Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 11th December 2010:
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00:00:16  <Ammler> time to go
00:12:37  <planetmaker> good night
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05:33:24  <Brot6> Bundles Update: g372143bc 2010-12-11 cargodist   (
06:59:50  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 569:b993bf495f61: Codechange: Add a few more blank lines in order to make the ... (planetmaker) @
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08:42:42  <dih> re-licensing a project with multiple devs is complicated anyway
08:44:04  <dih> for my part i am looking for some possibility to not be limited 5 years time
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08:59:03  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2010: New Taurus graphics (Voyager1) @
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09:42:21  <andythenorth> mornings
09:42:39  <Terkhen> good morning andythenorth
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09:43:21  <andythenorth> quak
09:43:35  <frosch123> morning :)
09:43:58  <planetmaker> moin folks :-)
09:44:40  <planetmaker> andythenorth: <-- I support your lazyness ;-)
09:45:17  <andythenorth> yay
09:45:26  <andythenorth> what, I should now lurk in coop games?
09:45:51  <planetmaker> you're welcome, but you need do nothing :-)
09:46:15  <andythenorth> oh I misread :o
09:46:23  <andythenorth> I thought that was 1.0.5
09:46:27  <andythenorth> :)
09:46:38  <planetmaker> nah, not 1.0.5
09:46:51  <frosch123> euh, what did i miss :o
09:46:54  <andythenorth> well, it's nice anyway
09:47:08  <planetmaker> I don't think you missed anything, frosch123 ;-)
09:47:10  <frosch123> planetmaker: what's your plan for the wiki?
09:47:35  <planetmaker> You mean my edits today on the openttd wiki?
09:47:47  <frosch123> yes
09:47:57  <planetmaker> well... the history and the diffs of the tikiwiki are... sub-optimal
09:48:06  <planetmaker> And it's another account also.
09:48:29  <planetmaker> So I thought I try how easy or not it'd be to get the newgrf wiki into the openttd wiki
09:48:42  <frosch123> so, it's a test?
09:48:49  <planetmaker> In a way, yes
09:49:01  <frosch123> ok, because duplicate specification is the worst of all :)
09:49:02  <planetmaker> What would your stand on such a move be in principle
09:49:10  <planetmaker> No, it's nothing official
09:49:11  <planetmaker> yet
09:49:22  <planetmaker> It definitely needs discussion.
09:49:41  <planetmaker> But not worth to discuss things when the other options are a pain, too
09:50:11  <frosch123> anyway, i would prefer a separate wiki instead of the ottd manual
09:50:11  <planetmaker> It's not up to me to make such decision anyway.
09:52:05  <planetmaker> The argument for keeping it separate certainly is that chances that noobs edit it, are much much smaller
09:52:34  <planetmaker> The argument for adding it to the development section of the existing wiki is that no-one edits it there anyway, too ;-)
09:52:57  <planetmaker> but information would be easier found for new people
09:53:20  <planetmaker> things would be a bit better integrated
09:54:04  <frosch123> different topic, what do youi think, should one of us volunteer for the 120 page printed ottd manual? :o
09:54:04  <planetmaker> probably what I would prefer is a section of the openttd wiki which is only editable by somehow registered newgrf authors
09:54:12  <frosch123> *for test-reading
09:54:30  <planetmaker> I guess I did that already as I mailed with that person from the beginning
09:54:38  <frosch123> ok :)
09:54:41  <planetmaker> months before that posting at tt-ms
09:54:50  <planetmaker> :-)
09:55:19  <planetmaker> I think he mailed initially alberth - because of his so-German-sounding name ;-)
09:55:32  <frosch123> yup, i know that :)
09:56:24  <frosch123> euh, though the table of contents puts "newgrf configuration" into the stuff of ingame- settings :s
09:56:24  <Rubidium> *if* you're going to make a new NewGRF specs wiki I think it's better to split it off OpenTTD's wiki as well, i.e. a new wiki
09:57:37  <Rubidium> we could even consider redirecting giving it / / as DNS names
09:57:53  <planetmaker> hm, ok
09:57:56  <Rubidium> then nobody would (really) be the wiser
09:58:06  <Rubidium> after all, it happens with the ttdpatch nightlies as well
09:59:22  <andythenorth> what's the need for moving control of newgrf wiki?
09:59:28  <andythenorth> reduced point of failure?
09:59:30  <andythenorth> or politics?
09:59:39  <planetmaker> I'm not yet really that into media wiki setup. From the pm wiki I know the concept of wiki farms
10:00:19  <planetmaker> (that pm has nothing to do with my name ;-) )
10:00:21  <Webster> Title: PmWiki | PmWiki / PmWiki (at
10:01:02  <planetmaker> andythenorth: the history and alike of the tikiwiki are quite bad.
10:01:10  <frosch123> andythenorth: just that tikiwki is a pain and lacks a lot of featueres of tikiwki
10:01:12  <planetmaker> try to look what one person changed
10:01:20  <andythenorth> ok
10:01:22  <planetmaker> just as one example ;-)
10:01:51  <frosch123> andythenorth: e.g. try to add a ottd 0.5, 0.6, 0.7, 1.0, 1.1, ttdp 2.0, 2.5, 2.6 logo after every property/varaible/callback/whatever :p
10:02:16  <planetmaker> or adding a new feature at the main page
10:04:01  <planetmaker> hm, I guess I could try to setup a test wiki in a VM on the devzone
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11:45:45  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2011 (New): Change forge -> Ironworks + Blacksmith (andythenorth) @
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11:52:50  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2010: New Taurus graphics (Voyager1) @
12:02:26  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2010: New Taurus graphics (Ammler) @
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17:08:40  <Brot6> grfcodec: update from r811 to r815 done -
17:09:57  <Brot6> nml: update from r1089 to r1091 done -
17:13:40  <Ammler> planetmaker: why not using the devzone wiki instead?
17:13:48  <Ammler> e.g. project grftools
17:16:23  <Ammler> also some parts should be merged with nml spec
17:18:08  <Brot6> firs: update from r1582 to r1584 done (1 errors) -
17:19:12  <Brot6> opengfx: update from r568 to r569 done -
17:19:18  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r686), 32bpp-extra (r39), ai-admiralai (r75), airportsplus (r70), basecosts (r22), belarusiantowns (r8), bros (r40), comic-houses (r71), fish (r423), frenchtowns (r6), grfcodec (r815), heqs (r553), indonesiantowns (r39), manindu (r6), metrotrackset (r56), newgrf_makefile (r238), nml (r1091), nutracks (r120), ogfx-rv (r78), ogfx-trains (r199), ogfx-trees (r41), openmsx (r97),
17:19:18  <Brot6> opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r45), swedishrails (r193), swisstowns (r22), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r26), ttrs (r23), worldairlinersset (r669)
17:20:48  <Ammler> andythenorth: the error in firs looks fixeable, doesn't?
17:21:32  <Brot6> comic-houses: rebuild of r71 done (2 errors) (Diffsize: 14) (DiffDiffsize: 7) -
17:22:05  <andythenorth> Ammler: it's just a boring 'unused set' error
17:22:41  <andythenorth> yes I could fix it
17:23:16  <Ammler> maybe I should also create bug ticket of such errors
17:23:46  <Ammler> what are those Escapes list for in the nfo header?
17:24:38  <Ammler> are they needed by grfcodec?
17:25:06  <Brot6> smts: rebuild of r19 done (Diffsize: 8) (DiffDiffsize: 12) -
17:25:48  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2010: New Taurus graphics (Voyager1) @
17:26:06  <Brot6> transrapidtrackset: rebuild of r15 done (Diffsize: 12) (DiffDiffsize: 7) -
17:26:33  <Ammler> hmm, smts has also a silly diff
17:26:39  <Brot6> ttrs: rebuild of r23 done (7 errors) (Diffsize: 1324) (DiffDiffsize: 1328) -
17:27:22  <Ammler> frosch123: any idea, why grf2html has new png output?
17:27:24  <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: 2cctrainset (8 errors), 32bpp-extra (Diffsize: 1), airportsplus (Diffsize: 6), basecosts, belarusiantowns, bros, fish (4 errors), frenchtowns, heqs, indonesiantowns (1 errors), manindu, metrotrackset (Diffsize: 1), nutracks (2 errors), ogfx-rv (1 errors), ogfx-trains, ogfx-trees, snowlinemod, swedishrails, swisstowns, worldairlinersset
17:31:30  <frosch123> Ammler: maybe palette?
17:31:35  <planetmaker> [18:13]	<Ammler>	planetmaker: why not using the devzone wiki instead? <-- it is also an ugly wiki
17:31:56  <planetmaker> And the NewGRF specs are probably best kept as a separate entity
17:32:26  <Ammler> ugly in which way? :-o
17:33:54  <planetmaker> I don't like its syntax
17:34:34  <planetmaker> and it's in comparison also quite limited. Moving from TikiWiki to the Redmine wiki IMHO doesn't warrant the effort
17:35:05  <frosch123> can it join cells in tables?
17:35:59  <planetmaker> Dunno... I didn't find tables directly straight forward there ;-)
17:36:31  <planetmaker> And importing an existing wiki into a new wiki is quite a bit easier than importing it into the redmine wiki ;-)
17:37:10  <Ammler> oh, so you like to use tikiwiki or how that is called?
17:37:28  <planetmaker> No, that I like even less
17:37:45  * Rubidium wonders whether that's tikwiki's fault, or tikiwiki's version's fault
17:37:59  <planetmaker> It's uglyness is the main reason. E.g. you cannot see any diff there between versions
17:38:16  <Ammler> hmm, you can
17:38:29  <Rubidium> 1.9.2, they're at 6 something now
17:39:32  <Ammler>
17:40:04  <Ammler> with the history view
17:40:19  <planetmaker>
17:40:27  <Rubidium> Ammler: who did version 30?
17:40:31  <planetmaker> hm...
17:40:43  <Rubidium> or version 28?
17:41:15  <Ammler> you?
17:41:24  <Rubidium> no, I didn't
17:41:36  <Rubidium> just take a look at the dates of the versions
17:41:44  <Rubidium> 31-26
17:41:46  <Ammler> Rubidium - Fri 30 of Jul, 2010 [13:25]
17:42:14  <Rubidium> 31: 09-12
17:42:17  <Rubidium> 30: 30-07
17:42:21  <Rubidium> 29: 09-12
17:42:24  <Rubidium> 28: 30-07
17:42:30  <Rubidium> 27: 08-12
17:42:34  <Rubidium> 26: 30-07
17:42:36  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1585:559711e0b950: Fix: removed unused ground sprite in ... (andythenorth) @
17:42:38  <Rubidium> all in 2010
17:42:45  <andythenorth> Ammler: ^^
17:42:48  <Rubidium> kinda odd ordering of versions, ain't it?
17:43:02  <Rubidium> and the same date + user + comment for three changes?
17:43:14  <Ammler> indeed :-)
17:43:21  <frosch123> Rubidium: those were reverts by an admin
17:43:29  <planetmaker> we know that
17:43:33  <Ammler> frosch123: and why as "Rubi"?
17:43:46  <Rubidium> Ammler: also, what's the diff between version 20 and 19?
17:43:53  <frosch123> anyway, i looked up the join-multiple-cells issue a year ago or so, and back then even a up-to-date tiki was not able to di it
17:44:19  <frosch123> Ammler: because it was reverted to that last version of rb
17:44:53  <frosch123> Ammler: btw. seems like the bounding-box previews have different palettes
17:44:54  <Ammler> ah, that makes sense
17:45:10  <frosch123> they only use 3 palette entries, and it looks like the other ones are filled randomly
17:45:32  <Ammler> well, not sense in kind it is good, just why Rubi is abused :-)
17:45:49  <frosch123> not sure whether i can force the freepascal library to zero the palette
17:51:19  <Ammler> frosch123: so the problem is caused by a libpng update in the mingw repo?
17:51:33  <frosch123> no, looks like it is my fault
17:52:17  <frosch123> the preview sprites have 256 palette colours, but the previews need only 3 colours. the other entries are left uninitalised
17:52:37  <frosch123> so the output is only semantically the same, but not binary :)
17:54:06  <Ammler> andythenorth: you don't do that for me :-P
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17:56:37  <andythenorth> Ammler: I do it for the good of all :)
17:56:43  <andythenorth> but it saves you opening a ticket
17:56:44  <Ammler> yes :-)
17:57:09  <Ammler> well, I was thinking about the compile script doing it...
17:57:25  <Ammler> like if the build fails
17:57:26  <planetmaker> Ammler: about warnings?
17:57:37  <Ammler> just with normal prio
17:58:03  <planetmaker> critical failures are good. Just a warning... Dunno
17:58:42  <Ammler> hmm, if you don't want the error you can silence it in the nfo
17:58:53  <planetmaker> Not always
17:59:20  <Ammler> but ignoring a error is bad, imo
17:59:22  <planetmaker> Like I can't compile OpenTTD without 6 warnings
17:59:44  <planetmaker> they're pointless compiler insufficiencies, but that's it
17:59:47  <Ammler> try make 2>/dev/null
18:00:51  <andythenorth> not all newgrf errors are useful
18:00:53  <Ammler> yeah, openttd produces a lot compile warnings
18:01:22  <Rubidium> show me one that isn't a broken compiler
18:01:30  <andythenorth> to 'fix' the error in FIRS just now I deleted harmless unfinished code which I'll have to re-write at some point
18:01:42  <andythenorth> or I could add suppression, but that's more cruft...
18:02:20  <frosch123> or comment it out :p
18:03:02  <Terkhen> #if 0
18:03:06  <Ammler>
18:03:11  <Ammler> all broken gcc?
18:03:33  <Rubidium> yes
18:03:52  <Rubidium> all the same error
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18:04:16  <Ammler> andythenorth: in that case, I wouldn't have fixed it
18:04:18  <Rubidium> also documented in OpenTTD's readme.txt
18:04:28  <Ammler> I would add a comment about
18:04:28  <andythenorth> Ammler: no errors is not a bad thing
18:04:36  <andythenorth> makes errors stand out when they are introduced :P
18:04:36  <Ammler> or disable the error in that region
18:04:54  <planetmaker> nah, it's cleaner to take it out
18:05:01  <Ammler> andythenorth: ^ that was my initial thought about
18:05:03  <planetmaker> The VCS will remember it when it's needed
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18:05:18  <andythenorth> it's only a real sprite in this case
18:05:28  <Rubidium> Ammler: are you talking to me that we should add a comment about that warning?
18:05:38  <Ammler> no, to andy
18:06:06  <Rubidium> good, otherwise I would've slapped you with blob.hpp:318
18:06:10  <Ammler> I just wondered about the many compile errors as I committed openttd to the obs repo
18:06:19  <Rubidium> /* In case GCC warns about the following, see GCC's PR38509 why it is bogus. */
18:07:43  <Ammler> I setup a whole obs on a vm yesterday, but that thing uses 2GB ram alone
18:07:54  <Ammler> so I am not sure to really use it
18:09:35  <Rubidium> that's quite a lot... but do you really need to allocated 2GB to that VM?
18:09:56  <Rubidium> most of OpenTTD's compilers run happily with 384, IIRC Windows need a whopping 512
18:10:33  <frosch123> Rubidium: you can celebrate it's second birthday tomorrow
18:13:36  <Ammler> it complained about ram as I gave it 512/512 mem/swap
18:13:47  <Ammler> so I rised it to 1024/1024
18:14:24  <Ammler> they use lighty as webserver
18:16:12  <Rubidium> Ammler: and actually, that warning is only shown when assertions are disabled :)
18:17:00  <planetmaker> the obs does release builds, Ammler ? ^
18:17:03  <Ammler> he, possible that is why I don't have so many on local trunk builds
18:17:21  <planetmaker> hm?
18:17:27  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 424:b23f93969a24: Change: add ferry graphics to Utility Vessel (Dan MacK) (andythenorth) @
18:17:27  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 425:958201c62041: Add: png version of utility vessel (andythenorth) @
18:17:27  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 426:de1cdd70d8e0: Feature: Utility Vessel has graphics for Passenger refit (Dan M... (andythenorth) @
18:18:28  <Ammler> planetmaker: currently we use osc, a cli tool to build our packages, this loads the packages from
18:19:20  <Ammler> we could also run our own obs, so we would be independent from
18:20:43  <Ammler> and obs would also care about the whole building infrastructure...
18:23:15  <Ammler> hmm, hypervisor upgrade
18:23:54  <planetmaker> Ammler: can you set mime-type for obm on bundles to txt?
18:25:02  <Ammler> hmm, is obm wrapped with download.php?
18:25:30  <Ammler> looks more like a debug file
18:27:22  <planetmaker> obm is part of openmsx
18:27:38  <planetmaker> thus one cannot view the obm file in the browser
18:30:01  <Ammler> how are the other 2 called?
18:30:02  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 427:60c4fc61b9e9: Change: suppress smoke for larger Ferries (andythenorth) @
18:30:30  <Ammler> obg and obs, irght?
18:30:40  <planetmaker> obg and obs
18:31:21  <Ammler> ok, those should now open in the browser
18:31:29  <planetmaker> :-) Thanks you
18:32:41  <Ammler> what is the "cleanest" way to run a script (deamon) on the background?
18:32:45  <Ammler> currently I use screen
18:41:05  <planetmaker> you could use NOHUP signal
19:02:49  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: update from r21450 to r21469 done (4 errors) -
19:05:19  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r21450 to r21469 done -
19:05:51  <Brot6> serverpatches: compile of r21469 still failed (#1965) -
19:08:27  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 428:35c8c373e5d8: Change: update changelog ahead of 0.7.0 release (andythenorth) @
19:08:27  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 429:ab713e26c9b1: Added tag 0.7.0 for changeset 35c8c373e5d8 (andythenorth) @
19:09:30  <Brot6> fish: update from 0.6.2 to 0.7.0 done (4 errors) -
19:10:57  <andythenorth> it did build for me :)
19:11:13  <planetmaker> oh. fresh fish 'n ships ;-)
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19:17:47  * andythenorth refreshes bananas obsessively waiting for first download :P
19:24:18  <andythenorth> yay
19:24:25  <frosch123> 3?
19:24:43  <andythenorth> indeed
19:24:48  <andythenorth> 4 :P
19:24:52  <andythenorth> this is a pathetic game :D
19:25:05  <andythenorth> I should do something better
19:25:39  <andythenorth> planetmaker: what is HEQS stuck on? I didn't get my head around the problem cause :o
19:25:48  <andythenorth> anything I can do?
19:26:13  <planetmaker> it's stuck on the silly parameters not working like they should
19:27:10  <planetmaker> I don't quite know why
19:27:30  <andythenorth> ho
19:27:34  <andythenorth> ho well
19:27:50  <andythenorth> something we've misunderstood?
19:29:33  <planetmaker> <-- this is what it shows here currently
19:31:27  <planetmaker> which basically is: a) make sure the (user) parameters have a value
19:31:41  <planetmaker> b) read the value of the user parameters into our own internal parameters
19:32:21  <planetmaker> c) apply the default offset to those internal params
19:32:36  <planetmaker> d) write the param into the purchase costs
19:32:44  <planetmaker> e) write the other param into the running cost
19:33:19  <andythenorth> which should all be fine...
19:33:21  <planetmaker> and the very first line skips the whole stuff for the stages which need it
19:37:09  <planetmaker> what I'm most suspicious about is the very first line. But I *think* it's correct...
19:48:59  <Ammler> oh, I still miss an answer to what is the Escapes in the nfo header for?
19:50:12  <frosch123> it's the defaultheader
19:50:20  <frosch123> you can define your own escapes
19:50:36  <Ammler> needed for grfcodec?
19:50:55  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm stumped by what could be wrong wrt parameters
19:50:57  <frosch123> renum adds the default values, if there is no "escapes" yet
19:51:01  <Ammler> it is just a bit useless, imo
19:51:13  <andythenorth> only thing I can think to try is isolate bits of code to see what's working / not
19:51:19  <Ammler> nobody has those Escapes in the source
19:51:21  <frosch123> Ammler: renum also adds the other headerlines, if they are missing
19:51:36  * andythenorth afk
19:51:37  <frosch123> you think "do not modify, autogenerated by grfcodec" is useless?
19:51:39  <frosch123> well, yes :p
19:52:31  <Ammler> frosch123: I think, grfcodec could use the default if no Escapes are defined
19:52:39  <frosch123> it does
19:52:44  <Ammler> but renum should not write those to the nfo
19:52:54  <frosch123> sure, it should
19:53:00  <Ammler> what for?
19:53:05  <frosch123> so you can edit them
19:53:10  <Ammler> you just said, grfcodec can handle it without?
19:53:25  <frosch123> grfcodec can also handle wrong spritenumbers
19:53:29  <frosch123> still renum fixes them
19:53:29  <Ammler> frosch123: it is the processed nfo
19:53:34  <Lakie> It needs the first 3 commented lines, iirc
19:53:46  <Lakie> The escapes and such are optional
19:53:50  <Ammler> nobody edits a nfo then anymore
19:53:52  <frosch123> Ammler: what's your problem with those lines?
19:54:23  <Ammler> the non grf2html rebuild errors are because of those
19:54:50  <frosch123> oh, only about the compile diff? so, if we add a new warning we shall disable it by default? that is silly
19:55:08  <Ammler> no, you don't need to add those as they are completely useless
19:55:14  <frosch123> no, they are not
19:56:14  <Ammler> hmm, so it doesn't write there what grfcodec uses per default?
19:57:26  <Ammler> <-- no Escapes there
19:57:32  <Ammler> but it works
19:57:55  <Ammler> that should btw be pnfo, planetmaker ^
19:58:36  <planetmaker> not quite. It's not pre-processed
19:58:51  <planetmaker> it's just copied as the header of the future nfo file
20:00:52  <Ammler> planetmaker: seems not like, there are some useless Escapes lines added ;-)
20:03:05  <Ammler> also nfo is ignored by the repo, isn't?
20:04:38  <Ammler> frosch123: just confimed:
20:04:41  <Ammler> 65fde2877b1454a76ca1a3b07a457d79  ogfxe_extra.grf
20:04:42  <Ammler> 65fde2877b1454a76ca1a3b07a457d79  ogfxe_extra_no_esc.grf
20:05:02  <Ammler> both nfos give same grf, so those Escapes are really useless
20:06:42  <Ammler> (speaking about the header lines only)
20:08:13  <frosch123> then use a old renum, disable the regression or whatever
20:08:30  <Ammler> hmm, don't get it
20:08:30  <frosch123> but relying on renum's output to stay the same forever is bolluks
20:09:47  <Ammler> is it possible to disable it?
20:10:14  <frosch123> use info version 6, that disables all escapes
20:10:25  <Ammler> we do the rebuild as a kind of regression test for nforenum
20:10:26  <planetmaker> what's the issue with the escapes and the header?
20:10:42  <planetmaker> even if the escapes are not needed they don't hurt. Or what?
20:10:43  <Ammler> they are useless and cause false errors
20:10:56  <Ammler> check the errors on the rebuilds
20:11:18  <planetmaker> I see no errors due to the header
20:11:38  <Ammler> then tell me what is the difference other than nfo header?
20:13:03  <Ammler> those might make sense, if someone defines his own escapes
20:13:25  <planetmaker> I've no idea which actual failure you complain about. And I know none
20:14:22  <Ammler> tell me why the compiler complained about comic-houses
20:14:42  <planetmaker> because it was never updated and might not even have that file
20:15:21  <Ammler> check the diff :-)
20:15:26  <Ammler> (is that really that hard)
20:15:47  <Rubidium> Ammler: so you're against any type of improvements of NFOrenum that change the "output" format of the file?
20:16:03  <Ammler> Rubidium: what does that improve?
20:16:06  <Rubidium> because it makes the compiler complain that the intermediate file changed?
20:16:38  <Ammler> i just confirmed with ogfx extra, the grf is the same, so it doesn't have any impact
20:16:49  <Rubidium> IIRC this case it fixes a "misalignment" of the escapes
20:17:11  <planetmaker> Ammler: comic_houses is not a good argument. It's unmaintained currently
20:17:19  <Rubidium> Ammler: and yes, escapes for OpenGFX generally don't have much of an influence because you're basically using NONE of them there
20:17:23  <Ammler> the whole escapes are useless, not improvments of it
20:17:32  <Rubidium> doesn't mean that *most* other ones do use escapes
20:17:33  <planetmaker> Ammler: they once were required
20:17:36  <Ammler> (default escapes in the header)
20:18:41  <frosch123> they add compatiblity
20:18:56  <frosch123> you can also use newer default escapes with older grfcodec
20:18:59  <Rubidium> *also*, since OpenGFX does (occasionally) use escapes it *must* have those escapes in the header otherwise it'll become a mess when compiling with "too old" GRFCodecs
20:20:05  <Rubidium> or is missing nforenum a "failure" event?
20:30:40  <Lakie> I'm unsure it is also applies to OpenTTD (or it got changed), but if I use maketempscreenblock, do I need to do anything before I can call it again to create a new one?
20:31:54  <frosch123> what does "maketempscreenblock" do? :)
20:32:03  <frosch123> we have different function names
20:32:23  <frosch123> maybe setting the clipping-rectangle?
20:34:43  <Lakie> I think so
20:35:08  <frosch123> the active clipping rect is stored in some global variable
20:35:25  <frosch123> you have to save that, and restore it afterwards
20:35:30  <frosch123> (at least in ottd :)
20:35:55  <Lakie> Heh, ok
20:36:37  <Lakie> Sounjds like it got nicely renovated for OpenTTD. :)
20:43:36  <Ammler> hmm, you don't get me :'-( the escapes are not in the nfo from ogfx, those are added on building the grf, else of course, it wouldn't be useless and also wouldn't produce false error
20:45:02  <Brot6> Grf2Html - Revision 232: Fix: Zero unused palette entries in bounding box preview images. (frosch) @
20:48:54  <planetmaker> Ammler: Yes. But _earlier_ grfcodec versions needed that header
20:49:05  <planetmaker> or (nfo)renum
20:49:39  <planetmaker> I added that funky header file only as it didn't work without
20:49:51  <Ammler> well, I give up, I am not able to explain it understandable...
20:50:16  <Rubidium> Ammler: your problem is that NFORenum does add something that is not needed for the current GRFCodec
20:50:41  <Ammler> s/your/the/
20:50:42  <planetmaker> Rubidium: my makefiles explicitly supply those escapes
20:50:57  <planetmaker> independent of nforenum.
20:51:26  <planetmaker> as I had at one stage troubles without having such header.
20:51:27  <Ammler> maybe you guys aren't aware the grfcodec and nforenum are in the same package now
20:51:38  <planetmaker> yes?
20:52:03  <planetmaker> Ammler: show me: what. is. your. problem?
20:52:31  <Rubidium> Ammler: that doesn't mean that people use the same version of both
20:52:37  <planetmaker> it must definitely something which I can't reproduce here and which also doesn't show when I check my logs from the CF
20:52:38  <Ammler> hmm, indeed, it seems to be my problem only. So never mind.
20:52:45  <Rubidium> and that also doesn't mean that someone nforenums they nfo and then distributes that
20:53:13  <planetmaker> or we look at the same and you see something else than I do.
20:53:25  <planetmaker> I _really_ don't know what 'error' you keep complaining
20:53:27  <planetmaker> about
20:53:45  <Ammler> it is fine to have custom Escape in the header, it is just stupid to add default escapes with renum
20:54:17  <planetmaker> Ammler: also with an old nforenum?
20:55:13  <Ammler> planetmaker: the rebuild error of comic houses is just because of those escape lines, which are added from nforenum, not from the project itself
20:55:20  <Ammler> you really don't see that?
20:55:22  <frosch123> Ammler: let's say "specifying escapes is mandatory"
20:55:47  <Ammler> frosch123: it isn't, I proved that with ogfx extra
20:55:56  <planetmaker> Ammler: I don't look at its compile logs
20:55:58  <Ammler> both grfs are the same, how is that possible?
20:55:59  <frosch123> fine, shall i remove support for grfcodec defaults?
20:56:13  <frosch123> grfcodec supports the defaults _only_ for compatibliity
20:56:14  <planetmaker> or hardly
20:56:21  <Rubidium> where is that quote when you need it...
20:56:31  <Ammler> :-)
20:56:44  <Rubidium> "be strict with what you send and lenient with what you receive" (something like that)
20:56:57  <Ammler> I see it might be needed, if you build with pre 5.0
20:56:57  <planetmaker> Ammler: are you happy when I disable nightly compiles for comic houses?
20:57:11  <Ammler> planetmaker: please don't be silly
20:57:30  <Ammler> comic houses is just an example, it happens quite often
20:57:43  <planetmaker> well. The issue seems to be that the current comic houses have an old version of everything.
20:57:47  <Ammler> rebuild error just of useless escape lines in the header
20:57:54  <Rubidium> "be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from
20:57:56  <planetmaker> When they get updated the error would vanish
20:58:00  <Ammler> planetmaker: no
20:58:04  <Rubidium> others" [September 1981]
20:58:21  <Rubidium> (rfc793)
20:58:30  <planetmaker> he :-)
20:58:33  <planetmaker> good quote
20:58:54  <Rubidium> GRFCodec and NFORenum use that same robustness principle as TCP does
20:59:04  <Ammler> Rubidium: I hoped you can give me a example where it is useful to have those escapes headers generated on building
20:59:54  <planetmaker> Ammler: IMHO this is a clear case of "new compiler complains about old code". Obviously the CF doesn't complain about existing, maintained projects
21:00:07  <Ammler> planetmaker: no
21:00:09  <Rubidium> you have a NFO, which you run through NFORenum and then (together with some PCXes) distribute
21:00:15  <Ammler> new compiler doesn't complain about it
21:00:52  <Brot6> WebOTTD - Revision 75:f12d77d707a9: Codechange: merge the news section with index.php and remove ... (avdg) @
21:00:59  <Rubidium> then *even* people with older GRFCodecs, that did not know about those (new) default escapes you're using can still compile the nfo + pcx into a grf
21:01:00  <Ammler> it is the difference which failes, which is fine useally, just in this case, it is simply stupid
21:01:30  <Ammler> Rubidium: but then, they have that lines in the nfo
21:01:36  <Ammler> which is not the case here
21:01:46  <Ammler> that is the whole point, menno :-P
21:02:19  <Rubidium> Ammler: but... you're using escapes in that NewGRF
21:02:27  <planetmaker> we agree that it's stupid. yes. But this difference is that the output is different with an old tool chain from our new tool chain.
21:02:29  <Rubidium> which you do not declare
21:02:37  <planetmaker> I consider that not bothersome, but quite normal
21:02:43  <Ammler> Rubidium: yes
21:02:47  <Ammler> exactly
21:03:03  <Ammler> now you add defaults to the header, which might be wrong, how useful is that?
21:03:28  <planetmaker> Ammler: the defaults for the escapes changed
21:03:43  <planetmaker> Thus the output from July and from now differs
21:03:55  <Ammler> yes, and your nfo is based on the old
21:03:56  <planetmaker> thus the rebuild detects a difference
21:04:05  <Ammler> now you renum your nfo with newer renum
21:04:08  <planetmaker> yes. See. Old code, new tools. --> Complaints
21:04:23  <planetmaker> the logical thing would be to update the code. Comic houses
21:04:42  <Ammler> yes, and now tell me why it is useful to add those new wrong specs?
21:04:58  <planetmaker> if I compile OpenTTD 0.5.0 now the binary also looks different than the one compiled back then
21:05:02  <planetmaker> Nothing wrong with that
21:05:14  <Ammler> yes, then nforenum should complain about missing escapes definition, not just add defaults
21:05:34  <frosch123> Ammler: just update the regression
21:05:48  <Ammler> frosch123: just don't add wrong escapes lines
21:05:48  <frosch123> noai regression is also updated when we change something
21:05:58  <planetmaker> which means to update the nfo stored from comic_houses
21:06:01  <frosch123> Ammler: damn, they are mandatory, you have to add them
21:06:08  <Ammler> now after this chat, I can consider it as bug :-)
21:06:14  <Ammler> before it was just useless
21:06:21  <frosch123> shall we add a warning: your code does not supply a escapes line, we are not going to encode it
21:06:22  <Rubidium> robustness principle...
21:06:28  <Ammler> frosch123: but we don't
21:06:36  <Ammler> nforenum does add those
21:06:51  <Ammler> which is what I try to tell you since?
21:07:20  <frosch123> Ammler: i hope you will never complain if nml learns some optimising and the resulting grf changes
21:07:34  <Ammler> frosch123: you don't get it
21:07:40  <frosch123> no, you don't get it
21:07:43  <Ammler> :-D
21:08:10  <Rubidium> Ammler: you say NFORenum must not be adding *anything* that isn't in the original nfo?
21:08:14  <frosch123> the regression is for grfcodec/nforenum
21:08:18  <frosch123> not the other way around
21:08:39  <Ammler> Rubidium: no, did I?
21:08:57  <frosch123> yes, you did
21:09:17  <Ammler> I said, it should not add wrong escape definition
21:09:32  <Rubidium> they are *not* wrong
21:09:39  <Ammler> I only spoke about those escape lines in the header added by nforenum
21:10:09  <Ammler> why do you now spread that to the whole nfo? :-P
21:10:20  <frosch123> oh, well
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21:10:39  <Ammler> yes, good night from my side too
21:10:53  <Ammler> anyway :-)
21:12:18  <planetmaker> :-(
21:12:50  <planetmaker> my goodness
21:25:12  <planetmaker> 1 1/2 Stunden ... alle Leute sind frustriert. Und das nur, weil alter Code mit neuen Tools Warnungen produziert :-(
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22:39:25  <Brot6> #openttdcoop - Bug #1956: Bundles Folders Dates not updated (athanasios) @
22:42:37  <Brot6> #openttdcoop - Bug #1956: Bundles Folders Dates not updated (athanasios) @
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23:07:23  <V453000> andythenorth: lol :D heqs has a train ? :D
23:07:25  *** thgergo has quit IRC
23:07:48  <andythenorth> yes
23:08:07  <andythenorth> it's kind of small :)
23:08:29  <V453000> will there be more?
23:09:38  <andythenorth> there might be some wagons for it
23:09:41  <andythenorth> small ones
23:09:55  <V453000> I see
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23:39:16  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 570:cbac5b0faa4e: Feature #1959: Red-nose for Ploddyphut bus and sugar truck (... (planetmaker) @

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