Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 4th October 2010:
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00:31:40  <Ammler> is there another domain in use for
00:31:51  <Ammler> was used first
00:31:54  <Brot6> Bundles Update: r20861 2010-10-04 32bpp-ez   (
01:09:57  <Ammler> also next I wonder is what hosts do you guys use for ssh
01:10:56  <Ammler> ((hg|dev|mz).)* or something else?
01:12:24  <Ammler> I don't want to use more than 2 ips for the whole openttdcoop
01:13:07  <Ammler> so one ip for hg ssh and the other for bundles ssh
05:12:44  <Rubidium> Ammler: no & secure (I guess that's what you wanted to know), well and another for the actual parent server
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09:14:34  <Ammler> Rubidium: no, mainly what domain you use to upload stuff to bundles
09:15:13  <Ammler> und to everyone, what domain is used to ssh-hg push
09:17:01  <Rubidium> are you talking about what is used for OpenTTD's server or what is used by me and by OpenTTD's server?
09:18:25  <Ammler> what does the CF use to upload bundles to our server
09:18:52  <Ammler> and what are you using to push
09:19:55  <Rubidium> ssh://<xyz>
09:20:28  <Rubidium> for bundle uploading
10:42:51  <Ammler> Rubidium: possible to change the bundles domain to ?
10:43:35  <Ammler> why the hell did I give you such a silly url
10:44:00  <Rubidium> I guess so, but please send me an email as I don't have access to the ssh key to change that
10:44:41  <Ammler> oh, you might also need to add the new host to known hosts then
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10:58:35  <Rubidium> then write that in the mail
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12:04:55  <fanioz> good day
12:08:29  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 0:482827b8b09d: Initial repository (fanioz) @
12:11:18  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 1:3924b08be790: Import version 090310 (fanioz) @
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13:10:31  <Brot6> Modern Station Set - Revision 6:7691d646c5da: +MTSS: Added name (Redstar2nd) @
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15:47:56  <Brot6> SMITS - Revision 6:e8c734dd0334: Change: switch off warnings (Froix) @
15:47:56  <Brot6> SMITS - Revision 7:3ca775067850: Change: Renamed a folder and added a few more source files. (Froix) @
15:47:57  <Brot6> SMITS - Revision 8:73b4f24fd47a: Add: track sprites for each climate. (Froix) @
15:53:14  <Froix> to anyone who knows the answer - action 9 should be able to skip action 14 right?
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16:11:42  <Ammler> Froix: why you need to skip it?
16:12:31  <Froix> for older versions of the game. i've been playing around with older openttd and ttdpatch
16:12:48  <Ammler> those ignore a14
16:13:18  <Froix> older ttdpatch doesn't :p
16:13:39  <Ammler> yes, but older ttdpatch will also break with action9
16:13:59  <Froix> ah
16:14:16  <Ammler> if you like to support older ttdp, you need to make a version without a14, skipping doesn't help
16:15:02  <Froix> that completely answers my question.
16:15:20  <Froix> opengfx trees actually works with openttd 0.3.5 :)
16:15:28  <Ammler> hehe
16:15:47  <Ammler> thought newgrf support was started with 0.4.5
16:15:56  <Froix> i just can't find out how to use parameters there haha
16:16:18  <Ammler> in the cfg
16:16:24  <Ammler> like in ttdp
16:17:00  <Froix> i tried it that way. i must have entered it wrong
16:18:32  <Ammler> well, maybe it wasn't possible back that
16:18:43  <Ammler> I started with 0.4.8
16:20:48  <Brot6> smts: update from r5 to r8 done -
16:20:51  <Froix> I'm an openttd newbie. I've been content with just ttd til now.
16:20:58  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r615), 32bpp-extra (r39), ai-admiralai (r68), airportsplus (r63), basecosts (r22), belarusiantowns (r7), comic-houses (r71), firs (r1431), fish (r394), frenchtowns (r4), grfcodec (r772), heqs (r380), indonesiantowns (r33), metrotrackset (r56), newgrf_makefile (r219), nforenum (r506), nml (ERROR r818), nutracks (r117), ogfx-trains (r32), ogfx-trees (ERROR r35), ogfxplus (r42),
16:20:58  <Brot6> opengfx (r550), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), snowlinemod (r45), swedishrails (r182), swisstowns (r20), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r25), ttrs (r23), worldairlinersset (r664)
16:24:42  <Froix> no error log?
16:26:37  <Froix> oh wait if i found the error log.
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18:11:11  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: update from r20893 to r20894 done -
18:22:19  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r20893 to r20894 done -
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18:27:30  <planetmaker> moin
18:33:00  <Brot6> serverpatches: update from hee1a06aa to h660fd827 done (2 errors) -
18:36:32  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 819:872181b195b1: Doc: Properties of default houses (planetmaker) @
18:39:42  <andythenorth_> hi hi
18:40:31  <Ammler> Hello andythenorth, you scared some :-)
18:40:36  <andythenorth_> ?
18:40:50  <Ammler> with your annoucement to make a break
18:40:57  <andythenorth_> yeah
18:41:00  <andythenorth_> I won't leave
18:41:05  <andythenorth_> just need a break
18:41:08  <andythenorth_> the fun is gone
18:41:28  <Ammler> yeah, shouldn't bekome work
18:42:07  <andythenorth_> exactly
18:42:56  <planetmaker> hey andythenorth_  :-)
18:43:25  <planetmaker> yeah... For that reason it's good to have a few projects going :-)
18:43:45  <planetmaker> you've been working nearly exclusively on FIRS...
18:43:54  <planetmaker> taking a break will have the fun return :-)
18:44:26  <andythenorth_> industry set isn't like vehicle set
18:44:41  <andythenorth_> to make it useful, *lots* of stuff has to be finished for a release
18:45:22  <andythenorth_> I reckon it's 50% done though
18:46:11  <andythenorth_> planetmaker:
18:46:13  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development (at
18:48:15  <planetmaker> hm
18:48:21  <planetmaker> much input :-)
18:48:28  <andythenorth_> feedback is useful :)
18:48:40  <planetmaker> ask 10 people, get 12 opinions ;-)
18:48:57  <planetmaker> but of course it's useful
18:49:08  <planetmaker> he played it. he tested it, it seems. That#s good
18:51:08  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 33:8679aba26e71: Add: Support for wood prodcuts for flatbed wagon (planetmaker) @
18:51:08  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 34:cb4fdba114d4: Feature: Two random liveries for the coal wagon in te... (planetmaker) @
18:51:08  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 35:522e193bc353: Fix: Clay was twice in the CTT (planetmaker) @
18:51:12  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 36:90e756bf1af3: Change: Re-order all cargo-ID entries in the wagon sw... (planetmaker) @
18:51:16  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 37:835bccf5cc9c: Add: Lifestock support to piece goods wagon (planetmaker) @
18:51:20  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 38:8cc0f15f5387: Add #1528: Bulk wagon for monorail tracks (planetmaker) @
18:51:24  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 39:06aaedfe63cb: Add #1528: Bulk wagon for maglev tracks (planetmaker) @
18:52:05  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: some times I like to make a big jump in a project
18:52:15  <planetmaker> understandably :-)
18:52:23  <andythenorth_> in FIRS case, the big jump I'm thinking of is "who cares about before 1840"?
18:52:30  <andythenorth_> I know Dan MacK does :P
18:52:34  <planetmaker> :-)
18:52:35  <andythenorth_> but I'm not sure I do
18:52:40  <planetmaker> Then don't
18:52:43  <Ammler> what is before 1840?
18:52:46  <andythenorth_> horses
18:52:51  <andythenorth_> FISH canal boats (when done)
18:53:07  <andythenorth_> HEQS horse-drawn trams
18:53:08  <planetmaker> save that for a later FIRS then
18:53:18  <andythenorth_> nah, I'd rather ditch it
18:53:22  <planetmaker> extending it in time is a thing easily done
18:53:28  <andythenorth_> the issue is that it just complicates design
18:53:50  <Ammler> there are other things more missing in that time, maybe with the 32bpp wild west theme :-)
18:53:51  <planetmaker> indeed
18:54:02  <andythenorth_> it's not a request for a pony, it's a request for a unicorn:
18:54:10  <planetmaker> :-D
18:54:14  <andythenorth_> i.e. (1) no industry closure because it disrupts chains
18:54:30  <andythenorth_> (2) early industries not too good otherwise why change from them
18:54:51  <andythenorth_> (3) early industries have to be quite good because available transportation is crap
18:55:02  <andythenorth_> ^ unicorn
18:55:27  <andythenorth_> I think if I stop trying to solve that I'll be happier :)
18:55:34  <planetmaker> wasn't the production cap and/or efficiency what was discussed (agreed?)?
18:55:35  <Rubidium> oh... the other white meat! :)
18:55:45  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: it's being done by efficiency
18:55:51  <andythenorth_> coxx is right about forge though
18:55:55  <andythenorth_> which means mb is also right :)
18:56:02  <andythenorth_> it shortcuts chains
18:56:12  <andythenorth_> but if horses are only transport...who wants longer chains :P
18:57:00  <planetmaker> well... then remove the forge :-) Or have it a dead-end industry
18:57:11  <planetmaker> or at least making it NOT supply its primaries
18:57:36  <planetmaker> But... you could indeed first start to finish FIRS for years > ~1870
18:57:47  <planetmaker> and worry about fixing it for early years later
18:58:30  <planetmaker> Doing a good design for a certain (e.g. modern) time period first, finishing that, is not a bad approach, I think
18:58:41  <andythenorth_> technical debt :P
18:59:01  <planetmaker> When that is really running satisfactorily, it *should* somewhat be easy to add additional earlier industries which don't break things.
18:59:15  <planetmaker> yeah... possibly
19:00:08  <andythenorth_> :)
19:00:29  <andythenorth_> the fibre crops cargo seems to work well
19:00:49  <planetmaker> I mean... one *could* keep the current state before year XXX - and just focus on getting things right after that year
19:00:57  <planetmaker> That wouldn't break anything technically
19:01:10  <andythenorth_> nah....but gameplay wise....
19:01:18  <planetmaker> Maybe even making sure that it doesn't by disallowing new such industries later
19:01:29  <planetmaker> yes, gameplay wise :-)
19:01:52  <planetmaker> FIRS then would not be an industry set (yet) suitable for _very_ early years
19:02:03  <planetmaker> but which is? Oil refineries in 1840?
19:02:05  <planetmaker> Hm...
19:02:09  <andythenorth_> it would also leave lots of industries on the map from the early years
19:02:18  <andythenorth_> this is probably limited to forge
19:02:25  <andythenorth_> other industries all seem ok
19:02:37  <planetmaker> yes, the construction of such industries... could be forbidden :-)
19:10:19  <andythenorth_> can coop test alberth's industry patch?
19:10:46  <planetmaker> possibly... which industry patch?
19:11:10  <andythenorth_> industry creation
19:11:36  <planetmaker> hm... I dimly recall. Link?
19:11:40  <andythenorth_>
19:11:41  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - [patch] New economy (formerly: industry creation patch) (at
19:11:48  <andythenorth_> works for me
19:12:00  <andythenorth_> he's only had 10 downloads of the patch, and no real feedback :(
19:12:53  <planetmaker> there's 11 now ;-)
19:14:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: let me guess... that patch makes most sense with FIRS, right?
19:14:58  <andythenorth_> yup
19:15:03  <andythenorth_> due to introduction dates :)
19:15:23  <andythenorth_> should work well for balancing other sets too
19:15:25  <planetmaker> 0.4?
19:15:35  <andythenorth_> I'm trying it with nightly
19:15:51  <andythenorth_> nightly is 95% representative of 0.5
19:16:01  <andythenorth_> maybe I should finish 0.5....
19:17:02  <planetmaker> well. I'd only like to use NewGRF which people can obtain from bananas
19:17:27  <planetmaker> or it'd be another step making it more difficult to play on such server: different openttd + different newgrf
19:17:57  <andythenorth_> finish 0.5 then?
19:18:03  <andythenorth_> i.e. I should :)
19:24:06  <andythenorth_> so 'ethanol plant' or 'biofuel plant' ?
19:24:06  <planetmaker> :-)
19:24:24  <planetmaker> the latter sound much more catchy ;-)
19:24:32  <planetmaker> but... ethanol is more versatile
19:24:44  <andythenorth_> the brewery already produces it :P
19:24:52  <andythenorth_> depends if biofuel plant also produces chemicals
19:27:33  <andythenorth_> maybe we should add a new cargo: rapeseed / canola :P
19:27:59  <Rubidium> sees the not changing cargo types is going well
19:28:33  <Rubidium> and my grammer's failing
19:28:47  <Rubidium> and so is my spellling
19:29:46  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: there's oil seeds already ;-)
19:29:54  <planetmaker> You learn to appreciate ECS? ;-)
19:31:18  <andythenorth_> to some extent yes :)
19:31:34  <andythenorth_> although I think the cargos in it are determined by some EU SIC table, not gameplay
19:33:57  <andythenorth_> "Bio-chemical plant"?
19:34:04  <andythenorth_> "Bio-chemical refinery"?
19:34:30  <planetmaker> oh... that has other implications. It doesn't fit
19:34:42  <planetmaker> the output would be pharamaceutical products
19:35:28  <andythenorth_>
19:36:17  <andythenorth_> "Biorefinery" will do :)
19:36:17  <andythenorth_>
19:36:18  <Webster> Title: NREL: Biomass Research - What Is a Biorefinery? (at
19:37:55  <planetmaker> ok :-)
19:38:09  <andythenorth_> win I reckon
19:38:54  <planetmaker> ^
19:47:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: it seems to me that the patch might have some problems... since the last 4 commits. Not sure though
19:48:04  <andythenorth_> :|
19:48:25  <andythenorth_> maybe not
19:48:34  <planetmaker> Dunno :-)
19:48:40  <andythenorth_> think frosch is working on setting primary production rates
19:48:48  <planetmaker> yeah
19:48:50  <planetmaker> like that
19:52:40  <frosch123> good guess :p
19:53:25  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
19:59:32  * andythenorth_ wonders if default tiles can be redefined twice :P
19:59:38  <andythenorth_> I guess not
20:00:45  <planetmaker> they can.
20:00:48  <planetmaker> But 2nd one wins
20:03:42  <andythenorth_> :P
20:24:55  * andythenorth_ spots a problem with Biorefinery
20:25:07  <andythenorth_> both input cargos (sugar, grain) originate at arable farm :o
20:25:10  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: ^
20:25:24  <planetmaker> yes, so?
20:25:35  <planetmaker> you mean... if it is not present, it's useless?
20:25:37  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1432:252832954c26: Add: pnfo file for Biorefinery (andythenorth) @
20:25:37  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1433:6b191baa1f36: Change: add Biorefinery to firs.pnfo (andythenorth) @
20:25:37  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1434:72e8368244b0: Change: some texts to support Biorefi... (andythenorth) @
20:25:39  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1435:3ef09404a410: Change: some texts for Biorefinery (andythenorth) @
20:25:43  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1436:ccca0414a860: Change: remove redundant Oil Refinery... (andythenorth) @
20:25:47  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1437:2dad8cabbdb2: Change: further texts for Biorefinery (andythenorth) @
20:25:51  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1438:83cc5ca3855f: Change: set multiple properties for B... (andythenorth) @
20:25:55  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1439:ea4ca9dbbf4a: Change: map colour for Biorefinery (andythenorth) @
20:25:59  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1440:47a3ff69001f: Change: intro date for Biorefinery (andythenorth) @
20:26:03  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1441:f68d4acc2f2a: Change: swap graphics fo Biorefinery (andythenorth) @
20:26:55  * frosch123 likes the default farm with both grain and livestock to factory
20:27:12  <frosch123> mixed trains are more interesting
20:27:32  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
20:27:44  <frosch123> esp. if the industry instances have different ratios of the output cargos
20:27:45  <planetmaker> different people. different play style, I guess
20:28:06  <planetmaker> yeah, that makes it interesting with default industries
20:28:20  <andythenorth_> ach
20:28:22  <frosch123> though only with smooth economy :p
20:28:46  <andythenorth_> I already changed things a few times so two cargos -> one source -> same destination :)
20:28:56  <andythenorth_> now I've just recreated same issue :)
20:29:48  <andythenorth_> oops
20:30:01  <andythenorth_> two cargos -> one source -> *not* same destination :D
20:47:55  <planetmaker> good night
20:48:51  <andythenorth_> good nigh
20:48:52  <andythenorth_> t
21:14:38  <Ammler> hehe, we have a vm with 16 cpus
21:23:01  <Ammler> Debian doesn't like defaults, they changed almost every setting on sshd
21:23:29  <Ammler> and now I need to find the key to disable password login :-)
21:23:51  <Rubidium> man page?
21:24:41  <Rubidium> and what makes you say Debian doesn't like defaults? Maybe your previous OS changed the defaults
21:24:54  <Ammler> no
21:25:13  <Ammler> suse has almost nothing set
21:25:18  <Ammler> debian almost everything :-)
21:25:43  <Ammler> but it is fine, found PasswordAuthentication
21:26:04  <Rubidium> ah, "stability in configuration" vs "oh well, lets trust the packager/developer doesn't change the default for some reason"
21:26:18  <Ammler> :-)
21:26:40  <Rubidium> for what it's worth, the BSD manpage of sshd_config says PasswordAuthentication's default is yes
21:27:12  <Ammler> yes, and debian sets it to yes too
21:27:15  <Ammler> so quite stupid
21:27:42  <Ammler> user have no idea, if it is yes from upstream of from distro
21:28:06  <Rubidium> Ammler: and now ssh changes the default to no because it's safer... and you upgrade sshd... woopsie, you can't login anymore
21:28:22  <Rubidium> now *that* would be stupid and extremely annoying
21:28:32  <Ammler> indeed
21:28:43  <Rubidium> also not having to look through the manpage to figure out what the current setting is is IMO more useful
21:29:30  <Rubidium> although I'm not saying that everything the Debian packagers do is right
21:29:53  <Ammler> well, I should also say "stupid" might be the wrong word :-P
21:30:05  <Rubidium> you meant redundant?
21:30:18  <Rubidium> well, then 99% of OpenTTD's config file is redundant as well
21:30:47  <Ammler> hmm, that is written by the tool, not by distro
21:31:11  <Ammler> or does debian predefine the openttd.cfg?
21:32:07  <Rubidium> it doesn't, but then openttd.cfg is a per-use setting
21:32:37  <Ammler> planetmaker: I will have green vacation the next 3 weeks
21:33:09  <Ammler> so I will migrate the server day by day, I won't migrate the whole server to one vps
21:33:49  <Ammler> I will create tickets for the migration process, so you see, how it proceeds
21:33:59  <Ammler> will be quite close to the shutdown of s4y :-)
21:37:04  <Rubidium> green vacation? You mean you're only going to eat stuff from your garden and power everything by solar, wind and biofuel (from your foodwaste)?
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21:51:34  <Ammler> Rubidium: Military repeating class
21:52:29  <Ammler>
21:52:55  <Ammler> planetmaker: please add, if I have forgotten something
21:53:23  <Ammler> the green dot is the shutdown of our current server :-)
21:54:50  <Ammler> what I don't like is that I can't easy split redmine from repos
21:56:14  <Ammler> I am also not sure, if it is better to have a own mysql server
21:56:54  <Ammler> or if I shall switch postgre
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23:48:42  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 2:7ac2ceca5e57: Import version 090312 (fanioz) @
23:48:42  <Brot6> AI-Trans - Revision 3:c9f38ca3aee5: Import version 090318 (fanioz) @
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