas
11:47:28  <planetmaker> by writing the http:// link in the error message
11:47:44  <andythenorth> text is not selectable though :|
11:48:00  <planetmaker> but people can read. If not, they won't get helped whatever you do
11:48:47  <andythenorth> do the commit :)
11:48:55  <andythenorth> I/we can improve other things later
11:50:16  <planetmaker> I add the http link to the error message. I still need to re-write those for other errors than incompatible. But no big deal. I'm right on it :-)
11:50:38  <andythenorth> thanks :)
11:50:41  <andythenorth> 0.1.3?
11:51:02  <planetmaker> well... not sure that it is worth.
11:51:15  <planetmaker> it's a feature, not a bug fix
11:51:36  <planetmaker> but well. Your choice :-)
11:51:41  <andythenorth> I like releasing :)
11:51:58  <andythenorth> but I don't like the work to do a release :o
11:54:01  <planetmaker> :-P
11:54:15  <planetmaker> I noticed ;-)
11:55:46  <Ammler> :'-(
11:56:51  <Ammler> well, what is bad about people using nightlies?
11:57:33  <planetmaker> indeed. It's no big deal to (also) upload a nightly to bananas.
11:58:03  <Ammler> well, bananas is worth a release then
11:58:09  <Ammler> also no big deal anymore
11:58:51  <Ammler> or do you fear work for readme and changelog?
11:59:38  <andythenorth> FIRS has no changelog :)
11:59:50  <Ammler> :-o
12:00:02  <Ammler> release without changelog, how is that possible?
12:00:19  <Ammler> :-P
12:08:15  <planetmaker> hm... devzone down :S
12:12:01  <planetmaker> hm... recovered
12:18:13  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 767: Feature: Make error messages about incompatible New... <>
12:27:32  <planetmaker> The whole multi-newgrf compatibility needs now testing.
12:28:16  <planetmaker> anyway... all such messages should now be quite verbose
12:28:43  <planetmaker> viva la define: #define INCOMPATIBLE_GRF(x) -1 * 0 0B 03 7F FF "EE01: Incompatible set: "x"Consult FIRS ReadMe: E\0D" 00
12:30:41  * andythenorth thinks it would help to test with the nightly, not 0.1.2 m(
12:33:17  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 769: Cleanup: Remove now unused jump labels <> || FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 768: Feature: Also make the load errors due to incompati... <>
12:35:15  <andythenorth> planetmaker: my (not very rigourous) testing shows that it works so far
12:36:53  <planetmaker> not very vigerous testing was what I did here, too ;-)
13:57:47  <andythenorth> so what reasons should I use to decide major / minor / point version releases?
14:06:00  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #888 (New): Change aluminium mill to use combinatory cargos <>
14:07:09  <Ammler> minor versions are mainly bugfix releases
14:14:44  <andythenorth> Ammler: for RVs, "go non-stop via" means the vehicle shouldn't stop in the station?
14:20:58  <Ammler> yes
14:21:13  <Ammler> via is like waypoint
14:22:47  <andythenorth> not in my game
14:22:56  <andythenorth> goes to the station, starts loading
14:23:04  <andythenorth> ho hum
14:23:14  <Ammler> hmm, please post a save
14:24:10  <andythenorth> where to?
14:24:40  <Ammler> where every you want :-)
14:24:45  <Ammler> you can use the devzone
14:24:55  <Ammler> -y
14:28:20  <andythenorth> Ammler:
14:28:29  <andythenorth> devzone was 'stuck' for file uploads :o
14:28:34  <andythenorth> you might need some grfs from me
14:30:48  <Ammler> worleysidings, but that might not be important
14:31:20  <andythenorth> it can be found on the forums anyway :)
14:31:35  <andythenorth> look at road vehicle 8
14:31:37  <Ammler> hmm, i have wrong heqs
14:32:00  <Ammler> 0.5c
14:32:29  <andythenorth> build the nightly, or I'll send you something....
14:32:37  <Ammler> well
14:32:50  <Ammler> 0.6 wuold be on bananas, dosn't that fit?
14:32:58  <andythenorth> no, the trams are unreleased
14:32:58  <Ammler> that is silly
14:33:07  <Ammler> I can't download that either
14:33:18  <Ammler> did you change GRFID?
14:33:31  <andythenorth> not IIRC
14:33:34  <Ammler> then I use the nightly
14:34:46  <Ammler> nothing is running, but still quite slow
14:35:02  <Ammler> might be local...
14:38:25  <Ammler> andythenorth: are you able to browse
14:38:45  <Ammler> everything takes ages here
14:39:09  <andythenorth> very slow
14:39:13  <Ammler> there is no server usage
14:39:18  <andythenorth> hmmm
14:39:23  <Ammler> no lots of memory usea
14:39:39  <andythenorth> just got fast again
14:39:47  <Ammler> that is just silly vps, I fear :-(
14:39:59  <andythenorth> we talked about paying for a dedicated box?
14:41:32  <Ammler> \o/ road trains :-)
14:41:42  <Ammler> yes, we did that too late
14:41:57  <Ammler> we bought the vps at that time already
14:42:04  <Ammler> but next box might be one
14:42:56  <Ammler> oh
14:43:00  <Ammler> got assert :-)
14:43:51  <Ammler> cloning repo and make heqs
14:44:51  <Ammler> why do you use such an old ISR?
14:45:19  <Ammler> or could you post your ISR somewhere?
14:45:49  <andythenorth>  yup
14:45:57  <andythenorth> I'll pm
14:46:52  <Ammler> any reason, you don't use bananas version?
14:47:10  <andythenorth> inertia....
14:47:12  <andythenorth> pm sent
14:47:31  <Ammler> this isr version isn't even in our obsolete archive :-)
14:49:43  <Ammler> martp does use a quite strange development envirnonment, so the IDs change on every release
14:49:46  <andythenorth> it was private release
14:49:54  <Ammler> I see beta3 :-)
14:50:12  <Ammler> unpause works \o/
14:50:58  <Ammler> which veh shall I watch?
14:51:19  <Ammler> so cute :-)
14:52:07  <andythenorth> rv number 8
14:53:07  <Ammler> you are using 2 times the same station
14:54:10  <andythenorth> so I add another one...
14:54:11  <andythenorth> ok
14:54:30  <andythenorth> hmm
14:54:38  <andythenorth> I don't have a spare tile for that.
14:54:42  <andythenorth> maybe with some demolition...
14:57:27  <andythenorth> It's a nice eye candy game though :)
14:57:58  <Ammler> looks like you screwed your penalties
14:59:14  <andythenorth> meaning 'lots of things are losing money'?
14:59:51  <Ammler> no, meaning rvs don't avoid road stops not in the order list
15:00:13  <Ammler> or it is a new bug...
15:00:27  <Ammler> penalties should really get a gui
15:00:34  <andythenorth> I haven't changed any pf settings in config
15:02:09  <Ammler> :-(
15:02:12  <Ammler> it might be
15:02:36  <Ammler> yapf has only penatlty for occupied stops anymore
15:05:32  <Ammler> andythenorth: you should also use non-stop per default
15:05:49  <andythenorth> any reason?
15:05:56  <Ammler> I can't think of any use of no non-stop except maybe some s-bahn config
15:06:15  <Ammler> it wouldn't stop at stations, it doesn't need
15:06:52  <andythenorth> I use it for passenger services
15:07:20  <andythenorth> with maybe five stations on an A<->B<->C<->D<->E kind of line
15:08:19  <Ammler> <-- how I would make such a station :-)
15:08:20  <Webster> Title: plasma-desktopAw4843.jpg (at
15:08:40  <Ammler> andythenorth: yes, but you don't have such rows a lot
15:08:56  <Ammler> so you can still change the stop behaviour for such rarly configs
15:09:15  <andythenorth> ok that makes sense
15:09:44  <Ammler> I didn't say, I shouldn't use it, just I would change the default :-)
15:09:54  <Ammler> you shouldn't*
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19:40:38  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FISH - Revision 300: Change: prepped Medium Coaster psd for loading and tanker sprites <>
19:55:51  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FISH - Revision 301: Change: prepped Small River Boat psd for loading and tanker sprites <>
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23:37:28  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX - Feature #885: Groundtile brack land (Toyland?) <>

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