Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 2nd March 2011:
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01:40:28  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 80:4555ed69b451: - ... (krinn) @
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03:41:35  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1822:2d0507d83d48: Feature: improved Aluminium Plant app... (andythenorth) @
03:41:35  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1021 (Closed): Aluminium Plant - rework graphics for bau... (andythenorth) @
03:46:37  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1823:db7a65134342: Change: allow Plastics Plant to use a... (andythenorth) @
03:58:07  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1824:7335af3179ad: Change: allow Brickworks to use all c... (andythenorth) @
04:12:13  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2350 (Resolved): Alcohol not produced in sub-tropical sugar ... (andythenorth) @
04:16:17  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1825:a6de428959be: Fix: remove Alcohol from produced car... (andythenorth) @
04:16:17  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2350 (Closed): Alcohol not produced in sub-tropical sugar re... (andythenorth) @
04:46:39  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1826:e1db395ecaf8: Change: housekeeping Brickworks sourc... (andythenorth) @
04:50:50  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2348 (Closed): Steel Works intro date might need to be l... (andythenorth) @
04:56:50  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2088 (Closed): Oil wells and plantations cause subsidence di... (andythenorth) @
05:01:50  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2363: Are enough stores generated at map gen? (andythenorth) @
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05:56:40  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1827:3f959b0d9ce5: Feature: Machine Shop intro date now ... (andythenorth) @
05:56:40  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1828:12d6e03f344a: Feature: Steel Mill intro date now 18... (andythenorth) @
05:56:40  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1829:e2b7e6de098b: Feature: Junk Yard intro date now 187... (andythenorth) @
05:56:42  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1830:1d53d3e1eb60: Change: update changelog preparatory ... (andythenorth) @
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06:08:49  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1831:5f7f9dd4bcaf: Change: further update changelog (andythenorth) @
06:21:23  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1170 (Rejected): clustering of certain industries (andythenorth) @
06:22:44  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #729 (Rejected): town growth cargos (andythenorth) @
06:24:26  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1964: Clay Pit - small gatehouse building flickering (andythenorth) @
06:28:31  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1567 (Confirmed): fishing grounds accept passengers (andythenorth) @
06:29:35  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1562 (Rejected): add harbour (dock) to fishing harbour (andythenorth) @
06:30:40  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1567 (Rejected): fishing grounds accept passengers (andythenorth) @
06:32:19  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1169 (Resolved): locate industries near town (andythenorth) @
06:33:23  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #834 (Rejected): Don't forget to try var 2C for controlli... (andythenorth) @
06:36:04  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1564: Cargo chains can be broken on some maps as some indust... (andythenorth) @
06:36:04  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature Request #2253 (Rejected): HQ should accept alcohol (andythenorth) @
06:37:11  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1169 (Closed): locate industries near town (andythenorth) @
06:47:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2281 (Rejected): Fishing chain locations not ideal on low wa... (andythenorth) @
06:56:21  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #811 (Rejected): Inappropriate refits for NARS with FIRS (andythenorth) @
07:00:02  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #274 (Rejected): industries changing looks over time (andythenorth) @
07:02:17  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2320 (Rejected): Fences for industries (andythenorth) @
07:09:38  <andythenorth> FIRS ticket count reduced to 68 :P
07:10:24  * andythenorth rejects many tickets
07:10:28  * andythenorth now rejects internets
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08:59:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1832:8a938137bb27: Feature: additional layout for Alumin... (andythenorth) @
08:59:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1833:f2761ea50525: Feature: additional layout for Alumin... (andythenorth) @
08:59:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1022 (Closed): Additional layouts for Aluminium Plant (andythenorth) @
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09:28:53  <andythenorth> Ammler: planetmaker is coop using hudson?
09:32:53  <planetmaker> mostly not
09:33:04  <planetmaker> And if, it would be using jenkins ;-)
09:33:44  * andythenorth is maybe starting a new work project 
09:38:05  <planetmaker> :-D
09:39:15  <dihedral> andythenorth, if you want to use hudson + nexus just give me a shout
09:39:28  <dihedral> &
09:39:29  <Webster> Title: Dashboard [Hudson] (at
09:39:43  <dihedral> planetmaker, i'd not just jet go for jenkins ;-)
09:39:47  <andythenorth> it's more that the app we're planning might provide integration with hudson (among other things)
09:39:54  <dihedral> hudson is still the main supported thing by sonatype
09:39:57  <planetmaker> andythenorth, what project is on your mind?
09:40:26  <planetmaker> dihedral, it's virtually the same. But hudson is oracle and jenkins the main developers branch...
09:40:27  <andythenorth> we're still working it out
09:40:32  <planetmaker> like OOo and LibreOffice
09:40:44  <dihedral> planetmaker, i know ;-)
09:41:04  <andythenorth> the thing we're working on is a utility intended for developers who have to maintain multiple production apps / services
09:41:05  <dihedral> i'd still give them a little more time before moving to jenkins
09:42:03  <dihedral> perhaps another 6 months
09:48:36  <planetmaker> andythenorth, what kind of utility?
09:48:51  <andythenorth> we're working out the details at the moment
09:49:02  <planetmaker> dihedral, as there's no difference... I see no point in not using it now. It's the very same code
09:49:22  <andythenorth> but say you maintain....maybe 50 production instances of a web framework, with service level agreements etc
09:49:31  <planetmaker> especially as oracle has lost all credibility in my eyes
09:49:42  <andythenorth> this would be a centralised tool using plugins to report upgrades, changes in config etc
09:49:58  <planetmaker> ah, I see
09:50:09  <Ammler> planetmaker: so we should move our dbs to pgsql?
09:50:35  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's early stages, we're still designing prototype :)
09:50:47  <andythenorth> but it might also have applicability to CFs
09:51:07  <planetmaker> hehe :-) If it is useful here in your eyes, andythenorth - give a shout
09:51:13  <andythenorth> thanks
09:51:18  <dihedral> pg is better i think :-)
09:51:19  <andythenorth> ottd might be a good test case
09:51:24  <andythenorth> or devzone projects
09:51:46  <dihedral> esp as it can handle master master setups :-)
09:52:03  <dihedral> planetmaker, the issue i see with jenkins is not for _now_ but in 6 months
09:52:40  <planetmaker> and that is, dihedral ?
09:52:44  <dihedral> i.e. i want nexus, sonar, and hudson to function properly together - however if sonatype has already announced that they will keep support focused on hudson, i fear that jenkins could have an issue in that time
09:53:14  <planetmaker> yeah. But Hudson developers are now Jenkins developers mostly ;-)
09:53:21  <dihedral> which is why i want to wait to see how all three parts work together
09:53:33  <dihedral> i do not fear the hudson / jenkins developers :_D
09:53:40  <dihedral> i fear nexus / sonar :-)
09:53:51  <dihedral> and maven
09:54:07  <dihedral> i have already considered moving to jenkins
09:54:17  <dihedral> and have postponed it for that reason
09:54:24  <dihedral> just to be able to watch and see what happens
09:54:51  <dihedral> i do not want to move to jenkins and in half a year move back to hudson for whatever reason
09:54:59  <dihedral> then i'd rather only do one move
10:02:17  <Ammler> he, George is asking if he can use the translation system used for FIRS also for ECS :-)
10:04:21  <Ammler> who should I forward him to? ( andythenorth, planetmaker or Terkhen )
10:04:22  <Terkhen> :)
10:04:57  <planetmaker> :-) Ammler, sure he can use it. It's GPL'ed. It'd need a change of his license, I guess :-P
10:05:10  <Ammler> "Sorry, do I understand it right, that a translating system, used for OTTD, id also used for translating FIRS, and it is automatically transformed into NFO? If yes, whom I can ask to help to make the same system for ECS too?"
10:05:46  <planetmaker> Well. Probably that understanding is not quite correct.
10:06:07  * andythenorth will stay out of this one :P
10:06:09  <planetmaker> I'll answer him. Tonight
10:06:22  <Ammler> planetmaker: I forward the mail to you then
10:06:25  <planetmaker> thanks
10:06:50  <Terkhen> besides the system being GPL, I don't think he's using pnfo so he would need to change how ECS is built or to build translations separately
10:07:35  <planetmaker> quite probable
10:08:47  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1834:13d4f19b01db: Feature: additional layout for Brick ... (andythenorth) @
10:08:47  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2095 (Closed): Brick Works - additional layouts (andythenorth) @
10:10:10  <planetmaker> he also sent me a somewhat lengthy mail where he suggests to merge basically ECS houses and TTRS
10:10:42  <Ammler> planetmaker: you could also add comments like "// approved" to changed strings which don't need real change in German
10:10:57  <Terkhen> I remember reading that he was planning a new version of TTRS as a ECS-only NewGRF
10:11:16  <Terkhen> Ammler: I like that idea, I'll do that for spanish :P
10:11:28  <planetmaker> well. It'd make somewhat sense to build upon TTRS to use extended cargos.
10:11:43  <planetmaker> Only like it looks now he wants to out-source too much of the work to me ;-)
10:11:57  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you have enough work :P
10:12:01  <Terkhen> :)
10:12:02  <planetmaker> And I'm not really comfortable with the code base of TTRS
10:12:03  <Ammler> hehe
10:12:20  <andythenorth> we can start a new house set
10:12:27  <Terkhen> I could help if it was nml :P
10:12:32  * andythenorth reverse acronyms HOUSES
10:12:33  <planetmaker> andythenorth, exactly.
10:12:35  <andythenorth> or TOWN
10:12:47  * andythenorth can't think of anything good :P
10:12:47  <planetmaker> Terkhen, also exactly ;-)
10:12:51  <andythenorth> hmm
10:13:04  <andythenorth> if NewStations gets done, I might do a harbour set called CHIPS
10:13:09  <planetmaker> Still, I'd like to give him some help. He's a good guy and deserves it, too
10:13:09  <andythenorth> goes nicely with FISH :P
10:13:22  <planetmaker> What do you mean with "newstations", andythenorth ?
10:13:40  <Terkhen> planetmaker: but the day only has 24 hours ;)
10:13:42  <Terkhen> andythenorth: :D
10:13:45  <andythenorth> whatever NewAirports branch is now called
10:14:00  <andythenorth> daylength patch for RL?
10:14:03  <planetmaker> Terkhen, sadly, yes. And currently there's not much free time anyway :-(
10:14:13  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I volunteer to test
10:14:21  <Terkhen> you could always stop sleeping
10:14:22  * andythenorth will go back to working on the sets already started :P
10:14:28  <planetmaker> Terkhen, I did... :S
10:14:37  <andythenorth> only two more tickets and I can do FIRS 0.6.2 :|
10:14:38  <planetmaker> 5 hours is not much.
10:14:48  <Terkhen> heh, that was only meant as a joke :P
10:14:56  <planetmaker> hehe ;-)
10:14:57  <andythenorth> 5 hours is about standard if you have a baby
10:15:12  <andythenorth> you simply go just-enough insane that you no longer care
10:15:52  <andythenorth> anyone played / playing a FIRS game and got time to discuss a feature I'm working on?
10:15:53  <andythenorth> ach, don't ask to ask
10:15:54  <andythenorth>
10:15:58  <andythenorth> any other suggested chains for that?
10:16:12  <andythenorth> I'll probably argue the case, but I'm open to ideas :P
10:17:03  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I played a bit but not much because the industries were too sparse and the nearby ones were already taken (server configuration fault, not FIRS)
10:17:06  <Terkhen> let's see
10:17:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth, if so, make co-location a map-size dependent thing
10:18:05  <Terkhen> hmmm... I don't understand what you mean
10:18:12  <planetmaker> like co-location = 15 tiles * map_size_parameter
10:18:17  * Terkhen looks for colocation
10:18:35  <planetmaker> besides... what's the point in transporting stuff, if the appropriate industries are adjacent, andythenorth ?
10:19:03  <Terkhen> hmmm... like farm clustering but for more industries?
10:19:21  <planetmaker> Personally I'd consider it a realism-thing which is ill-placed as it counters the game purpose to _transport_ stuff
10:19:41  <planetmaker> If they're nearby, my profits are gone
10:20:29  <planetmaker> So.. I'm not a fan to really cluster industries of one chain.
10:20:40  <Terkhen> I usually consider that secondary industries too close to their primary ones should not appear in the map because they would handle transportation by themselves in that case
10:20:44  <planetmaker> Though it might be nice to a certain extend.
10:21:02  <planetmaker> it give sense to HEQS :-P
10:21:29  <Terkhen> should we suggest another setting? :)
10:22:10  <planetmaker> suggestions are free ;-)
10:22:51  <Terkhen> :D
10:23:21  <Terkhen> well, too much parameters is one of the problems I foresee with ogfx-industries
10:23:55  <planetmaker> well... yes and no. As Ammler put it: parameters are not the main problem. Sensible defaults are important
10:24:05  <planetmaker> That's somewhat true
10:24:50  <planetmaker> It only might need better parameter GUI handling and extension of action14 :-P
10:24:55  <planetmaker> "only" :-P
10:25:09  <Terkhen> :)
10:25:37  <planetmaker> and better might be to introduce categories like in the adv. settings or so.
10:25:47  <Terkhen> yes, that's what I was thinking
10:25:58  <planetmaker> which allow hiding
10:26:34  <Terkhen> for example, Oil could group the "Oil chain", "distance from water for refineries" and, possibly "build oil wells in temperate after 1950" settings
10:26:50  <Terkhen> but... a GUI like that already scared me off from the split refit GUI patch
10:26:54  <planetmaker> yes. And only show the latter, if oil is selected
10:27:34  <planetmaker> or maybe not show, but enable / disable it. And indent them somehow visually
10:27:49  <Terkhen> because the advanced setting GUI is too specific, it would probably need a separate GUI or a generalization of the existing one
10:27:57  <planetmaker> yeah
10:28:03  <planetmaker> surely it does
10:29:07  <andythenorth> progressive disclosure on the action 14 / parameters menu makes sense
10:29:12  <andythenorth> I've thought of it before
10:29:23  <andythenorth> a new action 1 category for menu sub-group
10:29:35  <andythenorth> dunno how it would be structured though
10:29:48  <planetmaker> like adv. settings makes sense to me
10:30:00  <planetmaker> after all they are ;-)
10:30:50  <andythenorth> that's what I had in mind too
10:31:13  <andythenorth> dunno how the action 14 would associate the menu sub-group items with the sub-group header though
10:31:20  <andythenorth> I guess they're all just associated by a label
10:31:49  <andythenorth> meanwhile...the FIRS industry co-location thing is currently 16-60 tiles
10:32:06  <andythenorth> the purpose is primarily to make sure certain chains can be finished in early games
10:32:33  <Terkhen> what it does, making sure that secondary industries are placed at a certain distance from primary ones?
10:33:04  <andythenorth> can locate any industry near any specified other type of industry
10:33:18  <andythenorth> so iron works locate near-ish to iron ore mines at the moment
10:33:32  <Terkhen> it would make sense if it is scaled to the map size
10:33:36  <andythenorth> hmm
10:33:54  <andythenorth> only if vehicle speed and payment rates also got scaled with map size recently :P
10:34:23  <Terkhen> since FIRS has so much industries, in a 2048x2048 game I was not able to find any chains close enough to make any profit
10:34:36  <Terkhen> the map is way too big anyways :P
10:35:35  <andythenorth> Terkhen: that's an interesting problem
10:35:50  <andythenorth> I had similar on a 256x256 map with hard difficulty settings in 1850
10:36:21  <andythenorth> I could only make money on Fish - which has colocated supply/accept industries
10:36:30  <Terkhen> I don't think it would happen if there were more industries on the map, though
10:36:45  <Terkhen> so maybe it could also depend on industry density
10:37:56  <andythenorth> it doesn't happen so much with High industry
10:38:01  <andythenorth> maybe I just test it and see :P
10:38:05  <andythenorth> empiricism wins
10:38:53  <andythenorth> I think I'll just do it for forest + sawmill
10:39:01  <andythenorth> the other examples are based on RL, not gameplay
10:40:29  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1835:53a13d5c9b8f: Change: corrected a comment (andythenorth) @
10:42:07  <Terkhen> :)
11:12:07  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1836:b3fe5d7989a7: Feature: Sawmills will try to locate ... (andythenorth) @
11:12:07  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2236 (Closed): Consider colocating more primary / secondary ... (andythenorth) @
11:12:17  <andythenorth> I colocated sawmills with forests
11:12:20  <andythenorth> it's not flawless
11:12:24  <andythenorth> but it's better
11:12:46  <andythenorth> that's enough for now
11:13:38  * andythenorth ponders
11:15:04  <andythenorth> pikka thinks FFh for industry prop 08 is a bad idea
11:19:34  <Terkhen> he hints that setting that to 0xFF does not allow you to define anything else with that ID
11:19:48  <Terkhen> but I'm not sure I understood it correctly
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11:27:46  <andythenorth> it would make sense
11:27:54  <andythenorth> I could read the source and find the actual answer :P
11:28:02  <andythenorth> but it's 40' and 70% humidity
11:28:12  <andythenorth> you will notice that most commits come from cold countries :P
11:28:20  <Yexo> if you set prop 8 for id 4 to FF all you do is disable original industry 4
11:28:36  <Yexo> you can still create a new industry with id 4 by setting prop 8 to something else
11:28:51  <andythenorth> I'll take that as canonical
11:29:01  <andythenorth> which means I can also close a ticket :D
11:29:13  <andythenorth> and might leave me with new work to do :P
11:29:28  <andythenorth> probably every FIRS industry can currently cause a subsidence disaster
11:30:00  <Yexo> pikka was correct however that you shouldn't set prop 8 to FF for industries you define
11:31:05  <Yexo> by setting prop 8 to something valid (not FF) you tell openttd: here is a new industry. Every property / action3 before you set prop 8 will be ignored
11:31:23  <andythenorth> ok thanks
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13:44:33  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1837:b6382de6ee59: Feature: additional layout for Lime Kiln (andythenorth) @
13:53:36  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1838:6f6ccead3806: Feature: additional layout for Lime Kiln (andythenorth) @
13:53:36  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2312 (Closed): Improve Lime Kiln graphics (andythenorth) @
13:53:53  <Ammler> when do you need properity 8 without 9, I used that just for FF :-)
13:54:04  <andythenorth> planetmaker: any translations to go into FIRS 0.6.2?
13:54:08  <andythenorth> I might ship soon
13:56:19  <Ammler> ah, when you like to use the id for a different industry, I see
13:56:19  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1839:540b27f4cbbf: Change: update changelog further for ... (andythenorth) @
13:58:13  <planetmaker> andythenorth, serbian
13:59:08  <andythenorth> planetmaker: likely to get done soon?
13:59:11  <andythenorth> i.e. today, maybe now :)
13:59:18  <andythenorth> I have my usual level of patience :)
14:01:24  <planetmaker> not now by myself. But you could just grab it from the thread and commit it most probably
14:03:35  <andythenorth> might leave it for 0.6.3
14:03:43  <andythenorth> which shouldn't be far away
14:04:07  <planetmaker> nah. Include it please
14:04:15  <planetmaker> It's quite de-motivating if it's not included
14:04:16  <Ammler> andythenorth: you just need to replace the file, as I understood pm right
14:04:35  <planetmaker> de-motivating for translators
14:04:54  <andythenorth> I also have to check nothing broke :P
14:04:56  <planetmaker> he's been kind, he should be treated with it.
14:04:57  <andythenorth> but I can do that
14:05:11  <Ammler> andythenorth: run the check script before and after
14:05:14  <planetmaker> and he went through the effort to include genders
14:11:50  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I should check the spanish translation, when are you planning to release?
14:12:01  <andythenorth> today :)
14:12:08  <Terkhen> at which time?
14:12:09  <andythenorth> it's 19.42 here
14:12:15  <andythenorth> I go to bed...some time :)
14:12:32  <Terkhen> hmmm... okay, give me an hour so I can finish this :)
14:12:57  <andythenorth> np
14:15:06  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1840:c1b9e3ea9f0f: Change: (translations) updated Serbia... (andythenorth) @
14:16:18  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1841:0ae7ed6080e7: Change: update changelog for 0.6.2 (andythenorth) @
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14:49:29  * Lakie has a few questions over how nml (and openttd)? process lang files, in particular handling of the {} tags...
14:50:22  <Yexo> feel free to ask
14:51:46  <Lakie> I was reading nml's code, and understood the simple ones like ORANGE, but didn't quite understand why the . checks or special versions, or how plural strings are handled.
14:53:07  <Yexo> did you see the gender/case/plural choice list on ?
14:54:05  <Lakie> No, I'll have a read of it now, isn't something I've seen since I spend most of my time developing for TTDPatch
14:54:35  <Yexo> all of them depend on some parameter for the string
14:55:13  <Yexo> For example I can have a string "I own %d house(s)". The final "s" should only be part of the string if %d != 1
14:56:05  <Yexo> so that's an example of a plural string: It's encoded as "I own <int parameter her> house<plural choice list, value depends on 1st parameter, display "" if != 1, display "s" if 1>"
14:56:31  <Lakie> Ok, sounds a little confusing, heh.
14:57:04  <Yexo> for genders it works exactly the same. Every string can start with a code {G=x} where x it the gender of that particular string
14:57:29  <Yexo> other strings can than depend on the gender of an included string, just like they could depend on the plurality of a integer parameter
14:58:04  <Lakie> Hmm.. ok, from a writing action4 point of view, most of this will be done by codes in the texts?
14:58:15  <Yexo> yes
14:59:04  <Yexo> code 9A: 0E to 15
14:59:32  <Yexo> the examples under the table give some more information
15:00:04  <Lakie> Ok, currently wondering if I should just grab some of nml's code for parsing the .lng files for my little script which aims to generate action4/8/14's for me
15:00:33  <Yexo> nml allows you to use E for orange for example
15:00:47  <Yexo> so you don't have to switch to the {}-syntax if you don't want to
15:01:32  <Lakie> Hmmm.. thats nice. :)
15:14:46  <Terkhen> andythenorth: the spanish translation is fine
15:20:22  <andythenorth> Terkhen: thanks
15:27:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1842:77e4ee978a98: Added tag 0.6.2 for changeset 0ae7ed6... (andythenorth) @
15:28:54  <Brot6> firs: update from 0.6.1 to 0.6.2 done -
15:36:51  <planetmaker> Lakie, if you devise such script, I'd be very interested in adding it to the newgrf makefile framework
15:37:18  <planetmaker> Or if you like, I could grant you commit rights there...
15:37:36  <planetmaker> it's basically an example nfo and and example nml project with the corresponding makefiles
15:37:52  <planetmaker> it would suit well into the nfo part
15:44:01  <Terkhen> planetmaker: <-- if you don't have time now; there is no hurry :)
15:47:30  <Lakie> Maybe, planetmaker.
15:47:56  <Lakie> It have the core working, it's just figuring out how to piece bits together like the {} tags and such
15:48:27  * Lakie knows not how to modify makefiles though so its run manually, which is a minor inconvience, heh.
15:48:50  <planetmaker> it could also and additionally be packed separately when within that project. The current output are four zip files, it could as well be five ;-)
15:48:59  <planetmaker> Lakie, just "make" ;-)
15:49:13  <planetmaker> and a text editor for modification :-P
15:49:45  <Lakie> I meant so make runs the script based on lng files being altered. :)
15:50:10  <Lakie> And cleans up my lnfo's it makes.
15:50:10  <planetmaker> well, I shall be happy to help with that
15:50:32  <planetmaker> basically a makefile works like
15:50:36  <planetmaker> target: dependencies
15:50:47  <planetmaker>   rules how to create target from dependencies
15:51:07  <Lakie> Ok,
15:51:10  <planetmaker> that's it. Repeat for every (intermediate or final) target
15:51:49  <Lakie> So %.lnfo: %.lng\n$(_E) "[Lang]"\n$(_V) <script>?
15:52:04  <planetmaker> basically yes
15:52:37  <planetmaker> where you'll need blubber.lng when you want to create blubber.lnfo
15:55:32  <planetmaker> Terkhen, re: 030_cargos...
15:55:48  <planetmaker> is the order of cargos the same as the default order?
15:56:36  <Lakie> Hmm... that could be a small issue, as it tends not to create blubber.lnfo but action14-info.lnfo, action8.lnfo, etc.
15:56:44  <Lakie> action4-veh00, etc
15:56:45  <planetmaker> maybe it might be worth to do four different CTTs, depending upon climate, some older NewGRFs might use the cargos without CTT
15:57:01  <Lakie> So I can include the lnfos in the pnfo as required...
15:57:10  <Yexo> Lakie: so "action14-info.lnfo: english.lng german.lng dutch.lng ...."
15:58:03  <Lakie> Ok
15:58:56  <planetmaker> Terkhen, also I'd reduce the defines from XXX_ENABLE_CONDITION to XXX_ENABLED or even USE_XXX
15:59:19  <planetmaker> but that is purely the way I personally would name those defines ;-)
16:01:57  <Terkhen> planetmaker: I don't think it is worth the effort; those old NewGRFs would break as soon as any custom chain is used anyways
16:02:03  <Yexo> Terkhen: the ttdpatch wiki advises to set the cargo label to 0 if you disable a cargo
16:02:30  <Terkhen> I don't mind the define name change, I tend to write too long names
16:02:35  <Terkhen> Yexo: I'll do that, thanks :)
16:02:54  <planetmaker> better too long thant too cryptic, Terkhen ;-)
16:02:59  <planetmaker> -t
16:03:15  <Yexo> prod_cargo_types:               [cargotype("COAL")]; <- why not [COAL] ?
16:03:19  <Yexo> or does that not work?
16:04:06  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1843:34bc288f7bd3: Fix (r1790): source bundle needs to b... (Ammler) @
16:04:14  <Terkhen> Yexo: I did not try without, the documentation advices to use cargotype("...")
16:04:22  <Yexo> ok :)
16:04:38  <Yexo> the "cargotable" is not in cargo_definition.pnml, but imo it doesn't really belong there
16:04:48  <andythenorth> Ammler: what's the FIRS issue?
16:04:55  <Yexo> cargotable and "item(FEAT_CARGOS" have nothing to do with eachother
16:04:56  <andythenorth> should I fix it?
16:05:22  <Terkhen> you are right... most nml NewGRFs define the cargotable in the header
16:05:58  <Yexo> it doesn't have to be in the header, just not near the "item(FEAT_CARGOS" as now it looks like they have something to do with eachother, which they don't
16:06:31  <Terkhen> planetmaker: in regard to the old NewGRFs, wouldn't they be using cargo property 0x08?
16:07:20  <Yexo> Terkhen: indeed
16:07:42  <planetmaker> hm ok :-)
16:07:52  <Yexo> possible also the id of the cargo
16:08:05  <Yexo> but again that has nothing to do with the cargotable in your newgrf
16:08:36  <planetmaker> hm, you're right...
16:08:36  <Terkhen> ok :)
16:09:29  <planetmaker> <-- I thoaght of type A in that table.
16:09:46  <planetmaker> isn't that defined by the cargo-defining newgrf?
16:10:10  <Lakie> Is it ok if I nab some parts of nml so processing of the lang file strings is (virtually) the same output, planetmaker? (obviously crediting)?
16:10:42  <Yexo> planetmaker: yes, but by setting the "number" property (=prop 08)
16:10:53  <planetmaker> Lakie, sure it is, assuming you use GPL ;-)
16:11:05  <planetmaker> But the nml part was most likely written by yexo
16:11:16  <Lakie> Heh, maybe, dunno yet, 'tis upto DanMacK for than me.
16:11:21  <planetmaker> ah, missed that, thanks Yexo :-)
16:11:31  <Yexo> it was, and basically it's a rewrite of some code of openttd's strgen
16:11:41  <Yexo> so I can't say it's completely original code by me
16:11:49  <planetmaker> he. Difficult to re-license then
16:11:55  <Yexo> exactly
16:12:16  <Lakie> Heh, fair enough
16:12:18  <planetmaker> that's what I told George today about FIRS' language handling, too. I lost track who all meddled with it
16:13:18  <Lakie> I have a quiry, if one uses a gpl systrem to produce output from an input, does said output need to be gpl?
16:13:26  <planetmaker> no
16:13:42  <Lakie> I have no issues with the script being gpl, but I'm unsure about what lisence DanMacK wants on the finnish set
16:13:51  <Lakie> (grf)
16:13:54  <planetmaker> the output of a tool does not need to follow the license of the tool
16:14:18  <Yexo> gcc is gpl, that doesn't make every project compiled with gcc gpl too :)
16:14:29  <Lakie> Hehe, ok
16:14:46  * Lakie shall have a look through and try to work it all out. :)
16:15:18  <planetmaker> Lakie, DanMacK is - from my experience, and given his signature - quite liberal with his licensing, though
16:15:24  <planetmaker> basically you can choose.
16:15:52  <Lakie> Don't mind, 'tis going to built from your framework as a base (somewhat modified), so gpl I guess
16:16:25  <Lakie> But, not all graphics are Dan's, a few come from some finnish members, so we'll see
16:16:50  <planetmaker> as coder you have power ;-)
16:17:35  <planetmaker> but actually the only thing I absolutely dislike is a no-derivative clause.
16:17:52  <Lakie> like mb uses?
16:18:11  <Lakie> also, bbiab
16:18:24  <planetmaker> Dunno, maybe. It's an anti-community clause in my eyes.
16:18:43  <Yexo> at least it's clear, it's better than no license at all
16:19:04  <planetmaker> that's true, but 'no license' is actually just as clear
16:19:20  <planetmaker> though 'no license' also disallows distribution
16:19:23  <Yexo> 'no license' generally means that the person hasn't given it a single thought
16:23:23  <planetmaker> Lakie, the only thing which really matters for me is that my contributions can be continued to be used freely by everyone without the need for anyone asking for permission as long as credits are given. Only that makes sure it will continue to live past my activity time :-)
16:23:50  <planetmaker> TTRS is IMHO the best example, where it was possible due to the license to keep it up to date to current specifications
16:24:04  <planetmaker> even though it's years old by now
16:27:10  <andythenorth> no license is lame
16:27:24  <andythenorth> it's equivalent to burning your own work
16:29:15  <Lakie> Heh
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16:55:51  <Brot6> Grf2Html - Bug #2374: grf2html does not build on x86_64 (Ammler) @
17:00:44  <Brot6> Grf2Html - Bug #2374 (Closed): grf2html does not build on x86_64 (Ammler) @
17:00:44  <Brot6> Grf2Html - Bug #2374 (Closed): grf2html does not build on x86_64 (Ammler) @
17:11:47  <Terkhen> hmmm... disable_item for cargos sets the cargo label to zero too?
17:17:31  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2384 (New): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @
17:17:36  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r743), 32bpp-extra (r39), ai-admiralai (r75), ai-aroai (r11), ailib-common (r21), ailib-direction (r17), ailib-list (r32), ailib-string (r29), ailib-tile (r16), airportsplus (r73), basecosts (r22), belarusiantowns (r8), bros (r51), comic-houses (r71), fish (r613), frenchtowns (r6), grfcodec (r821), heqs (r578), indonesiantowns (r41), manindu (r7), metrotrackset (r56), narvs
17:17:36  <Brot6> (r29), newgrf_makefile (r258), nml (r1274), nutracks (r179), ogfx-industries (r4), ogfx-landscape (r41), ogfx-rv (r80), ogfx-trains (r211), ogfx-trees (r42), opengfx (r613), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r45), spanishtowns (r10), swedishrails (r198), swisstowns (r22), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r26), ttrs (r36), worldairlinersset (r671)
17:19:51  *** frosch123 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
17:22:10  <Hirundo> Terkhen: Yes, that was recommended by the newgrf spec
17:22:21  <Terkhen> ok, thanks :)
17:24:32  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2384 (Closed): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @
17:24:33  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2384 (Closed): DevZone compile failed (Ammler) @
17:24:42  <Brot6> firs: update from r1821 to r1843 done -
17:30:53  <Brot6> #openttdcoop Server Patch Pack - Bug #2356 (Closed): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @
17:30:53  <Brot6> #openttdcoop Server Patch Pack - Bug #2356 (Closed): DevZone compile failed (Ammler) @
17:40:42  *** thgergo has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
17:50:16  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 81:2eac59f0819f: - ... (krinn) @
18:01:15  <planetmaker> Terkhen, I didn't yet compile the ogfx-industries patch queue of yours, but it looks and reads quite fine.
18:02:46  <planetmaker> you're right with that early newgrfs probably will break anyway when they don't come with a CTT... but setting property08 of the cargos in the same is done when the defaults are copies... so... yes. I shall compile it when I'm soonish home, but feel free to commit it also before that, if you like
18:02:55  <planetmaker> I'd only change the define names ;-)
18:08:06  <Terkhen> they are already changed to _ENABLED in my local copy :)
18:08:49  <Terkhen> I will wait until you try it; there might be more stupid bugs like the one with banks lurking there and you could find something I missed
18:09:14  <Terkhen> I'll upload a corrected queue once I'm done :)
18:11:14  * Lakie fiddles a bit with his Action4 generation
18:18:30  <Lakie> Mainly so it can write singular and bulk, vehicle action4's I prefer singular, but objects bulk...
18:36:17  <planetmaker> Terkhen:
19:02:15  *** Lakie has quit IRC
19:02:49  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of h7ce0f43a still failed (#2343) -
19:03:02  <Brot6> clientpatches: compile of r22160 still failed (#2347) -
19:06:06  <Brot6> serverpatches: update from r22159 to r22160 done -
19:12:57  <Terkhen> planetmaker: strange
19:13:11  <Terkhen> let me check / reupload
19:17:37  <Terkhen> planetmaker: my guess is that default patch does not like how hg queues handles moved files
19:17:47  <Terkhen> because that file is renamed in 010
19:18:16  <Terkhen> you could use hg qinit && hg qimport -P ...
19:20:15  <planetmaker> is that copied straight from your patches dir?
19:20:29  <Terkhen> it's the first time it gives me problems :)
19:21:03  <Terkhen> from your question I guess it has some way of clean exporting of the queue?
19:22:28  <planetmaker> no, not that I know. It's what I always do :-)
19:22:43  <planetmaker> and no, I never encountered such problem either, I'm puzzled, too
19:23:14  <Terkhen> maybe patch needs some parameter to understand it correctly
19:23:33  <Terkhen> <--- the updated queue, it's still missing some of the suggested corrections
19:30:16  <planetmaker> well, it's the rename in the first patch (010) which is not carried out... hm
19:30:27  <planetmaker> well, fixed manually :-)
19:30:32  <Terkhen> ok :)
19:31:25  <Terkhen> I'll continue with the fixes; for cargos I'm just going to define all of them and at the end use disable_item conditionally
19:31:44  <planetmaker> :-)
19:31:47  <Terkhen> it might make sense to follow this approach with industries too, currently the disable code is not too obvious
19:31:48  <planetmaker> sounds like a good plan
19:32:18  <Terkhen> and probably adding a condition inside a item block does not look nice when converted to action 0
19:33:29  <planetmaker> that'll be an action6. Should be ok
19:35:07  <Terkhen> ok :)
19:36:22  <planetmaker> it's just a matter of "does it look nice in nml?" imho ;-)
19:37:44  <Terkhen> for industries the disable code is into the override macro, is the cargo case with the ternary operation the one who looks confusing, and since it needs a change anyways... :)
19:49:19  <planetmaker> hm. Invalid action0
19:49:46  <planetmaker> when I start openttd with the grf
19:50:10  <planetmaker> dbg: [grf] [ogfx-industries/ogfx-industries.grf:337] FeatureChangeInfo: Unknown property 0xFF of feature 0x0A, disabling
19:50:35  <planetmaker> sounds like an nml error ^ Yexo
19:52:05  <planetmaker> don't you have that, too, Terkhen ?
19:52:31  <Terkhen> it's a bug in openttd, it should work after r22157
19:53:14  <Terkhen> which reminds me, I should set a min required version for the NewGRF
19:54:05  <planetmaker> he, I guess I should update ;-)
19:54:59  <planetmaker> hm... 2 changesets. Maybe it wasn't compiled
20:01:40  <Ammler> Terkhen: color town rating patch is a bit outdated ;-)
20:02:09  <Terkhen> yes, I still don't know how to show the info
20:03:24  <frosch123> the townlabel should be a hyperlink to open a spreadsheet application to show full details
20:04:30  <frosch123> how about tooltips on the map for displaying *some* details
20:05:45  <Ammler> I liked the patch how it wasw
20:05:48  <Ammler> -w
20:06:01  <Terkhen> hmm... the original problem that originated the rating in town label patch was not being able to know how the rating changed while building stuff around a town; having to move the mouse to a given place to show a tooltip is not much different from clicking on the town
20:06:45  <Terkhen> but I like the tooltip idea, that might be the future use for right click we talked about while I was doing the hover tooltips patch
20:07:03  <frosch123> right click is scrolling :)
20:07:09  <Terkhen> meh, true :D
20:07:22  <Terkhen> it's so automatic that I forgot
20:07:42  <frosch123> anyway, isn't shownig the townrating-impact of some command something totally different than showing the current rating?
20:08:16  <frosch123> i.e. the rating-change of an action would more fit next to the cost animation (iirc we already discussed that in the past)
20:08:36  <Terkhen> yes, I tried that
20:08:39  <frosch123> personally i see no use in showing the current rating at the town label, as it is usually not on the screen anyway
20:08:51  <Terkhen> <--- it's even still here
20:09:11  <Terkhen> but with some commands it caused a lot of messages
20:09:29  <Terkhen> IIRC when clearing trees or something like that
20:10:02  <Terkhen> the solution would be storing rating changes somewhere and displaying them in fixed intervals in time, but then I left it as TMW
20:14:06  <planetmaker> hm, replacing desert tiles by snow looks good ;-)
20:14:34  <planetmaker> I accidentially tested that while testing the industries ;-)
20:15:29  <planetmaker>
20:15:29  <Webster> Title: Imagebin - A place to slap up your images. (at
20:16:05  <Terkhen> heh
20:16:29  <Terkhen> I did no checks in regard to desert/snow
20:16:55  <Terkhen> is there a way to completely disable a NewGRF under some condition?
20:16:56  <planetmaker> I just started desert climate... while still having ogfx-landscape active with 'alpine' climate' selected
20:17:08  <planetmaker> yes, you can disable a newgrf
20:17:18  <planetmaker> error level fatal
20:17:30  <Terkhen> oh, okay :)
20:17:44  <Terkhen> I'll see if I can use that for the version check then
20:18:57  <frosch123> a grf is also disabled when you skip the action 8
20:19:32  <frosch123> but usually you want to give some message :) so, what pm says
20:20:03  <Brot6> #openttdcoop Client Patch Pack - Revision 25:6a5f4c60dd38: Remove: Station build gui in trunk (Ammler) @
20:20:04  <Brot6> #openttdcoop Client Patch Pack - Revision 26:3fcec0be9ee2: Update to the new findversion script (Ammler) @
20:20:04  <Brot6> #openttdcoop Client Patch Pack - Revision 27:f1a99f6ea827: Update vehicels in tunnels to r22081 (Ammler) @
20:20:20  <Brot6> #openttdcoop Client Patch Pack - Revision 28:f350d60beab7: Added tag 1.1.0-RC1 for changeset f1a9... (Ammler) @
20:20:20  <planetmaker> if (openttd_version < xxx) { error(FATAL, REQUIRES_OPENTTD, STR_WRONG_VERSION) }
20:20:59  <Brot6> clientpatches: compile of 1.1.0-RC1 still failed (#2345) -
20:27:49  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from 1.0.5 to r done (6 errors) -
20:29:13  <Ammler> oh, is there need to support openttd hg repo without hgsubversion?
20:29:37  <Ammler> hmm, strange
20:29:50  <Ammler> must be something else :-)
20:31:07  <Ammler> it needs better mercurial :-)
20:32:34  <planetmaker> *sigh* george is difficult
20:34:11  <Ammler> :-)
20:36:38  <planetmaker> pm: Instead of using an actual parameter number in your code, could you use / write PARAMID_ERAS instead?
20:36:40  <planetmaker> george: No. I used my own parser and it does not support it. And I see no profit to rewrite this parser, because there would be different GRF compilation algorithm in general.
20:38:14  <planetmaker> the same with the suggested symbolic use of identifiers for stringIDs...
20:38:32  <planetmaker> in order to possibly make use of translations similar like FIRS. Oh well...
20:38:38  <planetmaker> I don't answer today ;-)
20:38:56  <Ammler> tell him to join here, than the others can support you :-)
20:56:33  <planetmaker> Terkhen: <-- the industry view for forcefully enabled chains needs additions
20:56:34  <Webster> Title: Imagebin - A place to slap up your images. (at
20:56:45  <planetmaker> but it works obviously smoothly
20:57:08  <planetmaker> though... does it?
20:57:10  <Terkhen> hmm...
20:57:11  <Terkhen> no
20:57:16  <Terkhen> they should not be appearing in toyland at all
20:57:26  <planetmaker> I activated it via parameter
20:57:32  <Terkhen> strange
20:57:37  <planetmaker> I want a coal chain. So it should work, shouldn't it?
20:57:53  <Terkhen> I guess so
20:58:03  <Terkhen> but I completely ignored toyland in the current implementation
20:58:04  <planetmaker> that's how I understand the parameter. And that's how I would think it should work
20:58:08  <planetmaker> haha :-)
20:58:09  <Terkhen> for me toyland is a different world
20:58:14  <Terkhen> hmm...
20:58:24  <Terkhen> it there is enough space for cargos is just a matter of defining them too
20:58:58  <Terkhen> I don't know what might be causing that screenshot, probably I added check for toyland in some places and forgot them somewhere else
20:59:38  <planetmaker> well. Including toyland IMHO might be nice :-)
20:59:48  <planetmaker> sorry for digging out the corner cases ;-)
21:01:33  <Terkhen> in which cases would you add normal chains to toyland?
21:02:01  <planetmaker> toyland2mars conversion
21:02:33  <Terkhen> meh, true
21:02:40  <planetmaker> :-)
21:02:46  <Terkhen> okay, I'll add them :P
21:02:53  <planetmaker> sorry :-)
21:03:08  <Terkhen> no problem :)
21:04:20  <Yexo> <Terkhen> which reminds me, I should set a min required version for the NewGRF <- if you do manage to trigger that bug in openttd, the properties you set were being skipped
21:04:31  <Yexo> so it's probably not intended code in your grf
21:04:57  <Yexo> talking about: <planetmaker> dbg: [grf] [ogfx-industries/ogfx-industries.grf:337] FeatureChangeInfo: Unknown property 0xFF of feature 0x0A, disabling
21:05:09  <planetmaker> Yexo: yes, updating openttd was what was required
21:05:37  <Yexo> ^^ I was just saying that the grf is probably doing something that was not intended
21:05:55  <Yexo> the bug only occurs when openttd is _skipping_ the properties, not when _parsing_ them
21:06:04  <Yexo> it skips them because prop 08 (substitute) was not yet set
21:07:41  <Terkhen> it was not set on the test case I uploaded (as I tried to get the minimal code to trigger the problem), but substitute is the first property being set on my code... let me check it
21:12:23  <Terkhen> hmm... right
21:12:38  <Terkhen> I shouldn't be setting any properties after setting substitute to 0xFF either, I guess
21:13:03  <Yexo> you shouldn't set substitute to 0xFF at all, just the new disable_item() function for that
21:18:17  <Terkhen> hmmm... okay
21:19:44  <Yexo> if you want to conditionally enable the item, use: item(...) { if (ENABLE_XYZ) { property { substitute: 3; } } property { .....} }
21:20:00  <Yexo> merging the second property block inside the first one is optional
21:26:59  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r to r done (6 errors) -
21:30:27  <Terkhen> Yexo: thanks, I will try that :)
21:40:07  <Brot6> #openttdcoop Client Patch Pack - Revision 29:d9610388f776: Added tag 1.1.0-RC1 for changeset b12d... (Ammler) @
21:55:55  <Brot6> #openttdcoop Client Patch Pack - Bug #2385 (New): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @
22:19:40  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
22:30:39  <Brot6> clientpatches: compile of 1.1.0-RC1 still failed (#2385) -
22:56:02  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/nsbset registered in Redmine with url /home/hg/nsbset
22:56:02  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/nsbset created
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