Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 22nd April 2011:
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05:35:01  <Rubidium> SmatZ: rail tiles can!
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07:39:59  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 639:b1f9cd460edd: Fix: Missing animation for headstocks of gold mine (planetmaker) @
07:44:39  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 640:91c4a53c2774: Doc: Update copyright and add contact information (planetmaker) @
08:27:12  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Industries - Revision 27:5a493f097e22: Add: Ground tile aware gold mine tiles (planetmaker) @
08:27:36  <planetmaker> ^ Terkhen, it was a good idea to first look at other industries, too :-)
08:33:14  <Terkhen> :)
08:34:26  <Terkhen> how many are missing?
08:35:00  <planetmaker> other industries? Many, I guess. This is only one other. Diamonds at least. Probably copper
08:35:27  <planetmaker> And one could beautify farms by choosing a real ground tile for a few tiles instead of everything muddy ;-)
08:36:16  <planetmaker> but I might now start with re-writing these two as templates which can be re-used.
08:36:23  <planetmaker> I think I now know what to look for
08:36:52  <Terkhen> ok :)
08:36:54  <planetmaker> Also the oil wells could be re-written
08:37:24  <planetmaker> and get a different ground tile which makes them better ground tile aware (esp. grid / no grid)
08:51:46  <planetmaker> <-- quite acceptable :-)
08:56:58  <Terkhen> indeed :)
08:57:25  <Terkhen> someone will surely complain that the change from desert to jungle is not gradual :P
09:00:41  <planetmaker> yes... but IMHO all these are again an argument for "draw the ground tile as you would without anything else and then put my stuff on it"
09:00:51  <planetmaker> It would also solve the partial snow issue
09:00:55  <planetmaker> where it is much more visible
09:03:37  <Terkhen> I guess that the current system forces you to define a ground sprite
09:03:59  <planetmaker> yes
09:04:20  <planetmaker> well. you can go without iirc. But you'll run into very nice glitches
09:04:40  <Terkhen> I wonder why isn't there a special value for "use default ground sprite for this tile"
09:06:24  <planetmaker> I think also frosch's extended layouts doesn't address that
09:41:43  <Terkhen> planetmaker:
09:47:27  <planetmaker> hm, so we want really three settings for that?
09:48:02  <planetmaker> but I guess we want :-)
09:50:34  <Terkhen> personally I would just want all of them enabled all the time :P
09:51:28  <Terkhen> we can also remove the "oil wells appear in temperate setting" and add another option to the oil chain "Oil wells, oil rig, oil refinery, oil wells do not appear normally"
09:51:40  <Terkhen> which would be the default option for temperate
09:52:38  <planetmaker> yes, I'd enable all, too
09:53:22  <planetmaker> That's why I wondered whether it could be summarized to one switch which is like "OpenTTD default behaviour" vs "No restrictions"
09:53:43  <Terkhen> I like that :)
09:53:55  <planetmaker> or rather "no pointless restrictions". Which would be "allow always oil wells, allow refineries everywhere, allow close all industries
09:54:00  <planetmaker> maybe more. Dunno
09:54:24  <Terkhen> IMO not closing all industries does not even deserve a setting
09:54:32  <planetmaker> refinery water distance is nice. And ^ yes
09:54:34  <Terkhen> it is stupid, and in long games the map gets cluttered with banks, power plants and so on
09:55:05  <Terkhen> hmm... what about "Disable oil chain restrictions"?
09:55:16  <Terkhen> that would take care of oil wells restrictions and the oil rig >1960 restriction
09:55:23  <planetmaker> sounds fine
09:55:26  <Terkhen> although... that restriction makes more sense than the oil wells one
09:55:30  <planetmaker> description could then tell what is is
09:55:59  <planetmaker> hm, oil rigs > 1960... makes sense
09:56:30  <Terkhen> better to give oil rigs their own setting then
09:56:32  <planetmaker> just "oil well restrictions"
09:56:38  <planetmaker> yep
09:56:43  <Terkhen> ok :)
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11:38:11  <Terkhen> planetmaker:
11:38:35  <Terkhen> we will need to reorganize the parameters in the future
12:10:24  <planetmaker> Terkhen: the #define blubber param[x] is not needed
12:10:31  <planetmaker> you can re-use the name directly as defined above
12:11:17  <Terkhen> I know, but param[5] is not really descriptive later at the industry code
12:11:31  <Terkhen> oh, sorry, I misread you :)
12:11:51  <Terkhen> hmm... then enable_conditions requires a cleanup
12:12:31  <planetmaker> Hm, maybe. But maybe the parameters should then rather read "...enable". It makes for easier logic
12:12:49  <planetmaker> though... nvm
12:22:46  <Terkhen> hmm... you mean the enable_condition parameters or the new ones at the patch queue?
12:33:12  <Hirundo> maybe nml should allow "param foo = 12;"
14:14:01  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Industries - Revision 28:bbaf94d71818: Feature: Parameter for disabling Oil Wells buildi... (Terkhen) @
14:14:01  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Industries - Revision 29:a720c8d0df15: Feature: Parameter for disabling Oil Rig building... (Terkhen) @
14:20:10  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Industries - Revision 30:ee57f3e8701f: Cleanup: Remove unneeded defines. (Terkhen) @
14:20:44  <planetmaker> nice :-)
14:21:09  <Terkhen> :)
14:21:54  <Terkhen> next in my todo list is either station names or more customizable chains
14:22:02  <Terkhen> both of them are long and boring :P
14:22:09  <planetmaker> :-D
14:25:17  <Terkhen> hmm...
14:25:37  <Terkhen> there are five potential cargos for the factory: wood, steel, grain, livestock and rubber
14:25:56  <Terkhen> to reach a problematic state, you need to have at least four cargos assigned to the factory
14:26:13  <Terkhen> but to get to that point, you need to add grain / livestock
14:26:41  <Terkhen> so it could be possible to reduce all problematic states to: reassign grain and / or livestock to the food processing plant
14:27:02  <Terkhen> meh, I forgot copper ore
14:52:58  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: make a new factory ;)
14:53:03  <andythenorth_> or randomise cargos (annoying)
14:53:27  <andythenorth_> how much are you being faithful to original industry?
15:05:31  <planetmaker> it should be somewhat faithful
15:06:03  <planetmaker> the question "how much is needed and desired"
15:10:55  <andythenorth_> the factory cargo issue is a tricky one
15:10:58  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1974:a925ca443741: Change: adjust structure of Textil Mi... (andythenorth) @
15:11:18  <andythenorth_> you don't want to accidentally invent new a whole industry set ;)
15:11:22  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: Terkhen
15:11:24  <andythenorth_> one idea
15:11:33  <andythenorth_> tropic factory is different in appearance to temperate
15:11:40  <andythenorth_> so it might be valid to have two kinds of factory
15:24:25  <Terkhen> sorry, I was not here :)
15:24:46  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: I thought that the difference was only of layouts
15:26:51  <andythenorth_> Terkhen: it is yes
15:26:59  <andythenorth_> the factory is a 2x2 module
15:27:04  <andythenorth_> tropic uses 2 of them
15:27:08  <andythenorth_> temperate uses 3
15:27:44  <andythenorth_> it's a subtle difference, but if you wanted to try the 'two types of factory' idea you could vary the layout in that way
15:28:13  <Terkhen> hmm... I was thinking on moving some cargos to other industries in these cases
15:28:27  <Terkhen> wood -> sawmill and grain/livestock -> food processing plant
15:29:14  <Terkhen> in the worst case, after doing these movements, only rubber, copper ore and steel remain assigned to the factory
15:29:38  <andythenorth_> that is a better solution
15:29:41  <Terkhen> the resulting chain of if/else blocks will look like a nightmare, though
15:31:29  <andythenorth_> that's the life of a coder
15:31:34  <Terkhen> :P
15:33:14  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1975:1593ca9a44d3: Fix: remove unwanted pixels from Text... (andythenorth) @
16:08:01  <Yexo> <Hirundo> maybe nml should allow "param foo = 12;" <- I've wanted that for a long time :)
16:08:50  <Hirundo> me too, though as certain issue called "Portal 2" has priority these days
16:24:55  <Yexo> Hirundo: for that syntax, should "foo" get a parameter number between 64 and 127 or a non-used one in the range 0..63?
16:25:54  <Yexo> or should it make the "param[3]" syntax completely obsolete?
16:33:16  <Terkhen> heh, I lost my complete tuesday because of that same issue :P
16:33:28  <Hirundo> Since we have param[param[2]], we can''t easily decide what is used
16:35:30  <Hirundo> So I think we should use the 64..127 range and emit a depreciation warning when param[x] is used, so we can use all params later
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16:40:37  <Yexo> that's what I figured out too :)
16:40:39  <Yexo> glad we agree
16:45:28  <planetmaker> hm, that sounds like a nice change
16:59:19  <Hirundo> Is the param[param[x]] syntax in use anywhere?
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17:19:04  <Brot6> firs: update from r1972 to r1975 done -
17:20:08  <Brot6> grfpack: update from r278 to r279 done -
17:20:30  <Brot6> ogfx-industries: update from r26 to r30 done -
17:20:49  <Terkhen> I don't remember seeing that syntax in use
17:21:32  <Brot6> opengfx: update from r638 to r640 done -
17:21:39  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r750), 32bpp-extra (r40), ai-admiralai (r75), ai-aroai (r32), ailib-common (r21), ailib-direction (r17), ailib-list (r32), ailib-string (r29), ailib-tile (r16), airportsplus (r73), basecosts (r25), belarusiantowns (r8), bros (r52), chips (r136), comic-houses (r71), fish (r617), frenchtowns (r6), german-townnames (r30), grfcodec (r828), heqs (r604), indonesiantowns (r41),
17:21:39  <Brot6> manindu (r7), metrotrackset (r56), narvs (r37), newgrf_makefile (r266), nml (r1313), nutracks (r185), ogfx-landscape (r60), ogfx-rv (r80), ogfx-trains (r237), ogfx-trees (r42), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r49), spanishtowns (r10), swedishrails (r198), swisstowns (r22), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r26), ttrs (r36), worldairlinersset (r671)
17:28:46  <planetmaker> I'm not sure whether it's used
17:39:07  <Hirundo> We could code something like arrays to provide such functionality, but IMO that's not worth the effort if it's not used anywhere
18:24:23  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 1976:4e2ea2739f50: Fix: one layout had broken graphics f... (andythenorth) @
18:45:43  <Terkhen> <--- I hope this is not very confusing
18:46:07  <Terkhen> it is missing large chunks of code at the industries to actually set the correct accepted cargos
18:46:13  <Terkhen> but first I want to be sure that the underlying logic is correct
18:50:07  <Terkhen> I plan to commit the logic first (if it is correct it should not change behaviour at all), and then start adding parameters for each chain
18:51:34  <planetmaker> Terkhen: don't use param >= 63
18:51:55  <Terkhen> hmm... okay, but nml does not complain when I compile
18:52:49  <planetmaker> yep, but it will fail horribly
18:53:03  <Terkhen> ok :P
18:53:10  <Terkhen> I'll start with 50
18:53:18  <planetmaker> actually 63 is still ok.
18:54:42  <Terkhen> basically, if there are more than 3 cargos for the factory, I move cargos until the number is 3 or less
18:55:16  <planetmaker> hm... what about an option to enable "tropical wood chain"?
18:55:34  <planetmaker> or rather a parameter which selects the wood chain in use. And not make that climate-dependent?
18:56:13  <planetmaker> i.e. to abstract a bit more: parameter -> chain -> industries. instead of parameter -> industries
18:57:23  <Terkhen> the wood chain will have parameters for that, yes
18:57:33  <Terkhen> but I prefer to implement the logic (without parameters) first
18:57:51  <Terkhen> otherwise doing this in small steps becomes too complicated
18:58:20  <Terkhen> my plan for the wood chain are two parameters
18:58:35  <Terkhen> one for determining the producing industry and another one for determining the accepting industry
18:58:50  <Terkhen> hmmm... not sure if tropical sawmill -> sawmill makes much sense, though
19:01:33  <planetmaker> well. My argument is: WOOD_ACCEPTED_BY_FACTORY = (climate == CLIMATE_TROPIC) --> WOOD_TROPICAL_CHAIN
19:02:36  <Terkhen> do you mean to rename it or to change the value?
19:04:10  <Terkhen> that's what I mentioned earlier: right now the values are defined by climate
19:04:25  <Terkhen> later, when the parameter for the wood chain is introduced, the value for WOOD_ACCEPTED_BY_FACTORY will be changed
19:04:26  <planetmaker> TROPICAL_WOOD_CHAIN_ENABLED = (climate == CLIMATE_TROPICAL)
19:04:34  <planetmaker> ah, ok. sorry :-)
19:04:42  <Terkhen> otherwise, I would need to code all parameters at once
19:04:56  <Terkhen> right now it's like all parameters were set to "default by climate"
19:06:44  <planetmaker> yeah, sorry, didn't get you meant it this way
19:07:19  <Terkhen> no problem :)
19:22:43  <planetmaker> +	FOOD_PROCESSING_PLANT_ENABLED = true;
19:22:44  <planetmaker> looks wrong. Especially as GRAIN_LIVESTOCK_ACCEPTED_BY_FACTORY will always be false
19:22:53  <planetmaker> you set it to false previously if it was true before
19:23:40  <Terkhen> sorry, it was meant to be "if (FRUIT_ENABLED || ((GRAIN_ENABLED || LIVESTOCK_ENABLED) && !GRAIN_LIVESTOCK_ACCEPTED_BY_FACTORY)) {"
19:25:45  <planetmaker> hm, yes. You'll need the same for sawmill as you need for food plant
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19:27:15  <Terkhen> the sawmill will be enabled/disabled directly via parameters, the food plant disables itself if no cargos are set to it
19:27:24  <Terkhen> the sawmill will use that future parameter
19:27:53  <Terkhen> sorry, the logic is quite confusing and I don't know how to explain it clearly in english :P
19:28:50  <planetmaker> :-) but what do you do with wood, if factory can't accept it, but should?
19:40:45  <Yexo> Hirundo: did you start work already on #2546?
19:40:45  <Brot6> Yexo: Hirundo: #2546 is "NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2546: allow modification of ttdsprite# in a layout via parameter - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
19:42:50  <Terkhen> planetmaker: then the sawmill will be forcibly activated, even if the setting is not enabled, and a warning will appear
19:43:26  <Terkhen> the same will happen with grain and livestock being "moved" to the food processing plant, as it is not guaranteed that food will be accepted (in temperate for example)
19:46:50  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #2550 (Closed): internal error when referenced string for error(...) d... (planetmaker) @
19:46:50  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1314:173c44d468be: Fix #2550: internal error when message string ... (yexo) @
19:46:50  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #2550 (Closed): internal error when referenced string for error(...) d... (yexo) @
19:51:16  <Yexo> planetmaker: it's not immediately  clear what "=0" means
19:51:18  <Yexo>
19:52:38  <planetmaker> hm, I guess you're right. It should be "must be zero"
19:53:02  <Yexo> ah, ok :)
19:53:35  <Yexo> wrt your question: properties that are not available can be set but their value is ignored
20:10:55  <Terkhen> param[50] = false; <--- false and False are not recognized; what is the right way to do this assignment?
20:11:33  <Yexo> =0
20:11:52  <Yexo> if(x) is the same as if (x!=0)
20:12:16  <Terkhen> hmm... okay
20:12:54  <Yexo> the problem of defining true and false in nml is that you get tricky cases like (3 == true) <- what should be the result of that?
20:13:22  <Yexo> convert to int first-> (3 == 1) => false, convert to bool first-> (true == true) => true
20:14:07  <Terkhen> I see, it is not trivial :)
20:15:23  <Yexo> internally nml does have a bool type, but that's just an integer forced to 0..1 values
20:33:18  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1315:a1835de59905: Feature: check if important string codes of tr... (yexo) @
20:57:31  <Yexo> planetmaker: I have a patch that implements #2546
20:57:31  <Brot6> Yexo: planetmaker: #2546 is "NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2546: allow modification of ttdsprite# in a layout via parameter - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
20:57:50  <Yexo> what should the patch you uploaded there for ogfx+industries do exactly?
20:57:57  <Yexo> ie how do I make sure my patch works?
20:58:37  <planetmaker> I attached a diff which should produce a working grf
20:58:54  <planetmaker> but you could also point me to your patch ;-)
20:59:22  <Yexo> define "working" :)
20:59:22  <planetmaker> hm... ok, I see. The diff is incomplete :S
20:59:50  <Yexo>
21:00:32  <Yexo> also it doesn't apply to ogfx-industries head
21:00:44  <planetmaker> nope. That's why I wrote r18 ;-)
21:02:06  <Yexo> r18 doesn't compile with the given patch applied
21:02:17  <Yexo> make: *** No rule to make target `ogfx-industries.src.dep', needed by `ogfx-industries.nml'.  Stop.
21:02:28  <Yexo> due to: <stdin>:3:34: fatal error: src/compatibility.pnml: No such file or directory
21:02:31  <planetmaker> yes, it's missing ^
21:04:26  <planetmaker> <-- missing file. Will need renaming
21:05:15  <planetmaker> uncommenting the two line which then actually test the patch
21:05:17  <Yexo> with that file it compiles
21:06:05  <Yexo> please walk me through it, which two lines?
21:06:26  <planetmaker>  // define tree_base_sprite param[30] and the following
21:06:41  <Yexo> ah :)
21:06:45  <planetmaker> comment out the 3rd
21:07:10  <Yexo> and what should the in-game effect be?
21:07:26  <planetmaker> oh. actually. And you can then comment in... all the rest, the ifs...
21:07:58  <planetmaker> there's no user-parameter, yet. But changing the defined default_tree_base changes the forest tree
21:08:10  <planetmaker> some suggested values are in the defines
21:08:17  <planetmaker> which could look nice
21:09:50  <Yexo> well, I've succesfully determined that my patch doesn't work :p
21:10:01  <planetmaker> :-)
21:10:22  <planetmaker> sorry that I missed the actual crucial part in the diff :-)
21:10:32  <planetmaker> hg add is a ... often skipped step :-P
21:11:09  <Yexo> hmm, uncommenting "tree_base_sprite = default_tree_base;" too was also a crucial step :p
21:11:30  <planetmaker> hm, meh
21:12:36  <Yexo> nvm my earlier comment, it works :)
21:13:15  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1316:cfec00d29de8: Feature #2546: allow non-constant ttdsprite in... (yexo) @
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21:16:21  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2546 (Closed): allow modification of ttdsprite# in a layo... (planetmaker) @
21:16:21  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2546 (Closed): allow modification of ttdsprite# in a layo... (yexo) @
21:17:59  <planetmaker> hm, how does the custom error work: 	error(FATAL, string(STR_ERR_INCOMPATIBLE_NEWGRF), "FIRS"); ?
21:18:22  <planetmaker> this error messages here gives me ingame " is incompatible with ."
21:18:30  <planetmaker> which is... not quite what I hoped for
21:18:39  <Yexo> what is the value of STR_ERR_INCOMPATIBLE_NEWGRF ?
21:18:53  <planetmaker> {STRING} is incompatible with {STRING}.
21:21:12  <Yexo> it works fine here in a small test grf
21:21:26  <Yexo> it displays "test.grf is incompatible with FIRS."
21:21:35  <planetmaker> hm, I need to check then
21:22:18  <Yexo> ah, the red box displays the wrong message
21:22:23  <Yexo> the full message is in the newgrf window
21:22:28  <Yexo> so openttd bug, probably my fault
21:22:42  <planetmaker> oh :-) I thought it was NML.
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21:42:53  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Industries - Revision 31:fa9bc67c33f5: Feature: Compatibility checks for several NewGRFs... (planetmaker) @
21:43:31  <planetmaker> ^ now there's a regression test for the parametrized ttdsprite ;-)
21:49:11  <Yexo> planetmaker: after a lot of recompiling I can't trigger that bug anymore
21:49:31  <Yexo> if you can still reproduce the  " is incompatible with ." bug please open a bug at fs so I don't forget to look at it
21:51:20  <planetmaker> hm... I get it everytime. You have with ogfx+industries head now a test case
21:51:48  <planetmaker> actually... once with the agricultural vector of ECS I even got "Food processing plant is incompatible with ."
21:52:04  <planetmaker> dbg: [grf] Unknown StringID 0xFFFF remapped to STR_EMPTY. Please open a Feature Request if you need it <-- console
22:00:27  <Yexo> that is even reproducible in 1.1.0 :(
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