Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 23rd May 2010:
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00:00:22  <Ammler> when do you merge without commit?
00:01:31  <planetmaker> always
00:01:46  <planetmaker> first merge. Then commit the merge
00:01:58  <planetmaker> and between those two steps one has to fix the merge conlicts
00:02:42  <Ammler> ok, and you run openttd to confirm the commit?
00:03:01  <planetmaker> I test the merge of course before I commit it
00:03:17  <planetmaker> it's nothing else than running a modified version
00:03:43  <Ammler> with 2 heads
00:04:02  <planetmaker> the number of heads is irrelevant. Only the current repo state counts
00:04:18  <planetmaker> and that is two parents
00:04:33  <planetmaker> which gives a funny combined hash
00:04:50  <planetmaker> and the latter is only thing which fails
00:05:27  <planetmaker> it could pick any of those two and call it modified version. Which is true
00:06:24  <Ammler> well, I assume it gives you both hashes
00:08:05  <Ammler> you have btw. still not pushed the newgrf-makefile release enabler :-P
00:08:09  <Ammler> and good night
00:18:19  <planetmaker> good night :-)
00:44:04  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 187: Fix: 'else if' blocks were broken <> || NFO Meta Language - Revision 186: Change: properly indent blocks when writing nml <>
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07:08:56  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX - Feature #957 (New): forrest <>
07:11:26  <Alberth> Webster:  s/forrest/forest/ please
07:12:05  <planetmaker> hm :-)
07:13:03  <planetmaker> it actually works to update it :-)
07:13:26  <planetmaker> would you rather like the current or the ECS forest?
07:15:12  * Alberth tests
07:20:15  <Alberth> I like the OpenGFX forest more, the ECS forest looks too cute. Maybe also, because here, forests here look like the OpenGRFX forests, not the ECS ones.
07:21:27  <Alberth> also, why does one need to 'apply changes' in the NewGRF gui?  Very annoying.
07:21:29  <planetmaker> hm
07:21:55  <planetmaker> one does not need afaik
07:22:06  <planetmaker> at least not in main menu
07:22:26  <planetmaker> different for ingame, maybe...
07:22:50  <Alberth> I never tried that. in that case we can disable/remove the button :)
07:23:50  <planetmaker> from the main menu it's indeed not necessary
07:24:18  <Alberth> yes, I remember some magic happening in the destructor now.
07:24:19  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX - Feature #957 (New): forest <>
07:24:37  <planetmaker> But it's necessary (and IMHO required) for grf changes ingame
07:25:00  <planetmaker> it's the button you need to click in order to get the warning ;-)
07:25:14  <Alberth> I am not sure why we even have it, is it such a needed feature?
07:25:40  <Alberth> it is causing a lot of broken save games that we get reports about
07:26:10  <planetmaker> Well, yes, it makes sense
07:26:13  * Alberth ponders connecting the feature to the grf debug setting
07:26:57  <planetmaker> Otherwise the scenarios get outdated even quicker. Or consider a (more sensibe IMHO) scenario designer who didn't add vehicle sets
07:27:06  <planetmaker> so that players can add it themselves later
07:28:15  <planetmaker> The real problem there is that it's save and completely harmless sometimes and as wrong as it can get in other cases
07:28:56  <Alberth> s/save/safe/  I guess :)
07:29:00  <planetmaker> I don't know a good method / criterion so far how to distinguish that programatically without understanding what the newgrf does
07:29:04  <planetmaker> yes :-P
07:29:08  <andythenorth> Alberth: I am in favour of removing pointless buttons :P
07:29:27  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's not (always)
07:29:32  <andythenorth> but that one seems useful?  Changing newgrfs will easily crash a game....I'd rather not have that happen
07:29:38  <planetmaker> ^
07:29:41  <andythenorth> just because I made a mistake
07:29:48  <planetmaker> but changing it from the main menu doesn't need it
07:29:49  <Alberth> let's remove all of them, then I am sure we got all pointless buttons :p
07:30:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it doesn't seem worth having the GUI behave differently in different contexts.  Player still has to close the newgrf window?  Or at least, until we finish the tabbed game setup GUI
07:30:55  <planetmaker> Alberth: part of the newgrf problem might be gone, if newgrfs get a version and one allows to update an existing newgrf
07:31:03  <Alberth> unfortunately, this stuff needs a much deeper understanding of grf and the simulation than I have
07:31:29  <planetmaker> then it might make perfect sense to forbid to remove newgrf (the most common cause for crashes)
07:31:37  <planetmaker> and other weired behaviour that is
07:32:00  <andythenorth> That would be a problem for developers.....but could be allowed only if newgrf debugging enabled?
07:32:11  <andythenorth> I need to remove grfs from in-game sometimes
07:32:23  <planetmaker> andythenorth: not as it's currently IMHO
07:32:41  <planetmaker> otherwise everyone enables newgrf debuging and we're there where we're now
07:32:44  <Alberth> hmm, yeah, only forbidding removal may be better
07:33:07  <planetmaker> allowing removal with debuging enabled does make sense
07:33:17  <planetmaker> (it should be possible somehow)
07:33:18  * Alberth nods
07:33:21  <andythenorth> how about enabling newgrf debugging requires recompiling ottd? :P
07:33:37  <planetmaker> nope
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07:34:11  <andythenorth> why do I remove a grf from a savegame?
07:34:15  <Alberth> then any problem with newgrf debugging is by definition a modfied game
07:34:26  <planetmaker> andythenorth: in order to update it
07:34:37  <planetmaker> or because it does not do what you hoped it did
07:34:46  <andythenorth> I use it to flip between releases and nightlies
07:34:49  <andythenorth> for testing
07:34:49  <LA> well good morning people
07:34:50  <LA> planetmaker, about #957
07:34:55  <planetmaker> or because you just clicked new game and only then configured your newgrf (a lot of people do that obviously!)
07:34:57  <LA> wouldn't that go into ogfx+?
07:35:06  <planetmaker> LA: it could be either
07:35:09  <Alberth> andythenorth: you know what you are doing, unlike many others
07:35:15  <planetmaker> climate-dependence is easy also in OpenGFX
07:35:36  <andythenorth> I'm not generally in favour of the 'feature' of removing.  I just don't want to lose it for developers.
07:35:38  <andythenorth> hmmm
07:35:39  <LA> well, didn't think about that
07:35:44  <LA> but the forest
07:35:52  <LA> is only one tile
07:35:55  <Alberth> planetmaker: yeah, configuring the grfs before clicking 'new game' is weird
07:35:59  <LA> which has different states
07:36:07  <planetmaker> Alberth: I'm working on that ;-)
07:36:22  <andythenorth> also, if set A disables itself in the presence of set B, but I want to use set A....I need to be able to remove set B
07:36:24  <LA> so you couldn't have cabins etc.
07:36:35  <planetmaker> andythenorth: exactly
07:36:40  <Alberth> andythenorth: then you should start a new game imho
07:36:44  <planetmaker> LA: right. Then it's OpenGFX+ only
07:36:52  <andythenorth> and I don't find out what sets disable themselves until I click 'apply'
07:37:19  <Alberth> I am not even sure that happens
07:37:25  <planetmaker> Alberth: that's very annoying if you design scenarios :-)
07:37:52  <Alberth> planetmaker: it stops scenario makers from selecting grfs :)
07:38:03  <planetmaker> :-)
07:38:12  <andythenorth> also if you just got a really nice random map....or you realise that set A doesn't transport FIRS cargos, but won't play nicely with set B :|
07:38:28  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps we should only accept scenarios without grfs loaded :)
07:38:53  <andythenorth> if there's nothing constructed from newgrf A it should be removable, otherwise not....
07:38:59  <planetmaker> Alberth: it might make sense. Somewhat. That'd be landscapes
07:39:19  <planetmaker> But industries and towns... they're newgrfs and can (currently) make a big part of scenario design
07:39:29  * andythenorth never plays scenarios.  But don't people like placing industries and such?
07:39:59  <Alberth> I can imagine a scenario where you design the placement of industries
07:40:24  <Alberth> ie coal at the left, power plants at the right, in the middle a big blob of water
07:40:32  <planetmaker> just to phantasize: it'd be nice, if a scenario allows changes without detriment, if the feature hasn't been used
07:40:43  <planetmaker> of course, Alberth :-)
07:41:06  <Alberth> yeah, but that is then quite limited, industry grfs have no chance, as you said
07:41:43  <planetmaker> if you placed industries: no industry newgrf change
07:41:59  <Alberth> also, the game does a lot of stuff internally to store the available vehicles, industries, etc. Those then also need to be removable
07:41:59  <planetmaker> if you placed towns: no town newgrf change. Though that is annoying, too :-)
07:42:06  <andythenorth> fail gracefully?  Just revert to empty tiles if grf is missing?
07:42:12  <planetmaker> yes. That's the problem
07:42:33  <planetmaker> in scenario removing stuff from non-existing newgrfs might make sense
07:42:41  <Alberth> andythenorth: there are hooks to the internal data structures
07:42:48  <Alberth> s/to/from/
07:43:01  <andythenorth> sounds like a headache
07:43:02  <Alberth> that is where the problem really is
07:43:30  <andythenorth> I'm in principle in favour of preventing adding / removing newgrfs to a running game....except that it's useful.
07:44:05  <Alberth> I like it, but I don't want it :)
07:44:26  <andythenorth> the uses are mostly a bandage on other problems, like set incompatibility, and lack of wagons for industry set cargos
07:44:39  <andythenorth> if those were addressed....
07:44:46  <planetmaker> Alberth: in that we all three agree
07:44:57  * andythenorth looks for the newgrf proposal by frosch123
07:45:25  <planetmaker> I think most of those problems might be gone, if the newgrf selection becomes part of the new game procedure
07:45:27  <Alberth>
07:45:47  <Alberth> andythenorth:  ^
07:45:52  <andythenorth> thanks
07:46:15  <planetmaker> I was shocked at how sloppily newgrf changes are treated when I had a look at the current "pass-on-the-savegame" in the German forum. Supposedly it was created by one of the 'oldies' there - and still A LOT of newgrf changes.
07:46:19  <planetmaker> especially initially
07:46:24  <Alberth> planetmaker: a more logical order in setting up the game would help a lot indeed
07:46:26  <planetmaker> and the game shows it
07:46:32  <andythenorth> if newgrf list had 'pre-flight' checks that would be useful
07:46:44  * andythenorth thinks of classes of warning
07:46:55  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I guess that's difficult
07:47:01  <andythenorth> "grf A defines cargo X, but no vehicles to transport it"
07:47:16  <planetmaker> but: I'd like it, too
07:47:30  <planetmaker> it'd require to  test the newgrf setup in a sandbox
07:47:39  <planetmaker> and revert to previous state, if not accepted
07:47:41  <andythenorth> probably better use of time than trying to help debug games where newgrfs have been changed
07:47:57  <planetmaker> yeah
07:48:33  <Alberth> andythenorth: such changes are logged in the save game, and we are quite quickly done with such games :)
07:48:50  <Alberth> but it happens a lot
07:48:50  <andythenorth> "both grf B and grf C define cargo 'CATS' - this may cause problems"
07:49:18  <Alberth> it is also a newgrf problem in the sense that there is no policy to prevent such conflicts
07:49:42  <andythenorth> "grf E and grf D define vehicles in the same slot - do you want to enable the engine pool?"
07:50:20  <Alberth> I would assume you want both vehicles
07:50:42  <andythenorth> is engine pool on by default?
07:50:45  <andythenorth> and why turn it off?
07:50:53  <Alberth> but such stuff makes the code more coplicated
07:51:06  <Alberth> andythenorth: I don't know what the engine pool does
07:51:26  <Alberth> but if a user says he wants E and D, I think he expects to get them both
07:51:31  <planetmaker> Alberth: complicated code is your / our problem. Making it easy and understandable for the user: that should be the goal
07:51:48  * Alberth nods
07:51:49  <andythenorth> engine pool should be on by default if not already.
07:51:59  <andythenorth> in fact, the setting should be removed from the gui and moved to config txt only
07:52:04  <planetmaker> engine pool separates vehicle newgrfs from eachother
07:52:24  * planetmaker agrees with andythenorth
07:52:34  <andythenorth> the only reason I can think of using it is for certain TTDP newgrf authors who are sulking about it
07:52:40  <planetmaker> :-P
07:52:46  <andythenorth> (the GUI setting to turn it off that is)
07:53:19  <andythenorth> it's basically a setting that has annoyed a couple of people that think TT is a train game where they get to define the whole trainset
07:53:27  <andythenorth> and they've taken their toys home with them :P
07:56:56  <Alberth> like the GUI style guide, it would be good to create some structure in this problem first imho, and write it down
07:59:45  * andythenorth agress
07:59:53  <andythenorth> umm agrees
08:00:12  <planetmaker> hm... might also be a wiki page?
08:00:20  * planetmaker agrees, too
08:00:30  <andythenorth> I think it needs to fit with what frosch was thinking.....the understanding of the problems by frosch is a teensy bit better than mine :p
08:00:55  <planetmaker> yeah... few (anyone?) who understand it better, presumably
08:03:15  <Alberth> andythenorth: that's one step further I think, First understand the problem, then find a direction out of it
08:03:35  <Alberth> but yes, frosch probably has the best insight
08:04:52  <andythenorth> the newgrf stuff came from some conversation about  this with  frosch ;)
08:06:51  <Alberth> so he just forgot to write down the problem he is trying to solve :p
08:08:01  <planetmaker> :-P
08:08:13  <planetmaker> hm... also a wiki page about that maybe :-)
08:08:17  <planetmaker> so many...
08:09:17  <Alberth> I don't have enough structure in the problem to begin writing, but perhaps you do
08:10:05  <planetmaker> I'm not sure. But the try is not penalized, I guess
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08:32:08  * LA has an urge to draw something
08:33:06  <planetmaker> LA: draw us a field with hay bales
08:33:18  <planetmaker> I promised that feature for 0.3 :-)
08:33:50  <andythenorth> foobar drew haybales for FIRS, but they have been....rejected :)
08:33:58  <andythenorth> for opengfx that is
08:34:20  <planetmaker> have they? I didn't see them
08:34:32  <planetmaker> well, it needs to fit the fields
08:36:44  <planetmaker> LA: another urgent issue: light signals
08:36:52  <planetmaker> the light is too small for all of them
08:37:00  <planetmaker> especially the non-pbs signals
08:40:08  <planetmaker> LA: otherwise another secret wish of mine is: a new steel plant. The current OpenGFX version looks iMHO too smooth and doesn't quite fit
08:40:09  <andythenorth> planetmaker: look at the FIRS mixed farm
08:40:30  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have permission to use the steel mill by Oz for FIRS.
08:40:34  <andythenorth> which means it's GPL
08:40:40  <planetmaker> for fields? Hm, I actually might :-)
08:40:54  <planetmaker> But I'm not entirely sure FIRS style matches OpenGFX style
08:41:10  <planetmaker> FIRS is more small-scale than OpenGFX industries
08:41:14  <andythenorth> it's odd.  some people insist it does.  some insist it doesn't
08:41:26  <planetmaker> :-)
08:41:48  <andythenorth> simon foster was a bit variable on scale anyway
08:41:55  <planetmaker> yeah
08:42:04  <andythenorth> the default haybales are the size of the garages next to houses
08:42:20  <planetmaker> which is ok. it's then a pile of hay bales
08:42:26  <andythenorth> it's a haystack :)
08:42:30  <planetmaker> do you have a link to that steel mill?
08:43:20  <planetmaker> or rather: its sprites, could you provide me with them?
08:43:36  <LA> the hayballed fields should be from 602 - 639 in terrain04.pcx?
08:43:45  <andythenorth> planetmaker: steel mill is in FIRS repo - pull first
08:43:58  <andythenorth> sources/industry_graphics/steel_mill
08:44:06  <planetmaker> ah, didn't know that. Thx
08:44:15  <andythenorth> it's totally different to opengfx
08:44:23  <andythenorth> but very well drawn
08:44:28  <planetmaker> LA: I'd prefer them in their own file
08:44:38  <planetmaker> OpenGFX has too many too huge graphics files
08:44:49  <planetmaker> but the file sounds like it could be there, yes :-)
08:44:59  <LA> gah
08:45:12  <LA> I just meant that which sprites should I take as the base
08:45:17  <planetmaker> :-)
08:45:26  <LA> as there are a lot of farm sprites
08:45:35  <LA> farmland*
08:45:57  <LA> so which stage of them should have hayballs
08:46:45  <planetmaker> yes. But I have no idea so far either
08:46:56  * planetmaker looks
08:48:16  <planetmaker> and finds.... a large chunk of undocumented farm fields
08:48:59  <planetmaker> <-- that's all I know, too
08:49:36  <andythenorth> you could do with an in-game sprite debug tool :P
08:49:48  <planetmaker> ! yes !
08:49:59  <planetmaker> LA: exactly. Get a nightly and make use of that!
08:50:20  <planetmaker> in console: set newgrf_developer_tools 1
08:50:32  <planetmaker> and then you can use the sprite picker (from the info icon in the main toolbar)
08:50:53  <planetmaker> that will give you the number :-)
08:53:31  <planetmaker> LA: sprite 42787
08:53:33  <planetmaker> 4278
08:53:37  <planetmaker> in the base grf
08:54:03  <planetmaker> and 4279
08:54:26  <planetmaker> probably at least till 4290
08:54:57  <planetmaker> 4291
08:57:17  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 843: Add: steel mill sprites by Oz <>
08:57:29  <planetmaker> LA: so those sprites in the file I linked in lines 180 to 20x
09:02:20  <LA> hmm, that doesn't make much sense :P
09:02:23  <LA> to me
09:02:39  <LA> I'd think they were 621 - 639
09:03:43  <LA> not 609 - 628
09:03:51  <LA> doesn't matter
09:03:54  <LA> thoug
09:03:56  <LA> h
09:05:06  <planetmaker> Well, I played with the sprite picker with the original set. and the numbers I showed had hay bales on them
09:05:20  <planetmaker> but indeed it doesn't matter much at this stage
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09:29:27  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenTTD-GUI - Revision 15261: - Fix: Always allocate sufficient pixels real estate for the height... <> || OpenTTD-GUI - Revision 15260: - Codechange: Remove duplicate code <>
09:45:26  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 844: Feature: improved graphics for Furniture Factory <>
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10:31:25  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 845: Add: pnfo file for Filling Station <>
10:47:30  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 847: Change: disabled production cb, enable Fuel Oil acc... <> || FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 846: Change: basic code for Filling Station <>
10:56:26  * Alberth gives a lot of \n characters to Webster
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10:59:14  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you now really call it "filling station"?!
10:59:31  <planetmaker> which is, btw, a word I now read for the first time
11:03:29  <planetmaker> hm... the online dictionaries know that. But my offline book-dictionaries only know petrol and gas station
11:04:03  <andythenorth>
11:04:04  <Webster> Title: Filling station - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at
11:04:37  <planetmaker> I know what it is. I'm telling you it's the less common word
11:04:47  <planetmaker> And something *I* don't understand without looking up
11:05:00  <andythenorth> I fancied gas station myself :D
11:05:12  <planetmaker> Not that I'm a reference for good English. But I've been living in NZ for a year and don't know that, though I drove a car there.
11:05:13  <andythenorth> most of the names are vaguely US anyway
11:05:38  <andythenorth> Meat Packer instead of Abbatoir
11:05:42  <planetmaker> and it was always gas or petrol station
11:05:58  <planetmaker> :-( @ ignoring translation purposes
11:06:40  <planetmaker> that's quite against the rules of the streamlined UI you advocate otherwise
11:06:53  <planetmaker> supply an american translation then
11:07:46  <planetmaker> btw... meat packer - though easily understandable - is not know by my online dictionaries :-)
11:08:36  <planetmaker> which is abbatoir or slaughterhouse
11:08:49  <planetmaker> -b +t
11:09:00  <andythenorth> It's definitely an americanism
11:09:07  <Ammler> planetmaker: [02:07] <Ammler> you have btw. still not pushed the newgrf-makefile release enabler 
11:09:12  <Ammler> andythenorth: you too :-P
11:09:26  <Ammler> oh, and hello you all :-)
11:09:28  <andythenorth> Ammler: is it a ticket for FIRS?
11:09:32  <planetmaker> what do I have to add then?
11:10:01  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I am quite happy to have UK and US English language files.  Maybe not right now...but they should be added.
11:10:10  <Ammler> andythenorth: will you do, if I add a ticket? :-D
11:10:17  <andythenorth> Ammler: probably
11:10:24  <andythenorth> I prefer the americanisms in most cases....same as I prefer US trains + trucks :)
11:10:25  <planetmaker> yes. But get the default naming "right" from the start, andythenorth might be a good idea, eh?
11:10:30  <planetmaker> And not a "funny" mixture
11:10:36  <andythenorth> too late to change most of the code now
11:10:38  <planetmaker> Which we actually got graded down for at school
11:10:45  <planetmaker> in the code. But not the naming
11:10:56  <Ammler>
11:10:57  <planetmaker> and even in the code it's a simple search and replace
11:11:37  <andythenorth> ah but what's "correct"?  A lot of the industries are based on North America ;)
11:11:52  <planetmaker> correct is british English
11:12:08  <planetmaker> irrespective of where the industries are taken from
11:12:27  <andythenorth> Hmmm
11:12:38  <planetmaker> Otherwise the argument would be "use AE also in the Chinese translation"
11:12:46  <andythenorth> NARS 2 doesn't have "Passenger Coaches".  It has "Passenger Cars"
11:12:59  <planetmaker> it has no translation
11:13:08  <Rubidium> for some reason language #0 is AE, language #1 is BE
11:13:23  <Rubidium> ask Chris why though
11:13:56  <planetmaker> also: others doing it "wrong" is no good reason to do it wrong yourself
11:14:00  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you already won the filling station argument - I am halfway through changing it :)
11:14:03  <planetmaker> 100 flies eat shit. So let's eat shit?
11:14:10  <andythenorth> but the rest...I don't know if I agree
11:14:11  <planetmaker> :-D
11:14:22  <Rubidium> and the "specs" say that if there is no translation, it falls back to American
11:14:50  <planetmaker> Rubidium: ehm? it falls back to english.txt, not to english_US.txt, no?
11:14:57  <planetmaker> or what's the point of those?
11:15:15  <andythenorth> Machine Shop -> Engineering Works :P
11:15:24  <andythenorth> Plastics Plant -> Plastics Factory
11:15:38  <andythenorth> Junk Yard -> Scrap Yard
11:15:46  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'm talking about the NewGRF specs
11:15:49  <andythenorth> Cement Plant -> Cement Work
11:15:52  <andythenorth> s
11:16:05  <planetmaker> :-)
11:16:13  <andythenorth> I dunno.  I don't like British English.  I'm surrounded by it.
11:16:19  <planetmaker> Rubidium: sounds pretty inconsistant and IMHO wrong
11:16:33  <planetmaker> got a link?
11:16:54  <planetmaker> nvm
11:17:37  <Rubidium> Action4
11:18:01  <planetmaker> yeah, I'm there. I remembered that wrongly, I could have sworn it was vice versa :-)
11:18:40  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 848: Change: disabled production cb, enable PAX acceptan... <>
11:18:45  <Rubidium> anyhow, for fallbacks it isn't that important
11:28:14  <andythenorth> General Store -> Corner Shop
11:28:26  <andythenorth> Even though corner shops are rarely on corners in Britain
11:30:56  <planetmaker> he :-)
11:31:05  <planetmaker> grocery store?
11:31:13  <planetmaker> or doesn't that fit?
11:33:50  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 849: Change: renamed Filling Station to Gas Station in c... <>
11:56:04  * yorick needs to code stuff
11:56:22  <yorick> open for suggestions
11:56:30  <yorick> to
11:56:44  <Ammler> no, just you say "mäh" after :-P
11:57:03  <yorick> tell me anyways
11:58:01  <Ammler> a webconfigurator
11:58:32  <yorick> mäh
11:58:38  <planetmaker> :-P
11:58:42  <planetmaker> muh!
11:59:40  <Ammler> a wsgi to replace apache autoindex
12:00:27  <yorick> mah
12:01:08  <yorick> why that
12:01:22  <Ammler> a patch for openttd to save company passwords during restart/reload
12:01:42  <yorick> that's already somewhere
12:01:52  <Ammler> not "clean"
12:02:03  <Ammler> doesn't work here
12:03:07  <Ammler> (conflicted with logging patch)
12:03:54  <Alberth> generalize nml2nfo to accept and produce other formats (in the options)?
12:04:10  <yorick> Yexo is working on nml production
12:04:18  <Alberth> add an option to state where to pull the lng files from
12:04:45  <yorick> hmm I could try that first one
12:05:32  <Alberth> make an abstract base class for the actions
12:05:59  <yorick> I'd rather not touch the actions
12:06:01  <yorick> they're all sticky
12:06:17  <Alberth> so one can find what methods to code
12:06:38  <yorick> I'll work on autput format autodetection
12:06:55  <yorick> like nml2nfo -o thing.grf produces grf and nml2nfo -o thing.nml produces nml
12:07:44  <Alberth> then also add a --output-format=nml  option, to override any smart decisions your code may do
12:08:00  <yorick> how about multiple outputs
12:08:12  <Alberth> we have those?
12:08:14  <yorick> yes
12:08:32  <yorick> you can say nml2nfo --grf thing.grf --nfo thing.nfo
12:08:52  <Alberth> and then you get the same output in two different format?
12:08:55  <Alberth> *formats
12:08:56  <yorick> yes
12:09:00  <yorick> and you can even add --nml
12:09:21  <Ammler> can't it not simply check the extension?
12:09:25  <yorick> yes
12:09:29  <yorick> but Alberth wants an override
12:09:49  <Alberth> --grf-output=filename   perhaps ?
12:10:05  <Alberth> or --output-grf
12:10:27  <yorick> so what if one says nml2nfo -o thing.grf -o thing.nfo -o thing.nml oldthing.nml
12:10:39  <yorick> how would you specify the different outputs
12:11:17  <Alberth> nml2nfo --output-grf=thing.grf --output-nfo=thing.nfo --output-nml=thing.nml oldthing.nml
12:11:23  <Ammler> cat *.nml | nml2nfo | nfo2grf
12:11:37  <Ammler> cat *.nml | nml2nfo | nfo2grf > betgrfever.grf
12:11:39  <yorick> Alberth: we have that
12:11:48  <yorick> Alberth: that's ugly :-)
12:11:52  <yorick> Ammler: *
12:12:10  * Ammler wants nfo2grf :-P
12:12:23  <yorick> Ammler: waiting for yexo nfo detection code :)
12:12:27  <Alberth> it's called grfcodec :)
12:12:42  <Ammler> Alberth: that doesn't work with newest suse anymore
12:13:19  <yorick> who uses suse anyways
12:13:20  <Ammler> well, it does with -u
12:13:32  * yorick needs freebsd testers
12:13:36  <planetmaker> yorick: enough people
12:13:59  <Ammler> yorick: sometime other distros are on same level and then grfcodec won't work there either
12:14:02  <yorick> planetmaker: apparently not, because only after 2 years I get a bug report from openttd-python saying it doesn't work on freebsd
12:14:26  <Alberth> yorick: if we already have a way to specify the output format explicitly, simply add another generic --output option with output format detection
12:14:53  <planetmaker> yorick: where is freeBSD = SuSE?
12:14:59  <yorick> planetmaker: it isn't
12:15:09  <yorick> Alberth: ok then :-)
12:15:17  <Ammler> well, afaik DaleStan uses suse too
12:15:31  <Alberth> but an older one, apparently :)
12:15:48  <Ammler> yes, well, the suse I speak about isn't released
12:16:02  <planetmaker> he
12:16:09  <Ammler> will be end of june or so, or july
12:17:11  <Ammler> well, suse packages are "safe" from that, as they don't build self
12:17:17  <Ammler> they use the grf binaries
12:17:39  <Alberth> iek
12:21:08  <yorick> ew @ the way nml_output is implemented
12:25:38  <yorick> Alberth: done, submit patch?
12:26:24  <Alberth> yes please, I am doing wiki editing at the moment
12:33:55  <planetmaker> Ammler: how long are images preserved on
12:35:16  <Ammler> forever
12:35:18  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Patch #958 (New): Add -o option <>
12:35:20  <planetmaker> oh
12:35:37  <planetmaker> I mis-use it as image pastebin :-P
12:35:43  <Ammler> that's fine
12:35:56  <Ammler> such images could also be fun in 10 years :-P
12:36:02  <planetmaker> :-)
12:36:06  <yorick> ooh there's an openttdcoop image pastebin
12:36:08  * yorick ctrl-D
12:36:45  <planetmaker> I really appreciate to have that there, Ammler :-) It was a very useful thing that you installed that there :-)
12:36:54  <planetmaker> nice and easy way to show a quick screeny to others
12:36:56  <Ammler> 51M     /home/img/public_html/
12:37:07  <Ammler> so no real big waste :-)
12:37:12  <planetmaker> :-)
12:37:18  <planetmaker> not many use it. Luckily :-)
12:37:45  <Ammler> I made it for CB :-P
12:38:23  <Ammler> for grabbing
12:40:01  <yorick> hmm it doesn't allow uploading and executing php scripts?
12:40:25  <Ammler> we have other places for that
12:40:28  * Alberth is happy about that
12:41:47  * Ammler should learn php-fpm, so I can trash mod_php
12:41:57  <Ammler> he*
12:43:44  <Ammler> yorick: wanna code c?
12:43:57  <Ammler> you could customize nginx autoindex
12:44:09  <yorick> nah
12:44:22  <Ammler>
13:36:17  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenTTD-GUI - Revision 15262: - Change: Display heightmap and heightmap size in the same line <>
13:41:10  <yorick> Alberth: commit #958?
13:45:09  <Alberth> besides the minor lack of empty lines between 'def's, I don't feel I can decide on this by myself.
13:45:24  <Alberth> also, extension checking should be done in a case insensitive way
13:46:22  <Alberth> I only did 6-7 code changes, and I have no background in where the tool is supposed to go
13:46:46  <Alberth> your patch adds new functionality, but I cannot judge if it is the right direction, really
13:48:02  <Alberth> I don't like the --nfo and --nml options too much, to be honest, they seem to be too general tome.
13:48:43  <Alberth> why don't you recognize the .nml extension?
13:48:48  <Alberth> seems weird to exclude it
13:49:18  <Alberth> s/tome/to me/
13:49:47  <yorick> Alberth: because it's not done in the OutputXXX fashion
13:51:34  <yorick> changing --grf would break ogfxplus
13:53:05  <Alberth> the --grf is in line with the --nml and --nfo options, so that is fine. The problem however is that "--grf" doesn't say what it does. A user may think it is for input.
13:53:24  <Alberth> ie I think all 3 options have a bad name
13:53:50  <yorick> I can probably keep --grf for backwards compatibility
13:54:19  <Alberth> but again, I have too little idea about how and why of this software to make decisions that change or extend functionality
13:54:58  <Alberth> ie I didn't know --grf was being used :)
13:55:43  <Ammler> you don't need to keep compatibility to ogfxplus, just notify, if it needs syntax change
13:56:36  <yorick> it needs a makefile change
13:56:44  <Ammler> there is no point to keep backwards compatability before first release, imo
13:56:56  <Alberth> and not even after that imho
13:57:08  <Alberth> otherwise you never get rid of old stuff
13:57:19  <yorick> I think a -v switch could be nice
13:57:37  <Alberth> especially when a change is just adding a few characters to a line
13:57:44  <Alberth> yes, -v is always nice
13:57:52  <yorick> I think optparse does that by default
13:57:57  <yorick> just need to give it a version argument
13:58:10  <Alberth> and it pulls the version from the
13:58:25  <Alberth> or is that not a distutils file?
13:58:38  <yorick> it pulls the version from the nothing
13:58:44  <yorick> you need to give it the version yourself
13:59:29  <yorick> "Apart from that, version can contain anything you like. When you supply it, optparse automatically adds a "--version"  option to your parser. If it encounters this option on the command line, it expands your version string (by replacing "%prog"), prints it to stdout, and exits."
13:59:37  <yorick> "parser = OptionParser(usage="%prog [-f] [-q]", version="%prog 1.0")
13:59:40  <yorick> "
14:00:49  <Alberth> I tend to stick a version string in in my programs
14:02:04  <yorick> should probably use a more advanced version mechanism
14:02:23  <yorick> like the makefile does
14:06:26  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Patch #958: Add -o option <>
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14:52:45  <Ammler> andythenorth: I move your projects to the new compiler, as you didn't yet...
15:01:08  * yorick prefers setuptools
15:06:49  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 850: DevZone: enable new compiler <>
15:08:02  *** LA has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
15:08:06  <yorick> LA!
15:09:01  <LA> yorick!
15:10:34  <yorick> yorick!
15:10:49  <yorick> oh wait
15:11:20  * LA waits
15:12:29  <yorick> that's me!
15:13:28  <Brot6> fish: compile of 0.5 failed -
15:13:31  <LA> pfft, I was very close to writing a poem here
15:13:38  <yorick> ooh
15:13:40  <LA> haha
15:16:26  * Rubidium didn't either
15:17:02  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a update: airportsplus (r48), bros (r10), comic-houses (r69), nmts (r15), nutracks (r60), opensfx (r88), snowlinemod (r10)
15:18:39  <yorick> LA: what would you give me for a spotify invite?
15:20:36  <LA> spotify invite?
15:20:55  <yorick> people over here want spotify invites (a lot of people) and I have one
15:21:11  <yorick> someone already offered a invite
15:21:22  * planetmaker has no clue what that might be
15:21:38  <LA> but.. i.. don't want... a...... spotify invite
15:22:18  <yorick> yes you do
15:22:27  <yorick> everyone over here does
15:22:49  <LA> oh.. my bad, I should leave then? :D
15:23:37  <Ammler> yorick: is the only one using it
15:23:44  <yorick> I mean the physical here
15:24:46  <LA> so yorick's been offering the invite to everybody and everybody have refused?
15:24:48  <LA> haha
15:25:05  <yorick> no
15:25:12  <yorick> I'm determining what they should give me :)
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15:28:31  <Alberth> planetmaker: a new site with legal streaming music
15:29:00  <planetmaker> ?
15:29:06  <planetmaker> ah... spotify
15:32:47  * yorick will just post it in the "beg for spotify invites here" topic
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15:42:12  <Brot6> heqs: update from  to 0.6 done (50 errors) -
15:42:17  <Ammler> "Pseudo-terminal will not be allocated because stdin is not a terminal." <-- what is that?
15:44:48  <andythenorth> hmm
15:44:57  <andythenorth> FISH didn't build
15:45:06  <andythenorth> probably a file missing?
15:45:11  <andythenorth> Ammler: ^
15:45:42  <Ammler> the release, yes, might be
15:46:21  <Ammler> but you fixed that with nightlies already, afaik
15:47:21  <andythenorth> I'm confused.  Should I fix the error or not?
15:50:41  <Ammler> andythenorth: wait for 18:18
15:50:50  <Ammler> then you see, if nightlies work
15:51:02  <Brot6> firs: update from  to 0.1.2 done (1 errors) -
15:51:51  <Ammler> in half an hour
15:53:49  <Brot6> fish: compile of 0.5 failed -
15:54:00  <Ammler> ignore that ^
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15:55:06  <yorick> hello Yexo
15:55:18  <Yexo> hi yorick
15:58:28  <Ammler> somehow "the already tried but failed" detection fails for releases
15:59:40  <Ammler> I also need to save the revision, as the same tag can be used for different revs
16:07:26  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FISH - Revision 371: DevZone: enable new compiler <>
16:16:59  <Yexo> yorick: any reason -o shouldn't work for .nml?
16:18:07  <Brot6> 32bpp-extra: compile of r36 failed -
16:18:08  <Yexo> Alberth: the ValueError (issue #956) is just a leftover from earlier, you can just remove it
16:18:11  <Brot6> firs: compile of r850 failed -
16:18:13  <Brot6> fish: compile of r371 failed -
16:18:16  <Brot6> heqs: compile of r319 failed -
16:18:20  <Brot6> nml: update from r173 to r187 done -
16:18:24  <Brot6> test: compile of r16 failed -
16:18:26  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r542), ogfxplus (r18), opengfx (r458), openmsx (r57), worldairlinersset (r643)
16:23:45  <Ammler> :-(
16:24:16  <Yexo> yorick: you should also update the flag outputfile_given
16:24:58  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r542), 32bpp-extra (ERROR r36), firs (ERROR r850), fish (ERROR r371), heqs (ERROR r319), nml (r187), ogfxplus (r18), opengfx (r458), openmsx (r57), test (ERROR r16), worldairlinersset (r643)
16:25:20  <yorick> Yexo: it doesn't use the OutputXXX thing
16:26:35  <Yexo> so? with your patch if you use "nml2nfo -o some_file.nfo test.nml" it'll also write test.grf'
16:27:28  <Ammler> is it possible, cron doesn't use bash?
16:27:39  <Yexo> yes, that is possible
16:27:45  <Ammler> or what the hell is going wrong :-(
16:28:41  <Ammler> it works just fine, if I call the script manually
16:29:13  <Brot6> 32bpp-extra: update from r34 to r36 done -
16:29:34  <Brot6> firs: compile of r850 failed -
16:30:04  <Ammler> planetmaker: can you set that Makefile.dep error top priority?
16:30:09  <Brot6> fish: update from  to r371 done (1 errors) -
16:30:18  <planetmaker> uhm, how?
16:30:38  <Brot6> heqs: update from  to r319 done -
16:30:41  <planetmaker> you mean I should return a higher return value?
16:30:43  <Ammler> well, it worked with the old makefile
16:30:44  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r542), nml (r187), ogfxplus (r18), opengfx (r458), openmsx (r57), test (ERROR r16), worldairlinersset (r643)
16:30:47  <planetmaker> eh?
16:30:52  <planetmaker> hm
16:31:41  <Ammler> I think, it is more important to know, which file is missing than to have such a nice dependency check.
16:32:39  <planetmaker> yes, meanwhile I agree
16:33:20  <Ammler> andythenorth: fish is fine...
16:33:49  <planetmaker> lol... instead of opening the Makefiles in the editor I opened them in the browser. stuupid! ;-)
16:38:17  <Alberth> Yexo: ok
16:42:52  <planetmaker> Ammler: if you comment out Makefile.common:113: does it work then for you?
16:43:00  <planetmaker> #	$(_V) echo "Makefile.dep: $(MAIN_FILENAME_SRC)" >> $(MAKEFILE_DEP)
17:08:21  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 188: Codechange: Converting an integer number never fails (closes #9... <> || NFO Meta Language - Code Review #956 (Closed): useless ValueError exception handling in t_number(... <>
17:09:09  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'll push an update to your repos
17:09:15  <planetmaker> for the Makefiles
17:09:23  <andythenorth> ok thanks
17:10:40  <planetmaker> hopefully the Makefile will again tell what is missing ;-)
17:10:47  <planetmaker> you might try on firs and heqs already
17:17:40  *** Webster has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
17:23:23  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: Climate dependant airports - Revision 49: Change [Makefile]: Update to Makefile r94 <> || Nutracks - Revision 61: Change [Makefile]: Update to Makefile r94 <> || 2cc train set - Revision 543: Change [Makefile]: Update to Makefile r94 <> || FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 851: Change [Makefile]: Update to Makefile r94 <> || HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 320: Change [Makefile]: Update to Makefile r94 <> || HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 319: DevZone: enable new compiler <>
17:25:22  *** Yexo has quit IRC
17:25:28  <Ammler> make[1]: *** No rule to make target `sprites/nfo/i_GASSTATION.pnfo', needed by `sprites/nfo/firs.pnfo'.  Stop.
17:25:44  <andythenorth> bah, I thought I'd committed that :o
17:25:57  <planetmaker> :-)
17:26:04  <planetmaker> a good test that it now works better again ;-)
17:26:18  <Ammler> case sensitive issue?
17:26:52  <Ammler> -rw-r--r--  1 marcel users  3631 2010-05-23 18:44 i_gasstation.pnfo
17:27:22  <planetmaker> yup, looks like. And small cases is also much nicer :-)
17:27:48  <Ammler> sorry, that I missed your request to test :-P
17:27:55  <planetmaker> too late
17:27:58  <planetmaker> ;-)
17:28:20  <planetmaker> and nvm
17:28:44  <Ammler> the new script is in in /home/ottdc/compiler/
17:28:57  <Ammler> <project> for manually starting
17:30:05  <Ammler> hmm, but scheduler not really schedules, yet.
17:32:13  <Ammler> planetmaker: also if nml gets an update, should that force ogfxplus to update?
17:32:46  <planetmaker> that way not
17:33:07  <Ammler> wouldn't it be a good test?
17:33:09  <planetmaker> only ogfxplus needs newest nml
17:33:40  <planetmaker> well. actually it might be good, yes
17:33:55  <planetmaker> then one knows whether everything still works
17:34:08  <planetmaker> though, of course that is expected
17:34:16  <planetmaker> that's rather a test for NML.
17:34:43  <Ammler> yes, I mean that
17:34:45  <planetmaker> hm
17:36:27  <planetmaker> dunno really :-)
17:36:42  <planetmaker> it feels conceptually wrong
17:36:50  <planetmaker> but might be useful
17:39:27  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 852: Change: improved some elements of Machine Shop grap... <> || FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 853: Merge <> || OpenGFX - Revision 459: Change [Makefile]: Update to Makefile r94 <>
17:41:22  <Ammler> planetmaker: that is for example how the distro build system works
17:41:40  <Ammler> if a dependency updates, it does rebuild
17:41:50  <Ammler> that is why I found out that grfcodec breaks
17:42:24  <planetmaker> ok. interesting, didn't know that :-)
17:42:56  <planetmaker> so, well, go for it :-)
17:43:16  <planetmaker> but then you should do it for grfcodec / catcodec / pngcodec, too :-)
17:44:11  <Ammler> nah...
17:45:26  <Ammler> we could touch rebuild in ./devzone/build/nightlies/
17:45:27  <planetmaker> hm, we don't build it ourselves?
17:45:42  <Ammler> only nml
17:45:47  <Ammler> the others are used from suse
17:46:05  <Ammler> well, indirectly from us, as I build those there...
17:47:51  <Ammler>
17:54:34  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 854: Change: further improvements to Machine Shop graphics <>
18:05:30  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Webster
18:09:57  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 855: Feature: improved graphics for Machine Shop <>
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18:40:48  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenSFX - Revision 89: -Change [Makefile] Update to version r95 <>
18:44:55  <planetmaker> andythenorth: the anti-aliasing is good in general. There's one piece where it IMHO doesn't improve the situation with the Machine Shop:
18:45:10  <planetmaker> the pip connection between the two white tanks on their top
18:45:27  <planetmaker> *pip
18:45:33  <planetmaker> grrr *pipe
18:48:20  <andythenorth> planetmaker: hmmm.....that bit is kind of muddy
18:48:44  <andythenorth> ah
18:48:51  <andythenorth> the pcx is wrong
18:49:51  <andythenorth> planetmaker: before I fix it....what is your issue with it?
18:50:20  <planetmaker> the pipe kind vanishes in the aa version while it is clear in the non-aa version
18:50:41  <planetmaker> in aa it merges with the tanks
18:52:17  <andythenorth> yup, a mistake in the pcx :)
18:52:59  <planetmaker> :-)
18:57:23  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenSFX - Revision 90: Cleanup: Remove duplicate variable definition <>
19:02:37  <Alberth> planetmaker: is there a defined meaning when { and } are used in nml, and when [ and ] are used?
19:03:36  <planetmaker> hm, not that I know out of my hat... let's see
19:06:55  <Alberth> ie for town names parts, you have a list of names (mostly strings) and a probablity. Would you expect a { } or a [ ] around those?
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19:07:28  <planetmaker> I think that generally { } is used for actions, features, properties
19:07:49  <planetmaker> ][ is nearly only used for number arrays like real sprites
19:07:54  <planetmaker> or do I miss something?
19:08:04  <Alberth> unlikely
19:08:29  <Alberth> ok, I'll use {} then first, we can always change it :)
19:08:31  <Alberth> thanks
19:09:19  <planetmaker> you're welcome
19:09:35  <planetmaker> I'd propose those, too
19:11:48  <Ammler> Alberth: if you have done town names, I would have 2 grfs to test it... :-)
19:12:13  <Alberth> bummer, I was going to use those as test :(
19:12:39  <Ammler> ?
19:12:41  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 856: Fix: mistake in Machine Shop pcx <>
19:13:31  <Alberth> Ammler: or are you not talking about converting the swisstown names grf to nml?
19:14:04  <Alberth> If you want to do that, I cannot use it for testing
19:14:04  <Ammler> yes, I meant that or french towns as that needs a typo fix
19:14:20  <Ammler> well, feel free to use it :-)
19:14:44  <Alberth> thanks!
19:15:42  <Alberth> although I may need your help, I speak nfo very very badly :)     but I will let you know then
19:16:24  <Ammler> but swisstowns is real names only
19:16:49  <Alberth> yeah, just one part if my decoding is correct
19:17:05  <Alberth> with some sub town-name definitions
19:17:08  <Ammler> glx has sources for other grfs
19:17:21  <Ammler> which do combine
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19:33:46  <Hirundo> Mind if I extend param_list to allow a zero-length list?
19:35:58  <planetmaker> if it helps :-)
19:36:17  <planetmaker> why should we mind? :-)
19:38:56  <Hirundo> dunno :)
19:49:46  <yorick> Hirundo: why would you want a zero-length list?
19:50:05  <Hirundo> Because functions can have a zero-length argument list?
19:50:30  <yorick> which ones?
19:51:13  <yorick> hmm never mind I think it'd be useful
19:51:31  <Hirundo> In any case, an invalid parameter count is *not* a syntactic error
19:59:57  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 189: Codechange: allow zero-length parameter lists, removing EmptyRe... <>
20:15:40  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Patch #958: Add -o option <>
20:16:31  <yorick> hmm...where to put the ABC for the actions
20:16:45  <yorick> nml/actions/ could be a candidate
20:22:37  <yorick> or maybe nml/
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20:29:03  <Alberth> how to get a string literal as expression value, or is that not possible in nml?
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20:34:54  <Hirundo> a quoted string?
20:37:04  <Alberth> I thought so, but it does not seem to work. Perhaps I am doing something stupid.
20:38:59  <Hirundo> literal strings are currently not expressions, but that could be changes
20:39:02  <Hirundo> *changed
20:40:56  <Alberth> makes sense for a mostly numeric language like newgrf. I'll add parser rules for the strings.
20:46:09  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX+ - Revision 19: Change [Makefile]: Update to Makefile r95 <> || OpenSFX - Revision 92: Cleanup: remove rpm specs, those are slightly outdated and available direc... <> || OpenSFX - Revision 91: DevZone: enable new compiler <>
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20:52:23  <Hirundo> switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, cb36_blank_wagon, max(extra_callback_info1, 4)) <- This should work, right?
20:53:00  <planetmaker> looks alright
21:00:26  <Alberth>     does this look useful as town names description?
21:01:11  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: Snowline mod - Revision 11: Change [Makefile]: Update to Makefile r95 <>
21:03:22  <Hirundo> Alberth: I would use "x : y ;" in all cases, , "x = y" is never really used for this purpose
21:03:37  <Hirundo> What does 'definition' do?
21:04:35  <Alberth> it is a number of the town names action, the town_names(0) at the end refers to the first one (with definition = 0)
21:05:31  <Alberth>         ID here
21:05:34  <planetmaker> it doesn't follow the line that translations are in a lng file
21:05:49  <Ammler> town_names(0) : 99 <-- what is that 99?
21:05:59  <Alberth> 99 is probability
21:06:40  <Alberth> planetmaker: duh.   Nobody told me that, and nobody wrote that somewhere :)
21:06:57  <Rubidium> >1 for probability?
21:07:16  <planetmaker> uhm... sorry :-)
21:07:18  <Alberth> but it is not really translation imho, it is the style name
21:07:35  <planetmaker> style name?
21:07:47  <planetmaker> #
21:07:48  <planetmaker>     dutch = "stadsnamen";
21:07:50  <planetmaker> #
21:07:51  <planetmaker>     any = "townnames";
21:07:55  <planetmaker> ^ pretty much looks like a translation
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21:08:19  * Hirundo agrees
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21:08:35  <planetmaker> 		name:                         string(STR_NAME_HEREFORD_TRAM);
21:08:38  <planetmaker> ^ that way
21:08:39  <Alberth> Rubidium: you must sum all integers and divide all numbers by that sum for getting the fraction
21:08:49  <Hirundo> Also, using names instead of numbers might be preferred
21:09:05  <Alberth> Hirundo: ?
21:09:14  <Alberth> is dutch a number?
21:09:31  <Hirundo> Sorry, I meant names for the town name blocks instead of definition numbers
21:09:46  <Hirundo> dutch = 0031 ;)
21:09:54  <planetmaker> :-P
21:10:12  <Rubidium> lies
21:10:38  <Rubidium> 31, 0x1f okay, but 0031.. nah
21:11:04  <Alberth> Hirundo: you don't make any sense,      dutch = "stadsnamen"     where is the number in that input?
21:11:43  <Hirundo> "... instead of definition numbers"
21:11:45  <Ammler> he might mean "definition = 0;"
21:11:51  <planetmaker>     definition = 0;
21:12:13  <planetmaker>     definition = 1;
21:12:15  <Alberth> that is the ID of the town_names action F, it has nothing to do with the languages
21:12:46  <planetmaker> it might more follow the scheme used with vehicles if it would follow vehicles:
21:13:18  <Alberth> planetmaker: name:                         string(STR_NAME_HEREFORD_TRAM);    <-- what does this mean?
21:13:30  <planetmaker> item(FEAT_TRAINS, goods_wagon, 32) or item(FEAT_TRAINS, goods_wagon, fancy_unique_description)
21:13:53  <planetmaker> Alberth: it means that the name is given by the (translatable) string STR_NAME_HEREFORD_TRAM
21:14:10  <planetmaker> and there then can be for each translation one lng file
21:14:21  <planetmaker> exactly like OpenTTD translations
21:14:23  <Alberth> I don't need a translatable string, I need all translations, ordered by language
21:14:29  <planetmaker> ?
21:15:01  <Alberth> <-- Style Names  section
21:16:10  <Alberth>  item(FEAT_TRAINS, goods_wagon, 32)     makes a relation between these 3 values?
21:17:01  <planetmaker> yes. a train vehicle, with the internal description goods_wagon gets assigned vehicle ID 32
21:17:28  <planetmaker> goods_wagon is what I re-use in action2 in order to refer to it
21:17:42  <planetmaker> the 32 as vehicle ID is optional
21:18:32  <planetmaker> maybe it could look like item(FEAT_TOWNNAMES, dutch_style) {
21:18:43  <planetmaker> my-big-village: 1,
21:18:45  <planetmaker> ...
21:18:47  <planetmaker> }
21:18:52  <planetmaker> ?
21:19:18  <planetmaker> but I'm not too deep into actionF tbh, so it might be nonsense
21:19:19  <Alberth> no, it is only the name of the grf in the option menu
21:19:29  <Alberth> (as I read it)
21:19:57  <planetmaker> grf name? option menu?
21:20:07  <planetmaker> action8 is not translatable
21:20:53  <Ammler> it is for the town name menu in options
21:21:15  <Ammler> which is translatable
21:21:18  <Alberth> 3rd blurb in the notes
21:21:47  <planetmaker> ah, that one
21:22:01  <planetmaker> then it clearly should become a translatable string
21:22:46  <planetmaker> ... if that's possible
21:23:10  <Alberth> I haven't looked at those strings yet
21:23:16  <planetmaker> yes
21:23:23  <Alberth> I didn't even know they existed :p
21:23:27  <planetmaker> it wants a language ID, so it's translatable
21:25:44  <planetmaker> it unfortunately is one of the NFO inconsistencies here. Instead of going via stringIDs and another action4 it is done here directly
21:28:03  <planetmaker> I fear you got a nice complicated bit of work here
21:28:24  <planetmaker> you need to check which translations are possible and then add them.
21:28:26  <Alberth> for the time being I simply keep this, I think.
21:28:30  <planetmaker> normal action4 are easy in comparison
21:28:34  <Rubidium> it's probably so there's no need to completely load the NewGRF to figure out the translations
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21:29:29  <Alberth> no doubt someone thought about it when adding action 4
21:29:58  <Rubidium> action F is way later than action 4
21:30:08  <planetmaker> as the numbering implies
21:30:24  <Alberth> no doubt someone thought about it when adding action F   :p
21:30:30  <planetmaker> :-P
21:30:58  <Rubidium> that I wouldn't say :)
21:32:02  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: NFO Meta Language - Revision 190: Fix: If an expression can't be reduced completely, return the b... <> || NFO Meta Language - Revision 191: Fix: Dictionary != function <>
21:32:04  <Rubidium> anyhow, it has to do with the loading stages of a newgrf
21:32:27  <Alberth> seems logical indeed
21:34:01  <planetmaker> yep.
21:35:20  <Alberth> good night
21:36:43  <planetmaker> yep good night from here, too
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21:56:00  <Brot6> opensfx: compile of 0.2.3 failed -
21:56:38  <Ammler> mäh
21:56:40  <Ammler> :-)
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23:04:47  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX - Feature #957: forest <>
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