Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 18th April 2010:
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00:25:15  <Yexo> planetmaker: default for speed (for both trains and roadvehicles) is now mph
00:25:22  <Yexo> you can optionally specify a different unit
00:25:45  <Yexo> "speed: 135km/h", "speed: 60mph;", "speed: 40m/s" are all valid
00:26:06  <planetmaker> space allowed?
00:26:10  <Yexo> yes
00:26:14  <planetmaker> fractional numbers allowed?
00:26:19  <Yexo> spaces are ignored by the parser
00:26:25  <Yexo> not yet
00:26:30  <Yexo> not sure if they should be
00:26:31  <planetmaker> ok :-)
00:26:45  <planetmaker> could open hell's gates
00:27:03  <Yexo> there might be some rounding problems, but nothing major
00:27:18  <planetmaker> well. rounding problems are there already now.
00:27:33  <planetmaker> 3.6 is not a factor which is integer ;-)
00:27:36  <Yexo> if you specify 125km/h for example it comes out as 123km/h in game
00:27:37  <planetmaker> nor is 0.25 or 0.8
00:27:48  <Yexo> something like that at least
00:27:52  <planetmaker> yeah.
00:28:03  <planetmaker> but that's the case now anyway, however done
00:28:13  <planetmaker> also is actually in NFO.
00:28:21  <Yexo> yep
00:34:56  <Ammler> but nfo uses km/h afaik?
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00:35:09  <Yexo> Ammler: no, nfo uses different units per property
00:35:28  <Yexo> for trans it uses 1.6*mph, for road vehicles either 3.2*mph or 0.8*mph depending on the property
00:35:56  <Ammler> I am quite sure, for trains, it uses km/h :-)
00:36:07  <Ammler> at least that is how I set my logic train
00:36:13  <Yexo> Ammler: 1.6mph = km/h :)
00:36:17  <Yexo> at least approximately
00:36:27  <Ammler> yep
00:36:36  <Ammler> so why not using that?
00:37:01  <Yexo> it's possible to use that, just specify km/h after your speed
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00:37:36  <planetmaker> hm. But the conversion factor is wrong
00:37:52  <planetmaker> it should use the same as OpenTTD
00:38:06  <Ammler> or the same as nfo spec
00:38:27  <planetmaker> @calc 77/80
00:38:27  <Webster> planetmaker: 0.9625
00:38:38  <Ammler> and then convert, if someone is adding mp/h
00:39:05  <planetmaker> @calc 1.609 *80/77
00:39:05  <Webster> planetmaker: 1.67168831169
00:39:06  <Ammler> mph*
00:39:34  <Ammler> also mph seems "safer" without the "/"
00:40:47  <Yexo> Ammler: the p in mph is for 'per', so 'miles per hour', in km/h the '/' stands for 'per'
00:40:57  <Ammler> Yexo: yes
00:40:59  <Yexo> mp/h is invalid
00:41:08  <Yexo> m/h could be used, but nobody does that
00:41:09  <Ammler> [02:39] <Ammler> mph*$
00:41:16  <Yexo> ah, sorry :)
00:41:40  <Ammler> I would use km/h as default and convert mph
00:41:50  <Ammler> as that is also what the nfo spec does, at least with trains
00:42:47  <Yexo> ok
00:44:01  <Ammler> what does openttd use?
00:44:26  <Yexo> some internal unit
00:45:06  <Ammler> but then it does convert the nfo value?
00:45:36  <Yexo> openttd uses different units for all vehicle types
00:45:40  <Yexo> like the nfo spec
00:45:40  <Ammler> and calc back for the gui
00:45:49  <Yexo> for printing it uses mph
00:46:17  <Yexo> but it calculates the speed in km/h as 'speed_in_mph * 0.804', which seems wrong
00:47:03  <planetmaker> @calc 1/0.804
00:47:04  <Webster> planetmaker: 1.24378109453
00:47:10  <Yexo> yes, that ^^
00:47:17  <Yexo> not * 0.8, but / 0.8
00:47:31  <planetmaker> that difference would show
00:47:39  <planetmaker> not?
00:47:41  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 104: Feature: optional unit for speeds <>
00:47:59  <planetmaker> @calc 0.8**2
00:47:59  <Webster> planetmaker: 0.64
00:48:57  <Ammler> nfo 10000 = openttd 10058
00:49:18  <Yexo> nvm, 1<<6 is 64, not 128
00:50:51  <Yexo> Ammler: opentdt displays train_speed (in nfo) / 1.6 * 1.609
00:51:02  <Yexo> if it should display km/h at least
00:51:04  <planetmaker> anyway... good job on NML, Yexo :-) And I should go to sleep :-)
00:51:34  <planetmaker> Yexo: a better factor seems to be 1.58 or so instead of 1.609
00:52:02  <Yexo> planetmaker: why? the nfo specs say the value is in 1.6mph, which is +- km/h, but not exactly
00:52:14  <Yexo> correct value would be 1.609mph, which is what openttd shows
00:52:41  <Ammler> the nfo doesn't say it is exact 1.6mph, does it?
00:53:14  <Yexo> Train speed is in units of mph*1.6, i.e. approximately km/h. <- that's what the wiki says
00:53:16  <planetmaker> well, using 1.609 I get: 80->82, 75->77, 60->59
00:53:25  <Ammler> I guess, that is there to show the uk guys a factor
00:53:38  <planetmaker> using 1.58 I get: 80->80, 75->74, 60->59
00:53:48  <planetmaker> from what I hack into my NML
00:53:52  <Ammler> I consider that as a bug of openttd ;-)
00:53:57  <planetmaker> compared to the ingame display
00:55:25  <Ammler> or it is wrongly in the grf spec
00:56:05  <Ammler> but why should the unit be "almost" km/h?
00:56:18  <Ammler> and not exact km/h or mph
00:56:23  <Yexo> I have no idea
00:56:29  <Ammler> doesn't make sense :-)
00:56:30  <planetmaker> it's exactly mph
00:56:38  <Ammler> no, it isn't
00:56:43  <Ammler> 1.6*mph
00:56:57  <Ammler> which is almost km/h
00:57:14  <planetmaker> hm.
00:57:27  <Ammler> if it is exactly mph, I would use mph as default :-)
00:59:26  <Ammler> trying my grf with ttdp
01:01:37  <Yexo> planetmaker: I didn't round the value, I just took the floor of it
01:01:45  <Yexo> fixed that now, results should be improved
01:06:38  <Yexo> planetmaker: the problem is that setting road vehicle speed also sets prop 15, which has 0.8mph as unit
01:07:20  <Yexo> so 80km/h gets written to prop 15 as 0x27 = 39decimal
01:07:54  <Yexo> openttd then does ((39*2) * 10 / 16) * 1.609
01:08:18  <Ammler> he, ttdp has completey other acceleration behaviour
01:08:28  <Ammler> maybe I configured wrongly...
01:08:29  <Yexo> due to integer rounding at all steps that computes as 77km/h
01:11:22  <Ammler> nfo 1000 = ttdp 1131
01:12:04  <Ammler> =openttd 1005
01:12:14  <Ammler> quite some differences :-)
01:12:32  <Yexo> 1000 what?
01:12:35  <Yexo> which property?
01:12:55  <Ammler> 0x09
01:13:16  <Yexo> openttd is correct
01:13:25  <Yexo> 1000/1.6*1.609 = 1005.625
01:13:59  <Ammler>
01:15:06  <Ammler> Yexo: openttd does use the formula correct, doesn't mean it is correct ;-)
01:15:06  <Yexo> true :)
01:15:06  <Ammler> that is just some random dev who intepretet the spec that way :-)
01:15:49  <Yexo> I interpret the spec the same way, if the value would be in km/h then the spec should've said "Train speed is in km/h, approximately mph*1.6" or so
01:17:30  <Ammler> indeed
01:17:37  <Ammler> 703mph in ttdp
01:18:02  <Ammler> 625 in openttd
01:18:19  <Ammler> @calc 625*1.6
01:18:19  <Webster> Ammler: 1000
01:18:21  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 105: Fix: round the value after convertion it between units instead ... <>
01:18:59  <Ammler> I guess, the failure is in openttd that it calculates guesses of ttd
01:19:46  <Ammler> you can see that also by eye, the openttd train is slower than the ttdp train
01:19:48  <Ammler> with same speed
01:20:14  <Ammler> well, with same nfo speed :-)
01:20:28  <Yexo> that could as well be ttdp's fault
01:20:56  <Ammler> hmm, fault of their new accelpatch :-)
01:21:31  <Yexo> what happens if you disable realistic acceleration in ttdpatch?
01:21:35  <Yexo> or whatever it's called there?
01:22:58  <Ammler> yeah, I am looking, don't find it
01:23:57  <Yexo> it's called "curves" and "mountains"
01:24:00  <Yexo> see
01:24:32  <Ammler> yep
01:24:37  <Ammler> set it to 2222
01:25:51  <Ammler> ah, stupid me
01:26:07  <Ammler> ttdp has a gehaviour, if you use double headed trains
01:26:17  <Ammler> they go faster than max
01:26:32  <Yexo> ah, so that was the problem?
01:27:12  <Ammler> now it is 625 too
01:27:32  <Yexo> and in km/h?
01:27:34  <Ammler> and 1005
01:27:38  <Ammler> :-)
01:27:40  <Yexo> cool :)
01:27:46  <Ammler> so all fine, SORRY :-$
01:28:16  <Ammler> didn't remember that strange behaviour with double headed trains
01:28:22  <Yexo> np, it doesn't hrut to check such things sometimes
01:29:20  <Yexo> 1000km/h in nml -> 999km/h in openttd, 1005km/h in nml -> 1004km/h in openttd
01:29:52  <Ammler> well, in this case, it does make sense to use mph
01:30:04  <Ammler> as that can be calculated exactly
01:30:16  <Yexo> 625mph in nml -> 1005km/h in openttd
01:30:38  <Ammler> yes, same in ttdp
01:31:17  <Ammler> oh, it isn't mph either ;-)
01:31:27  <Ammler> nah, it is.
01:31:28  <Ammler>  :-P
01:32:31  <Ammler> what I very much dislike on ttdp is the gui usagae
01:32:47  <Ammler> specially autorail is such a big plus
01:33:19  <Yexo> I have that even when playing openttd 0.7 now
01:33:27  <Yexo> I miss fast goto-orders and such
01:34:05  <Yexo> and persistant build tools
01:34:35  <Ammler> yeah, I miss station_build_gui ;-)
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02:25:52  <DJNekkid> omg what a night!
02:26:41  <DJNekkid> and btw ...
02:26:56  <DJNekkid> nfo speed != ingame speed
02:27:12  <DJNekkid> some is correct, some isnt
02:28:36  <DJNekkid> 70kmh dont exist (69), 100 dont exist (99), and especially when you get above a certain speed, they dont translate 100% correct...
02:28:52  <DJNekkid> \w320 turns out to be 321 ingame
02:29:02  <DJNekkid> and the higher you go, the more it offsets
02:29:17  <DJNekkid> see the 2ccset excelsheet vs .grf
02:29:42  <DJNekkid> and last but not least; Kristine sends kisses and hugs for thoose who might want one :)
07:07:27  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FISH - Revision 328: Add: pcx file for Large Freight Hovercraft <> || FISH - Revision 327: Remove/Add: psd files for Medium and Large Freight Hovercraft <> || FISH - Revision 326: Remove/Add: updated renders for Large Freight Hovercraft <>
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07:24:12  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FISH - Revision 332: Feature: tanker graphics for Coasters <> || FISH - Revision 331: Change: add defines to Coasters to support templates <> || FISH - Revision 330: Change: make use of defines for Coaster IDs <> || FISH - Revision 329: Change: add defines for Coaster IDs <>
07:40:14  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FISH - Revision 334: Added tag 0.4 for changeset c566f6f03785 <> || FISH - Revision 333: Change: updated changelog <>
07:44:05  <planetmaker> @calc 108*2^9
07:44:10  <planetmaker> @calc 108*2**9
07:44:10  <Webster> planetmaker: 55296
07:44:24  <planetmaker> @calc 108* (2**5)
07:44:24  <Webster> planetmaker: 3456
07:44:53  <planetmaker> @base 16 10 10
07:44:53  <Webster> planetmaker: 16
07:45:08  <planetmaker> @calc 108* 16
07:45:08  <Webster> planetmaker: 1728
07:45:23  <planetmaker> @calc 108* 32
07:45:23  <Webster> planetmaker: 3456
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09:09:43  <planetmaker> those trams look just awesome :-)
09:15:16  <planetmaker> hm... I need to start a repo with opengfx+ ...
09:15:37  <planetmaker> and makefile needs adjustment. And NML needs general availability
09:15:51  <planetmaker> ls
09:15:56  <planetmaker> err :-)
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10:28:12  <DJNekkid> i would like to see an var2 in NML
10:28:50  <DJNekkid> including callbacks, different gfx in different positions, etc
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11:06:03  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: should in principle be possible already
11:06:09  <planetmaker> that's what they started with ;-)
11:11:53  <Ammler> DJNekkid: nfo speed is ingame speed
11:12:06  <Ammler> just use the same formula as openttd
11:13:03  <Ammler> I confirmed it with ttdp
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11:37:23  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Feature #899: accept arbitrary input files and command line arguments <" target="_blank">> || NFO Meta Language - Feature #899 (New): accept arbitrary input files and command line arguments <>
11:49:48  <Ammler> planetmaker: Foster "Supertram" tram?
11:50:02  <planetmaker> well. yes
11:50:06  <Ammler> doesn't that sound silly?
11:50:08  <planetmaker> yes
11:50:10  <planetmaker> :-P
11:50:43  <planetmaker> I like the graphics :-)
11:51:08  <Ammler> yes, nice
11:51:25  <Ammler> hmm, a bit hard to distinguish from buses?
11:51:42  <planetmaker> well... sometimes
11:51:51  <planetmaker> but not that difficult I think
11:52:57  <Ammler> colossal is right with the alignment
12:05:20  <planetmaker> right.
12:06:54  <OwenS> There is actually a tram service called Supertram in the UK :P
12:08:53  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Feature #899: accept arbitrary input files and command line arguments <>
12:10:38  <planetmaker> OwenS: I suspect that's where the name comes from
12:14:49  <Ammler> planetmaker: will we distribute ogfx+ with the baseset?
12:15:16  <planetmaker> it's a separate newgrf, I think
12:15:25  <Ammler> yeah, of course
12:15:40  <Ammler> but we could bundle it with opengfx
12:15:46  <planetmaker> not on bananas.
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12:23:09  <Hirundo> Is it possible to switch redmine's email notifications completely off?
12:24:43  <planetmaker> :-P Did I spam you?
12:26:09  <planetmaker> it might work, if you select "for any event in the selected projects only" - and then select no project
12:27:39  <planetmaker> hm, screw templates
12:49:20  <Ammler> of course you can, but maybe you like to reduce it?
12:55:04  <planetmaker> I'm really not sure anymore that alignment templates save work...
12:55:37  <planetmaker> something different: is there a list of which vehicle / train / ... has which ID? Somewhere?
12:55:43  <planetmaker> of the default vehicles I mean
13:00:17  <planetmaker> nvm
13:00:20  <planetmaker> found it :-)
13:26:28  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Feature #899: accept arbitrary input files and command line arguments <" target="_blank">> || NFO Meta Language - Feature #899: accept arbitrary input files and command line arguments <" target="_blank">> || NFO Meta Language - Feature #899 (New): accept arbitrary input files and command line arguments <> || FISH - Revision 334: Added tag 0.4 for changeset c566f6f03785 <> || FISH - Revision 333: Change: updated changelog <> || FISH - Revision 332: Feature: tanker graphics for Coasters <> || FISH - Revision 331: Change: add defines to Coasters to support templates <> || FISH - Revision 330: Change: make use of defines for Coaster IDs <> || FISH - Revision 329: Change: add defines for Coaster IDs <> || FISH - Revision 328: Add: pcx file for Large Freight Hovercraft <> || FISH - Revision 327: Remove/Add: psd files for Medium and Large Freight Hovercraft <> || FISH - Revision 326: Remove/Add: updated renders for Large Freight Hovercraft <> || NFO Meta Language - Revision 105: Fix: round the value after convertion it between units instead ... <> || NFO Meta Language - Revision 104: Feature: optional unit for speeds <> || OpenGFX - opengfx_generic_trams1.pcx <>
13:42:02  <Hirundo> planetmaker: your tram grf/nml looks nice
13:42:17  <Hirundo> Are all those sprite sets the same, except for y offset?
13:43:51  <planetmaker> unfortunately not quite
13:44:09  <planetmaker> But it could be aranged, I think with a bit copy&paste&editing in the pcx
13:44:26  <planetmaker> the height of the / and \ views is different
13:46:19  <Hirundo> I'm thinking about template support, would that be useful?
13:51:13  <Ammler> didn't you already implement that?
13:51:43  <Hirundo> I suggested it before, but did not implement it yet
13:52:16  <planetmaker> Hirundo: it would be useful. Sure
13:52:20  <Yexo> <DJNekkid> i would like to see an var2 in NML <- do you have a sample nfo I can convert to nml? then I'd be easy to compare the result
13:52:35  <planetmaker> Yexo: I'm working on one.
13:52:37  <planetmaker> :-)
13:52:46  <planetmaker> Ogfx+ has some trains, too ;-)
13:52:52  <Yexo> ah, cool :)
13:53:07  <planetmaker> currently on TurboTrain (Arctic) as MU with livery override
13:53:07  <planetmaker> fixing offsets right now...
13:53:13  <Hirundo> Yexo: are overrides supported yet?
13:53:19  <Yexo> nope
13:53:23  <planetmaker> :-P
13:53:23  <Yexo> not sure how they work either
13:53:29  <planetmaker> varaction2
13:53:38  <planetmaker> just use different graphics. IIRC
13:53:45  <Yexo> that should work
13:54:02  <planetmaker> at least that's what I *think*. That's not always correct ;-)
13:54:03  <Yexo> I thought you're talking about
13:54:14  <Hirundo> yes
13:54:15  <planetmaker> Btw, did you look at the patch I posted
13:54:18  <planetmaker> ?
13:54:25  <Yexo> yes, you should pull :p
13:54:31  <Hirundo> The effect can probably be achieved with varact2 as well
13:54:37  <Yexo> Webster is slow
13:55:15  <planetmaker> Yexo: I've never done a livery override :-) So I'm talking about something... I don't really know :-P
13:55:58  <planetmaker> it seems using another sprite for a certain engine is easier with what you just posted
13:56:25  <Hirundo> I think a good way to get the ID of an item is needed, if IDs are not set explicitly
13:56:38  <planetmaker> currently I use them explicitly
13:57:31  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Feature #899 (Closed): accept arbitrary input files and command line arguments <" target="_blank">> || NFO Meta Language - Feature #899 (Resolved): accept arbitrary input files and command line arguments <" target="_blank">> || NFO Meta Language - Revision 106: Feature: implement action A <> || NFO Meta Language - Feature #899 (Closed): accept arbitrary input files and command line arguments <>
13:58:40  <Hirundo> Yexo: vehicles having a default group was intended to be a feature
13:59:18  <Yexo> Hirundo: was that a question? did I do anything wrong?
14:00:47  <Hirundo> <- regarding this change
14:01:11  <Yexo> Hirundo: ok, but it was bugged
14:01:22  <Yexo> in nfo a vehicle needs at least 1 loaded and 1 loading set
14:01:37  <planetmaker> many vehicles don't need or have that, though
14:01:39  <planetmaker> like planes
14:01:42  <planetmaker> or passenger trains
14:01:43  <Yexo> so if you re-add that then be sure to write both loaded and loading set
14:01:44  <planetmaker> or engines
14:01:52  <frosch123> [15:54] <Hirundo> The effect can probably be achieved with varact2 as well <- with varact2 you can only access the front engine, with liveryoverride you depend on the next engine before the wagon
14:02:20  <Hirundo> Yexo: I admit that I looked at openttd, not at the spec
14:02:47  <Yexo> nforenum started to complain wildly when i tried, so I removed it
14:02:56  <Yexo> but feel free to readd, just make sure nforenum is ok with it
14:04:11  <Hirundo> OK, will do
14:04:13  <planetmaker> Yexo: in commit messages you can refer to issue numbers. Then those are automatically referenced in the web view :-)
14:04:25  <planetmaker> to the tickets that is
14:04:33  <Yexo> planetmaker: I realized that after I committed your patch
14:04:36  <planetmaker> :-)
14:04:42  <Yexo> will do next time
14:04:54  <planetmaker> rXX is a reference to revision, #XX a reference to an issue
14:05:25  <planetmaker> Just telling. I forget it sometimes, too ;-)
14:08:39  <Yexo> <- does that make sense as wagon override syntax? the 100 is the id of the wagon that is overriden
14:08:50  <Yexo> 256 would be the id of the engine
14:09:31  <Yexo> item(FEAT_ROADVEHS, name = 256) { <- Hirundo I was thinking this as syntax to give the the vehicleid a name, in this case the '= 256' part would be optional
14:12:51  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 107: Feature: read the filenames to parse from the command line (pat... <> || NFO Meta Language - Revision 108: Change: rename to <>
14:14:12  <Hirundo> Yexo: That makes sense, I assume that the wagon_override(xx) could refer to a name as well?
14:14:30  <Yexo> after the optional naming is introduced, yes of course
14:18:22  <frosch123> don't you want to exchange wagon and engine? so everything belonging to the wagon is in one place
14:18:37  <planetmaker> hm?
14:18:41  <frosch123> esp. for shared callbacks that might be useful
14:19:11  <frosch123> planetmaker: livery overrides are defined at the engine in nfo. but imo it is more intuitive to define them at the wagno
14:19:23  <Yexo> you're right
14:19:27  <Yexo> it's just harder to code
14:19:31  <planetmaker> :-D
14:22:00  <planetmaker> <-- Yexo to give you something to play with for action3 livery override
14:22:21  <planetmaker> engine and wagon graphics are coded. The wagon should become the livery override only for that engine
14:22:25  <Ammler> why no repo?
14:22:47  <Yexo> thanks planetmaker
14:22:48  <planetmaker> Ammler: I don't have yet NML globally... and I didn't want to copy it around.
14:23:04  <planetmaker> Yexo: arctic climate :-)
14:23:15  <planetmaker> year 1986 works
14:23:20  <Yexo> planetmaker: if you're in another directory just call it like ../../path/to/nml/ ogfxplus.nml
14:23:42  <planetmaker> hm... I should probably do that :-)
14:23:44  <planetmaker> Now ;-)
14:23:51  <Ammler> or in other words, create a wrapper in /usr/local/bin :-)
14:24:13  <Ammler> (or in ~/bin
14:28:12  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX - <>
14:53:46  <DJNekkid> Yexo: sure... hold on
14:56:05  <DJNekkid>
14:57:44  <DJNekkid> not the prettiest action0 on that one, but that dont really matter :) The var2/callback part otoh :)
14:59:17  <Yexo> that's a nice and long cb chain
15:00:18  <DJNekkid> indeed :D
15:00:50  <DJNekkid> rather well written and documented as well if you ask me :)
15:01:43  <Yexo> yes, but it's still going to take some time for me to decypher
15:02:20  <DJNekkid> i can find an easier example?
15:02:29  <Yexo> no need
15:05:14  <DJNekkid> if you say so
15:07:07  <Yexo> introduction date = 1994?
15:07:11  <Yexo> just checking my math
15:07:32  <DJNekkid> yes
15:08:04  <DJNekkid> that piece of code is actually a copy/paste from a decoded file
15:08:11  <DJNekkid> with some slight mods here or there
15:09:49  <Yexo> speed = 160km/h?
15:09:53  <DJNekkid> yes
15:28:43  <planetmaker> <-- Ammler, Yexo :-)
15:29:08  <planetmaker> it might still be taylored to my paths... nml is found in ../nml
15:34:56  <Ammler> Yexo: maybe you can put a wrapper script to your repo
15:35:09  <Ammler> which than could be symlinked from a $PATH directory
15:35:13  <Yexo> yes, I'll try that later
15:36:57  <planetmaker> Ammler: the makefile works ;-)
15:37:01  <planetmaker> so... :-)
15:37:14  <Ammler> awesome guys
15:37:20  <planetmaker> just define NML= in your Makefile.local
15:37:20  <Ammler> we just found a bug in RC1
15:37:25  <planetmaker> :-D
15:37:37  <planetmaker> what is it?
15:38:18  <planetmaker> anyway, my hardcoded path is gone in ogfxplus
15:47:06  <planetmaker> I praised NML a bit in the ogfxplus thread ;-)
15:48:44  <Yexo> thanks :)
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15:51:04  <Ammler> hmm, why does it need to define a ID?
15:51:21  <planetmaker> Ammler: it doesn't need. But I don't want to overwrite ID0
15:52:31  <planetmaker> Actually I should use lower IDs. Then it would become TTDP compatible ;-)
15:59:56  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX+ - Revision 2: Change: Don't hardcode the path to NML <> || OpenGFX+ - Revision 1: Add: Ignore the usual files <> || OpenGFX+ - Revision 0: Initial import <>
16:03:52  <Ammler> planetmaker: why does nml need special Makefile?
16:04:33  <Ammler> can't you not just make a target %.nml:...?
16:04:41  <planetmaker> Ammler: the nfo file does not depend upon pnfo but on nml
16:04:45  <planetmaker> that needs a distinction
16:05:05  <planetmaker> it cannot depend on both and take what is found
16:05:21  <planetmaker> but the plan is to just define USE_NML and then conditionally use the proper part
16:05:27  <planetmaker> the commented part... that's still ugly
16:05:49  <planetmaker> the target is not %.nml
16:05:59  <planetmaker> but %.nfo: %.nml or %.nfo: %.pnfo
16:06:04  <planetmaker> that's the whole point :-)
16:06:18  <Ammler> yeah, of course, :-$
16:06:23  <Yexo> you could work around it by using %.pnfo: %.nml
16:06:33  <planetmaker> not a big thing. It will be unified with a small ifdef
16:06:43  <planetmaker> Yexo: also a good idea :-)
16:07:07  <planetmaker> but it might give funny effects in "traditional" projects: nml not found ;-)
16:07:23  <planetmaker> thus i prefer the ifdef version
16:07:40  <Ammler> I just wonder, if it is possible to migrate in steps?
16:07:42  <planetmaker> but the first hack didn't yet work. Dunno why. so I just commented the old stuff and put the new
16:08:01  <Ammler> for example in opengfx, migrate only extra first
16:08:08  <planetmaker> Ammler: probably; in the way Yexo proposed.
16:09:00  <planetmaker> which then might be an argument for that kind of definition.
16:18:11  <Ammler> hmm, couldn't the Makefile check, if .pnfo is there use it, if not, check if .nml is there and use it, else give a error
16:18:52  <Ammler> that could be extended to for example my bash nfo
16:26:20  <planetmaker> that's difficult. I don't know how to do that at least, though it *might* be possible *somehow*
16:38:56  <DJNekkid> Yexo: any luck on the (v)IRM code?
16:39:03  <Yexo> yes, still working on it
16:39:08  <DJNekkid> hehe... oki :)
16:39:20  <Yexo> most time goes in decyphering the varaction2 code
16:39:29  <DJNekkid> you need to rewrite by hand?
16:39:35  <Yexo> yes
16:39:40  <DJNekkid> aha :)
16:39:53  <DJNekkid> as i saied, i could find a less ... ehm ... big ... example :)
16:40:11  <DJNekkid> and just shout if you need any help understanding
16:40:25  <Yexo> it's going fine so far
16:40:40  <DJNekkid> :D
16:41:01  <Yexo> I'm at line 168 now
16:41:10  <DJNekkid> that piece of code is probably one of the most advanced/complex things ive done
16:41:24  <Yexo> going up, done at line 93
16:41:52  <DJNekkid> :D
16:42:38  <DJNekkid> k... i'll continue to fight ebilness in diablo2 then :)
16:51:07  <Yexo> DJNekkid: on line 167 the comments "weight" and "power" are swapped
16:51:09  <Yexo> the code is correct
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16:57:58  <planetmaker> Yexo: might be an idea to add that piece of nfo as a test case to NML?
16:58:12  <Yexo> which piece?
16:58:19  <Yexo> DJNekkid's code?
16:58:22  <planetmaker> DJN's. The one you work on. Yes
16:58:35  <Yexo> yes
16:58:45  <Yexo> but then as a complete grf (with only that single train in it)
16:58:50  <Yexo> so you can verify it actually works
16:58:54  <planetmaker> yes
16:59:54  <DJNekkid> indeed they are :)
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17:01:48  * Rubidium ponders calling NML Shinkansen
17:02:17  <planetmaker> hm?
17:02:32  <Rubidium> Shinkansen -> "New Main Line"
17:02:39  <planetmaker> ah :-)
17:03:09  <planetmaker> what an ingenious naming scheme :-P
17:04:07  <Rubidium> it only sounds cool because you don't really care about the exact description
17:04:15  <Rubidium> or whatever the right word is
17:04:21  <planetmaker> :-) as usual
17:04:40  <Rubidium> it's like going "far seeing" (okay, for Germans that might sound right)
17:04:51  <OwenS> Much like TGV has the descriptive name of "High speed train" :p
17:04:54  <planetmaker> Fernsicht?
17:05:08  <Rubidium> OwenS: exactly
17:05:10  <planetmaker> OwenS: ICE is not much better
17:05:20  <OwenS> planetmaker: no, but they chose a cool acronym instead :p
17:05:21  <Rubidium> intercity express, not quite German
17:05:41  <planetmaker> indeed
17:05:51  <Rubidium> even so, I used to like German ICs... now I don't
17:05:56  <planetmaker> and we have service or info points, call centers,
17:06:11  <planetmaker> and so on. What changed your mind, Rubidium ?
17:06:31  <Rubidium> integrating them in the Dutch time table
17:06:51  <planetmaker> integrating changed your mind or dis-integrating?
17:07:31  <Rubidium> it *used* to be that the German IC ran "outside" of the normal timetable, which meant it stopped less and arrived just before the normal (Dutch IC)
17:07:42  <planetmaker> ah.
17:08:39  <Rubidium> now the German IC runs on the normal timetable, which means once every 2 hours no direct train to Enschede so I have to change and wait 10 minutes for the next train which is just too late for the bus
17:09:08  <Rubidium> and if the German IC now has e.g. 30 minutes delay, there's no "fallback", so you'll have to wait 30 minutes till the next train
17:09:45  <Rubidium> ergo: I have to be very careful to determine which train to take just to AVOID the German IC
17:10:05  <Rubidium> where I used to try to catch the German IC to be somewhere earlier/faster
17:10:51  <planetmaker> hm... that's all to your advantage. I'm sure :-P
17:10:58  <planetmaker> At least that is probably what PR tells
17:11:10  <Rubidium> yup
17:12:14  <Rubidium> well, actually when they made the change there was a non-normal IC from Enschede to Hengelo (where the German train "enters") and back
17:12:31  <Rubidium> so the missing-the-bus didn't happen back then
17:12:42  <Rubidium> and later they stopped with that train
17:13:18  <planetmaker> meh
17:34:09  <Yexo> DJNekkid: , nfo generated from that nml:
17:34:21  <Yexo> the irm-part is not yet done
17:34:23  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX+ - Revision 3: Update: Update Makefile to r87 <> || Example NewGRF Project - Revision 87: Feature: Allow also projects which use NML <>
17:34:37  <Yexo> but from what I've seen that's mostly copy/paste from the VIRM part
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18:20:49  <Ammler> hmm, I should hurry with using nginx on port 80 :-)
18:21:02  <Ammler> people start to link with port 81...
18:21:50  <planetmaker> :-)
18:22:46  <planetmaker> @base 16 10 57
18:22:46  <Webster> planetmaker: 87
18:24:17  <Ammler> planetmaker: FYI, you could just link without :81 and the link would also work, if I have made that change :-)
18:24:31  <planetmaker> yes :-)
18:24:53  <planetmaker> But it's easily forgotten: copy&paste link from browser. Post-editing... well.
19:06:54  <planetmaker> Hirundo: Yexo can I already access general variables / "ttdp" flags?
19:07:31  <Yexo> yes
19:07:45  <Yexo> ttdpatch flags cannot be checked in an action2, right?
19:07:50  <Yexo> only with actionD
19:08:27  <Hirundo> Action 7/9 condition 0/1 IIRC
19:09:47  <Yexo> that isn't implemented yet, you can check the current year for example with param[0x81], but that doesn't work for the ttdpatch flags
19:13:51  <planetmaker> but climate would work?
19:14:17  <Yexo> I think so, just try to use param[0x83]
19:15:20  <Yexo> or use current_climate if you want to use it in a varaction2 chain
19:23:11  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 109: Add: implement a few extra vehicle vars <>
19:37:47  <DJNekkid> Yexo: looks good
19:38:33  <DJNekkid> i bet it will help alot of people :)
19:39:13  <DJNekkid> atleast people who are used to "higher leverl" languages...:)
19:40:12  <planetmaker> @base 16 10 78
19:40:13  <Webster> planetmaker: 120
19:40:28  <planetmaker> @calc 2**120
19:40:28  <Webster> planetmaker: 1329227995784915872903807060280344576
19:40:34  <planetmaker> hm. :-P
19:41:00  <DJNekkid> 120 bits of what?
19:43:23  <DJNekkid> planetmaker: how come the nfo for opengfx+ is backwards?
19:43:27  <DJNekkid> i mean, starts with action3
19:43:38  <DJNekkid> 4-3-1-2
19:43:43  <DJNekkid> 4-3-1-2-0 actually
19:44:56  <planetmaker> that's how it works it seems
19:46:54  <Yexo> planetmaker: what url do I use to checkout ogfxplus?
19:47:31  <planetmaker> same as nml but ogfxplus
19:47:58  <planetmaker> default =
19:49:00  <planetmaker> the make install is nice and comfortable ;-)
19:49:12  <planetmaker> but I fear the dep check does not yet work for nml files
19:51:15  <Yexo> it seems to work fine
19:52:31  <DJNekkid> @base 16 10 17
19:52:31  <Webster> DJNekkid: 23
20:01:35  <Ammler> pm, you were faster :-P
20:01:55  <Ammler> (do not link "here", link for example readme ;-)
20:01:55  <planetmaker> :-)
20:03:30  <planetmaker> better?
20:03:35  <Yexo> DJNekkid: the order is 1-2-0-4-3, which is valid as far as I'm aware
20:04:08  <planetmaker> However it is, it's valid and accepted.
20:04:41  <Ammler> 4 doesn't matter, does it?
20:09:42  <planetmaker> action4 is quite unproblematic wrt placement, yes
20:12:32  <Yexo> planetmaker: including STR_MY_INDUSTRY_NAME / STR_ERROR_INVALID_PARAMETER / STR_NULL in ogfxplus doesn't make sense
20:13:59  <planetmaker> that's true
20:14:21  <planetmaker> Inherited old code ;-)
20:14:38  <Yexo> yep :)
20:14:46  <Yexo> what was the wagon override you wanted?
20:15:13  <planetmaker> livery override
20:15:28  <planetmaker> the wagons in that set need to work only for the engine within that set
20:15:28  <Yexo> yes, but where should I put it?
20:15:30  <Yexo> in the nml code
20:15:53  <planetmaker> thus the wagons are an enhancement to the default (arctic) pax and mail car
20:16:11  <planetmaker> providing the livery override for that particular engine
20:16:12  <Yexo> so the wagon should be only attachable to engines from the same set? that sounds like a job for a "can attach wagon"-callback
20:16:23  <planetmaker> it shouldn't be a new wagon.
20:16:30  <planetmaker> Re-definition of the old
20:16:38  <Yexo> oh, it should use the default graphics normally but special graphics if attached to that engine
20:16:42  <planetmaker> yes
20:17:26  <planetmaker> it wouldn't make sense to have n pax wagons separately purchasable - one for each engine or so ;-)
20:17:38  <planetmaker> that looks bad ingame
20:17:49  <Yexo> I agree
20:17:59  <Yexo> and you probably don't want to include the default wagon graphics in ogrxplus either
20:19:21  <planetmaker> I haven't quite decided upon that, but I don't think I want
20:19:51  <planetmaker> both makes sense: If it gets included it's consistent regardless of baseset, but much bigger. And less compatible
20:21:18  <planetmaker> Feel free to commit, if you finish(ed) playing ;-)
20:22:02  <Yexo> is it possible at all in a vehicle action2 to refer to ttd sprites?
20:22:09  <Yexo> frosch123: ^^?
20:23:27  <Yexo> hmm, if you left out the action3 it'd take the default graphics
20:28:49  <planetmaker> hm, otherwise it needs (for the pax wagon), this file:
20:28:52  <Ammler> planetmaker: please do give bnc users the port 6697 to our bouncer and only if that doesn't work the alternative 6667
20:29:00  <planetmaker> hu?
20:29:29  <Ammler> I made that port for andythenorth exclusively ;-)
20:29:42  <planetmaker> :-P
20:30:49  <planetmaker> and offsets like this
20:31:17  <planetmaker> eh... yeah. offsets :-P
20:32:10  <planetmaker> <-- last lines here
20:38:54  <Ammler> planetmaker: i shall make a mirror access for jupix 32bpp repo, add to openttd or new user?
20:39:15  <Ammler> it would then give some nightlies
20:39:24  <Ammler> 70MB files :-)
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20:45:20  <planetmaker> Ammler: I wouldn't mind. It could be tested
20:45:44  <planetmaker> The traffic is as low as in February, so it's no issue as far as I see it.
20:46:03  <Ammler> yeah, traffic is no issue for sure :-)
20:46:31  <Ammler> hmm, reminds me to reenable torrents, if I didn't already
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20:48:36  <Ammler> ratio for suse iso is "just" 150 :-)
20:49:14  <Ammler> the 32bpp pack had a ratio of 25
20:49:23  <Ammler> so there were some downloads :-)
20:50:16  <frosch123> Yexo: planetmaker: if you want to add a wagon override for passenger wagons you also have to include the original graphics. you cannot mix action1 graphics with default graphics. there is only one action0 for the wagon, and there you disable the original graphics with setting the sprite-property to fd resp. ff
20:50:39  <planetmaker> bah. That's bad news
20:50:46  <Yexo> frosch123: and if you don't include a normal action3?
20:51:13  <Yexo> openttd will fallback to the default graphics in that case, but I haven't tested yet if the wagon overrides still work'
20:51:59  <Yexo> yep, that works
20:52:22  <Yexo> <- I've implemented this syntax now
20:53:13  <frosch123> i do not really know property 12 either. quite possible that ttdp and ottd differ there, as property 12 is just "so useless" :)
20:53:31  <Yexo> it's quite likely it fails in ttdpatch
20:53:41  <planetmaker> Yexo: how do I know which engine triggers the override
20:53:44  <Yexo> but then ttdpatch has so many "stupid" restrictions
20:53:45  <planetmaker> ?
20:53:50  <Yexo> planetmaker: the last one with a graphics block
20:54:01  <planetmaker> ok...
20:54:10  <Yexo> the action3 for the liverry override has to follow a graphics block directly according to the spec
20:54:16  <planetmaker> wouldn't it make sense to put that all together in the item thingy?
20:54:47  <Yexo> hmm, yes, but in the engine item then, not in the wagon item
20:55:00  <Yexo> that would conceptually be nicer, but too hard to translate to proper nfo
20:55:23  <planetmaker> yes, in the engine item. Well, never mind the :-)
20:56:45  <frosch123> how to different graphics for different cargos + purchase list work?
20:56:52  <frosch123> s/to/do/
20:57:39  <Yexo> <- like that
20:58:04  <Yexo> that isn't fully implemented yet as the syntax for the cargotable is not yet final
21:04:35  * andythenorth wonders what he's forgotten when releasing FISH 0.4
21:04:37  <andythenorth> ??
21:04:59  <planetmaker> andythenorth: upload to
21:05:08  <andythenorth> oh yeah
21:05:15  <andythenorth> I need to do some scp magic :P
21:11:11  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 110: Feature: implement livery overrides <>
21:31:23  <Hirundo> Yexo: planetmaker <- please vote on template syntax
21:32:23  <Yexo> definitely not option 2
21:32:38  <Yexo> is the number of parameters fixed to 2 or variable?
21:32:48  <Hirundo> variable
21:32:53  <Yexo> good :)
21:33:01  <Yexo> option 1 looks good
21:33:40  <planetmaker> I agree ^
21:33:41  <Yexo> but technially you can do that with a gpp #define too
21:34:07  <planetmaker> Yexo: that's more difficult. gpp #define doesn't easily allow calculations
21:34:20  <Hirundo> NML does
21:34:23  <Yexo> planetmaker: the calculations are already done by nml
21:34:24  <planetmaker> yep
21:35:07  <planetmaker> well... not requiring gcc for this is no backdraw ;-)
21:35:15  <Yexo> agreed :)
21:35:44  <Hirundo> ^^ It is a hassle for the average windows user, myself included
21:35:54  <planetmaker> :-) that's why
21:38:43  <Rubidium> yes... shinkansen must run on its own tracks
21:39:12  <Yexo> let's get rid of the nforenum requirement then :p
21:40:00  <Yexo> would a requirement to start every nml file with "sprite_count;" be ok? that we also base grf files could be supported without syntax changes
21:40:09  <Rubidium> nforenum are its tracks (and grfcodec its ballast)
21:49:12  <planetmaker> you've weired analogies
21:50:40  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:51:24  * Yexo wonders how difficult it would be to let nml write grf files directly
21:55:49  *** ODM has quit IRC
21:56:41  <planetmaker> :-)
21:57:07  <Ammler> what else then renumber does renum?
21:57:19  <planetmaker> sanity checks on many levels
21:57:52  <Yexo> and spitting out a lot of invalid (=outdated) errors
21:58:00  <planetmaker> hehe
21:58:45  <planetmaker> it must be frustrating to maintain a programme where the main use broke away and it got kind of feature-hijacked by your competition ;-)
22:12:44  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: 32bpp-ez-patches - Revision 34: svn 19648:-Cleanup: remove unnecessary diff clutter <>
22:12:46  <Yexo> are you talking about ttdpatch?
22:12:52  <Yexo> I thought nforenum at first, but that doesn't make sense
22:14:14  <planetmaker> well. nforenum/grfcodec were original tools for ttdp and feature-driven by it.
22:14:24  <planetmaker> Now they're feature-driven by OpenTTD
22:14:40  <Yexo> yes, true
22:14:51  <Yexo> but "where the main use broke away" that is not true for either
22:15:12  <planetmaker> bad wording, agreed
22:17:16  <Ammler> hmm, is there a discussion I miss?
22:19:33  <planetmaker> no, just the desire to make nml a full-feature grf coding tool ;-)
22:19:50  <planetmaker> s/grfcodec+renum/nml/ ;-)
22:26:48  <Hirundo> template support is done
22:27:16  <Yexo> cool :)
22:27:40  <Yexo> I'm moving ConstantNumeric, Parameter and Variable from to to avoic cyclic imports
22:28:05  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 112: Change: write the correct sprite numbers instead of always -1 <> || NFO Meta Language - Revision 111: Change: require "sprite_count;" at the top of every nml file th... <>
22:29:16  <planetmaker> you two do a great job there :-)
22:29:38  <planetmaker> and I watch robocup final :-P
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22:37:21  <Hirundo> templates will be committed tomorrow btw, I have bad experiences with post-midnight commits :)
22:37:39  <Yexo> ok
22:38:52  <Ammler> :-D
22:41:35  <planetmaker> :-)
22:44:46  <Hirundo> Yexo: Does the sprite count count itself? (off by one alert!)
22:44:59  <Yexo> should it?
22:45:27  <Hirundo> According to, no
22:45:30  <Rubidium> the major problem of nforenum is, imo, that DaleStan's the only one maintaining it and he's not doing anything substantial lately
22:46:10  <Yexo> thanks, fixed that
22:46:38  <Yexo> an even bigger problem is that he's not even applying bug-fix patches
22:46:38  <Hirundo> Is an explicit sprite_count really needed, or could we do that automagically?
22:47:04  <Yexo> Hirundo: grfs (not newgrfs, but baseset grfs) shouldn't have the sprite count
22:47:37  <Hirundo> These contain just raw, real sprites?
22:47:46  <Yexo> not sure, I think so
22:48:59  <Hirundo> That will need some further tinkering, I think
22:51:34  <Hirundo> hmm.. there is currently no separating ; or , in sprite sets (Between real sprites / templates)
22:52:19  <planetmaker> Hirundo: Yexo the base sets have real and re-colour sprites
22:54:30  <Hirundo> Do recolour sprites appear only in base- or also in newgrfs?
22:55:26  <planetmaker> they can be in both
22:56:48  <Ammler> Hirundo: there is for example a pink2black.grf
22:57:58  <planetmaker> mauve2black ;-)
22:58:15  <Ammler> yes, that too
22:58:27  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 114: Fix: the sprite count sprite doesn't count for the number of sp... <> || NFO Meta Language - Revision 113: Codechange: move all expression-classes to to avoid... <>
22:58:29  <planetmaker> but as male we need not distinguish more than 16 colours :-P
22:59:18  <Rubidium> oh, damn... I know only two
22:59:20  <Ammler> I guess, the night conversation does also use it
22:59:22  <Rubidium> ugly and nice
23:00:09  * Hirundo wishes you a pleasant conversation and a good night
23:00:18  <planetmaker> :-)
23:00:26  * planetmaker does wish the same to all
23:13:23  *** KenjiE20 has quit IRC
23:28:30  <Yexo> Hirundo: I hope you won't have too much trouble merging your patch to my latest commit
23:32:42  <Ammler> yeah, good night all
23:45:46  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 115: Change: move all code to the nml/ directory <>

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