Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 28th June 2010:
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03:44:37  <Brot6> Redmine - Revision 3814: Updating documentation for the 0.9.5 release. (edavis10) @
03:44:37  <Brot6> Redmine - Revision 3815: Bump release to 0.9.5 (edavis10) @
03:44:37  <Brot6> Redmine - Revision 3816: Merged r3814 from trunk. (edavis10) @
03:44:37  <Brot6> Redmine - Revision 3817: Merged r3815 from trunk. (edavis10) @
03:44:39  <Brot6> Redmine - Revision 3818: Tagging 0.9.5 (edavis10) @
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09:03:55  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1043: NML fails on TTDPatch (yexo) @
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09:21:51  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1043: NML fails on TTDPatch (Ammler) @
09:28:16  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1043: NML fails on TTDPatch (planetmaker) @
09:31:31  <Ammler> planetmaker: did you ever nforenum the swr nfo?
09:36:41  <planetmaker> never
09:37:06  <planetmaker> and why should I? renum doesn't support rail types...
09:37:15  <planetmaker> as such it'll complain big time
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10:24:55  <Ammler> well, it isn't worth to spend more time to the ttdp issue
10:33:35  <planetmaker> well... for SE rails it'd be worth it. Otherwise there's no point drawing all those level crossings...
10:35:09  <Ammler> nobody complained about it isn't working in patch
10:35:20  <Ammler> so either I have another setup or nobody is using it
10:38:42  <planetmaker> I'd count on the latter :-)
10:39:20  * Ammler too
10:41:32  <Rubidium> Q: does SAC use it yet?
10:42:36  <Rubidium> Q: have you looked in the screenshots forum recently?
10:43:55  <Rubidium> A: no, I haven't recently... TTDP screenshot threads have almost all fallen of the first page. TTDP really nearing its dead?
10:46:20  <planetmaker> might well be. Despite I'll ask wallyweb
10:47:40  <planetmaker> indeed ever since DaleStan disappeared it got *really* silent around TTDP
10:48:01  <planetmaker> no commit in 6 weeks
10:55:17  <Rubidium> yeah... momentum got seriously killed
10:55:35  <Ammler> well, it died since patchman leaft
10:55:38  <Ammler> left*
10:56:00  <Ammler> it was mainly a one-man-project
10:57:50  <Rubidium> JGR and ... were working on it as well
10:57:58  <Rubidium> or do you mean nforenum/grfcodec?
10:58:26  <planetmaker> Rubidium: I do have a feature request concerning music: make the setting 'mix' the deault one. Or is it?
10:58:44  <Ammler> well, but he still kept the project leader
10:58:48  <Ammler> without beeing online
10:58:57  <planetmaker> And no, I talked about TTDP. But Lackie and JGR didn't do much either recently.
10:58:58  <Ammler> that would be like Darkvater would still lead openttd
10:59:13  <planetmaker> And Patchman didn't transfer his responsibilities when he became more and more scarce
10:59:27  <Ammler> ^
10:59:51  <Rubidium> but it's killed due to lack of releases
10:59:59  <Rubidium> and nobody has the balls to pick that up
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11:00:09  <Ammler> yes, that's what I mean
11:01:08  <Ammler> well, since openttd supports almost everything what patch does, patch is only about hacking a game, not playing anymore
11:01:26  <Ammler> so there is no reason for player to chose it
11:02:06  <Rubidium> magic signals, bridgeheads, crap over tunnels?
11:02:12  <Ammler> :-D
11:02:29  <Ammler> yeah, I wouldn't mind, if you include those features :-P
11:02:39  <Ammler> at least bridgeheads
11:02:44  <planetmaker> :-P
11:04:36  <planetmaker> I guess as usual: anyone is free to supply a good version of CBR :-)
11:05:01  <planetmaker> but indeed it might be needed to consider it separately from building over tunnel heads
11:05:17  <planetmaker> Might both become a newgrf feature actually...
11:05:51  <planetmaker> only allowed when the rail (tunnels) or bridge newgrf support them by supplying appropriate sprites
11:06:05  <Ammler> it is a nice feature, but not really required for the bigger openttd maps
11:06:26  <planetmaker> yes. But in towns it's nice :-)
11:06:46  <Ammler> if you could build a road over the tunnel, yes :-P
11:08:09  <planetmaker> well, that's what you need a newgrf variable for :-)
11:08:33  <planetmaker> then you could supply the appropriate sprites depending upon circumstances
11:08:45  <planetmaker> though it most probably still needs some default handling
11:10:50  <planetmaker> hm, one should update libpng...
11:11:00  <Ammler> where?
11:11:11  <planetmaker>
11:11:13  <Webster> Title: heise online - Kritische Lücke in PNG-Referenz-Bibliothek geschlossen (at
11:21:25  <Hirundo> planetmaker: where did you use a random-block? I'd like some example code for in the docs
11:21:56  <planetmaker> In unpublished code so far ;-)
11:22:01  <planetmaker> let me give you the diffs
11:22:55  <Hirundo> did you use anything complicated (triggers/ (in)dependence) ?
11:23:13  <planetmaker> nope
11:23:32  <planetmaker> <-- it might not even apply as it was cut out from a bigger patch
11:23:48  <planetmaker> railtypes don't have those and with four bits... not much point
11:24:02  <planetmaker> *two bits
11:26:01  <Hirundo> I'll make up something big, complicated and most likely utterly useless in real life :)
11:26:10  <planetmaker> <-- this one definitely applies, but is much more voluminous
11:26:47  <planetmaker> but big, convoluted and voluminous means not using rail types, but industries or so
11:27:39  <planetmaker> Hirundo: what about actually renaming it to random_switch?
11:27:57  <planetmaker> I think it would really be more intuitive :-)
11:31:18  <Hirundo> Fine with me
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11:38:24  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 508:ca116d5a4155: Doc [#967]: Document random-blocks in reference... (Hirundo) @
11:42:08  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 509:5548049a763e: Fix: Random types FORWARD_SELF and BACKWARD_SEL... (Hirundo) @
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11:56:18  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 510:a3875eac3cb0: Codechange: Move parsing of 'type' to action2ra... (Hirundo) @
12:06:59  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 91:025649b13e00: Change: [Makefile] Don't ship tars within a zip file (planetmaker) @
12:06:59  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 92:0f50d2222302: Change: Make the y coordinate a parameter for level cro... (planetmaker) @
12:11:35  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 511:0da30126106d: Change: Rename 'random' to 'random_switch'. (Hirundo) @
12:11:39  <Hirundo> planetmaker: The random->random_switch switch has been done
12:12:31  <planetmaker> nice :-) Thank you
12:16:22  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 512:9701928e7f0b: Doc: Document random->random_switch change. (Hirundo) @
12:20:02  <planetmaker> And as Irwe's response to using them with introduction dates is positive, too, I shall implement that :-)
12:20:48  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 93:716a2aee6638: Add: Sprites for modern level crossings for right side ... (planetmaker) @
12:41:50  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 94:d14012bf2c49: Add: Sprites for modern level crossings for left side t... (planetmaker) @
12:43:56  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 513:0694ca7f6029: Fix: [Docs] Add <p></p> tags around all text an... (Hirundo) @
13:00:17  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1043: NML fails on TTDPatch (planetmaker) @
13:04:29  <planetmaker> Hirundo: from reference.html "TRIGGER_A | TRIGGER_B | ... | TRIGGER_Z To re-randomize only when all of the events have occured, use TRIGGER_ALL | TRIGGER_A | ..."
13:04:40  <planetmaker> the 2nd version should be &, right?
13:05:30  <Hirundo> no, bitmasks are 'assembled' using |
13:05:56  <Hirundo> TRIGGER_ALL is, in essence, just another bit (0x80)
13:07:24  <planetmaker> oh. I guess that needs making more clear :-)
13:07:43  <planetmaker> that adding TRIGGER_ALL is the important difference
13:28:41  <PeterT> Ammler: xOR is working on a plug-in system for xShunter \o/
13:29:41  <Ammler> PeterT: xShunter is OT here
13:29:51  <PeterT> you're OT here!
13:29:52  <Ammler> only opensource
13:29:53  * PeterT runs away crying
13:32:25  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 514:474a76fba4e1: Doc: Amend documentation concerning random trig... (planetmaker) @
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13:53:53  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 95:ba222b7b3fd8: Cleanup: document header.pnml better and prepare for le... (planetmaker) @
14:35:41  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 96:4baa23fdb9e9: Feature: Modern versions of level crossings (planetmaker) @
14:37:50  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 103:fc4ddfe66fe6: Change: [NML] Use 'tnml' as extension for tem... (planetmaker) @
14:53:07  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 97:95e23c9f4b0a: Change: Generalize the template for modernization period (planetmaker) @
14:57:50  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 98:b031def590df: Fix: Comments concerning parameters (planetmaker) @
15:20:03  <DJNekkid> anyone know any artists who is good at "snowifying" buildings?
15:20:34  <Ammler> irwe
15:20:45  <DJNekkid> thats what i thought :) TY :D
15:20:49  <DJNekkid> i'll send him a PM
15:21:17  <Ammler> you are going to make a snowy house set?
15:21:29  <DJNekkid> no
15:21:46  <DJNekkid> but one of the ones i did selct for the artic subways didnt have a snowy version :)
15:21:55  <DJNekkid> i am NO drawer :)
15:47:27  <planetmaker> don't steal my drawer, DJNekkid :-P
15:47:49  <planetmaker> he's got many ground tiles and fences to do still :-P
15:48:02  <DJNekkid> one loucy building with some snow? :)
15:50:03  <planetmaker> :-)
15:50:23  <planetmaker> but I wonder why you don't take snow-aware buildings from the base set in the first place?
15:50:38  <DJNekkid> i thought i did :)
15:51:24  <planetmaker> but it doesn' work?
15:51:31  <DJNekkid> sure it does
15:51:40  <DJNekkid> but i lacked one highrise with snow :)
15:51:47  <planetmaker> ah :-)
15:52:09  <DJNekkid> if you look in ogfx1_base.pcx
15:52:18  <planetmaker> btw, DJNekkid your idea with using the random bits to stretch the introduction date: genious
15:52:27  <DJNekkid> sprite 4444 needs snow :)
15:52:35  <DJNekkid> thanx! :D
15:52:36  <planetmaker> I use it now to stretch introduction of modern level crossings over 15 years :-)
15:52:37  <DJNekkid> i try :D
15:53:28  <planetmaker> and I still ponder whether to do the same with depots in all cases. I guess so... :-)
15:53:54  <planetmaker> and when they're then also used on fences... it'll be awesome :-)
15:53:57  <DJNekkid> new ones are made modern, and the old ones get upgraded slowly? :)
15:54:03  <planetmaker> But there I use them just for random effects without year
15:54:40  <planetmaker> it's a tile-based effect. So every 5 years 1/4 of the tiles is upgraded to modern
15:54:50  <planetmaker> nothing else possible with level crossings
15:54:53  <DJNekkid> yea
15:54:55  <DJNekkid> i know
15:55:00  <DJNekkid> same i do with subway buildings
15:55:06  <planetmaker> :-)
15:55:10  <DJNekkid> well, not exactly the same, but the idea is the same
15:55:23  <DJNekkid> ./principle
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15:56:50  <DJNekkid> wow, snowy buildings have ALOT of pure white!
15:57:07  <planetmaker> hm... they shouldn't.
15:57:34  <DJNekkid> based on opengfx 0.2.1
15:58:18  <planetmaker> ehm... the sprites actually being used should not have pure white
15:58:24  <planetmaker> sprites NOT used might have
15:58:31  <planetmaker> like in the source dir
15:58:34  <Rubidium> pure whites = bad
15:58:41  <planetmaker> we know :-)
15:59:53  <DJNekkid> then grfcodec makes stuff "pure white"
16:01:21  <Rubidium> file a bug report at Dale
16:01:51  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: dunno... it really depends which sprites you took...
16:01:51  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 79:f3cc30b5ec5f: Add: Snowy high buildings (DJNekkid) @
16:03:10  <DJNekkid> sprite 4586 and 87 in ofgxbase
16:03:17  <DJNekkid> for example
16:03:49  <Rubidium> 0.2.1 is an extremely old version
16:03:56  <DJNekkid> hmm
16:04:02  <DJNekkid> actually
16:04:18  <DJNekkid> when in the ....base.pc they are fc:fc:fc
16:04:30  <DJNekkid> but when copied to mspaint and then back its ff:ff:ff
16:05:06  <planetmaker> wrong palette conversion
16:05:49  <DJNekkid> but mspaint should handle them in 32bit or something, while i.mage is in 8bit ttd-plaette
16:07:00  <DJNekkid> wow, irwe is fast :)
16:08:06  <planetmaker> use gimp :-)
16:08:13  <planetmaker> yes, Irwe is very responsive
16:08:23  <DJNekkid> like purno in the old days :)
16:18:45  <Brot6> newgrf_makefile: compile of r103 failed -
16:19:31  <Brot6> nml: update from r506 to r514 done -
16:20:21  <planetmaker> hm... newgrf_makefile...
16:20:29  <Brot6> nutracks: update from r77 to r79 done (164 errors) -
16:20:55  <Brot6> openmsx: update from r57 to r70 done -
16:21:04  <planetmaker> :-O 164 errors
16:21:44  <Brot6> swedishrails: update from r90 to r98 done -
16:21:57  <planetmaker> and all whitespace :-)
16:22:45  <Brot6> worldairlinersset: update from r645 to r646 done -
16:22:46  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r557), 32bpp-extra (r36), airportsplus (r50), bros (r12), comic-houses (r70), firs (r1011), fish (r375), heqs (r320), nmts (r16), ogfxplus (r32), opengfx (r461), opensfx (r94), snowlinemod (r12)
16:23:01  <DJNekkid> yes, mostly whitespace i think
16:23:46  <Ammler> planetmaker: newgrf_makefile never worked
16:24:00  <Ammler> or did you fix the "tar-grf" bug?=
16:24:22  <planetmaker> no, I didn't
16:24:30  <planetmaker> I was just reminded to make it work :-)
16:24:36  <Ammler> :-)
16:25:06  <planetmaker> ha, and no errors with SE rails anymore. Varaction2 is implemented :-)
16:25:35  <planetmaker> *random varaction2
16:28:03  <Ammler> I wonder, why the other newgrf projects works, but the example doesn't
16:31:50  <planetmaker> :-)
16:31:55  <planetmaker> No idea yet
16:32:13  <dan123> hi DJNekkid, did you see ?
16:32:13  <planetmaker> I guess I always test with a real newgrf the changes and only port them then there. Maybe broken config file
16:32:14  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - [OTTD]2cc TrainSetThe Trains of the world in2cc.Now:2.0Beta2 (at
16:32:38  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: All my electric trains from 2cctrainset 2.0beta2 drive on normal rail...
16:33:00  <planetmaker> and e-rail doesn't get activated. When loaded jointly with Swedish rails
16:33:15  <planetmaker> And... I use the default rail labels, RAIL and ELRL
16:33:38  <planetmaker> do you assume a particular slot?
16:35:59  <planetmaker> hm... maybe as I had them default be railtypes 0x0A and 0x0B. Maybe I should change that
16:36:30  <planetmaker> because then it works as intended. Mostly
16:36:53  <planetmaker> Railbus 479 is still available in a non-electric depot
16:40:24  <planetmaker> which is also the case without any railtypes active
16:43:31  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #1044 (Confirmed): railbus 479 can be bought in non-electric depot (planetmaker) @
16:45:02  <planetmaker> oh, you updated it already with the excel values, dan123 ?
16:45:09  <dan123> yes
16:45:09  <planetmaker> :-)
16:45:42  <dan123> it's just that registration mail from dev.openttdcoop can't find it's way to my inbox
16:45:50  <dan123> or spam folder :/
16:45:54  <planetmaker> hm
16:46:04  <planetmaker> what's your user account name?
16:46:09  <dan123> in 2 different mailboxes (different providers)
16:46:11  <dan123> dan123
16:47:33  <planetmaker> I activated dan123
16:47:44  <planetmaker> you should be able to login now
16:47:50  <dan123> thanks :)
16:47:59  <planetmaker> I assume I can delete dan124? ;-)
16:50:43  <dan123> yup
16:50:53  <planetmaker> and I added dan123 as contributor to 2cctrainset
16:51:26  <dan123> nice, I can now commit my changes I presume?
16:51:57  <Ammler> our mail broken?
16:52:20  <Ammler> planetmaker: how did you delete dan124?
16:52:25  <planetmaker> you can do that when I upgrade to developer :-) Before I do that I just wanted to know whether and how familiar you're with mercurial
16:52:29  <planetmaker> Ammler: I didn't...
16:52:37  <Ammler> :-)
16:52:46  <planetmaker> I thought I could, but I can't. It's a locked user now.
16:52:52  <dan123> planetmaker: I'll look around and tell when I'm ready :)
16:53:13  <planetmaker> dan123: please do :-)
16:54:02  <planetmaker> I mean... I'm personally quite fine with giving you access there when you plan to contribute more to the set
16:54:57  <dan123> hmm, currently I've got no idea what to do beyond what I've done so far
16:55:01  <planetmaker> But as it's mainly DJ Nekkid's project he should have the last say. That's the main reason why I didn't activate that :-)
16:55:10  <dan123> ok, no problem
16:57:45  <planetmaker> dan123: your patch file doesn't apply for me...
16:59:00  <dan123> hmm, I created it with r557
16:59:42  <dan123> can you give me a hint what might be wrong with it?
17:00:00  <planetmaker> I don't know. Maybe line endings not unix style...
17:00:04  <planetmaker> but it's just a first guess
17:00:15  <dan123> they are unix style :)
17:00:27  <dan123> unless my debian is playing me some pranks :P
17:00:53  <dan123> i made it with:
17:00:53  <dan123> hg diff > patch.diff
17:01:00  <planetmaker> should work
17:01:33  <planetmaker> does the patch work for you on a clean repo?
17:02:03  <dan123> I'll check
17:05:15  <Ammler> dan123: thanks for notify about the mail issue
17:05:17  <Ammler> fixed :-)
17:05:34  <planetmaker> :-)
17:05:50  <Ammler> does hg diff also output changes int eh excel?
17:06:03  <dan123> I didn't change excel file
17:06:15  <dan123> there are correct weights in there
17:06:54  <planetmaker> Ammler: it doesn't. And actually it doesn't produce output for any binary files. Which sucks majorly
17:07:04  <Ammler> hmm
17:07:07  <planetmaker> I nearly destroyed half an hour of work on graphics
17:07:11  <planetmaker> luckily gimp was still open
17:07:23  <Ammler> I just read about binary changes in the mozilla page:
17:07:48  <planetmaker> having a diff format which would support that... would be awesome for patches which include sprites
17:07:59  <planetmaker> But... they'de be unreadable
17:08:09  <Ammler> Ensure you use the git diff format. Otherwise you will lose any changes to binary files.
17:08:40  <Ammler> ""*
17:08:54  <planetmaker> <-- that's what I get with the patch as from the forums, dan123
17:09:08  <planetmaker> hm, does git store binary changes?
17:09:28  <dan123> strange
17:11:46  <dan123> planetmaker: well... it works on clean 2cctrainset sources on my comp
17:11:56  <planetmaker> hm
17:12:48  <planetmaker> your patch tells me that it was made against the same hash as I use
17:13:02  <planetmaker> which should in all cases give a working diff...
17:14:01  <dan123> I've got no idea what might be wrong :/
17:15:49  <planetmaker> oh well... seems to be some broken download here it seems.
17:16:22  <planetmaker> it does apply now
17:16:53  <planetmaker> and commited
17:16:55  <dan123> :)
17:17:56  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: beware, I commited to 2cctrainset :-) Pull before you continue ;-)
17:18:30  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Revision 558:0372988e7e94: Fix: Weight of several wagons was zero (dan123) (planetmaker) @
17:18:47  * dan123 is proud
17:18:52  <planetmaker> :-)
17:19:26  <planetmaker> you can be. You just started your possible carreer as contributor to the OpenTTD community :-)
17:23:18  <planetmaker> dan123: if you're looking for easy things to do first: there are some things which could be done especially in OpenGFX...
17:23:42  <dan123> I've got *no* talent in drawing :)
17:23:46  <planetmaker> Like we have for ages some slightly updated vehicle sprites
17:23:59  <planetmaker> They 'just' need to be added in order to replace the existing ones
17:24:06  <planetmaker> No, I'm NOT talking about drawing :-)
17:24:15  <dan123> hmm, I'll look into it
17:24:39  <dan123> in some days (after my exams)
17:24:58  <planetmaker> It might involve re-arranging the sprites for more convenience, but... that's not pixel art :-)
17:26:58  <dan123> hmm, 2cctrainset doesn't seem to be translated into Polish - that's some work for me :)
17:34:17  <planetmaker> of course :-)
17:34:31  <planetmaker> you can do the same for FIRS
17:43:02  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 99:819de2b2deb7: Change: Also use a long phase-out period for the old de... (planetmaker) @
17:43:55  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 100:3d583571b338: Change: Use the default railtype IDs for RAIL and ELRL (planetmaker) @
17:46:13  <Ammler> r100  \o/
17:46:31  <planetmaker> :-)
17:46:38  <Ammler> :-D
17:46:50  <planetmaker> And I do now have sprites for TTD level crossings and TTRS level crossings
17:47:31  <Ammler> was webman able to run swr with patch?
17:47:59  <planetmaker> wallyweb?
17:48:01  <planetmaker> nope
17:48:05  <planetmaker> same results as you got
17:48:25  <planetmaker> I added to the NML bug report frosch(?) opened the findings
17:48:32  <planetmaker> I think it's somehow with the parameter handling
17:57:54  <Ammler> then we can say, my ttdp installation is fine :-)
17:58:12  <planetmaker> yep
18:07:33  <planetmaker> he... newgrf_makefile failing to bundle_zip is due to sloppy regex :-)
18:07:48  <planetmaker> 'grf' is in the name of the filename stem, too
18:08:04  <planetmaker> and ".grf" != "\.grf"
18:08:30  <Ammler> :-)
18:08:59  <Ammler> but \.grf = .grf :-P
18:09:45  <planetmaker> :-P
18:11:02  <planetmaker> But... so... shall I not tar in bundle_zip and have OpenGFX have all the grf just in its sub-dir, not tar'ed?
18:12:16  <planetmaker> I know you answered it in the bug tracker ;-)
18:17:23  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 104:af666ea07d30: Fix: Regex for bundle_zip was looking for ?gr... (planetmaker) @
18:28:03  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1043: NML fails on TTDPatch (yexo) @
18:30:04  <Ammler> he, mail works again, why did nobody complain about earlier?
18:30:16  <Ammler> do you all have disabled mail notifications?
18:36:16  <Ammler> planetmaker: lock is not delete
18:36:47  <Ammler> I run a script which does automatically delete users which don't activate
19:06:42  <planetmaker> Actually I haven't deactivated them... but I guess I look often enough ;-)
19:06:58  <Ammler> you can't
19:07:05  <Ammler> the only thing is lock
19:09:53  <planetmaker> yes, I can't delete, just lock
19:37:40  <dan123> what encoding should I use in language files? In how-to it says utf-8, but when I use utf-8 I get something like that:
19:37:40  <dan123> Maybe somebody knows what I'm missing?
19:37:41  <Webster> Title: Zrzut ekranu shared on ZimageZ by dan123 (at
19:39:36  <Hirundo> The grf description is shown incorrectly?
19:40:26  <dan123> Polish special characters are interpreted incorrectly
19:40:45  <dan123> not just description, but everywhere I changed it :/
19:41:27  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #995: Handle errors more gracefully (planetmaker) @
19:41:54  <planetmaker> dan123: UTF-8 is what is needed
19:42:24  <planetmaker> But in grfs strings have to be indicated as UTF-8...
19:42:41  <dan123> that might be the problem
19:42:53  <planetmaker> that was FIRS or 2cctrainset?
19:43:24  <dan123> 2cctrainset
19:43:34  <planetmaker> hm
19:44:00  <planetmaker> dan123: try to have the first character of your string be the thorn
19:44:38  <dan123> thorn? (sorry to ask question after question)
19:45:29  <planetmaker> Þ
19:46:05  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #995: Handle errors more gracefully (yexo) @
19:47:50  <planetmaker> ^ the thorn sign indicates that the rest is to be interpreted as UTF-8
19:47:54  <planetmaker> in newgrf-strings
19:53:01  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #967 (Closed): Random action2 (Hirundo) @
19:57:27  <Ammler> native utf-8 support might be something for v8 :-)
19:58:06  <dan123> Þ sign at beginning of a string doesn't change a thing :/
19:59:50  <planetmaker> Ammler: yeah... possibly a good idea
20:03:51  <Terkhen> dan123: FIRS adds C3 9E before UTF-8 strings (C3 9E "String" 00), but it should be equivalent to using Þ
20:04:18  <planetmaker> it is
20:04:41  <Ammler> hmm, but nml is utf-8, isn't?
20:04:51  <planetmaker> but a translator cannot easily add C3 9E :-) - but easily the thorn
20:04:53  <planetmaker> Ammler: yes
20:04:57  <planetmaker> it adds it automatically
20:05:20  <Ammler> so easier to use nml then convert to utf-8 :-)
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20:12:44  <planetmaker> Not necessarily
20:13:01  <planetmaker> It basically means a re-write
20:13:28  *** Seberoth has quit IRC
20:13:39  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 515:0891ef626269: Fix [#1034]: Newline is should be encoded as 0D (Hirundo) @
20:16:31  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1045 (New): non-matching string codes (Hirundo) @
20:18:44  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1034 (Resolved): handling of new lines in strings (Hirundo) @
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20:51:33  <DJNekkid> planetmaker: what did your update do? :P
20:51:52  <planetmaker> What the commit message says :-)
20:51:59  <planetmaker> zero weight for some wagons
20:52:07  <planetmaker> or rather non-zero
20:52:20  <DJNekkid> its a known bug :)
20:52:27  <planetmaker> not anymore
20:52:28  <DJNekkid> atleast it is in my head :)
20:52:41  <DJNekkid> excel is updated as well?
20:53:53  <planetmaker> it was said the excel WAS up2date
20:56:46  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 101:03c0888b35f3: Change: Much more verbose NewGRF description (planetmaker) @
20:59:12  <DJNekkid> looks like the a0wagons.pnfo were the main one that were updated... but i'll transfer thoose numbers to the excel
20:59:33  <DJNekkid> or come up with some myself tomorrow :)
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21:58:01  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 102:ab27fbc5fa66: Feature: TTD style level crossings (planetmaker) @
22:02:47  <planetmaker> moin yexo :-)
22:02:57  <Yexo> hey planetmaker
22:13:08  <dan123> hey planetmaker, I figured out what I did wrong with those encodings
22:14:09  <dan123> problem is, to make a remotely proper translation I'd need to remake almost all stuff in strings section
22:14:59  <planetmaker> how so?
22:15:24  <dan123> well, order of words would be awkward otherwise
22:15:27  <dan123> for one
22:15:38  <Ammler> simply make all strings utf-8
22:15:43  <dan123> second - I'd need to put utf everywhere
22:16:14  <dan123> I'm more concerned with order of words
22:16:36  <planetmaker> hm... what strings are a problem?
22:16:51  <dan123> for example names of wagons
22:17:18  <planetmaker> it's just one name... one string. How can it be a problem?
22:17:22  <dan123> Polish with it's insane grammar just doesn't fit
22:17:25  <planetmaker> or do I err?
22:17:31  <dan123> let me see
22:18:08  <dan123> there is one for every wagon, that's just mudane work
22:18:40  <dan123> it's more about reworking some nice defs somebody made
22:19:06  <dan123> it looks like some kind of framework for translations
22:19:42  <planetmaker> it is, yes
22:19:57  <dan123> and Polish won't fit :)
22:19:58  <planetmaker> but it might have been a bit ... not too well maintained.
22:20:05  <dan123> yea
22:20:47  <dan123> I'm trying to figure out how to make a decent addition
22:21:15  <planetmaker> the language processing is making heavy use of gcc preprocessing
22:21:21  <dan123> and slowly I come to think of making my laguage file completely independent
22:21:41  <dan123> but that'll make it harder to maintain
22:21:48  <planetmaker> that's not desirable at all
22:21:51  <dan123> and there's my dillema :)
22:22:15  <planetmaker> the strings are so "non-sentence" that I find it hard to believe that a name cannot be translated to Polish...
22:22:46  <planetmaker> again, can you point me at what is a problem?
22:23:27  <dan123> if translation fits into framework -> it'll be awkward and I mean what I write
22:23:38  <Ammler> dan123: make a example
22:24:09  <DJNekkid> the translation framework is supposed to make translations easier, but who knows :)
22:24:36  <dan123> 1 gen intercity coach
22:24:52  <planetmaker> that's one string afaik, right?
22:25:06  <dan123> for every kind of wagon
22:25:15  <dan123> and again one for every mtu
22:25:37  <Rubidium> planetmaker: 1st generation intercity coach would be 4 separate strings in 2ccts
22:25:47  <Rubidium> planetmaker:
22:26:30  <planetmaker> oh... right. My knowledge about the structure there was outdated :-)
22:26:34  <Rubidium> also a free tip: run it through a spellchecker
22:26:42  <planetmaker> And then I see that it's a trouble to translate
22:26:43  <dan123> :D
22:27:01  <planetmaker> one name = one string = one translation should be better
22:27:07  <dan123> yea
22:27:20  <dan123> and that means reworking whole thing
22:27:29  <dan123> not that I can't do that
22:27:51  <dan123> but I don't want to do it and *then* ask if it was a good idea :)
22:28:01  <planetmaker> it is a good idea
22:28:35  <planetmaker> you might want to look at FIRS
22:28:44  <dan123> I do look at it :)
22:28:46  <planetmaker> I think it has a good translation framework
22:29:19  <planetmaker> but... I looked at the translation frameworks ... over a year ago or so
22:29:22  <dan123> you think that adapting it to trainset would be ok?
22:29:23  <planetmaker> and they changed
22:29:27  <dan123> oh
22:29:48  <planetmaker> a framework is independent of how the grf utilizes the strings
22:30:18  <planetmaker> or a good one mostly is :-)
22:30:49  <dan123> I'll try to put something like that in a few days and let you guys know
22:31:37  <planetmaker> no rush :-)
22:32:06  <dan123> a few days == no rush :D
22:32:52  <Rubidium> what planetmaker meant was: "it'll be ready when it's ready" :)
22:33:09  <planetmaker> :-)
22:33:20  <Rubidium> so now the question is: will it be ready when it's ready?
22:33:26  <planetmaker> :-D
22:35:53  <dan123> I hope so
22:36:10  <dan123> I'm debian user deep in my heart
22:36:57  *** Seberoth has quit IRC
22:37:05  <Rubidium> so what's you're favourite Toy Story character?
22:37:17  <dan123> currently squeeze
22:37:26  <dan123> at least on my laptop
22:39:04  * Rubidium favours Sid... although uses Lenny for servers
22:40:25  <Ammler> so you still play with openttd 0.6.2 :-D
22:41:03  <Rubidium> no, I favour 0.3.5 for MP!
22:41:05  <dan123> there is 1.0.1 in squeeze  :)
22:41:23  <dan123> and as for sid, I'm too lazy :P
22:41:42  <Ammler> ah, just because we talked about it in the other channel...
22:41:50  <Ammler> (ignore me)
22:43:49  <dan123> DJNekkid: what do you think about rewriting translation framework to make it more flexible?
22:44:28  <DJNekkid> sure! :D
22:44:34  <dan123> :)
22:45:00  <DJNekkid> any parts you like or dislike?
22:45:07  <Yexo> this grf crashes ttdpatch, still no idea why
22:46:13  <dan123> DJNekkid: I'd like to make order of words defineable in file corresponding to particular language
22:47:46  <dan123> I don't have any particular complaints besides that
22:47:59  <DJNekkid> if you got a good idea on how to do it, be my guest :)
22:48:15  <DJNekkid> i guess my implemention are quite germanic language oriented (?)
22:48:56  <dan123> now that you said it, yea I can see that :)
22:49:39  <DJNekkid> all i know is norwegian and engish, and it fits both :)
22:50:24  <DJNekkid> but if some language is like ... "Wagon Hopper Generation 3" there are problems :)
22:51:01  <dan123> in Polish "wagon hopper 3 gen"
22:51:32  <planetmaker> [00:45]	<Yexo>  this grf crashes ttdpatch, still no idea why <-- hm, it doesn't look particularily wrong to me
22:51:47  <planetmaker> Though the strings look funnily at their start
22:51:49  <Yexo> got an even simpler case now
22:51:59  <Yexo> that is the thorn represented in ascii
22:52:08  <planetmaker> ah, ok
22:54:25  <planetmaker> dan123: DJNekkid in general one string = one translation avoids such mistakes. So un-splitting the wagon names with their generation would solve most, though maybe not all problems there
22:54:34  <planetmaker> And it's not like it's really avoiding much duplication
22:55:59  <planetmaker> the only other solution seems to be then to apply a much more complicated string system which allows for re-sorting the sub-strings by the translators such as OpenTTD's WT3 allows.
22:56:24  <dan123> I was thinking about smth like that
22:57:22  <Yexo> planetmaker: that is not that complicated if the language file definitions get defined with a few parameters (for example the speed is a parameter)
22:57:55  <planetmaker> Yexo: yes, but re-writing that only with the gcc pre-processor is.. at least a pain
22:58:07  <Yexo> true
22:58:13  <planetmaker> And I wouldn't find the motivation to re-invent that again now that we have NML ;-)
22:58:31  <Yexo> anyway, I can't solve swedishrails on ttdpatch until I know what is wrong with that little grf I posted above
22:58:38  <Yexo> already created a topic in ttdpatch problems
22:58:44  <planetmaker> I just saw that
22:59:03  <planetmaker> Well... seems like my last commit was void then ;-)
22:59:14  <planetmaker> Still... how can I query other newgrf presence?
22:59:16  <Yexo> renum doesn't complain, grfcodec doesn't complain, it looks like it's according to the spec
22:59:22  <Yexo> you can't currently
22:59:27  <planetmaker> oh, ok
22:59:38  <planetmaker> I can't query var 0x88 either
22:59:51  <Yexo> hmm?
22:59:56  <Yexo> what is var 0x88?
23:00:00  <DJNekkid> dan123: what about the carriage capacity?
23:00:06  <DJNekkid> is that ok in polish?
23:00:08  <planetmaker>
23:00:13  <planetmaker> other GRFIDs
23:01:06  <dan123> DJNekkid: mostly okay
23:01:24  <dan123> and not really worth changing
23:01:34  <Yexo> planetmaker: I know the part about other GRFIDs, is "<planetmaker> I can't query var 0x88 either" related?
23:01:58  <planetmaker> uhm... yes :-)
23:02:21  <Yexo> ah, I sse :)
23:02:31  <Yexo> misread the table the first time
23:03:20  <Yexo> do you need all 4 operators?
23:03:24  <planetmaker> I messed around with my diffs and I don't have the NML code with that what I had before...
23:03:40  <planetmaker> well, I do want to know whether a grf will be active
23:03:46  <Yexo> is active, is not active, is or will be active, is not and will not be active
23:03:48  <dan123> DJNekkid: it's a problem not resolved in a lot of "pro" translations
23:04:19  <Yexo> I'm tempted to only expose the last 2 to nml
23:04:31  <dan123> ending of "passengers" is different for different numbers of them
23:05:01  <planetmaker> I never quite understood the difference between those four though I understand it can make a difference for load order.
23:05:10  <planetmaker> especially when modifying another newgrf
23:05:24  <planetmaker> or supplying information for a newgrf to be loaded
23:05:46  <Yexo> it's important when deciding which grf to disable
23:05:56  <Yexo> you can't disable another grf if it's already active
23:06:11  <planetmaker> disabling other grfs is bad anyway
23:06:22  <Yexo> and ttdpatch is supposed to crash if you try to disable a grf that is not in the list (ie you need to check for "will be active")
23:06:38  <planetmaker> lol? "supposed to crash"?
23:06:40  <Yexo> "supposed to" as in "the wiki says ttdpatch will"
23:07:05  <Yexo> wrong translation to english :p
23:07:31  <planetmaker> :-)
23:08:25  <DJNekkid> dan123: different endings on if they have a different number in the end? (i.e. 0-1-2....9)
23:08:27  <Yexo> good night
23:08:39  *** Yexo has quit IRC
23:09:04  <planetmaker> that was quick...
23:09:28  <dan123> DJNekkid: not for all, but for some and not really coherent among different words
23:10:42  <dan123> as I told Polish grammar is insane
23:11:55  <dan123> I'm proud to say that you have 17 different forms of word "two" for example
23:12:06  <dan123> all more or less used in spoken language :)
23:15:23  <dan123> about flexible word order again, I think it could be done without to much of a work using macros
23:20:12  <planetmaker> whatever :-)
23:20:37  <planetmaker> Just mind that you want to support more than two languages :-)
23:21:09  <DJNekkid> but changeing that part is near impossible
23:21:25  <dan123> planetmaker: I know
23:21:52  <planetmaker> anyway. also good night from here
23:22:18  <dan123> well, I think I'm gonna go to sleep too ;)
23:22:25  <DJNekkid> there is one way tho
23:22:31  <DJNekkid> but it takes some work
23:22:47  <DJNekkid> #define WORD_PAX_0 ... 9
23:22:55  <dan123> DJNekkid: if you are talking about endings then I did't really even think about it seriously
23:24:13  <DJNekkid> and then all of the string-bits needs to have WORD_PAX_0 (or whatever) depending on what the number ends with
23:24:23  <DJNekkid> but that probably needs some big changes
23:24:45  <DJNekkid> and prone to have a handfull of errors
23:24:48  <dan123> yea, just I call it goodnight for today :)
23:24:51  <DJNekkid> unless its made automaticly
23:25:18  <dan123> maybe I'll think about it after I finish first part :)
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