Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 16th January 2011:
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01:30:59  <DJNekkid> <planetmaker> DJNekkid: then don't give the user page-long boolean choices
01:31:18  <DJNekkid> i wont give them _long_ choises
01:31:37  <DJNekkid> 3 different ones combined at max...
01:33:03  <DJNekkid> that would give (in my current 3-to-many-beers) 6 different ones
01:33:05  <DJNekkid> 1
01:33:06  <DJNekkid> 2
01:33:07  <DJNekkid> 3
01:33:13  <DJNekkid> 1-2
01:33:18  <DJNekkid> 2-3
01:33:20  <DJNekkid> 3-1
01:33:55  <DJNekkid> 1-3
01:34:07  <DJNekkid> thats ... ehn ,,, 7
01:34:36  <DJNekkid> no, 6 ... A=B     =     B=!
01:34:42  <DJNekkid> b=a
01:38:28  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2175: Parameter for train type availability (DJNekkid) @
01:39:39  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2175: Parameter for train type availability (DJNekkid) @
01:41:57  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2175: Parameter for train type availability (DJNekkid) @
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05:33:01  <Brot6> Bundles Update: g06951eb2 2011-01-16 cargodist   (
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08:19:13  <planetmaker> DJNekkid: then make each a separate boolean thing for the user. It's not a long list.
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11:23:09  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2175: Parameter for train type availability (Voyager1) @
11:44:47  <Brot6> Polish PKP Set - Revision 3:2681bf0a3125: Feature: Eaos now has multiple graphics for full wagons... (BarthVader) @
11:47:44  <V453000> does Eaos still have those like 59 tonne capacity in PKP set?
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15:45:27  <Brot6> Polish PKP Set - Revision 4:adbb63ae7f93: Feature: Uacs, Sdgmnss (BarthVader) @
15:55:27  <frosch123> imo the name of sanity.cpp is quite offensive
15:57:52  <Rubidium> why?
15:58:12  <Rubidium> it's the only thing that looks sane, ain't it?
16:07:09  <frosch123> <- trigger messages if there is no palette information
16:15:53  <Rubidium> I'd remove the "yet, "
16:16:07  <Rubidium> but besides that it looks dale-ish
16:23:35  <Rubidium> maybe docs/sanity.txt could get a small snippet showing how to add the palette
16:23:56  <Rubidium> besides that it looks okay to me
16:32:16  <frosch123> updated
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17:17:19  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r718), 32bpp-extra (r39), ai-admiralai (r75), ai-aroai (r10), ailib-common (r21), ailib-direction (r17), ailib-list (r32), ailib-string (r29), ailib-tile (r16), airportsplus (r70), basecosts (r22), belarusiantowns (r8), bros (r45), comic-houses (r71), firs (r1627), fish (ERROR r526), frenchtowns (r6), grfcodec (r818), heqs (r567), indonesiantowns (r41), manindu (r6),
17:17:19  <Brot6> metrotrackset (r56), narvs (r5), newgrf_makefile (r254), nml (ERROR r1134), nutracks (ERROR r139), ogfx-industries (r3), ogfx-landscape (ERROR r22), ogfx-rv (r78), ogfx-trains (r201), ogfx-trees (r42), opengfx (r593), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r45), spanishtowns (r10), swedishrails (r193), swisstowns (r22), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r26), ttrs (r24), worldairlinersset (r671)
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19:00:58  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of r21825 still failed (#2069) -
19:03:45  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r21488 to r21488 done -
19:04:49  <Brot6> serverpatches: compile of r21825 still failed (#2080) -
19:18:01  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2179 (New): SBB E 3/3 (Voyager1) @
19:18:34  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2179: SBB E 3/3 (Voyager1) @
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19:39:31  <frosch123> !logs
19:39:39  <frosch123> @logs
19:39:40  <Webster> #openttdcoop IRC webstuff - IRC Log Viewer -
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19:43:38  <Ammler> planetmaker: andythenorth, the api is back working again
19:43:43  <andythenorth> great
19:43:44  <Ammler> maybe you already noticed
20:00:35  <Brot6> GRFCodec - Revision 819:6ecca77a319d: Add: Warn when palette was not set via Action 14. (frosch) @
20:00:48  <frosch123> let's see on how many rebuilds that will trigger :p
20:04:18  <Lakie> Um, Rubidium, I doubt grfcodec needs that, it checks palette on image load.
20:04:26  <Lakie> (Well, that it is a ttd one)
20:05:26  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 140:b301c6908496: Add: Re-added the gfx bits :) (DJNekkid) @
20:05:26  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 141:b004cd8389b8: Fix: Updated support for the 2cc trainset (DJNekkid) @
20:05:29  <Lakie> Oh renum, does it ignore that if no action14?
20:06:00  <Brot6> nutracks: update from r138 to r141 done (1 errors) -
20:06:37  <frosch123> no, it complains when there is no action 14 (for grf version 7)
20:07:51  <frosch123> of course, one could also add an escape which is filled by grfcodec accordingly
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20:18:24  <Rubidium> though that might not be the most reliable way
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20:18:55  <Rubidium> when decoding and then encoding after changing just some NFO
20:20:17  <Lakie> Well, complaining about anj optional action is somewhat annoyign for altering older grfa
20:20:22  <Lakie> grfs*
20:22:12  <planetmaker> Lakie: it's a warning. And quite valid.
20:22:24  <planetmaker> As using it ensures that future newgrfs are much easier to handle
20:22:51  <planetmaker> making it compulsory wouldn't hurt either ;-)
20:23:01  <Lakie> Yeah, but that'd be like my putting warnings on any car before say 2009 because they don't have a sat nav
20:23:36  <planetmaker> no. It's putting warnings on a car before <whatever date> as it has no 3rd braking light or right rear mirror
20:23:46  <planetmaker> valid. Not required for old vehicles, but required for new ones
20:23:48  <Rubidium> Lakie: rather a warning on old cars that they don't have ABS
20:24:02  <Lakie> Perhaps, but those are still valid.
20:24:07  <Yexo> to keep the comparison valid: you only put a warning on that car once it goes to the garage anyway, not as long as you only drive in it
20:24:34  <Rubidium> (with ABS it's generally safer, likewise with action14 palette information OpenTTD will more likely do the right thing)
20:25:06  <planetmaker> yeah - like the manufacturers must produce cars now with 3 brake lights. But old ones without still pass technical fitness checks
20:25:09  <Lakie> Perhaps
20:25:53  <Rubidium> and when OpenGFX starts using the better palette, i.e. the DOS palette, many NewGRFs will be loaded with the wrong palette if this information isn't there
20:26:01  <Lakie> I understand the desire of OpenTTD developers to push action14, but it is an optional thing.
20:26:28  <planetmaker> Lakie: but as most newgrfs are used for OpenTTD, too and TTDPatch can handle it - what's wrong about it?
20:26:48  <Lakie> I just don't see the need to make it manditory
20:27:13  <planetmaker> well. As Rubidium said: automatich palette detection is more user comfort
20:27:39  <planetmaker> same as using the version and min_compatible_version are recommended to be used
20:27:57  <planetmaker> and all grfs by default are using the wrong palette, if one uses a DOS base set.
20:28:00  * Rubidium is more accustomed to seeing wrongly paletted NewGRFs than ones using the right palette ;)
20:28:01  <planetmaker> which is... annoying
20:28:47  <planetmaker> and moving to the DOS palette is a good thing, too: it has more colours. But in order to be able to do that: NewGRFs much announce their palette.
20:28:51  <Lakie> Well, if OpenTTD converts most graphics to dos, I imagine you would...
20:29:04  <planetmaker> Lakie: OpenTTD only uses DOS internally
20:29:10  <Lakie> I know
20:29:16  <frosch123> since when?
20:29:30  <planetmaker> half a year or so
20:29:35  <Lakie> Hense why you'd have issues since most grfs are tradionally window spaletted.
20:29:36  <Rubidium> interesting
20:29:48  <planetmaker> hm, not?
20:30:00  <Rubidium> Lakie: the problem isn't what OpenTTD uses internally
20:30:12  <Rubidium> the problem is that OpenTTD has no clue which palette is used, so it can't do the right thing
20:30:13  <frosch123> anyway, it is a warning, no error, so it is not mandatory
20:30:16  <Lakie> Its the base graphics?
20:30:30  <planetmaker> Lakie: yes and no.
20:30:52  <Rubidium> the extra base graphics are in the DOS palette and those are, if the original windows graphics are used, converted to the Windows palette
20:32:16  <planetmaker> as usual Rubidium made the point exactly: one cannot deduce the palette of a newgrf from any kind of information, but it's needed for correctly displaying the grf.
20:32:34  <planetmaker> independent of any base set palette being used.
20:32:54  <Lakie> Ok,
20:33:15  <Rubidium> so we're basically hinting NewGRF developers that actually use a really recent NFOrenum to add the information, or to override the warning
20:33:45  <Rubidium> and I'd say NFOrenum has more warnings that would trigger on old NewGRFs
20:33:49  <Rubidium> maybe even errors
20:33:56  <Lakie> Likely
20:34:17  <Rubidium> like... *cough*... old newobjects NewGRFs ;)
20:34:50  <Rubidium> does NFORenum actually check the grf version?
20:34:54  <frosch123> yes
20:35:05  <frosch123> but likely only for and 2..7
20:35:24  <frosch123> it also knows about version 7 vs. those before
20:35:39  <frosch123> but it does not know what features are available exactly in version 2 to 6
20:35:53  <Lakie> Most old newobject grfs should still be relatively valid. ;)
20:36:34  <Lakie> This said, I still see people not using text and escapes in nfo despite the face it could make life easier.
20:36:49  <Lakie> Oh that reminds me
20:37:00  <planetmaker> you also see people claiming to use grf version 1 ;-)
20:37:16  <Lakie> Can we disable conversion to text on say action2s and if its using a 16 bit textid, the second byte of the textid?
20:37:43  <Lakie> Seeing things like "    ?" in my action2 advs is somewhat confusing. :)
20:38:08  <frosch123> "nforenum -a" fixes that stuff
20:38:13  <Rubidium> Lakie: if you know what to change at which location of nforenum I guess you can ;)
20:38:39  <frosch123> no idea, in which cases grfcodec produces ".."-stuff though
20:38:46  <Lakie> I was thinking more about grfcodec's decompiling sequence
20:39:12  <Lakie> Ok
20:39:43  <Lakie> Just seems to always claim the D0-D3 part of the textids confuing people.
20:40:12  <Lakie> Since they rewrite the string not knowing that the first character was the stringid.
20:42:59  <Lakie> Ah well, I guess I'll have a look over the grfcodec source later to see if its fixable.
20:43:51  <frosch123> the stuff is around info.cpp:240
20:44:22  <frosch123> no idea what it tries to do though :)
20:44:53  <Lakie> Heh,
20:45:09  <Ammler> [21:25] <Rubidium> and when OpenGFX starts using the better palette, i.e. the DOS palette, many NewGRFs will be loaded with the wrong palette if this information isn't there <-- could be easy avoided by setting default palette to windows
20:46:08  <Ammler> as long as baseset sets the default for the newgrfs palette, opengfx can't switch to dos, imo
20:47:24  <Rubidium> Ammler: but... that breaks other users
20:47:51  <Ammler> don't think so, you know a banans grf with dos palette without a14?
20:49:09  <frosch123> we could move the -i option to advanced settings
20:49:14  <Ammler> also it would still be possible to use dos paletted ttd base set
20:49:19  <frosch123> and use that one instead
20:51:17  <Ammler> you could use no a14=windows palette, a14 without palette=dos palette
20:51:42  <Lakie> Too generic
20:52:11  <Lakie> Lots of people are trying to make use of action14's other features (they should set palette though)
20:52:33  <Ammler> might be but the current solution with depending it on baseset doesn't make sense either, it is just a defintion
20:52:54  <Lakie> I guess
20:53:44  <Ammler> Lakie, I guess, that is the warning, frosch added, I just mean, the conversion of opengfx should not depend on that, rather depend what does openttd with newgrfs, which don't have a a14 at all
20:54:22  <Lakie> Well, like I said I have no issues with warning if they provide an action14
20:54:31  <Lakie> But I do if it warns because its ommited
20:55:08  <Ammler> oh, it does also warn if you don't have a14 at all?
20:55:27  <Lakie> I don't know, thats really what I wanted to know
20:56:19  * Lakie is sorry about the mess above, either way.
20:56:32  <frosch123> yes, it warns whenever you are using a14. just as it also warns on trailing bytes, or invalid dummy-realsprites, or mb-style recolour sprites
20:57:04  <frosch123> err, i meant: it warns whenever you are using grf version >= 7
20:57:27  <Ammler> frosch123: can't you reduce that to when a14 is used?
20:57:33  <frosch123> that is pointless
20:57:47  <Ammler> well, someone could make special nfo for patch
20:58:13  <Ammler> then you should rather warn for missing a14
20:58:22  <planetmaker> why? Newgrf are anyway used in both programmes
20:58:38  <Lakie> Heh, not really
20:58:43  <Ammler> patch doesn't work with a14
20:58:45  <Lakie> More likely in OpenTTD these days
20:58:56  <frosch123> Ammler: nightlies do
20:58:57  <Lakie> Many authors have forgone making things compatible
21:00:39  <Lakie> And yes, the nightlies ignore action14 as intented, The betas have an old bug which causes issues in skipping them
21:01:51  <Lakie> Some have complained over some things not being 'backported' to ttdpatch from openttd also.
21:01:57  <planetmaker> Lakie: I think quite a fair number still tries to keep things compatible
21:03:00  <Lakie> I'm unsure, the number of times I've seen just openttd when it should work in both is increasing
21:03:40  <Lakie> Whether that be they can only test OpenTTD I don't know.
21:04:13  <planetmaker> Lakie: well. It IS not always easy to test TTDP. It simply, for example, doesn't run on this machine.
21:04:15  <Ammler> Lakie: there aren't many "community people" left playing ttdp
21:04:36  <planetmaker> Unless I might go through a several-hours orgy of trying to configure dosbox away from its defaults. or wine
21:04:38  <Lakie> Ammler: this I know also.
21:04:38  <Rubidium> heh... we are working very hard to keep people playing TTDPatch ;)
21:04:38  <Ammler> you don't get feedback, if your set is working or not without strictly asking someone
21:04:39  <Lakie> ;)
21:04:44  <planetmaker> TTD actually works on wine, btw.
21:05:07  <Lakie> Not even the windows version of ttdpatch on wine?
21:05:20  * Lakie remembers something about Josef only testing on wine
21:05:28  <planetmaker> no. I tried a whole afternoon some time ago to actually get a test environment for that
21:05:35  <Lakie> Since he used linux and not windows...
21:06:03  <Ammler> Lakie: on linux, it works fine
21:06:10  <Ammler> planetmaker: is using osx
21:06:18  <Lakie> Ok, sorry about that. Afraid its outside of my expertice to fix though. :(
21:06:56  <planetmaker> it's the usual wine... but yeah, ttdpatch for windows just crashes on me... while ttd in the same wine config works
21:06:57  <Lakie> Just like the midi player locking and never being ulocked by the vista kernel
21:07:46  <Ammler> he, so wine is more like windows98 :-)
21:07:58  <Lakie> I thougt it was xp nowdays?
21:08:00  <Ammler> since you need ttdp for playing ttd on xp
21:08:27  <Ammler> Lakie: maybe the osx version is much behind the linux one
21:08:42  <Lakie> Ah ok
21:08:59  <planetmaker> Ammler: it's not...
21:09:28  <Ammler> planetmaker: well, it would make sense, never tried ttd
21:10:18  <planetmaker> Ammler: but it's not true. 1.3.4 is even newer than the current stable
21:11:04  <Ammler> hmm, ttd doesn't work
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21:35:03  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/cargodist registered in Redmine with url /home/hg/cargodist
21:35:03  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/cargodist created
21:36:01  <planetmaker> hu? cargodist?
21:39:01  <Rubidium> if only... cpp were registered ;)
21:41:54  <Ammler> hehe
21:42:45  <Ammler> I deleted an old cargodist repo..., now the autoscript thought to need to create a hg repo instead
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23:13:52  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 142:a3146a127376: Fix: The metro tracks with 'catenary' lacked the catenary b... (DJNekkid) @
23:13:52  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 143:7841988f81a3: Change: All metro tracks now have the correct GUI (DJNekkid) @
23:13:52  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 144:7f2125cec74f: Change: the ugly 120/125kmh tracks is now replaced with def... (DJNekkid) @
23:13:54  <Brot6> Nutracks - Revision 145:cb879df2c100: Add: Tunnel sprites (DJNekkid) @
23:16:27  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Revision 719:642a1eac9e6a: Change: Updated tracking table to the new stuffs in nu... (DJNekkid) @

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