Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 17th July 2011:
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00:14:23  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
00:15:33  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Patch #2860: Shorter standard length, added templates (oberhuemer) @
00:50:30  *** Lakie has quit IRC
01:55:04  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 42:ba1b50204b04: add ID# to tracking table. purpose is to e... (Eddi) @
01:55:04  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 43:d06a62a38575: use ID# in (Eddi) @
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02:24:04  <Brot6> Nutracks - Feature #2711: New fence sprites (oberhuemer) @
02:25:11  <Brot6> Nutracks - Feature #2711: New fence sprites (oberhuemer) @
02:28:47  <Brot6> Nutracks - Feature #2716: Add translations (oberhuemer) @
02:36:40  <Brot6> Nutracks - Feature #2712: New depot sprites (oberhuemer) @
02:40:44  <Brot6> Nutracks - Feature #2714: Add more parameter options (oberhuemer) @
02:42:51  <Brot6> Nutracks - Feature #2658: Finescale and narrow gauge tracks (oberhuemer) @
02:47:11  <Brot6> Nutracks - Bug #2715: Lighten edges of ballast (oberhuemer) @
02:49:29  <Brot6> Nutracks - Code Review #2861 (New): Conversion to NML (oberhuemer) @
03:00:04  <Brot6> Nutracks - Bug #2862 (New): "Fatal error: Attempt to use invalid ID" (oberhuemer) @
03:02:29  <Brot6> Nutracks - Bug #2862: "Fatal error: Attempt to use invalid ID" (oberhuemer) @
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12:04:26  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Revision 50:dda828b54123: Fix: vehicle properties (closes #2857) (foobar) @
12:04:26  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Feature #2857 (Closed): update vehicle properties (foobar) @
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12:18:00  <planetmaker> hm... is build on push somewhat broken, Ammler?
12:19:17  <planetmaker> I expected for sub-landscape to have a build for each push
12:19:30  <planetmaker> and there's also a .devzone/build/push
12:25:25  <Ammler> according to the test repo, it works
12:26:04  <Ammler> planetmaker: you need something to push to trigger it :-P
12:26:39  <planetmaker> I pushed a new commit
12:26:45  <planetmaker> with an updated .hgsub file
12:27:05  <Ammler> when?
12:27:38  <planetmaker> Datum:           Sun Jul 17 14:13:17 2011 +0200  <-- a bit later
12:28:37  <planetmaker>
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12:28:53  <planetmaker> hi JVassie
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12:30:53  <JVassie> hi planetmaker
12:34:00  <Ammler> planetmaker: there was an issue, if releases and push is enabled and releases failed
12:35:40  <Ammler>
12:36:21  <Ammler> I need to investigate, why it doesn't announce errors for non devzone projects
12:36:34  <planetmaker> eh? Non-devzone?
12:37:05  <planetmaker> hm... interesting. I looked actually at the bundles server.
12:37:10  <planetmaker> Maybe I was just too impatient
12:37:37  <planetmaker> oh... no. I looked at 'nightly'
12:37:43  <planetmaker> and there of course nothing happened
12:37:57  <planetmaker> IMHO it also shouldn't have created a new issue as it's the same old one as in 'nightlies'
12:38:32  <Ammler> hehe :-P
12:40:54  <Ammler> oh, .hgsub might again work with relative repos
13:06:57  <planetmaker> FooBar: wrt purchase and running costs of the DutchTramSet I'd like to urge you to consider making the default match default vehicles
13:07:06  <planetmaker> and just add a parameter which allows adjustment
13:07:41  <planetmaker> simple reason: people use more than one vehicle set. And if everyone "adjusts" it to "sensible" values it is already now for that very reason a very big mess
13:07:55  <planetmaker> And one cannot configure a nice game where vehicle prices are even somewhat balanced against eachother
13:08:07  <planetmaker> Leave balancing of costs to a base costs grf
13:08:23  <planetmaker> or make it at least a parameter.
13:08:41  <FooBar> tried that, but then I would need to change the base cost.
13:08:49  <planetmaker> don't change them
13:09:02  <FooBar> 255 isn't high enough to balance with the default vehicles
13:09:09  <planetmaker> without changing the base costs it's easy to balance against default vehicles
13:09:16  <planetmaker> eh?
13:09:20  <planetmaker> what do you consider balance then?
13:09:39  <planetmaker> well, changing the base costs doesn't hurt, if it's needed
13:09:45  <planetmaker> it's grf-local change anyway
13:10:01  <planetmaker> just don't use your custom idea of what price level is fine.
13:10:06  <FooBar> well, the most expensive vehicle now has a value close to 255
13:10:08  <planetmaker> Level it wrt the vanilla openttd rvs
13:10:37  <FooBar> but that's still too little really
13:10:46  <planetmaker> then increase base costs
13:10:58  <planetmaker> you only change your own grf. No one else is influenced
13:11:21  <FooBar> ok, that's what I tried to avoid wrt to the base cost grf
13:11:26  <planetmaker> but what price levels do you need that they're comparable to a bus?!
13:11:43  <planetmaker> no, changes with a base cost grf jsut add up
13:11:48  <planetmaker> *just
13:12:21  <planetmaker> IMHO the only important thing is: make it match the MK whatever busses of OpenTTD. By base costs and costs settings
13:12:32  <FooBar> so if I set the base cost 1 lever higher, and the base cost grf also sets it 1 level higher, the result is 2 levels higher for my grf?
13:12:39  <planetmaker> add - if desired - a switch to change general price levels.
13:12:44  <planetmaker> yes, it does
13:12:53  <FooBar> ah, I didn't know
13:13:02  <planetmaker> that's the purpose of base costs grf ;-)
13:13:03  <FooBar> then changing the base cost is no problem
13:13:10  <planetmaker> change general price levels additionally to grfs
13:13:16  <planetmaker> yup, it isn't.
13:13:18  <Ammler> basecost grf does not have influence on vehicle set, does it?
13:13:32  <planetmaker> Just don't change the base costs of features you don't define ;-)
13:14:00  <FooBar> no, only road vehicle purchase and running cost
13:14:03  <planetmaker> Ammler: well, they do. They change (additionally) the base costs of what a vehicle set operates on
13:14:18  <planetmaker> I thought you knew, Ammler, how they work ;-)
13:14:28  <FooBar> but then there's no problem
13:14:37  <Ammler> hmm, is that a revert of the "chained basecosts" feature?
13:15:01  <Ammler> I would have expected override properity
13:15:21  <FooBar> I also expected override, therefore I didn't want to change base cost
13:16:00  <FooBar> And that would limit my running cost to 1195 GBP, where the original vehicle is already 1125 GBP
13:16:24  <planetmaker> FooBar: but isn't it sensible to keep within the range of the originals there, too?
13:16:29  <planetmaker> On both accounts, purchase and running?
13:17:10  <planetmaker> or why would I use a tram if the bus does the same for half the costs?
13:17:16  <FooBar> Oh, I agree with keeping with the original vehicles, just tought that wouldn't work properly with the base cost grf if I were to change base costs as well
13:17:32  <Ammler> for me it doesn't make sense if base costs grf is able to adjust vehicle set without override, but well.
13:17:51  <Brot6> sub-landscape: update from  to r69 done (109 warnings) -
13:17:52  <planetmaker> Ammler: no, that's the purpose... a _base costs_ adjusts it for all
13:17:59  <FooBar> by the way, trams are too cheap right now :)
13:18:03  <planetmaker> a vehicle grf which defines base costs only changes it for itself
13:18:35  <Ammler> planetmaker: yes, I thought frosch fixed that once
13:18:40  <planetmaker> thus costs = base_costs + grf-specific_cost
13:18:46  <planetmaker> which is the whole fix
13:18:55  <planetmaker> that's definitely not a bug this way
13:19:08  <planetmaker> as only this way you can freely assign costs levels as needed
13:19:17  <planetmaker> while still allowing a global balance
13:19:44  <Ammler> how do you know, it is grf speficific or base cost?
13:20:34  <planetmaker> base costs grfs may define no feature
13:20:48  <planetmaker> if you define a vehicle, it's not a base costs grf
13:21:28  <planetmaker> actually very easy: base costs define base costs but nothing else. Otherwise it won't be global base costs but local ones
13:25:04  <Ammler> planetmaker: yes, but how does openttd detect, if it is a vehicle set or base set, I am very confused
13:25:15  <Ammler> I thought, basecosts of vehicle set should not interfer anymore
13:25:27  <planetmaker> Ammler: missing action0 for other the other features
13:25:52  <planetmaker> and yes, they don't interfere. A vehicle newgrf cannot change the costs of another vehicle grf
13:26:15  <Ammler> it can, by setting base costs, can't it?
13:26:47  <planetmaker> no
13:26:57  <planetmaker> at least no the vehicle-related base costs
13:27:21  <planetmaker> a vehicle set which defines vehicle base costs changes only its own prices with that
13:27:30  <Ammler> so why is it bad to set basecosts in a vehilce set then?
13:27:34  <planetmaker> if it redefined terraforming, that'd still apply, though
13:27:41  <planetmaker> Ammler: it's not bad
13:28:30  <planetmaker> Ammler: it's only 'bad' as it offsets costs wrt default vehicles. But as foobar pointed out it might be needed for certain reasons anyway, even when the vehicles are balanced wrt default vehicles
13:29:53  <Ammler> @topic remove -1
13:29:57  <Ammler> @services op
13:29:57  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Webster
13:29:59  <Ammler> @topic remove -1
13:30:00  *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on | Downloads log: | Sandbox passwords are the same as the usernames | HGWeb & paste Backend changed to Gunicorn, please report issues"
13:30:01  <Ammler> @topic remove -1
13:30:01  *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on | Downloads log: | Sandbox passwords are the same as the usernames"
13:30:15  <planetmaker> Ammler: my concern here, today was only the global cost balance
13:30:18  <FooBar> planetmaker: just checked and the base costs work like you say, so then there's no problem for me to balance against original vehicles
13:30:32  <planetmaker> Vehicle grfs can still all set totally different costs - even when they don't influence other vehicle newgrfs
13:30:42  <planetmaker> FooBar: sweet :-)
13:30:45  * planetmaker hugs FooBar
13:30:54  <FooBar> if I set x2 in my grf and x2 in base cost mod, the result is x4
13:31:03  <Ammler> planetmaker: I didn't know openttd is able to detect, if a grf base costs is for just this grf or global
13:31:15  <planetmaker> because I'm more and more concerned about vehicle sets being off by quite some factors which makes it quite difficult to design a nice game when there's a large discrepancy
13:32:41  <Ammler> this sounds very hackish
13:33:11  <Ammler> I assumed, vehicle basecosts simply don't have affect to other grfs without override
13:33:15  <planetmaker> Ammler: it rather works this way: if newgrf has action0 for featureX: --> base costs goes to local cost setting. Otherwise, after parsing of newgrf is complete: add change to global setting.
13:33:35  <planetmaker> how is this hackish?
13:34:44  <planetmaker> it's simply: vehicle newgrfs don't change other vehicle newgrfs costs
13:34:58  <FooBar> I think this is the only way for sets to have a local base cost to balance against default while allowing to overall increase or decrease costs
13:35:06  <planetmaker> yep, exactly
13:35:47  <planetmaker> like it totally makes sense to change the grf-local vehicle base costs for a horse-vehicle grf or the year 3000 rocket train grf
13:40:47  <Ammler> planetmaker: it is not hackish from sight of openttd code
13:40:58  <Ammler> just very complicated for grf author
13:41:10  <planetmaker> how?
13:41:17  <planetmaker> what's easier?
13:41:49  <planetmaker> vehicles: I define my relative cost levels
13:41:55  <Ammler> like I said and I thought it worked once that way
13:41:58  <planetmaker> base costs: I define global cost balance
13:42:12  <planetmaker> it once worked that every newgrf changed global base costs no matter what
13:42:13  <Ammler> that's fine
13:42:25  <Ammler> just "how it detects" base costs is a bit confusing
13:42:36  <planetmaker> how's that confusing?
13:42:59  <Brot6> sub-landscape: update from r69 to r70 done -
13:43:03  <Ammler> well, I guess, I would not be able to code a local costs grf
13:43:15  <planetmaker> what's a "local costs grf"?
13:43:27  <Ammler> a vehilce set with base costs just for this grf
13:43:39  <planetmaker> there's no difference in coding
13:43:53  <planetmaker> you automatically define local base costs as soon as you define a vehicle
13:44:16  <Ammler> ah ok
13:45:25  <planetmaker> the only limitation is: you can now never define local AND global base costs within the same grf
13:45:34  <planetmaker> something which shouldn't be done anyway ;-)
13:45:37  <Ammler> that is fine
13:45:46  <Ammler> that was never possible, afaik
13:45:58  <planetmaker> exactly
13:48:30  <Ammler> how do you define the revision of subrepo?
13:48:48  <Ammler> which then is in .hgsubstate
13:51:24  <planetmaker> afaik the version you checked out is used
13:51:46  <planetmaker> there's afaik also no automatic update
13:51:48  <Ammler> so you checkout with simply hg up there?
13:51:51  <planetmaker> yup
13:52:45  <planetmaker> at least it seems to work for sub-landscape
14:02:44  <planetmaker> hm, so if properly used, it seems to work
14:03:24  <Ammler> planetmaker: create a release
14:03:36  <Ammler> (source bundle)
14:03:49  <planetmaker> though... look at the error log of r70
14:04:08  <planetmaker> that's quite ugly
14:05:22  <planetmaker> looks like a genuine bug in hg or a module thereof
14:05:47  <planetmaker> probably subrepo
14:06:44  <planetmaker> hm... or is it just missing the subrepository extension being enabled?
14:10:42  <Ammler> there is a extension needed?
14:16:46  <FooBar> think I've found a nice balance for the trams now: more expensive than buses to purchase, but cheaper to run
14:17:21  <planetmaker> Ammler: looking through the docs it doesn't seem so. My initial assumption that one might be needed is seemingly wrong
14:21:15  <planetmaker> any idea about that hg error, Ammler?
14:21:25  <planetmaker> It seems to have no obvious detrimental effect...
14:21:34  <planetmaker> which is suspicious to me ;-)
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14:23:25  <Ammler> planetmaker: could you again clone sub-landscape to the server
14:23:36  <Ammler> I removed it by accident :-P
14:24:15  <planetmaker> eh?
14:25:23  <Ammler> never mind
14:25:25  <Ammler> restored
14:27:20  <planetmaker> anyway... pushed my repo state
14:27:22  <Ammler> extension hgsubversion seems not working with subrepos
14:27:56  <planetmaker> hm. do we need that one?
14:28:03  <Ammler> already disabled
14:30:09  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Revision 51:1e928b009703: Change: double purchase and running base cost (foobar) @
14:30:10  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Revision 52:51c174b1998f: Fix (r50): balance costs against default vehicles (foobar) @
14:30:46  <planetmaker> let's see what then the output of a new compile run is :-)
14:30:51  <Brot6> sub-landscape: update from r70 to r71 done -
14:32:46  <Ammler> hmm, enable grf2html ?
14:33:15  <planetmaker> enable in what sense? shouldn't it automatically?
14:34:02  <planetmaker> I mean... that error should not be there, if it's not enabled
14:34:57  <Ammler> it is my question, shall I enable grf2html or silence the error, what you prefer
14:36:51  <planetmaker> Well, I think grf2html may be nice
14:37:06  <planetmaker> But it should not be something one should need to care about when using devzone build service
14:37:20  <planetmaker> either it should be on (and work) or off (and not generate an error)
14:38:26  <Ammler> planetmaker: yes, I ask you
14:38:30  <Ammler> what do you want
14:38:39  <planetmaker> I'd like it enabled
14:38:43  <Ammler> ok :-)
14:38:47  <planetmaker> as it's a quick way to see sprites :-)
14:39:00  <Ammler> it is not enabled for pushes
14:39:20  <planetmaker> well. Just make it default for every build and don't make distinctions
14:39:47  <planetmaker> or do there need to be differences between push / nightly / release except the path files are transfered to?
14:40:38  <Ammler> ah no
14:40:44  <Ammler> there is a error on building still
14:41:03  <Ammler> yes, we have quite many differences
14:41:29  <Ammler> feel free to adjust it yourself, I don't mind, just commit the changes :-)
14:44:14  <Ammler> I don't see the error
14:46:55  * planetmaker ponders to actually change the real ogfx+landscape to use a graphics sub-repo now
14:48:27  <Ammler> omg, I guess I accidentially enabled push with http without any credentials :-P
14:49:29  <planetmaker> uhm :-P
14:50:08  <Ammler> abort: authorization failed <-- no
14:51:51  <Ammler> planetmaker: you should fix source bundle building first
14:52:58  <Brot6> sub-landscape: update from r64 to r72 done -
14:53:07  <Brot6> sub-landscape: update from r71 to r72 done -
14:54:19  <planetmaker> the remaining error IMHO is a CF error
14:54:24  <planetmaker> what shall I fix about that?
14:54:24  <Ammler> nana
14:54:35  <Ammler> try to build from a source bundle
14:54:44  <Ammler> it is the only error since ever :-)
14:54:49  <planetmaker> <-- this ?
14:54:54  <Ammler> my errors are not really serious :-P
14:54:58  <planetmaker> oh, from source
14:55:34  <planetmaker> they make the error log checking but a bit pointless as the main reason size=0 --> all fine doesn't work for ages
14:55:45  <planetmaker> thus 50% of its use is gone
14:56:27  <Ammler> don't get?
14:56:46  <planetmaker> I meant that error with grf2html
14:56:57  <planetmaker> thus I always have an error reported in the error log
14:57:00  <planetmaker> pointless errors
14:57:14  <Ammler> well
14:57:21  <planetmaker> :-)
14:57:28  <Ammler> devzone error
14:57:41  <planetmaker> yes, but it's ugly to always have errors
14:58:09  <Ammler> ... I might fix it when I know what causes it
15:04:23  <planetmaker> anyway, thx for the bundle_src hint
15:05:54  <planetmaker> meh, that sucks
15:06:49  <planetmaker> It doesn't feel right to bundle the whole graphics subrepo with each repo which uses it
15:06:51  <planetmaker> hm...
15:08:37  <Ammler> well, at least for opengfx, something like that is needed
15:08:42  <planetmaker> what do you think we should do about that, Ammler? Ship the whole graphics sub-repo with each of the ogfx source bundles?
15:09:17  <Ammler> for the other project, we can simply skip source bundle
15:09:21  <planetmaker> well, also opengfx itself doesn't need all graphics therein
15:09:48  <planetmaker> But then... I guess it doesn't hurt. It's just a source bundle. Who uses that anyway?
15:10:04  <Ammler> distros only
15:10:57  <Ammler> but why not try again to make source bundle with "hg archive" ?
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15:32:50  <planetmaker> hm, is it a loss when 'make bundle_src' requires a hg repo?
16:04:39  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Patch #2860: Shorter standard length, added templates (oberhuemer) @
16:04:47  <Ammler> planetmaker: of course not, if you define it that way :-)
16:05:44  <Ammler> IMO, it is already too much effort to be able building without hg
16:05:54  <planetmaker> :-)
16:06:10  <planetmaker> I guess making use of hg archive -S is then the easiest way
16:06:11  <Ammler> which breaks nml2nfo
16:06:18  <planetmaker> hu?
16:06:25  <Ammler> the issue with have on ogfx
16:07:05  <planetmaker> I don't follow
16:08:02  <Ammler> the reason, nml2nfo doesn't work
16:09:21  <planetmaker> nml2nfo... ? That's in-built into nmlc?
16:11:27  <Ammler> the additinal target you added to ogfx
16:11:41  <Ammler> I am sure, we have a ticket about
16:11:44  <Ammler> hmm
16:11:46  <Ammler> don't we
16:13:09  <Ammler> #2751
16:13:09  <Brot6> Ammler: #2751 is "OpenGFX - Feature #2751: build nfos from nml for distro - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
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16:29:09  <planetmaker> oh.... you talked of OpenGFX specific target :-)
16:44:42  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 44:96b8bef2071b: some reordering of tracking table (Eddi) @
16:44:42  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 45:8dde3c408248: add warnings for missing values and set so... (Eddi) @
17:19:29  <Brot6> cets: update from r39 to r45 done (374 warnings) -
17:20:37  <Brot6> dutchtramset: update from r49 to r52 done -
17:21:15  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: ogfx-trains (r245), narvs (r37), bros (r52), ogfx-industries (r121), firs (r2173), sub-landscape (r72), opengfx (r681), ailib-tile (r16), transrapidtrackset (r15), 2cctrainset (r750), ailib-list (r32), opensfx (r97), ttdviewer (r34), worldairlinersset (r672), heqs (r605), openmsx (r97), basecosts (r25), nutracks (r202), nml (r1514), 32bpp-extra (r40), manindu (r7), newgrf_makefile (r305),
17:21:15  <Brot6> ailib-direction (r17), ailib-common (r21), snowlinemod (r49), ai-admiralai (r75), swisstowns (r22), metrotrackset (r56), spanishtowns (r10), frenchtowns (r6), grfpack (r279), ogfx-rv (r107), fish (r655), ogfx-landscape (r70), ttrs (r36), source-test (r2), ogfx-trees (r51), swedishrails (r203), grfcodec (r832), ai-aroai (r39), german-townnames (r34), smts (r19), chips (r143), belarusiantowns (r8), indonesiantowns (r41), ailib-string
17:21:18  <Brot6> (r29), airportsplus (r107), comic-houses (r71)
17:21:54  <Brot6> narvs: compile of r37 still failed (#2789) -
17:22:31  <Brot6> ogfx-industries: compile of r121 still failed (#2792) -
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18:59:30  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2864 (Confirmed): Industries have wrong accept/produce cargos (andythenorth) @
19:00:07  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1515:58c05c7e2243: Codechange: Store explicitly whether a callbac... (Hirundo) @
19:00:07  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1516:485fe6429aeb: Feature #1555: A 'callback' for rotor graphics. (Hirundo) @
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21:55:15  <Ammler> :'-(
21:55:32  *** JVassie has quit IRC
21:55:56  *** avdg has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
21:59:18  * planetmaker hugs Ammler and wishes a good night
21:59:34  <planetmaker> what's causing your distress?
22:04:47  <Ammler> created a new vm and again cpu usage > 50
22:05:00  <Ammler> but it was dropping again
22:09:20  <planetmaker> hm

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