Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 18th September 2010:
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00:15:17  <Brot6> Swiss Town Names - Revision 19:74a1f377e649: Fix: escape the escape for the escape (Ammler) @
00:15:38  <Ammler> nml builds differently here, same md5sum for the nml, but different for the grf
00:47:02  <Ammler> the lunac mingw worked better
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07:48:38  <andythenorth> hi hi
07:54:58  <Terkhen> gm andythenorth
08:04:52  <Alberth> hello
08:05:45  <planetmaker> good morning
08:07:10  <planetmaker> andythenorth: what purpose does your industry CB proposal serve? Different layouts at different times? :-)
08:07:20  <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes
08:07:23  <Alberth> "portuguesetowns.rar [1.74 KiB]"  yeah that needed the additional compression over some more cross-platform archiver :(
08:07:29  <andythenorth> but also it could be adapted for other purposes
08:07:53  <planetmaker> of course :-)
08:07:53  <andythenorth> for example, imagine an industry that adapts if constructed near a river / coast
08:08:03  <planetmaker> hmm.... :-)
08:08:12  <andythenorth> e.g. watermill
08:08:27  <planetmaker> yes. generic mill with that... nice :-)
08:08:40  <andythenorth> I'm sure there are other cases
08:09:02  <planetmaker> though the mill/watermill probably can do w/o layout changes. Still, though
08:09:24  <andythenorth> probably
08:09:42  <andythenorth> ...but it's extra work to make all the graphics modular....
08:10:12  <andythenorth> e.g. so that if there are, say 5 layouts for a mill, the watermill graphics and non-water mill graphics look good in every possible layout
08:11:09  <andythenorth> with (quite a lot) of work, it could also make fishing harbours much easier to build
08:11:33  <andythenorth> could measure the distance to the coast from the players chosen tile, then provide a layout with correct number of tiles to reach coast
08:11:59  <planetmaker> oh :-)
08:12:19  <andythenorth> would be work :P
08:12:34  <andythenorth> could also use it to consolidate oil well / oil rig to one industry, simplifying minimap
08:12:35  <planetmaker> hehe. The harbours are one of the beauties of FIRS already
08:12:53  <planetmaker> hm, yes, that'd be good
08:14:43  <andythenorth> those are just the uses I thought of so far :)
08:14:57  <planetmaker> :-) Any decision on the blacksmith?
08:15:20  <planetmaker> hm... would this callback allow to modify the name?
08:15:30  <planetmaker> depending upon callback? I guess not... or?
08:16:34  <Terkhen> Ammler: it seems that the msys console does not have utf support at all... since the version of cat it's using is made to work in msys, I doubt it has utf support either
08:17:34  <Terkhen> but cygwin does :/
08:18:03  <planetmaker> Terkhen: I have a new diff for OpenGFX r539. The one yesterday was against an old version which I didn't notice.
08:21:58  <Terkhen> planetmaker: scripts/Makefile_nfo:26: *** missing separator.  Stop.
08:22:21  <Terkhen> I don't see anything obviously wrong in that line
08:22:46  <planetmaker> bummer
08:23:45  <planetmaker> damn. I do
08:23:47  <andythenorth> planetmaker: modifying the name is probably (a) hard (b) bad idea (think of minimap)
08:23:51  <planetmaker> spaces instead of tab
08:24:04  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't really think so :-)
08:24:12  <Terkhen> hm, true :)
08:24:17  <planetmaker> Just make a list of names
08:24:22  <planetmaker> Terkhen: if you fix that?
08:24:51  <andythenorth> planetmaker: if an industry can have multiple names, how would the minimap work?
08:25:00  <andythenorth> proposing a suffix would be one route
08:25:05  <andythenorth> Market (Supermarket)
08:25:10  <andythenorth> Market (General Store)
08:25:16  <planetmaker> andythenorth: a list of names next to the single colour
08:25:38  <planetmaker> basically like now. Just a few lines w/o colour next to it
08:25:47  <andythenorth> ah I see
08:25:51  <planetmaker> maybe adding thing separation lines to make clear what belongs to what
08:25:57  <planetmaker> s/thing/thin/
08:26:13  <andythenorth> Terkhen knows the minimap industry code....what does he think?
08:26:46  <planetmaker> andythenorth: your idea may also work, but has more limitations
08:27:08  <planetmaker> metal works (blacksmith)
08:27:10  <andythenorth> I am happy to just have 'Market' or 'Mill' and then do it in the industry window
08:27:17  <planetmaker> metal works (vehicle factory)
08:27:23  <planetmaker> looks... a bit stranger IMHO
08:28:22  <Alberth> I'd add an entry for each name, each with the same colour
08:28:23  <planetmaker> having a common name helps, though, to avoid player confusion
08:28:38  <planetmaker> that's the easy work :-)
08:28:46  <planetmaker> and way. Maybe also best
08:29:00  <Terkhen> I don't remember the smallmap code much, but my guess is that this would break sorting :)
08:29:08  <Terkhen> once I finish with this I'll check it
08:29:09  <Alberth> one name would be preferable imho (although I don't follow the discussion, so I may be missing the idea)
08:29:13  <andythenorth> the idea of consolidating is to make the minimap list less overwhelming, so less names in the list is the goal :)
08:29:15  <planetmaker> It has the disadvantage though, that it is not immediately clear that it is gameplay-wise the same
08:29:48  <planetmaker> Alberth: the idea is to have (visual) variety supported by a name tag. But game play the same
08:29:48  * andythenorth goes off on a tangent
08:30:11  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I am happy with the visual variety, I'm not bothered about changing the name :)
08:30:19  <Terkhen> planetmaker: besides that line appearing in the output of make (cat ogxfe_extra.cnfo | sed ...), it worked fine
08:30:53  <Terkhen> I'll check bundle and install too
08:31:01  <planetmaker> nice, thank you. Did you specify a DEP_CHECK_TYPE?
08:31:24  <Terkhen> no, which one should I check?
08:31:25  <Alberth> you'd want a common name for the industry to use everywhere (smallmap, fund industry, industry chain at least), and perhaps a instance name that can differ a bit
08:31:37  <planetmaker> all :-P
08:31:39  * Terkhen agrees with Alberth
08:31:48  <planetmaker> there's 'none', 'mdep' and 'normal'
08:32:12  <planetmaker> But I have the feeling that the speed of them didn't change much, less their order
08:32:55  <planetmaker> Alberth: then there's no need to differe between the (sub)types on the minimap. The common name then suffices
08:33:09  <Terkhen> hmm...
08:33:53  <Alberth> that would be the idea imho, at smallmap level, you don't want to know about layout details of an industry imho
08:33:55  <Terkhen> my md5 file differs from the one listed here:
08:34:04  <planetmaker> :-O
08:34:11  * andythenorth agrees with....everyone it seems :D
08:34:16  <Terkhen> so something is wrong :(
08:35:13  <Terkhen> could it be caused by being r539M instead of r539?
08:35:34  <planetmaker> that *should* have no effect. If it does there was a bug before or in the diff
08:36:04  <Alberth> does 'grep r539M' give any hits ?
08:36:13  <Terkhen> actually, only opengfx.obg and ogfxe_extra.grf have different md5 values
08:36:14  <planetmaker> oh.. Terkhen : the md5 must differ
08:36:24  <planetmaker> for opengfx.obg and opengfx-extra
08:36:28  * andythenorth would like an overlay or view on the actual map showing cargo acceptance / production
08:36:31  <planetmaker> version :-)
08:36:32  <Terkhen> perfect then :)
08:36:45  <Terkhen> I'll check DEP_CHECK_TYPE
08:36:46  <planetmaker> version string differs
08:37:27  * Terkhen should not check only the first and last lines
08:37:33  * andythenorth ponders
08:37:48  <Alberth> andythenorth: while you are at it, why not also implement the 'blue-print' idea where users can sketch their ideas on the map before building it?
08:38:24  <Alberth> a tooltip may be doable
08:38:28  <andythenorth> because I don't think my proposed implementation of cargo would support that :P
08:38:37  <andythenorth> it can be done in newgrf
08:38:42  <andythenorth> with no code change in trunk
08:38:48  <andythenorth> but it's a *lot* of work :P
08:39:21  <andythenorth> if I draw black tiles with white icons for cargos, I can use them as the ground tile.  I can then draw a fake ground tile on top, then the building
08:39:33  <andythenorth> in transparent mode this will show acceptance / production
08:39:46  <andythenorth> TTRS petrol station does it
08:40:03  <Alberth> and some ECS things too iirc
08:40:13  <andythenorth> however it's a lot of work to draw and code them all, and it's specific only to FIRS, not a generic solution
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08:42:04  <planetmaker> which is IMHO an excellent thing
08:42:14  <andythenorth> maybe with the cargo chain idea, it's not needed any more
08:42:33  * planetmaker uses 'x' often ;-)
08:42:52  <andythenorth> it's hard for me to judge because I know rather well what FIRS industries accept and produce
08:43:10  <Alberth> play ECS instead :p
08:43:30  * andythenorth has an alternative idea using the minimap
08:43:41  <andythenorth> so already industry can be turned on/off on the minimap
08:44:00  <andythenorth> so how about a filter (dropdown probably) that shows only industries accepting or producing cargo x
08:44:39  <Alberth> doesn't    industry chain -> select cargo -> link to minimap    do that ?
08:45:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth: having the prouction visible on the normal map in invisible mode is IMHO a very nice feature
08:45:30  <planetmaker> helpful :-)
08:45:51  <planetmaker> especially as houses and industries blend in nicely it's THE way to make visible where industries are located
08:46:31  * Alberth ponders green rotating diamonds above industries
08:46:42  <planetmaker> uh...
08:46:53  <planetmaker> I think the invisible mode is nicely suitable for that
08:47:00  <planetmaker> it's already there
08:47:12  <planetmaker> and not yet another obscure switch
08:47:31  <Alberth> a button for on/off in the CTL-X window would be nice
08:47:41  <planetmaker> that might be an option
08:47:48  <planetmaker> to add an additonal one there.
08:47:58  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's not small task if implemented using the existing framework
08:48:17  <andythenorth> the work would be
08:48:26  <andythenorth> 1. draw icons recognisable for every cargo
08:48:26  <planetmaker> though it could well then be that the cargo icons are drawn in invisible mode directly, Alberth
08:48:32  <planetmaker> No need for another toggle
08:48:46  <andythenorth> 2. use colour or shape somehow to indicate produce / accept
08:48:48  <planetmaker> in invisble mode nothing is drawn anyway. So the cargo icon on the ground tile(s) would do nicely
08:49:30  <planetmaker> or maybe the ground tiles of industries in invisible mode are automatically replaced by tiles in their minimap colour. With possibly cargo icons there
08:49:45  <andythenorth> 3. place combinations of icons onto tile graphics for each industry
08:49:51  <Alberth> perhaps, at least it would be less code
08:49:53  <andythenorth> 4. recode every industry tile to support this
08:49:59  <planetmaker> hm... but that might be too many... So ... maybe still the toggle ;-)
08:50:15  * andythenorth is talking sideways to you two :P
08:50:16  <Alberth> no summation?
08:50:41  <planetmaker> actually... might be nice, Alberth: another row of toggles for the visibility window: show cargos
08:50:51  <planetmaker> it could well be extended to stations as well. Later
08:51:06  <planetmaker> following your hovering symbol idea
08:51:15  <andythenorth> for industries, one route would be to stack the icons hovering above the north tile
08:51:46  <andythenorth> how does the current sign / name routines work?
08:51:56  <andythenorth> they would be a better example of what would work visually
08:52:07  * Alberth ponders a hovering otating billboard :p
08:52:35  <Alberth> probably somewhere in the viewport.cpp code
08:53:05  <planetmaker> :-) More GUI icons to come :-P
08:53:09  <andythenorth> borrow from signs.  Show two simple lists, 'accepts', 'produces'
08:53:24  <andythenorth> make it similar to existing stations display of cargo.  use same icons
08:53:39  <andythenorth> add one toggle to transparency window
08:54:09  <andythenorth> for stations, it could even extend the current sign
08:54:59  <andythenorth> I think making it appear on the ground tiles might look shinier, but it's a lot of work, and doesn't really fit the game world
08:55:50  <andythenorth> station name signs already show vehicle icons.  There's precedent :)
08:56:53  <andythenorth> although the cargo icons are so tiny, I'm not sure how helpful they would be in actuality
08:57:12  <andythenorth> might just be visual noise :P
08:57:15  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 197:18a8f3bfc750: Fix #1440: Re-introduce another intermediate ... (planetmaker) @
08:57:15  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 198:53b1f162f534: Doc: Officially allow 'none' as dep check in ... (planetmaker) @
08:57:15  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 199:728e562913ba: Fix (r197): Spaces are not tabs (planetmaker) @
08:57:17  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Bug #1440 (Closed): Terminate on failure of CC (planetmaker) @
09:01:16  <Terkhen> planetmaker: normal seems to work, it's now running with none
09:01:29  <planetmaker> let me guess: it's terribly slow, though?
09:02:09  <Terkhen> it's always terribly slow, I have not been paying enough attention to know which one is slower :)
09:02:23  <Terkhen> none seems way faster, though
09:04:28  <planetmaker> is it much faster without? I mean... opengfx IS one of the slowest due to its size
09:04:41  <planetmaker> user	0m27.050s <-- with 'none'
09:04:56  <Terkhen> I'm currently running time with each type
09:05:38  <planetmaker> user	0m29.254s <-- normal
09:06:49  <planetmaker> user	0m27.386s <-- mdep
09:08:24  <Terkhen> hmmm...
09:08:58  <Terkhen> user    0m10.565s <-- with none, but that time is wrong
09:08:58  <planetmaker> user	0m27.455s <-- hm.... 'normal' without generating dependency on graphic files
09:09:35  <planetmaker> so that costs well two seconds here. No good
09:10:22  <planetmaker> you have python, do you?
09:10:29  <Terkhen> yes
09:10:34  <planetmaker> and 'which python' returns the path?
09:10:42  * andythenorth learns a new word: bloomsmith
09:10:45  <Terkhen> yes
09:11:05  <planetmaker> then I should test for python for the dep check type, so that even tar bundles can profit from mdep
09:12:48  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 786:e7fafc0454ed: Fix (r765): Compute total probability everywher... (Alberth) @
09:13:11  <planetmaker> hm... and mdep needs adopting to NML
09:13:12  <planetmaker> grf
09:13:19  <planetmaker> *grrr
09:14:22  <Alberth> nforenum does not complain anymore on swisstowns, so I hope swiss townnames work now
09:16:58  * Alberth ponders how mdep and NML relate
09:17:22  <planetmaker> Alberth: the same way as mdep and nfo relate
09:17:45  <Alberth> not :)
09:17:51  <planetmaker> eh?
09:17:52  <Terkhen> real    1m23.360s (none)
09:17:55  <planetmaker> :-O
09:17:59  <Terkhen> real    2m0.773s (mdep)
09:18:03  <Alberth> perhaps first introduce a include mechanism in NML?
09:18:08  <Terkhen> real    2m37.857s (normal)
09:18:33  <Terkhen> this demonstrates that I'd probably compile faster using the vm
09:18:35  <Alberth> or better, a template-something mechanism
09:18:44  <planetmaker> Alberth: mdep gets the dependency from a file and its sub-files using the typical things found in those
09:18:49  <Terkhen> even taking into account the time to turn it on
09:18:51  <planetmaker> the same could be done with nml files
09:19:10  <planetmaker> Terkhen: even with 'none'? :-(
09:21:29  <Alberth> implementing dep calculation is double work at best
09:22:38  <Terkhen> planetmaker: it took me ~1m40s to turn it on, log in, open a console and compile opengfx so... yes
09:22:40  <planetmaker> Hm... yes. probably
09:22:47  <planetmaker> Terkhen: :-O
09:23:02  <planetmaker> I shall add that to the readme, I guess
09:23:57  <Terkhen> it would be even faster if I used a console only vm instead of one with a windows manager an kept it paused instead of powered off
09:24:05  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trees - Revision 22:cf92185a95fa: Feature: Added and edited more tree graphic sprites. U... (Froix) @
09:25:14  * Terkhen wonders if cross compiling openttd would be faster too
09:25:31  <planetmaker> :-D
09:27:03  <planetmaker> Terkhen: the 1:40 in the vm - which dep check type?
09:27:07  <planetmaker> default?
09:27:13  <Terkhen> yes
09:27:35  <planetmaker> thanks. I really add these times to the readme ;-)
09:27:43  <Terkhen> hmmm...
09:27:49  <planetmaker> and if it's only to give a rough hint of what to expect
09:27:53  <planetmaker> and to try
09:28:02  <Terkhen> oh, okay
09:28:03  <planetmaker> approx. what processor do you have?
09:28:37  <Terkhen> I can run more exact tests if you need it
09:29:14  <Terkhen> Intel Core 2 Duo 2.26 GHz
09:29:18  <planetmaker> what would be 'more exact'?
09:29:31  <planetmaker> hm, you have an even faster machine than me
09:29:36  <planetmaker> though only 10% by clock speed
09:31:22  <Terkhen> the version of opengfx at the vm is probably from a few weeks ago
09:31:53  <Terkhen> anyways; if you need to compile something more than once, the vm will always win
09:32:21  <planetmaker> hm, you quoted 'real'. Not user which doesn't exactly compare to mine. Though 'real' is what the 'felt' time is.
09:35:13  <planetmaker> can you give me the compile time in the VM only (excluding startup)
09:36:25  <Terkhen> <--- all values for msys (mdep)
09:36:54  <planetmaker> o_O
09:37:22  <Terkhen> that's why I used real :P
09:37:30  <planetmaker> yeah
09:37:40  <planetmaker> user is faster for you than for me. Quite a bit
09:37:46  <Terkhen> I don't think it is working correctly
09:38:08  <planetmaker> might be
09:39:15  <planetmaker> those values are for mingw or for the VM?
09:39:29  <Terkhen> msys
09:39:50  <Terkhen> <-- vm
09:40:06  <Brot6> ogfx-trees: update from  to 0.2.0 done (3 errors) -
09:40:13  <Terkhen> both using mdep
09:41:27  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trees - Revision 23:f20c1de5de97: Added tag 0.2.0 for changeset cf92185a95fa (Froix) @
09:42:31  <planetmaker> Thank you Terkhen
09:43:11  <Terkhen> you are welcome
09:43:43  <planetmaker> I shall add it to the makefile documentation for future reference :-) as a 'benchmark'
09:43:59  <planetmaker> so it will be remembered and those values won't need checking always again ;-)
09:44:11  <Terkhen> okay :)
09:44:39  <planetmaker> mostly _I_ can then not forget :-P
09:45:40  <Terkhen> I'll take a look to nml in mingw/msys and then set up a proper virtual machine for this
09:46:20  <planetmaker> that'd be interesting :-)
09:46:40  <planetmaker> especially I'll be interested in OpenGFX runtime once it is converted to NML :-)
09:54:45  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 200:a096e8b29b9b: Doc: Runtime on different sytems (planetmaker) @
10:02:35  <planetmaker> hm... for loops seem to be evil
10:02:51  <Terkhen> <--- output of make in swedish rails under msys
10:03:16  <planetmaker> :-O
10:03:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1370:68ad6100d0c0: Feature: improved Clay Pit graphics (andythenorth) @
10:06:10  <Terkhen> <--- I don't know anything about nml, but the nml file looks as if it was processed incorrectly or not processed at all
10:06:56  <planetmaker> that actually looks ok...
10:07:29  <Terkhen> hmm... so it should be ignoring the # comments and it isn't
10:07:51  <planetmaker> yes
10:08:12  <Terkhen> might have something to do with lack of UTF support at the console? swiss towns fails because of this
10:08:12  <planetmaker> that's where NML gets its line information from (for error messages)
10:08:18  <planetmaker> it's the pre-processor comments
10:08:39  <planetmaker> hm... utf-8 might be needed. But not in that line
10:08:49  <planetmaker> *I think*
10:09:05  <planetmaker> Does Alberth know more about this?
10:09:15  <Terkhen> at first it complained about CC again, but since I set it to the correct value that should be working
10:09:32  <planetmaker> yes, it doesn't have yet that makefile update
10:09:39  <planetmaker> I guess I should tag and update projects :-)
10:09:49  <planetmaker> as it seems to work now at least
10:11:18  <Terkhen> my original diffs were tested in FIRS, it probably should work in all nfo projects
10:11:38  <planetmaker> the CC thingy? Yes
10:11:51  <Alberth> huh?  "# <num> ...."  are processed by nml
10:12:35  <planetmaker> that's whyt I thought so, too
10:12:38  <Alberth> nml uses /* ... */ as comment
10:12:56  <Terkhen> then either I installed it incorrectly or msys is breaking it
10:13:18  <Alberth> oh, it could be yet another different format of those lines easily
10:13:21  <planetmaker> Alberth: but... nml gets fed the usual cpp output with all the
10:13:24  <planetmaker> # 1 "<stdin>"
10:13:26  <planetmaker> # 1 "<built-in>"
10:13:27  <planetmaker> # 1 "<command-line>"
10:13:30  <planetmaker> which... works so far nicely
10:13:35  <planetmaker> at least here and on the CF
10:13:49  <planetmaker> and if you used the makefile on an NML project also for you ;-)
10:14:36  <Alberth> nml/, lines 45 46 has the REs
10:16:13  <Alberth> line 177 should be your case, it seems
10:16:50  <planetmaker> hm... but the same thing parses here
10:18:01  <planetmaker> which basically is # 1...
10:18:35  <planetmaker> can you paste the top of your swedishrails.nml, Terkhen ?
10:20:24  <Terkhen>
10:25:26  <Alberth> line 14 of nml/, add a debug option, as in "return self.parser.parse(text, debug = 1, lexer = self.lexer.lexer)"
10:25:51  <Alberth> although iirc for useful output the value should be bigger than 1
10:26:37  <Ammler> Hello :-)
10:26:46  <Ammler> Terkhen: did you get my comments from last night
10:26:55  <Terkhen> hi Ammler
10:26:58  <planetmaker> that's exactly what I have, Terkhen :-S
10:27:01  <Alberth> good afternoon
10:27:03  <planetmaker> moin Ammler
10:27:10  <Terkhen> it seems that msys does not have utf support at all
10:27:19  <Ammler> you can enable it
10:27:34  <Ammler> chcp 61000
10:28:32  <Terkhen> I found info about it, but fails for me with "command not found"
10:29:56  <Terkhen> let's see if adding it to msys.bat works
10:30:40  <Ammler> checked my history: 65001
10:30:56  <planetmaker> hm, nice. OpenGFX+Trees 0.2.0 is out :-)
10:31:34  <Ammler> but I still have slightly different nfo with mingw
10:31:44  <Ammler> but I see no difference
10:33:12  <Ammler> hmm, you closed #1449?
10:33:13  <Brot6> Ammler: hmm: #1449 is "Example NewGRF Project - Bug #1449: Compiling under MinGW/MSYS - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
10:34:44  <Terkhen> hm
10:35:12  <planetmaker> isn't it solved, Ammler ?
10:35:27  <Terkhen> the nml file is in utf-8, and it shows fine under notepad++, so I wouldn't worry much about cat not showing it correctly
10:35:30  <planetmaker> I thought I added the last needed fix ;-)
10:35:44  <Terkhen> oh, right
10:35:49  <Terkhen> the nfo is completely wrong
10:36:14  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 787:c5bb449a625e: Codechange: Rename OutputBase class to BinaryOu... (Alberth) @
10:36:29  <Ammler> I add my 2 different nfos, it isn't exactly the makefile, but it might help to find the difference
10:37:24  <Ammler> do you find the difference?
10:38:00  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Bug #1449 (Reopened): Compiling under MinGW/MSYS (Ammler) @
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10:42:11  <Ammler> Terkhen: how did you install boost?
10:42:34  <Ammler> somehow simply copy to /include seems not to work anymore....
10:42:38  <Terkhen> tar -C /mingw/include/ --strip-components=1 -xvzf boost_1_44_0.tar.gz --wildcards boost_1_44_0/boost/*
10:42:48  <Terkhen> which is essentially copy to /include
10:42:51  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 788:1cdb57b09f2c: Codechange: Introduce a new output base class, ... (Alberth) @
10:43:03  <Terkhen> grfcodec and nforenum will complain about not finding it, but they compile fine after that
10:45:05  <Terkhen> Ammler: look for Bettwiesen in both nfo files, it appears at different places
10:45:43  <Ammler> but the nml is equal
10:45:53  <Ammler> so this happen with nmlc
10:46:37  <planetmaker> loool? "Bettwiesen"?!
10:46:44  <planetmaker> ymmd! :-) :-D
10:46:53  <Ammler> planetmaker: those are real names :-P
10:47:05  <Ammler> not some "autocombinations"
10:47:10  <planetmaker> just like the Austrian community of 'fucking'?
10:47:14  <Terkhen> I think that the version of python we are using is not prepared for bash and it fails somewhere
10:47:35  <Ammler> how did you install python?
10:47:47  <Terkhen> and since python does not compile under mingw/msys, this cannot be solved easily
10:48:23  <Terkhen> I used the windows version installer from
10:48:47  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 789:594849566ba3: Fix (r780): Typo in variable name. (Alberth) @
10:49:40  <planetmaker> user	0m12.845s vs 0m:27.486 <-- Alberth the advantage of a dep check present at least in OpenGFX when I rebuild it in the process of modifying one thing
10:49:55  <planetmaker> but ... it might only be applicable to base sets where there are several newgrf
10:49:57  <planetmaker> -new
10:50:28  <planetmaker> (I let it re-build the biggest grf in that case, the base one)
10:51:08  <Alberth> euh, ok?
10:51:23  <planetmaker> w/o dep check I'd need to re-build every grf
10:52:08  <Alberth> you're trying to explain the advantage of a dep check in a make to me? :)
10:52:09  <planetmaker> context: Terkhen: even with 'none'? :-(
10:52:10  <planetmaker> [11:21]	<Alberth>	implementing dep calculation is double work at best
10:52:18  <Ammler> quite stupid is, if make clean does make dep check :-)
10:52:34  <planetmaker> Ammler: indeed. VERY.
10:52:35  <Ammler> which happen with nforenum and grfcodec
10:52:49  <planetmaker> But every attempt to get rid of that failed so far for me. I'd love to...
10:52:50  <Ammler> dunno about the newgrf makefile
10:54:01  <Ammler> also creating the Makefile.local is very comfusing
10:54:09  <planetmaker> how so?
10:54:15  <Ammler> at least, there is everything commented out
10:54:19  <planetmaker> yes
10:54:28  <planetmaker> and you only uncomment what you need to localize
10:54:42  <planetmaker> the commented-out stuff tells you what is sensible to change. possibly
10:54:48  <Ammler> if someone needs a local config, he can copy it himself
10:54:59  <planetmaker> of course
10:55:12  <planetmaker> this is just a comfort funciton. Which is IMHO good practise
10:55:24  <Ammler> no, this isn't confort, this is confusing
10:55:43  <planetmaker> you're confusing me. How is it confusing?
10:56:14  <Ammler> because you get the feeling, that it scans your system and adds some values to the Makefile.local according to it
10:56:23  <Ammler> like for example the path to boost
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10:56:33  <planetmaker> hu?
10:56:55  <planetmaker> moin Froix :-)
10:57:02  <Froix> hey!
10:57:02  <planetmaker> congratulations for the new release :-)
10:57:02  <Ammler> the whole Makefile.local is empty, check it :-)
10:57:10  <Ammler> everything commented out
10:57:11  <Froix> mine?
10:57:14  <planetmaker> yes
10:57:27  <planetmaker> Ammler: yes, so?
10:57:33  <Froix> thanks! whose makefile.local?
10:57:34  <planetmaker> I'd call it Makefile.local.sample
10:57:37  <Ammler> so it doesn't help at all, only confuse
10:57:37  <planetmaker> but...
10:57:45  <planetmaker> not yours, Froix
10:57:46  <Ammler> planetmaker: there is one
10:57:53  <Froix> ah ahaha
10:58:04  <Ammler> the makefile does make a copy of that
10:58:16  <planetmaker> well. Ammler, a completely commented out one doesn't hurt either, does it?
10:58:29  <Ammler> how do you know that when you run make?
10:58:36  <planetmaker> ok, I guess I have to look. Talking of grfcodec or renum or both?
10:58:43  <Alberth> That still holds imho. NML should have an include mechanism in some way somewhen, and then making another dep computing seperate from NML is double work at best.
10:58:45  <Ammler> I guess, both
10:59:20  <Ammler> but sicne I had the troubles with grfcodec, I am aware of its stupid uselessness :-)
10:59:56  <Ammler> I wonder, if it was empty also at "dalestan time"?
11:00:36  <planetmaker> Alberth: but ... it should be able to be called separately
11:01:01  <planetmaker> E.g. imaging OpenGFX in NML. There'd be also 6 concurrent nml files. Remaking every one when I just change a pixel in extra would be waste
11:01:01  <Alberth> nmlc --i-want-dependencies-only   ;)
11:01:08  <planetmaker> like that, yes
11:02:58  <planetmaker> but it will need to write it to a separate file, too
11:04:43  <Brot6> GRFCodec - Bug #1507 (New): creating Makefile.local (Ammler) @
11:05:44  <planetmaker> I see now. There's no sense in that :-)
11:06:30  <Ammler> I guess, it is some oldfeature forgotten to remove
11:07:16  <Rubidium> empty makefile.local?
11:07:29  <Rubidium> it quite isn't empty for me (even after a remove + make)
11:12:37  <Ammler> well, if it isn't, it is even more wrong
11:12:46  <Ammler> here it is.
11:16:19  <Ammler> hmm, what does it set for you and why does that need to be saved in the Makefile.local?
11:18:17  <Ammler> in my logic, I Makefile.local should be created manually for local differences :-)
11:18:31  <Ammler> s/I/a/
11:18:41  <planetmaker> Ammler: it's only created empty, if not present. But not touched and modified, if it is present
11:19:01  <planetmaker> empty in terms of 'everything commented out'
11:19:13  <Ammler> that's not what the make process told
11:19:24  <Ammler> it said, it does use the default values
11:20:01  <planetmaker> it does
11:20:20  <planetmaker> or does it say so, too, if Makefile.local is present?
11:23:50  <Ammler> How would that make sense?
11:23:52  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 790:2d8f15032731: Codechange: Refactor output filename and file h... (Alberth) @
11:30:01  <Froix> hey! see you kids later!
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11:32:57  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 791:02074b6bb0fc: Doc: Document the BinaryOutputBase class a litt... (Hirundo) @
11:39:54  <Alberth> I must use ??? more often :)
11:39:59  <Alberth> Thanks
11:40:58  <Brot6> NFORenum - Bug #1508 (New): [mingw] data dir .nforenum (Ammler) @
11:44:10  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 792:891f00c6d724: Codechange: Move 'close' method to base class. (Alberth) @
11:44:54  <Ammler> building opengfx on mingw, I got a different md5sum for the ogfx1_base.grf
11:45:00  <Ammler> the other matches
11:53:33  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #1509 (New): nfo header twice (Ammler) @
12:04:02  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 793:eb95737baf61: Codechange: Move 'open' method to the common ba... (Alberth) @
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12:14:51  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 794:9b3e13eff912: Feature (#1499): Write files after finishing co... (Alberth) @
12:16:01  <Alberth> he, no #NUM expansion of your own messages?
12:16:51  <planetmaker> of brot's? that'd trigger a nasty loop, I gues
12:16:53  <planetmaker> s
12:18:37  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1499 (Closed): Delete half-finished grf upon failure (Alberth) @
12:19:57  <planetmaker> hm, so I can revert my .DELETE_ON_ERROR %.grf ?
12:22:33  <Alberth> revert? was it wrong then? I'd commit an undo due to improvements made in NML :)
12:23:21  <planetmaker> :-)
12:23:56  <planetmaker> So the difference between 'revert' and 'undo' is 'wrong' and 'not needed anymore'? :-)
12:27:42  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 201:046185eaa0cd: Change: Modularize the dep check even more (planetmaker) @
12:29:56  <Alberth> that's one way of looking at it :)
12:30:15  <Alberth> I'll be back in several hours
12:30:24  <planetmaker> enjoy :-)
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13:28:24  <andythenorth> Rubidium: it's just GRFCodec
13:28:33  <andythenorth> nforenum is just a helper app
13:29:15  <andythenorth> giving the package any other name is a bad idea, and will cause boring support issues :P
13:33:10  <Ammler>  planetmaker up to release a bugfix version for ogfx?
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13:54:16  <FooBar> hi everyone!
14:12:56  *** Hirundo is now known as everyone
14:13:04  <everyone> hi FooBar
14:13:07  *** everyone is now known as Hirundo
14:13:22  <FooBar> heh :)
14:13:32  <Ammler> thanks Hirundo :-)
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14:38:43  <Brot6> NFORenum - Revision 504:0b9d467aad21: Codechange: Use macros to construct special formattings and... (frosch) @
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14:58:09  <Ammler> our server has 2x700GB disk space, what shall we do with it?
14:58:25  <Ammler> SWRAID is useless, isn't?
15:01:07  <Rubidium> why would software raid be useless?
15:03:15  <Ammler> well, not useless, like a realtime backup but slower
15:04:03  <Rubidium> actually, it shouldn't be must slower write-wise; the actual writing takes the time
15:04:34  <Rubidium> and your access time under IO load should become smaller as it can spread it over two disks
15:05:31  <Ammler> hmm, but not with RAID1?
15:05:46  <Ammler> isn't that just a mirroring?
15:06:06  <Rubidium> yes, RAID1 is just mirroring
15:06:20  <frosch123> raid1 is the only sane raid with two disks :)
15:06:20  <Ammler> can I do something else with 2 disks?
15:06:34  <Rubidium> Ammler: RAID0
15:06:41  <Ammler> well :-)
15:06:46  <andythenorth> RAID0 on two disks is bonkers
15:06:56  <frosch123> raid0 stores data accross 2 disks, doubling data rate, but increasing failure rate
15:07:46  <Ammler> ah, I see, not just one big disk?
15:07:56  <andythenorth> about the only valid RAID0 case is for video render/playback scratch
15:08:11  <frosch123> Ammler: yes, one big disk. but if one breaks all data is lsot
15:08:15  <andythenorth> Ammler: you can do JBOTD with multiple disks, but it's another insane case
15:08:47  <Ammler> i guess, i use one disk and do a rsync on hourly basis with nice or ionice
15:09:24  <Rubidium> andythenorth: what does that stand for? I know JBOD and the only "expansion" of JBOTD makes no sense (Jesus born on this day)
15:13:10  <Ammler> XenServer seems to work nicely, not sure, if I shall test KVM too
15:13:11  <andythenorth> JBOD
15:13:14  <andythenorth> I mistyped :P
15:13:27  <andythenorth> Ammler: are you talking about a server or desktop box
15:13:33  <Ammler> server
15:13:54  <Ammler> the new DevZone :-)
15:15:00  <andythenorth> there are various schemes you can do with putting swap on multiple volumes
15:15:15  <andythenorth> whether it's worth it is a matter of conjecture (and boring testing)
15:15:17  <Ammler> swap?
15:15:29  <Ammler> I don't think, we will need much swap at all
15:15:38  <andythenorth> how much RAM does redmine eat?
15:15:44  <Ammler> 1GB
15:15:46  <andythenorth> is the box not in swap *a lot*
15:16:00  <andythenorth> I guess maybe there is only one RM instance?
15:16:05  <Ammler> current box ha no swap, afaik
15:16:05  <andythenorth> and nothing else RAM hungry?
15:16:11  <andythenorth> no swap at all?
15:16:16  * andythenorth is surprised
15:16:39  <Ammler>              total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
15:16:40  <Ammler> Mem:       2097152    1413360     683792          0          0          0
15:16:42  <Ammler> -/+ buffers/cache:    1413360     683792
15:16:43  <Ammler> Swap:            0          0          0
15:16:49  <andythenorth> :o
15:17:17  <andythenorth> your world is different to mine :(
15:17:33  <Ammler> I guess, today you rather make ramdisk then swap :-)
15:17:40  <andythenorth> on our production boxes, for every 1GB RAM, we're normally using another 0.5GB swap
15:18:26  <Ammler> andythenorth: yes, as you had boxes with RAM <= 1GB
15:19:24  <Ammler> the new server has 8GB, I plan to use around 2-4 per box
15:19:29  <Ammler> dunno how the "sharing" works
15:21:16  <andythenorth> Ammler: I am looking at an 8GB box with 3GB swap.  We just bought a 24GB box and gave it a dedicated 32GB swap volume
15:21:35  <andythenorth> depends on what the workload is I guess :)
15:21:40  <Ammler> one box for redmine, one for bundles (apache), one or more for the compiler, one for openttd
15:22:19  <Ammler> andythenorth: well, is the swap used?
15:22:36  <andythenorth> yes, I mean 3GB swap in use :)
15:22:42  <Ammler> it is imo stupied, to put everything to ram, when it then needs swap,
15:22:50  <andythenorth> it gets interesting when we fill swap :P
15:22:53  <andythenorth> which happens sometimes
15:23:39  <Ammler> I assume, you "keep" every sql query?
15:24:11  <andythenorth> not much sql
15:24:15  <andythenorth> it's python object databases
15:24:23  <andythenorth> they eat a lot of space
15:24:48  <Ammler> well, it might be easier to keep them in memory then on disk?
15:25:25  <andythenorth> Ammler: it's a nice idea, which is why we just bought a 24GB box
15:25:48  <Ammler> well, I use LVM anyway
15:25:55  <andythenorth> but moving around tens of apps for paying clients isn't so easy :)
15:26:01  <Ammler> so it wouldn't be a big task to change such things
15:26:06  <andythenorth> there's downtime, and QA, and it costs money and stuff
15:26:20  <andythenorth> and sometimes there are upstream issues, like domains pointing at a certain IP
15:26:47  <andythenorth> but in principle, yes you're correct ;)
15:27:05  <Ammler> current DevZone works nicely and it has everything, I hope it won't get worse :-P
15:27:47  <Ammler> I just would like to have redmine completely apache free
15:28:54  <Ammler> I also need to learn, how ipv6 works, as I have only 3 useable IPv4 addresses :-)
15:30:24  <Ammler> at least the compiler doesn't need ipv4
15:31:57  <Ammler> or shall I setup NAT?
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15:34:00  <Brot6> NFORenum - Revision 505:081c9b85200f: Codechange: Use macros to describe properties in _dat0 with... (frosch) @
15:35:41  <andythenorth> Ammler:  you can just proxy from one box to the others as needed?  with apache or NAT
15:36:50  <Ammler> yeah, the question is, since I have ipv6 there, is it worth to setup NAT :-)
15:38:07  <Ammler> my ipv6 network: 2a01:4f8:121:3343:: / 64
15:39:04  <Ammler> I have a full ipv4 network to use :-)
16:20:26  <Brot6> firs: update from r1366 to r1370 done -
16:20:50  <Brot6> newgrf_makefile: update from r190 to r201 done (140 errors) -
16:22:25  <Brot6> nforenum: update from r502 to r505 done -
16:23:15  <Brot6> nml: update from r785 to r794 done -
16:23:42  <Brot6> ogfx-trees: update from r21 to r23 done (3 errors) -
16:24:13  <Brot6> portuguesetowns: update from  to r3 done -
16:24:33  <Brot6> swisstowns: update from r18 to r19 done -
16:24:39  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r613), 32bpp-extra (r39), ai-admiralai (r66), airportsplus (r62), basecosts (r20), belarusiantowns (r7), comic-houses (r71), fish (r390), frenchtowns (r4), grfcodec (r253), heqs (r372), metrotrackset (r56), nutracks (r115), ogfx-test (r529), ogfxplus (r42), opengfx (r539), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), snowlinemod (r42), swedishrails (r181), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer
16:24:39  <Brot6> (r25), ttrs (r20), worldairlinersset (r663)
16:27:22  <Brot6> basecosts: rebuild of r20 done (Diffsize: 12) (DiffDiffsize: 7) -
16:28:23  <Brot6> comic-houses: rebuild of r71 done (3 errors) (Diffsize: 14) (DiffDiffsize: 7) -
16:31:21  <Brot6> heqs: rebuild of r372 done (Diffsize: 2) (DiffDiffsize: 5) -
16:31:58  <Brot6> metrotrackset: rebuild of r56 done (Diffsize: 2) (DiffDiffsize: 5) -
16:37:46  <Brot6> NFORenum - Revision 506:f71c6874e33b: Codechange: Use macros to construct the remaining parts of ... (frosch) @
16:38:06  <frosch123> done :)
16:39:48  <Brot6> swedishrails: rebuild of r181 done (Diffsize: 6) (DiffDiffsize: 8) -
16:40:27  <Brot6> transrapidtrackset: rebuild of r15 done (Diffsize: 13) (DiffDiffsize: 7) -
16:42:58  <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: 2cctrainset (7 errors) (Diffsize: 1), 32bpp-extra (Diffsize: 1), airportsplus (Diffsize: 1), belarusiantowns (3 errors) (Diffsize: 22), firs (Diffsize: 6), fish (4 errors) (Diffsize: 1), frenchtowns (4 errors) (Diffsize: 10), newgrf_makefile (140 errors) (Diffsize: 6), nutracks (2 errors) (Diffsize: 1), ogfx-test (Diffsize: 1), ogfxplus (Diffsize: 7),
16:42:58  <Brot6> opengfx (Diffsize: 2), snowlinemod (Diffsize: 1), ttrs (7 errors) (Diffsize: 6), worldairlinersset (Diffsize: 1)
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17:35:19  <Brot6> Portuguese Town Names - Feature Request #1505 (Closed): Portuguese Town Names (Ammler) @
17:40:37  <Alberth> oh, you are collecting town names of the world ?  :p
17:46:28  <Ammler> Alberth: I guess, it was rather Rubidium forwarding them to me ;-)
17:47:17  <planetmaker> Ammler: let's move here. My point is: Please aks always what the bug is.
17:47:30  <planetmaker> I want to know what they consider harmful.
17:47:37  <planetmaker> I know what you consider harmful.
17:47:45  <Ammler> please read the IRC
17:47:47  <planetmaker> And now I only know what _you_ _assume_
17:47:49  <planetmaker> yes, I did
17:47:56  <Ammler> he asked me
17:48:17  <Rubidium> Ammler: I've not forwarded the latter two
17:48:36  <Ammler> I know the 0.3.0 bugs, I told before you announced 0.3.0 :-)
17:48:54  <planetmaker> Ammler: yes he did. And I do ask you: please ask for what he considers the bug
17:49:18  <planetmaker> Even though _you_ know what is wrong, it *might* be something else
17:49:18  <Ammler> well, next time, I say, speak with pm, sorry
17:49:43  <Alberth> Rubidium: it must be the same mechanism that forms planets, once you have some of them together, they form a gravity field that pulls in more :)
17:49:47  <planetmaker> Your answer was fine.
17:49:57  <planetmaker> But I'd like the info what 'the bugs' is for him.
17:50:03  <planetmaker> That did not become clear.
17:50:16  <Ammler> yeah, for me they were
17:50:19  <planetmaker> It might be what I wrote. It might be more
17:50:28  <planetmaker> it might be different
17:50:33  <planetmaker> Assumptions don't help
17:50:41  * Rubidium blames
17:51:12  <Ammler> I think, it is a bit stupid, if you ask someone "what bug?", if you are fully aware, it doesn't build for rpm
17:51:35  <Alberth> that helps gravity a lot :)
17:51:36  <planetmaker> He doesn't build an RPM. That's the point
17:51:48  <Ammler> he is the fedora guy
17:51:58  <planetmaker> That's rpm, too?
17:52:02  <Alberth> yes
17:52:19  <planetmaker> oh :-) I though he was... *buntu or so
17:52:23  <Ammler> yes, fedora is the openRedHat
17:52:37  <Rubidium> ubuntu uses Debian's packages directly
17:53:55  <Ammler> I used mainly the specs from heffer to build my own
17:54:00  <Rubidium> and RPM's originally the abbreviation of "red hat package manager" (with Fedora being the desktop variant of Red Hat)
17:54:10  <planetmaker> that I know
17:54:55  <Ammler> Rubidium: s/desktop/opensource/
17:55:04  <Ammler> or free or whatever
17:55:15  <Ammler> I guess, RHEL does have destop too
17:56:01  <Ammler> and the free server variant is centos
17:56:02  <Alberth> RHEL is aimed at servers in racks
17:56:38  <Alberth> and *terribly* old
17:56:56  <Ammler> hmm, thought it is like sle
17:57:15  <Ammler> there you have sles and sled :-)
17:57:46  <Alberth> Ammler: do you accept homeless townnames grfs?  I have one with dutch station names, and it may want a better home than sitting at my HD
17:58:05  <planetmaker> poor grf :-(
17:58:17  <planetmaker> orphaned :-(
17:58:31  <planetmaker> I think the DevZone can offer asylum :-)
17:58:35  <Ammler> hehe, of course, we should found a room or at least a bed for it :-)
17:59:28  * planetmaker wonders though why _station_ names would make a good _town_ name newgrf :-P
17:59:43  <Ammler> Alberth: add project here:
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18:00:28  <Ammler> I someone wuld like to make a swiss names generator
18:00:33  <Ammler> sometime*
18:02:52  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: update from r20823 to r20824 done -
18:04:34  <Ammler> Alberth: in which language is it made?
18:04:49  <Alberth> nml
18:05:35  <Ammler> if you don't have a makefile, just add bash script which greates the file
18:05:43  <Ammler> c*
18:06:22  <Ammler> and set type "bash.nml"
18:06:46  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1371:8716df789c3c: Add: source psd file for Forge (andythenorth) @
18:06:46  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1372:32376925348d: Feature: improved layout for Brick Works (andythenorth) @
18:06:46  <Brot6> Town Names - Feature Request #1510 (New): Dutch station names (Alberth) @
18:07:10  <Alberth> not sure this is what you intended ?
18:07:47  <Ammler> :-P
18:07:57  <Ammler> it is fine, I can add that way...
18:08:28  <planetmaker> hehe. You don't like the makefiles ;-)
18:08:43  <Ammler> I love them
18:08:57  <Ammler> I wasn't just not able to use them
18:09:09  <Ammler> but I learned a bit
18:09:36  <planetmaker> it usually needs 4 variables adjusted in Makefile.config
18:09:43  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 202:e849da43df11: Fix: Intermediate files were not found when u... (planetmaker) @
18:09:55  <planetmaker> and maybe a bit .hgignore
18:10:16  <Ammler> well, and in my case bash support
18:10:30  <Ammler> for loops, awk etc.
18:10:40  <planetmaker> that's all there ;-)
18:10:43  <planetmaker>
18:10:48  <Ammler> yeah, :-P
18:10:49  <planetmaker> define your own rule
18:10:59  <planetmaker> if you need it.
18:11:10  <planetmaker> cat the bash script :-)
18:11:31  <planetmaker> but I'm just teasing you :-)
18:12:04  <Ammler> I tried a bit Makefile "hacking" with ttdp support and custom_tags for all
18:12:11  <Ammler> and already failed
18:12:15  <planetmaker> did it?
18:12:40  <Ammler> the ttdp support works, but not committed, I let that to you
18:12:52  <Ammler> but the custom_tags things is a bit harder...
18:13:10  <planetmaker> yes. I'm grinding my teeth on that, too
18:13:14  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r20823 to r20824 done -
18:13:36  <Ammler> hmm, might be nice, if you add that patch before the 0.3.1 release
18:13:47  <planetmaker> but it might work with a bit more re-factoring and modularization :-)
18:13:52  <planetmaker> which?
18:13:54  <planetmaker> ttdp?
18:13:56  <Ammler> yes
18:14:32  <Ammler> then I would make that bundle with the compiler
18:15:55  <Ammler> or shall we keep it at tt-forums?
18:19:05  <Brot6> Swiss Town Names - Feature #1511 (New): merge big and small list (Ammler) @
18:19:20  <planetmaker> I recalled only later one of Rubidium's arguments: It might be better to not associate oneself with the original base set in order to not get into any copyright discussion already from that point
18:19:46  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 203:b8ec5a5fd2b6: Don't preprocess those doc files which don't ... (planetmaker) @
18:21:56  <Ammler> well, that is whole point about opengfx, isn't?
18:22:54  <Ammler> I fear more the confusion about people which download it and thinks "oh nice, the original set for free" :-)
18:23:21  <Brot6> serverpatches: update from h6d709b4c to h3ac959b5 done (2 errors) -
18:25:20  <planetmaker> Which will already put the doubt of copyright violation on us.
18:25:53  <Ammler> yes, which is fine, we aren't
18:26:07  <planetmaker> o-O
18:26:27  <Ammler> or in other words, the server belongs to neutral Swiss :-)
18:27:11  <Ammler> you can't life with "wrong" violations?
18:29:23  <Ammler> isn't the whole point about to play the "bad boy" part? :-P
18:30:08  <Ammler> like packman does for suse
18:30:48  <planetmaker> The server is in Germany
18:32:10  <Ammler> hehe, I should request some dimplomatic imunity :-P
18:32:33  <Alberth> Ammler: your creation of 1511 implies that #1327 is really finished?
18:32:33  <Brot6> Alberth: Ammler: #1327 is "NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #1327: allow more than 255 names - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
18:32:59  <Ammler> Alberth: I am not 100% sure
18:33:10  <Ammler> I have a bit troubles to test it proparly
18:33:34  <Alberth> yes, > 255 names make it difficult by definition, almost
18:33:35  <Brot6> newgrf_makefile: update from 0.4.3 to 0.4.4 done (140 errors) -
18:33:44  <planetmaker> o_O
18:33:54  <planetmaker> 140 bloody errors?!
18:34:08  <Ammler> you didn't see teh nightly build?
18:34:24  <planetmaker> hm, no
18:34:38  <Ammler> maybe we should make a Threshold which also produces a failed?
18:35:29  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 204:39ee1c0797dc: Doc: Update changelog for 0.4.4 (planetmaker) @
18:35:30  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 205:cd21fbed7486: Added tag 0.4.4 for changeset 39ee1c0797dc (planetmaker) @
18:35:31  <planetmaker> lol. The errors are the sed output complaining about the invalid option -E
18:35:33  <Ammler> Alberth: swisstowns has 2000 names, since I use nml split, I got less names on a big map
18:35:47  <Ammler> should it be -e?
18:36:20  <planetmaker> not according to my manual:      -E      Interpret regular expressions as extended (modern) regular
18:36:20  <Ammler> Alberth: but currently that is quite bad coded, I fear
18:36:21  <planetmaker>              expressions rather than basic regular expressions (BRE's).  The
18:36:23  <planetmaker>              re_format(7) manual page fully describes both formats.
18:37:32  <planetmaker> hm, alright. No -e
18:37:35  <planetmaker> no -E
18:37:37  <planetmaker> damn
18:37:55  <Ammler> -r, --regexp-extended
18:37:57  <Ammler> use extended regular expressions in the script.
18:38:09  <Ammler> -e is something else
18:38:21  <Ammler> -e script, --expression=script
18:38:22  <Ammler> add the script to the commands to be executed
18:38:30  <planetmaker> -r is not valid here
18:39:17  <planetmaker> and I mean -E as described above. But that's not valid there. Oh well
18:39:19  <planetmaker> Beauty...
18:39:23  <Ammler> hmm
18:39:41  <planetmaker> And I nearly pushed that to OpenGFX
18:39:43  <Ammler> but your -E is mine -r, isn't?
18:40:22  <Ammler> -e is kind of default, afaik
18:40:23  <planetmaker> I think not quite
18:40:30  <planetmaker> -E doesn't refer to a script
18:40:53  <Ammler> sed -e "s/jjj/lll/" = sed "s/jjj/lll/"
18:41:15  <Ammler> "s/jjj/lll/" is the script
18:41:24  <planetmaker> then it might be the same
18:41:31  <Ammler> (afaik) :-)
18:42:43  <Ammler> what is your sed version?
18:43:01  <Ammler> GNU sed version 4.1.5
18:43:15  <planetmaker> I just try to find out... it doesn't accept -? -h --help
18:43:21  <Ammler> --version
18:44:07  <planetmaker> neither
18:44:10  <planetmaker> BSD                              May 10, 2005                              BSD
18:44:17  <planetmaker> verbatim without change obviously
18:44:18  <Rubidium> ancient!
18:44:31  <planetmaker> But in the very bottom it also says that -E is a non-standard BSD extension to sed
18:45:41  <planetmaker> damn
18:49:06  <frosch123> <- complicated enough?
18:50:27  <planetmaker> o_O
18:50:39  <planetmaker> frosch123: what are those unlabeled roundish things?
18:51:40  <frosch123> nodes where only the incident edges have a meaning?
18:52:37  <Alberth> but you are removing all the magic!
18:52:40  <Rubidium> the lowest unlabeled one has edges with "ship", "non-ship", so what's the third? Everything? So you're basically parallelising?
18:52:41  <planetmaker> those with incoming and outgoing arrows
18:52:58  <planetmaker> like what Rubidium just mentioned
18:53:06  <frosch123> Alberth: i already added a "#define MAGIC 0x08                 /* Various meanings */" to nforenum today :)
18:53:26  <planetmaker> that node is absolutely not clear to me :-)
18:53:39  <Rubidium> the top empty one could be "vehicle type?"
18:53:44  <frosch123> hmm, oh, yes that one is difficult :)
18:54:22  <frosch123> it means that the "pick first refittable" uses the refitmask from the empty node, i.e. before applying the ship 'refittable' flag :)
18:57:24  <frosch123> updated image
19:02:30  <planetmaker> still the unlabeled node will need explanation. But the text which accompanies it might do that
19:05:09  <planetmaker> but I like it :-)
19:05:22  <planetmaker> it's the best description ever on this topic :-)
19:06:41  <frosch123> updated again
19:06:52  <frosch123> no idea what to put in the remaining empty node
19:08:57  <planetmaker> frosch123: "actual refit mask" ?
19:09:17  <planetmaker> it would fit a square box
19:09:43  <frosch123> it is only an intermediate result
19:09:44  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 206:1968f4237c6c: Fix (r191): Don't use BSD-only extensions of sed (planetmaker) @
19:10:15  <Alberth> 'copy refitmask' to cargo slots   ?
19:10:16  <planetmaker> is it?
19:10:37  <planetmaker> except for ships it's the final refit mask, isn't it?
19:11:20  <frosch123> i could move the "refitmask" from the dashed arrow to the node?
19:11:26  <planetmaker> couldn't then the dashed line be instead from that from 'final refittability' to 'pick first refittable'?
19:12:13  <frosch123> that would be wrong :)
19:12:25  <frosch123> the dashed line has to start before applying the ship flag
19:12:35  <planetmaker> hm
19:13:04  <frosch123> someone knows how to include some caption into the image?
19:13:19  <frosch123> i want to add date and disclaimer
19:15:27  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 207:5d99d5a1626c: Doc: Update changelog for 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
19:15:27  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 208:e1554f354ba4: Added tag 0.4.5 for changeset 5d99d5a1626c (planetmaker) @
19:15:36  <Brot6> newgrf_makefile: update from 0.4.4 to 0.4.5 done -
19:15:42  <planetmaker> let's see whether I still have 140 errors :-P
19:15:50  <planetmaker> tag-inflation
19:16:01  <Ammler> planetmaker: also if we don't publish the ttdp variant on our server, it wuold be nice to have it, so it would be possible to build tag
19:17:14  <Ammler> hmm, I never tried to force a version, is that possible?
19:19:19  <planetmaker> with the build system? Hm... I never tried either
19:19:25  <planetmaker> Maybe, maybe not
19:19:32  <planetmaker> depends on the use of := or ?=
19:19:38  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 540:083114cb2eb6: Change: Update to Makefile 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
19:20:49  <Ammler> make bundle_ttdp REPO_TAGS=0.3.0 worked :-)
19:21:00  <planetmaker> :-)
19:21:42  <Alberth> frosch123: make a rank with the top-3 nodes, and add a node with the text and an invisible box?
19:22:49  <Alberth> alternatively, use some image program to add the text :)
19:23:26  <planetmaker> I don't know what method you used, frosch123, but I'd just add it with xv or gimp ^
19:23:55  <planetmaker> hm... maybe my xv memory on water marks / copyright notices is wrong though
19:24:16  <frosch123> postprocessing is not acceptable :) i'll add a boxed node
19:34:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1373:6beb7c3d2d82: Change: Update to Makefile 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
19:36:34  <andythenorth> planetmaker: did the makefile just get a *lot* faster?
19:36:50  <planetmaker> maybe? But I don't think so
19:36:54  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 391:3f303af8a810: Change: Update to Makefile 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
19:36:59  <planetmaker> But you can disable the dep check now
19:39:55  <Ammler> planetmaker: with the makefile framework, the only file, which someone needs to change are Makefile.config, and ?
19:40:09  <Ammler> wouldn't it make sense to make a own tool with it?
19:40:14  <planetmaker> Usually only Makefile.config
19:40:27  <planetmaker> The first 4 entries
19:40:29  <Ammler> which you install like nml
19:40:32  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 373:b68f900a716c: Change: Update to Makefile 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
19:40:44  <planetmaker> Yes, it might make sense...
19:41:11  <planetmaker> andythenorth: ^your projects are updated ;-)
19:41:13  <Ammler> then the whole testing would be done the the compiler
19:41:21  * andythenorth pulls
19:41:22  <planetmaker> hm?
19:41:37  <planetmaker> I don't understand, Ammler
19:41:53  <planetmaker> oh oh...
19:42:00  <planetmaker> I need to check HEQS and FISH again
19:42:11  <Ammler> now you need to apply the Makefile framework yourself to test it on other projects, I assume?
19:42:28  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you broke FISH :D
19:42:29  <planetmaker> yes. But I have an update script in the repo
19:42:46  <planetmaker> andythenorth: just noticed... missing files
19:43:28  <andythenorth> also FIRS broken for 'make install'
19:43:36  <andythenorth> "install: firs.grf: No such file or directory"
19:43:58  <planetmaker> hm
19:44:00  * Terkhen tests
19:44:23  <planetmaker> grr
19:44:34  <Ammler> another possiblity would still be a inclusion to the Makefile to update itself
19:44:42  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 392:4b86876ee54f: Fix (r391): Add all needed files (planetmaker) @
19:44:59  <Ammler> currently every project using it needs you to maintain it
19:45:33  <Ammler> which is fine if you do for them :-)
19:45:52  <planetmaker> Ammler: they don't. Everyone can use the Makefile and update it.
19:46:12  <planetmaker> releases are readily availble from our bundles server
19:46:21  <Ammler> hmm, maybe I submit a patch for your update script
19:47:04  <Ammler> which allows something like ./ ../myproject
19:47:35  <andythenorth> planetmaker: FISH now builds, but install fails :)
19:48:07  <Ammler> andythenorth: run with _V= and check the path it likes to use
19:48:10  <planetmaker> yes...
19:48:18  <planetmaker> it's missing an update in the config
19:48:22  <planetmaker> DOC_FILES =
19:49:07  <Ammler> hmm, you really don't change that? :-P
19:49:26  <planetmaker> that's new...
19:49:50  <Ammler> no I mean that after make all, make install shouldn't build
19:50:26  <planetmaker> hm?
19:50:26  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1374:aa9edd4d7dc8: Fix (r1373): Update the config file c... (planetmaker) @
19:50:49  <Ammler> if you don't build docs, you might also not like to install those
19:50:58  <Ammler> or you should add docs to all
19:51:01  <planetmaker> I didn't yet change that
19:51:10  <planetmaker> But the readme should be built
19:51:22  <planetmaker> I want them installed by default
19:51:30  <Ammler> yep, then build it with all
19:51:46  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the full grfcodec output is again visible ;)
19:51:50  <andythenorth> (undesired)
19:52:02  <Ammler> andythenorth: update grfcodec
19:52:03  <andythenorth> but make install works again for FIRS
19:52:32  <andythenorth> update grfcodec *again* :P
19:52:33  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 374:9cd5e6867444: Fix (r373): Update the config file comp... (planetmaker) @
19:52:42  <Ammler> hehe
19:52:52  <andythenorth> can we make grfcodec an upstream dependency for newgrf make?
19:53:45  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 393:19fdb33e5f74: Fix (r391): And also change the config correspondingly in all p... (planetmaker) @
19:53:46  <Ammler> well, it works with 1.0, just not that silent
19:54:02  <Alberth> grfcodec:\n\thg -R /path/to/grfcodec fetch
19:54:27  <Ammler> what does fetch?
19:54:33  <Ammler> is that "pull -u"?
19:54:43  <planetmaker> I think so
19:54:45  <andythenorth> I updated grfcodec
19:54:52  <andythenorth> still got all the pcx output
19:54:55  <Alberth> yes
19:54:58  <planetmaker> andythenorth: can you test your newgrf again?
19:55:19  <Ammler> andythenorth: and firs is using newest grfcodec?
19:55:23  <planetmaker> I *think* I didn't miss to add or change a line now :-) But good that you tested immediately :-)
19:55:29  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 375:de39a49baa3c: Fix (r373): And add a forgotten file... (planetmaker) @
19:56:19  <Ammler> maybe you still use a wine variant :-P
19:56:52  <andythenorth> grfcodec r227
19:57:03  <andythenorth> hmm
19:57:09  <andythenorth> tip is r253
19:57:11  <andythenorth> :P
19:57:35  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Revision 614:e6d81f79152e: Change: Update to Makefile 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
19:58:52  <andythenorth> grfcodec sorted
19:59:36  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 116:ba7f9463c9fe: Change: Update to Makefile 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
20:00:58  <andythenorth> FISH now failing to build due to fatal errors
20:01:00  <andythenorth> guess that's legit
20:04:09  <Brot6> Swedish Rails - Revision 182:381cf6d73326: Change: Update to Makefile 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
20:04:34  <planetmaker> hm... FISH built for me
20:06:56  <andythenorth> ah.
20:07:29  <andythenorth> I extended some ships to support prop 1C which will be invalid as far as renum is concerned
20:07:39  <planetmaker> ah, yes
20:08:34  <planetmaker> Use NFO_WARN_LEVEL=9 for those cases
20:08:58  <andythenorth> so many switches to learn :o
20:09:17  <planetmaker> hm. one?
20:09:25  <planetmaker> ok, two.
20:09:52  <planetmaker> But I guess I should document NFO_WARN_LEVEL ;-)
20:13:25  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Airports - Revision 63:af6c0df7052b: Change: Update to makefile 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
20:16:02  <planetmaker> though it might be questionable somewhat, if all those projects actually *need* a makefile update...
20:16:53  <Terkhen> FIRS r1374 compiles without errors under mingw/msys :)
20:17:46  <Brot6> Snowline mod - Revision 43:803d5017c747: Change: Update to Makefile 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
20:17:47  <planetmaker> I guess that is a good reason for an update :-)
20:18:07  <planetmaker> funnily enough, FIRS has 1k revisions more than HEQS ;-)
20:18:24  <planetmaker> the makefile update was exactly the same version mod 1k
20:22:46  <Ammler> how do I see, which dep check it uses?
20:25:22  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trees - Revision 24:24cb33fb23be: Fix: Merge indentically taged heads... (planetmaker) @
20:26:07  <planetmaker> Ammler: I guess you don't
20:26:18  <planetmaker> But good point :-)
20:26:47  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trees - Revision 25:83a51c808ae1: Change: Update to makefile 0.4.5 (planetmaker) @
20:26:53  <planetmaker> OpenGFX+trees had two hads, each taged as 0.2.0... :-(
20:27:36  <Ammler> Alberth: fetch is a extension :-P
20:28:18  <Alberth> I am aware of that
20:29:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1375:eee967b315c8: Change: stub cde to support preventin... (andythenorth) @
20:29:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1376:82a05e052387: Change: work in progress - graphics f... (andythenorth) @
20:29:09  <Ammler> what are .cnfo?
20:29:18  <andythenorth> bed time
20:29:21  <planetmaker> the output from cpp
20:29:30  <andythenorth> good night
20:29:35  <planetmaker> I split cpp and sed
20:29:37  <planetmaker> good night andythenorth
20:29:47  <Ammler> oh, sed after gcc?
20:29:56  <planetmaker> splitting that makes cpp failures fatal
20:30:01  <planetmaker> allowing to skip a dep check
20:30:08  <planetmaker> yes
20:30:42  <Ammler> but that means, you run every file through sed?
20:30:58  <planetmaker> every source file. yes
20:31:10  <planetmaker> I don't know in which to replace the VERSION etc
20:31:27  <Rubidium> then I hope VERSION isn't defined somewhere :
20:31:31  <Rubidium> +)
20:31:39  <planetmaker> {{VERSION}}
20:32:12  <Rubidium> yes, cpp replacing VERSION with whatever VERSION's defined to. That'll be fun
20:32:42  <Rubidium> e.g. some GCCs define BIG_ENDIAN, so that some define VERSION wouldn't be that far fetched
20:32:43  <planetmaker> actually... {{GRF_ID}} and {{REPO_TITLE}}
20:32:46  <planetmaker> less likely ;-)
20:32:51  <Rubidium> true
20:32:58  <Ammler> Rubidium: but only [::space::]VERSION[::space::]
20:33:07  <Rubidium> but if you're using gcc/cpp
20:33:33  <Alberth> good night
20:33:38  <planetmaker> g'night, Alberth
20:33:42  <Ammler> nightly
20:34:00  *** Alberth has left #openttdcoop.devzone
20:34:11  <Rubidium> Ammler: #define FOO
20:34:16  <Rubidium> Ammler: {{FOO}}
20:34:31  <Rubidium> run that through gcc -E and you'll see what I mean
20:34:59  <Rubidium> in any case, if you're using CPP, can't you make use of -DVERSION="" -DGRF_ID="1234" and such?
20:35:07  <Rubidium> would be more efficient
20:39:50  <planetmaker> Hm, I shall play with that again. There were some issues with that, but the issues might have been me
20:40:51  <Ammler> planetmaker: maybe the same assumption I had why I thought rubi is wrong
20:41:34  <Ammler> so the "nfo issue" is that \bFOO doesn't work, but {FOO} would
20:42:39  <Ammler> s/{FOO}/FOO/
20:45:01  <planetmaker> That's definitely worth to check ,yes
20:45:19  <Ammler> even FOO-BAR works
20:45:37  <Ammler> what are valid cc vars?
20:46:47  <planetmaker> alnum
20:47:06  <planetmaker> There's a hassle with "
20:48:21  <Ammler> <stdin>:2:5: warning: missing terminating " character <-- this?
20:50:53  <Ammler> hmm, or why not simply convert custom_tags to #define and add it on top?
20:54:50  <Ammler> and maybe add a underscore in front, so you don't accidentially replace a "real" word
20:55:06  <Ammler> underline*
20:56:27  <planetmaker> Ammler: changing custom_tags.txt to a #define is what sounds like a way to do. Though it'll need an intermediate step
20:56:39  <planetmaker> so it might just as well be custom_define or so
20:56:57  <planetmaker> or at least that might be a first easy step
20:57:20  <Ammler> yeah, should be something else anyway
20:57:32  <Ammler> as you can't use {VAR}
20:58:14  <Ammler> but _VAR_ would work :-)
20:59:38  <frosch123> <- sorry, i missed some points about aircraft :p
21:01:52  <planetmaker> Ammler: it's no problem to change the name of what is replaced
21:01:59  <planetmaker> __VAR__ might be good, too. Though many system vars are named like that - so... maybe not
21:02:06  <Ammler> just _VAR
21:02:42  <Ammler> make it configureable :-P
21:03:05  <Ammler> VAR_PREFIX=_ \nVAR_SUFFIX=
21:03:41  <planetmaker> :-P - it didn't get 'better', frosch123 ;-)
21:04:40  <planetmaker> Ammler: the best thing would be a replacement file which allows additional custom replacements
21:05:51  <Ammler> yep, same format as custom_tags
21:08:19  <Ammler> and don't forget to process the file itself ;-)
21:08:49  <Ammler> FOO :Hallo
21:09:00  <Ammler> BAR  :_FOO Welt
21:11:41  <Ammler> frosch123: the dot file itself is suprisingly small
21:12:54  <frosch123> well, one line for every node and every edge
21:16:40  <Ammler> does andy like to illustrate the firs cargo table that way?
21:16:51  <frosch123> i am quite surprised that the resulting image is actually readable :)
21:16:53  <Ammler> shall I search for dot package on suse?
21:17:05  <frosch123> Ammler: it's called "graphviz"
21:17:55  <Ammler> my KDE already told me and it isn't in the base repos
21:18:37  <Ammler> hmm, it is
21:18:40  <Ammler> stupid KDE
21:19:37  <Ammler> maybe that looked for KDE apps only
21:21:15  <Ammler> I guess, I broke my network with NDAS
21:37:16  <frosch123> hmm, what places on the wiki are suitable to link to the image :s
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21:39:13  <planetmaker> grf development...
21:39:39  <frosch123> i mean where in the newgrf specs :)
21:40:12  <planetmaker> the newgrf wiki?
21:40:19  <frosch123> yes
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21:41:14  <planetmaker> AdditionalReferences->VehicleRefit
21:41:21  <planetmaker> and then linked from the individual vehicles
21:41:22  <frosch123> linking it from 4 properties of 4 action0 pages, and 2 callbacks from the callback page does not sound right
21:41:30  <planetmaker> (yes, it doesn't yet exisit)
21:41:55  <planetmaker> actually it does sound right to me
21:42:00  <frosch123> hmm, 5 props actually
21:42:04  <frosch123> so 22 places
21:42:05  <planetmaker> a wiki is meant to have cross-references
21:42:09  <planetmaker> 22?
21:42:20  <planetmaker> hm...
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21:43:30  <planetmaker> but it does make sense
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22:02:32  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 140:a1553bef6e4d: - Fixed due to r151 (fanioz) @
22:02:33  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 141:285444c60660: - the Queue was initialized later (fanioz) @
22:02:33  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 142:c2fe739e5c49: Code change : (fanioz) @
22:02:33  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 143:fa5b13738964: Code change : (fanioz) @
22:02:33  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 144:cef6a98cc8bb: Code change : (fanioz) @
22:02:37  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 145:e3508966372f: Code change : (fanioz) @
22:02:39  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 146:953eda672038: Code change : (fanioz) @
22:02:42  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 147:1dcc26450d0e: Code change : (fanioz) @
22:02:45  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 148:2e78e7ca44eb: Code change: (fanioz) @
22:03:03  <planetmaker> Tereh...
22:03:39  <planetmaker> that's a chain of verbose commit messages
22:03:59  <Rubidium> if it'd strip newlines, then it'd be better
22:04:58  <planetmaker> yep
22:13:07  <Ammler> strip newlines?
22:13:24  <frosch123> turned out it were not that many links, most properties already linked to the train page for an explaination :)
22:34:26  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Revision 209:815571fa5f4e: Fix: add all file extensions to a proper regex (planetmaker) @
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