Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 31st July 2011:
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00:35:53  *** Zuu has quit IRC
05:40:10  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
06:46:40  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Bug #2911 (Confirmed): [NML] Rebuild is not triggered when a new languag... (planetmaker) @
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07:56:50  <Brot6> Unrealistic Trainset - Feature #2912 (New): THE SLUG TRAIN (V453000) @
07:56:58  <V453000> pm: is that fine? ^
07:58:17  <planetmaker> you mean feasable?
07:58:28  <planetmaker> sounds to me like one of the usual articulated vehicles
07:58:36  <planetmaker> (technically speaking)
07:58:54  <V453000> yes, that is what I meant
07:59:38  <V453000> guess I will have to try to code that to see eh :P
08:01:39  <planetmaker> make it one vehicle which can only attach to itself, always exactly N times.
08:01:48  <planetmaker> The view depends on the position within the consist
08:02:30  <planetmaker> I'm not sure why to go for shorter than 8/8 vehicles, though
08:02:43  <planetmaker> (8/8 = half a tile)
08:05:58  <planetmaker> See 'articulated_part'
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08:26:15  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2913 (New): Sheep farm uses 7E procedure calls (Hirundo) @
08:52:10  <frosch123> hmm, is that the frist grf which actually uses 7e?
08:57:06  <V453000> What do I need to have in order to start writing NML code? Or eventually, making it work? Is a text editor such as notepad++ enough or do I need to download some things like this ? I thought the devzone compiles for me and I just provide the "text". Is that how things work?
08:58:23  <andythenorth> V453000: you need python installed, and ideally a version control system
08:58:27  <andythenorth> what OS?
08:58:48  <V453000> win7
08:58:55  <V453000> I read 32 bit is recommended
08:58:59  <V453000> ... I have python already
08:59:14  <V453000> but when I opened it it seems to me just like notepad :d
08:59:29  <andythenorth> what python version do you have?
08:59:45  <V453000> 3.1.4.
09:00:01  <andythenorth> iirc, you would be better using 2.6.6 for windows
09:00:07  <andythenorth> planetmaker, Hirundo?? ^
09:00:14  <Hirundo> frosch123: I guess NFO firs used 7E, and the fact that it needs special treatment wasn't recognized during the nfo->nml conversion
09:00:30  <V453000> oh :)
09:00:31  <andythenorth> I didn't use 7E
09:00:33  <Hirundo> V453000: You need python 2.5-2.7
09:00:40  <V453000> okay, thank you :)
09:00:47  <andythenorth>
09:00:48  <Webster> Title: Python 2.6.6 Release (at
09:00:53  <Hirundo> andythenorth: Really sure? It's there, in the sheep farm
09:01:03  <andythenorth> maybe I used it to learn it :O
09:01:08  <andythenorth> or maybe someone else used it
09:01:13  <andythenorth> 7E is stored procedures?
09:01:24  <Hirundo> yes
09:01:41  <andythenorth> maybe yexo used it
09:01:49  <andythenorth> he's smarter than me :P
09:01:55  <Hirundo> "switch(FEAT_INDUSTRYTILES, SELF, action2_7355, STORE_TEMP((var[0x7E, 0, 255, 161] + var[0x7E, 0, 255, 65]), 16)) "
09:02:22  <V453000> jesus it is even written in the starter guide of NML that I need 2.5-2.7 :D
09:02:24  * V453000 digs himself
09:02:25  <andythenorth> V453000: once you get python, you need to get mercurial and install nml
09:02:28  <andythenorth> or vice-versa
09:02:41  <V453000> oh right, mercurial is?
09:02:54  <planetmaker> that's the version control system which gets your files on the server
09:02:59  <V453000> oh
09:03:00  <V453000> :)
09:03:16  <planetmaker> or rather: which keeps track of the changes you make to the newgrf
09:03:48  <andythenorth>
09:03:49  <Webster> Title: WindowsInstall - Mercurial (at
09:03:56  <Hirundo> Terkhen: I've traced the bug to an incorrectly calculated action6 offset
09:04:56  <andythenorth> V453000: actually this link might be better:
09:04:57  <Webster> Title: Download - Mercurial (at
09:05:34  <andythenorth> windows mercurial looks complicated :O
09:05:35  <V453000> I am there, which one though? The Mercurial-1.9 (32-bit py2.6) ?
09:05:50  <andythenorth> Terkhen has a windows version he might know
09:06:11  <andythenorth> I have no idea, don't want to advise wrongly ;)
09:06:36  <andythenorth> what is tortoise for?
09:07:15  <planetmaker> a GUI interface
09:07:15  <andythenorth> oh a graphical client
09:07:18  <andythenorth> how quaint
09:08:42  <V453000> hmm :) I will get back to drawing and ask Terkhen later :)
09:09:04  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #2914 (New): Handling of Dxxx strings (Hirundo) @
09:12:13  <Ammler> use Tortoisehg for mercurial
09:12:18  <Ammler> and nmlc.exe for nml
09:12:26  <Ammler> no need for python and such
09:12:54  <andythenorth> Terkhen had some issues with nmlc.exe
09:13:01  <andythenorth> I don't know if they got resolved
09:13:02  <Ammler> yes, pcx
09:13:10  <andythenorth> ok
09:13:26  <andythenorth> so he needed to install pil etc to solve that.  But it's a no-issue with png?
09:13:48  <Ammler> exactly, it doesn't support pcx,
09:15:44  <andythenorth> Ammler: should that be documented?
09:16:17  <andythenorth> possibly the documentation could also be clearer about the windows binary
09:16:27  <andythenorth> it would be easy to miss it and start installing python and such
09:17:05  <Ammler> well, nmlc.exe isn't documented at all
09:17:07  <andythenorth> if you install the windows binary, how do you update?
09:17:13  <andythenorth> you can't just hg pull :P
09:17:22  <Ammler> update?
09:17:30  <Ammler> you download newer nightly
09:17:56  <andythenorth> lame :P
09:18:47  <Ammler> it is easier to install linux as installing nml on windows
09:18:56  <V453000> hm >D
09:18:57  <V453000> :D
09:19:04  <Ammler> or the Makefile framewrok
09:19:14  <Ammler> V453000: serious :-)
09:19:21  <V453000> hm :)
09:19:36  <Ammler> Foobar would confirm my statement
09:19:57  <Ammler> Windows is no development system
09:20:06  <Ammler> it is just good for gaming and office
09:20:22  <V453000> right so I am likely screwed until I get linux >D
09:20:31  <V453000> ? :)
09:20:53  <Ammler> but of course, it is possible to develop, if you really insist
09:21:17  <V453000> what do I do with the nmlc.exe_
09:21:18  <V453000> ?
09:21:32  <Ammler> you unpack it somewhere
09:21:40  <V453000> ooh :) somewhere might be key
09:21:50  <Ammler> then set %PATH%
09:22:10  <Ammler> then you run nmlc.exe in your project
09:22:16  <V453000> oh :)
09:22:21  <V453000> from where?
09:22:32  <Ammler> somewhere
09:22:48  <Ammler> should not matter, if it is in the %path%
09:22:55  <Ammler> you know how to set path?
09:23:02  <V453000> I dont mean from which place, but from which program
09:23:35  <Ammler>
09:24:44  <V453000> yey, a guide, thanks
09:25:57  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 675:381cb65f9566: Change: work in progress on Small Utility Vessel 1 (andythenorth) @
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09:43:43  <V453000> yey, looks like I succeeded with that part
09:43:55  <V453000> will my computer explode now?
09:50:39  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 676:d6442ccbac9b: Change: name Labrador Utility Vessel (andythenorth) @
10:17:58  <Terkhen> Hirundo: hmm... those are added by nml, right?
10:18:49  <Terkhen> V453000: I usually download the latest version of mercurial from the homepage, but it does not require python (I suppose it comes bundled with it)
10:18:56  <Terkhen> nml does, though
10:19:18  <Terkhen> but as long as you want to use only png files you can use the windows version with nmlc.exe
10:19:22  <Terkhen> problems come when you want to use pcx :)
10:39:16  <V453000> pcx is useless as I understood so far :)
10:39:52  <planetmaker> it's pointless, yess
10:40:01  <planetmaker> it only complicates things without gain
10:40:51  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2915 (New): Some utility vessels should be using different templates (andythenorth) @
10:42:32  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1564:408e82b4f79d: Fix: Action6 offset wasn't incremented when pa... (Hirundo) @
10:44:38  <V453000> [auth] openttdcoop.prefix =" target="_blank"> openttdcoop.username = <username> openttdcoop.password = <password> openttdcoop.shemes = https What should I change? I figured username and password, but should I keep" target="_blank"> as it is and should I substitute the https with something?
10:44:46  <V453000> in mercurial.ini
10:44:52  <V453000> as this says
10:46:30  <Hirundo> Terkhen: bug should be fixed
10:46:36  <Ammler> V453000: what should you change it to?
10:46:57  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2916 (New): Verify correctness of action6 offsets (Hirundo) @
10:47:12  <V453000> Ammler: that is what I am asking
10:47:35  <Hirundo> renum errors should be harmless, I opened a ticket in the NML tracker about them but it doesn't need a quick fix
10:47:56  <Ammler> V453000: never ask on purpose, try and ask on error :-)
10:49:56  <V453000> hmf :)
10:51:40  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 677:960f6e039138: Change: remove unneeded rows from small utility vessel spritesheet (andythenorth) @
10:58:05  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2915 (New): Some utility vessels should be using different templates (andythenorth) @
10:58:05  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 678:d29a3ee0452e: Change: use correct template for Josephine Utility Vessel (andythenorth) @
10:58:54  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2915 (New): Some utility vessels should be using different templates (andythenorth) @
11:00:06  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2915 (Closed): Some utility vessels should be using different templates (andythenorth) @
11:00:06  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2915 (Closed): Some utility vessels should be using different templates (andythenorth) @
11:08:37  <V453000> hmm, if the guide says go to dev/TortoiseHg and locate puttygen.exe but it is not there, should I just download puttygen.exe from somewhere else ?
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11:11:43  <Ammler> V453000: no need
11:11:57  <Ammler> I am sure, it tells you to skip the ssh part
11:12:11  <V453000> oh, okay
11:12:48  <V453000> I thought commit access is the way how I add stuff
11:13:11  <Ammler> yes, but with https
11:13:19  <Ammler> not with ssh
11:14:19  <V453000> right then I have probably everything
11:14:22  <V453000> with just one problem
11:14:28  <Ammler> V453000: usually things are easier as someone things
11:14:32  <Ammler> thinks*
11:14:32  <V453000> (no clue how to launch the tortoise :D)
11:14:54  <V453000> I launched the workbench but ...
11:15:26  <FooBar> planetmaker: OpenGFX+ Landscape (0.2.1) also gives me temperate grass in tropic and toyland... That seems a but to me, should I support that bug with my tram tracks? :P
11:15:57  <planetmaker> FooBar: it only does that, if you select 'temperate' climate, IIRC
11:16:21  <FooBar> planetmaker: yes, but the description says I should only get it in arctic ;)
11:16:26  <planetmaker> the only real odditiy is 'arctic climate' in the openttd desert climate
11:16:31  <planetmaker> hu?
11:16:53  <FooBar> well, let me explain from the beginning
11:17:11  <FooBar> there's this option to have temperate grass (with snow) in arctic, right?
11:17:30  <FooBar> Now, if I set this, I also get temperate grass+snow in tropic. And temperate grass in toyland
11:17:50  <planetmaker> oh... the 'alpine' climate. Hm...
11:18:07  <V453000> Ammler: I suppose the mercurial.ini is missing some things so that the workbench would link with the repository properly, right?
11:18:14  <planetmaker> yes, it has interesting effects. I thought to disable it, but I didn't because I found it funky
11:18:42  <FooBar> yes, snow instead of desert is rather funky indeed :P
11:18:57  <planetmaker> you clearly see there that maritime climate is more moderate than continental one ;-)
11:18:58  <Ammler> V453000: no
11:19:02  <FooBar> so you don't consider it a bug? Then I won't either and just support it :P
11:19:03  <Ammler> just clone the repo
11:19:08  <V453000> but how
11:19:18  <Ammler> use tortoise
11:19:33  <planetmaker> FooBar: it's definitely out-of-the-norm. But I don't see a real reason to forbid it.
11:19:35  <FooBar> V453000: right click in the folder you want the repo folder in > TortoiseHg > Clone repo
11:19:43  <planetmaker> Forbidding it is rather more work and... well
11:19:59  <planetmaker> I'd need to replace roads. But I guess I'll do that
11:20:10  <FooBar> planetmaker: ok, cool. Then I just suggest to change the description from "temperate in arctic" to "temperate in everything"
11:20:20  <planetmaker> of course :-)
11:20:52  <FooBar> V453000: then behind source give the (https) link to the repo and leave the rest as it is. Click the clone button.
11:22:01  <V453000> oooh
11:22:07  <V453000> my brain is just beyond dumb today
11:22:08  <V453000> thanks
11:24:02  <V453000> % hg clone --verbose -- ssh://" target="_blank"> running ""TortoisePlink.exe" -ssh -2 "hg -R hg-repos/ur-trains serve --stdio"" remote: No supported authentication methods left to try! no suitable response from remote hg
11:24:09  <V453000> guess that isnt called success :d
11:24:21  <V453000> oh https
11:24:56  <FooBar> yes, https
11:25:02  <FooBar> then it will ask for your password
11:25:15  <V453000> % hg clone --verbose -- ur-trains URLError: [Errno 11004] getaddrinfo failed
11:25:16  <V453000> :|
11:25:24  <V453000> what did I screw up there?
11:25:31  <FooBar> use your own username, as provided by the devzone
11:25:47  <FooBar> for example I get this for ttrs:
11:25:54  <V453000> ooh
11:26:07  <planetmaker> V453000: ottdc is not your username ;-)
11:26:19  <FooBar> If you go in the devzon to repository, click https, it will give you the correct link
11:26:19  <V453000> I had no clue it should be an user name :D
11:27:03  <V453000> FooBar: that gave me something totally different :D
11:27:18  <FooBar> yes, that's it
11:27:23  <V453000> says 404
11:27:30  <V453000> % hg clone --verbose -- ur-trains HTTP Error: 404 (Not Found)
11:27:38  <FooBar> wait, misc?
11:27:48  <V453000> found that weird :)
11:27:57  <FooBar> what project are you trying to clone?
11:28:17  <V453000> uhm, ur-trains?
11:28:36  <V453000> yey
11:28:37  <V453000> success
11:28:50  <V453000> (here you can see how much of a confused beyond-BFU I am)
11:28:56  <FooBar>
11:29:12  <V453000> yes, that succeeded
11:29:15  <FooBar> Now tortoise will remember that url for you, for when you need to push
11:29:20  <V453000> :)
11:29:36  <FooBar> And everything else you need is in the TortoiseHg workbench
11:29:56  <V453000> awesome :)
11:31:07  <FooBar> Before you commit/push, check if you have set a username
11:31:17  <FooBar> In the workbench, go to File ? Settings
11:31:19  <V453000> in the mercurial.ini?
11:31:21  <V453000> oh
11:31:29  <V453000> well that is from that file, isnt it
11:31:36  <FooBar> yes, that's from that file
11:31:44  <FooBar> if you did it in mercurial.ini, it will be fine
11:31:47  <V453000> yes
11:31:54  <FooBar> good
11:31:57  <V453000> (I finally did something right for once)
11:32:00  <FooBar> :)
11:32:16  <FooBar> Then I'll just figure out for you if you can have it remember your password
11:32:31  <FooBar> Otherwise it will ask on every push
11:32:52  <FooBar> or pull, or basically every communication with the server
11:33:38  <V453000> right so I should type the password into the .ini and tell it to you?
11:33:57  <FooBar> you surely shouldn't tell me you password
11:34:05  <V453000> I guess :)
11:37:13  <V453000> pull asks me if I want to remove authentification info from the URL ... I suppose I do ?
11:38:03  <FooBar> never had that one before; let me try to reproduce that
11:38:48  <V453000> no changes found ... I guess that is because the repository has nothing inside
11:39:16  <FooBar> that seems to be correct
11:40:12  <FooBar> Now you can start filling the repository on your computer, do the commits and then push
11:40:38  <FooBar> Did you want to use the makefile system?
11:40:40  <V453000> so I just dump some file into the folder?
11:40:43  <V453000> what that is?
11:41:07  <FooBar> Oh, they offered you a repo and didn't tell you about the makefile? :P
11:41:35  <V453000> they know how hard it is to configure something with me :P
11:41:55  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 679:71650c85dc35: Fix: white pixels in Sungei Catamaran (andythenorth) @
11:42:02  <FooBar> It's a framework that allows to build and package your newgrf from source. It's kinda required if you want to use nightly and release builds on the server.
11:42:21  <FooBar> Unless you want to write your own makefile that is (which you don't want, trust me)
11:42:26  <V453000> :D
11:42:33  <V453000> I trust you :P
11:42:37  <FooBar> heh :)
11:43:10  <FooBar> Are you using Windows?
11:43:14  <V453000> yes
11:43:35  <FooBar> In that case I have to warn you: to be able to use the makefile properly you're much better off on linux
11:43:43  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2645 (Closed): Graphics for 12t utility vessel (andythenorth) @
11:43:53  <FooBar> Myself I use a virtual linux in Virtualbox for that.
11:44:13  <V453000> oh :o
11:44:23  <FooBar> It's a bit of a pain to set up, especially as there's no manual
11:44:37  <planetmaker> mv FooBar manual ;-)
11:45:14  <FooBar> planetmaker: my old manual is horribly outdated, and my new "manual" is not a manual, just some notes:
11:46:21  <FooBar> V453000: have a look at this, to see if that makes sense to you:
11:47:06  <FooBar> If not, it might be easier to just give you a copy of my existing virtual machine
11:47:39  <V453000> jesus christ :D
11:47:49  <V453000> (answer is "no")
11:48:06  <FooBar> :)
11:49:07  <FooBar> then I'll wrap the virtual hard drive up for you.
11:49:29  <V453000> yeyy, thank you :)
11:49:44  <V453000> (I wonder if I am going to manage to screw it up)
11:49:50  <FooBar> If you're up to all this, you can download and install Virtualbox in the meantime
11:49:58  <V453000> ok :)
11:51:54  <FooBar> darn, the thing is almost 4 GB :S
11:52:35  <V453000> :D
11:52:44  <V453000> do you have the power to upload it?
11:53:06  <FooBar> I'll split it in 4 rar parts
11:53:34  <FooBar> Although I wonder what is quicker: uploading this, or having you set up everything yourself
11:54:12  <FooBar> I guess this is easier. Plus once it's uploaded, it might be useful to others as well
11:55:55  <FooBar> V453000: when you're installing virtualbox, don't install network bridge and host-only adapters
11:56:27  <FooBar> you don't need them. If you already did install it, it doesn't really matter, but you'll have some additional network adapters on your system :P
11:59:23  <Ammler> FooBar: it is worth to know how to install linux
11:59:27  <Ammler> and it is quite easy
11:59:52  <Ammler> if he got a complete vm, he will be stock somewhere else
12:00:06  <FooBar> If you're willing to be the install guide, then by all means go ahead
12:00:17  <Ammler> also since setup linux is so much easier as windows
12:00:27  <andythenorth> I used linux in vmware when I needed it
12:00:31  <andythenorth> was trivial
12:00:41  <Ammler> FooBar: no need, linux is completely selfexplaining
12:00:58  <Ammler> as said, not compareable with windows
12:01:02  <FooBar> Well, the linux setup itself is not too complicated, its just everything that comes after that
12:01:15  <andythenorth> it's about as self-explaining as OS X
12:01:23  <andythenorth> i.e. it's really easy if you know how to do it :P
12:01:24  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 680:b70f9bbd6c4d: Change: update changelog for 0.9.2 release (andythenorth) @
12:01:26  <Ammler> FooBar: that's the point, that part is so easy
12:01:38  <FooBar> Ammler: what you see here is all after installing Linux:
12:01:41  <Ammler> you just need to use your favorite package manager
12:01:54  <andythenorth> you don't have a favourite at this point - it's all new :P
12:01:54  <Ammler> <package-manager> install nml
12:02:10  <FooBar> does that give you the latest nightly?
12:02:15  <Terkhen> thank you Hirundo, I'll test it later :)
12:02:19  <Ammler> :-D
12:02:26  <Ammler> well, that was just an example
12:02:39  <Ammler> I don't think, many distros provide nml
12:02:48  <Ammler> just suse & fedora
12:02:53  <Ammler> well, those I make
12:03:19  <FooBar> I must've been blind then; last time I checked it wasn't on fedora
12:03:32  <andythenorth> did I imagine that the repo contains a compiled version of nml?
12:03:32  <Ammler> FooBar: I am quite sure, I gave you a link
12:03:43  <andythenorth> nmlc seems to be there when I pull, no need to build
12:03:58  <andythenorth> maybe I was mistaken
12:03:58  <Ammler> andythenorth: just nmlc wrapper
12:04:01  <andythenorth> ah ok
12:04:07  <Ammler> so you can run nml without building
12:04:18  <FooBar> hmmm, you might need to give me that link again then...
12:04:18  <Ammler> which most here do
12:04:23  <andythenorth> anyway, pull-to-update has been working fine for me
12:04:29  <Ammler> yep
12:04:46  <Ammler> andythenorth: using package manager is just fine to install the dependency
12:04:55  <Ammler> like pil and ply etc.
12:04:58  * andythenorth hasn't released newgrf for so long, I've forgotten how
12:05:12  <FooBar>
12:05:28  <FooBar> or aren't you there yet?
12:05:44  <andythenorth> new FISH incoming, unless I don't get it done before I have to drive 2 hours
12:06:29  <FooBar> well, it's basically tag, push, wait, download release from devzone, upload release to bananas, update topic
12:06:41  <FooBar> maybe that'll refresh your memory
12:06:45  <FooBar> :P
12:17:38  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 681:388ab8dd7ebd: Added tag 0.9.2 for changeset b70f9bbd6c4d (andythenorth) @
12:17:46  * andythenorth wonders if FISH is compatible with previous versions
12:17:48  <andythenorth> probably
12:18:35  <Ammler> according to the version it should
12:18:56  <Brot6> fish: update from 0.9.1 to 0.9.2 done -
12:19:33  * andythenorth doesn't really know if it's compatible or not, but maybe users will discover the answer :o
12:20:10  <Ammler> "B" "MINV" \w4 \d0 <-- tells it compatible down to r0
12:22:47  <andythenorth> indeed
12:22:54  <andythenorth> that's probably not 100%  true
12:23:04  <andythenorth> establishing the % that is true is boring :P
12:23:11  <Ammler> :-)
12:23:16  * andythenorth awaits volunteers :P
12:24:08  <FooBar> release it, people will tell you if it doesn't work :P
12:24:20  <Ammler> imo, you should use the revision of 0.9.0 there
12:26:03  <FooBar> STR_PARAM_BALLAST_TEMPERATE         :Gemäßigtem Gras
12:26:03  <frosch123> planetmaker: did you also discuss yesterday, how costs could evolve over gametiem
12:26:04  <FooBar> STR_PARAM_BALLAST_ARCTIC            :Subarktischem Gras
12:26:06  <FooBar> STR_PARAM_BALLAST_SUBTROPIC         :Subtropischem Sand
12:26:08  <FooBar> STR_PARAM_BALLAST_TOYLAND           :Spielzeuggras
12:26:19  <planetmaker> frosch123, we did not
12:26:22  <FooBar> is that correct German? I completely forgot about these cases...
12:26:33  <frosch123> yeah, because that is not possible with current base cost grfs :)
12:26:46  <frosch123> we need a basecost callback :p
12:26:51  <planetmaker> :-)
12:28:12  <Ammler> why is that needed?
12:28:17  <Ammler> basecost is just a factor
12:28:28  <frosch123> Ammler: but it is constant during the whole game
12:28:43  <planetmaker> FooBar, it's correct, but I think the case is wrong. Gemäßigtes Gras, Subartisches Gras, Subtropisches Gras, Spielzeugland(gras)
12:29:03  <FooBar> yes, I was afraid of that, thanks!
12:29:17  <planetmaker> I'd not add "gras" to toyland
12:29:23  <planetmaker> it's no gras there - just tile
12:29:30  <FooBar> subtropic is sand by the way, not grass
12:29:33  <frosch123> Ammler: take the dbset as extreme example. it changes the purchase costs so that modern vehicles are massively more expensive.
12:29:40  <planetmaker> uhm, yes :-)
12:29:41  <frosch123> but there is no way to do something like that globally
12:29:59  <FooBar> planetmaker: still -es with sand?
12:30:09  <planetmaker> no. Subtropischer Sand
12:30:24  <FooBar> ok, thanks!
12:30:29  <planetmaker> different gender :-). you're welcome
12:31:40  <FooBar> I used to know how that worked, once. But if you don't keep up with that, you'll forget
12:32:18  <planetmaker> :-) sure enough one does
12:32:26  <FooBar> In Dutch it's easier: I can just bluff that and it's mostly correct :P
12:32:55  <planetmaker> well. If I'd try the other way round, trying to come up with Dutch strings... that'd unfortunately still fail horribly
12:33:15  <planetmaker> hm... Maybe I should learn a bit more till next spring ;-)
12:33:24  <FooBar> Yes, that's what I have with German language :P
12:33:38  <FooBar> But I don't blame you, Dutch grammar is one big exception to the rules
12:33:50  <planetmaker> well, German certainly isn't better
12:33:59  <Ammler> frosch123: indeed, almost impossible to start with dbset on year 2000
12:34:18  <FooBar> I don't think there's one grammar rule that doesn't have exceptions 50% of the times
12:34:41  <Ammler> frosch123: but I guess, dbset doesn't do that with basecosts
12:34:58  <frosch123> Ammler: sure it does not, because it is not possible currently :p
12:35:06  <Ammler> :-)
12:35:23  <frosch123> and btw. if it would be possible, it would likely be based on game duration, and not an absolute games
12:35:29  <Ammler> but it is a reason, why some use basecosts to change bandwith of costs
12:35:32  <frosch123> *gametime
12:35:37  <Ammler> and not to change economy
12:36:20  <FooBar> [14:35]	frosch123	*gametime > lol :P that was 10 minutes ago
12:37:07  <Ammler> s/>/</
12:37:33  <frosch123> FooBar: what?
12:37:40  <FooBar> that typo
12:37:51  <FooBar> [14:26]	frosch123	planetmaker: did you also discuss yesterday, how costs could evolve over gametiem
12:38:05  <frosch123> i referred to my last line 10 seconds ago
12:38:18  <frosch123> s/absolute games/absolute gametime/
12:38:19  <FooBar> I thought you referred to that; that made me lol :)
12:38:34  <FooBar> oh, heh
12:38:38  <frosch123> i do not correct my spelling if it does not change the meaning :)
12:39:20  <frosch123> only if it results in not being understandable
12:39:44  <FooBar> makes sense. But it was funny that it looked that you corrected something from 10 minutes ago :P
12:39:53  <FooBar> anyways, carry on :)
12:53:03  <andythenorth> bbl
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13:05:03  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2917 (New): Change way of defining grf parameters (Hirundo) @
13:11:30  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2917: Change way of defining grf parameters (planetmaker) @
13:12:43  <Hirundo> planetmaker: good point
13:13:14  <Hirundo> that IMO needs addressing for other things (item ids) also
13:14:00  <Hirundo> Perhaps, NML could output ID mapping to a file (say compatibility.txt) when requested
13:14:19  <Hirundo> then, import that file during and re-use IDs as requested
13:16:55  <planetmaker> Hirundo, itemID is solved, I can explicitly specify them
13:17:14  <planetmaker> only action0 itemIDs are interesting in a compatibility sense
13:18:21  <Hirundo> IMO, manually set item IDs are a bad thing also for non-vehicles
13:18:46  <Hirundo> It only encourages referring to ids by number, instead of by name
13:18:59  <planetmaker> not to me :-)
13:19:15  <planetmaker> I'm happy to assign the number once - but later always to refer by name
13:19:40  <Hirundo> why bother having to assign a number, making sure it's unique, etc. ?
13:19:42  <planetmaker> a workaround could be to introduce a pseude property called "id"
13:20:13  <planetmaker> Hirundo, why? Because I want to make it compatible to <whatever>
13:20:19  <planetmaker> Or to just re-define a default item
13:20:29  <Hirundo> That's only for vehicles, all other ids are nfo-internal
13:20:36  <planetmaker> there's IMHO no sensible way to un-expose the IDs from the programmers
13:20:46  <planetmaker> houseIDs? IndustryIDs?
13:20:48  <planetmaker> tileIDs?
13:20:56  <planetmaker> they're quite external and newgrf relevant
13:21:29  <planetmaker> or you mean they have an override manager?
13:21:54  <planetmaker> But even so, the usual programming (IMHO) goes this way: add itemA, itemC --> version 1
13:22:02  <planetmaker> then add itemB --> version2
13:22:13  <Hirundo> ^^ there are override managers for those everywhere, all IDs are internal
13:22:14  <planetmaker> itemB is of course added in the source code between A and C
13:22:30  <planetmaker> as such ... numbers still should stay.
13:22:46  <planetmaker> And even if they're newgrf-internal. They need to keep the same internal number
13:23:04  <planetmaker> or FIRS 0.7.0 won't be compatible with FIRS 0.7.1 if I add another industry tile
13:23:10  <planetmaker> then oil rigs accept coal etc
13:23:24  <Hirundo> And after a while, you have a list like 1, 5, 3, 4, 2, 7, ... with probably holes in it and such, i.e. it makes little sense
13:23:53  <planetmaker> Not quite. Sensibly you do not remove a number ever. You just disable it from future use
13:23:54  <Hirundo> which is why I would propose such a 'compatibility.txt' file that saves such info
13:23:58  <planetmaker> Or you break compatibility
13:24:47  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2917: Change way of defining grf parameters (foobar) @
13:25:52  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2917: Change way of defining grf parameters (foobar) @
13:28:06  <Hirundo> apart from parameters and item ids, (DCxx) text ids might need looking into also
13:28:45  <planetmaker> where is their consistent use important?
13:30:16  <Hirundo> At least in TTDPatch, DCxx ids are saved IIRC
13:31:31  <planetmaker> can you refresh my memory? What are they used for?
13:32:29  <Hirundo> those can be used to set properties
13:32:52  <Hirundo> But I think it's just a TTDPatch quirk, I can't find a trace of it in openttd
13:38:47  <Ammler> those are ttd strings, that is handled via wt in openttd
13:38:51  <Ammler> (afaik)
13:39:39  <Hirundo> No, D0xx and DCxx are both grf-specific
13:40:31  <Hirundo> FooBar: What would be a dutch translation for 'graphics' in "Original graphics by Purno" ?
13:40:59  <FooBar> don't think there's a proper Dutch term for "graphics"
13:41:17  <FooBar> I'd go for "Originele graphics door Purno"
13:42:12  <frosch123> Hirundo: yup, ottd does not save strings
13:42:19  <frosch123> and i am not sure whether ttdp still does it
13:42:30  <frosch123> i remember some commit message that it was removed again
13:42:46  * Hirundo does not remember ttdpatch commit
13:43:35  <Hirundo> frosch123: For grf compatibility, action0/3/4 IDs and layout of grf parameters need to be the same. Anything else?
13:44:12  <Hirundo> hmmm... industry layouts probably
13:44:20  <Hirundo> house size
13:44:27  <frosch123> tram/road :)
13:44:29  <Hirundo> track/non track status for stations
13:44:31  <frosch123> vehicle length
13:44:37  <frosch123> about everything :p
13:44:57  <planetmaker> railtype compatibility
13:45:12  <planetmaker> (or at least it must not become less)
13:45:13  <frosch123> but if you mean pure syntactical stuff, then yes only ids
13:45:30  <planetmaker> airport layouts certainly, too
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13:46:05  <frosch123> and the parameters
13:46:31  <Hirundo> engine/wagon status
13:46:36  <frosch123> i doubt you can check the semantical differences of layout changes or vehicle changes
13:47:20  <Hirundo> I'm not sure either, but at least I'd like to grab the low-hanging fruit
13:47:57  <planetmaker> but... to what do you want to compare, Hirundo ?
13:48:15  <planetmaker> previous compile run (only)?
13:48:47  <Hirundo> Perhaps something like nmlc foo.nml --compatible=foo-previous.nml
13:49:39  <Hirundo> I'm not sure, started thinking about it like 10 mins ago :)
13:50:03  <planetmaker> :-)
13:50:23  <Ammler> what about adding regression test to openttd like it does for ai?
13:50:31  <planetmaker> The idea certainly is not bad as many incompatible changes rather happen inadvertly
13:51:44  <Ammler> hmm, openttd isn't able to detect compatibility issues, is it?
13:52:53  <planetmaker> if it could, it'd be easy :-)
13:53:55  <frosch123> it is no much c for that :p
13:54:02  <frosch123> s/no/too/
13:57:31  <frosch123> Hirundo: i think ttdp actually only stores the mapping of globally allocated textids to the grf local textids
13:57:53  <frosch123> which is not required for ottd, as it stores the grfid for everything
13:58:16  <Hirundo> ah ok, thanks
14:26:40  <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 15:4f9c9be8f299: Feature: (initial) OpenGFX+ Landscape support (foobar) @
14:26:40  <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 16:da0faa693178: Feature: allow to select each climate manually (... (foobar) @
14:26:40  <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 17:c61615d9bd97: Fix (r16): rework autodetect feature (foobar) @
14:26:42  <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 18:a170b982992e: Feature: default climate-dependent graphics to O... (foobar) @
14:26:46  <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 19:754532aa0957: Update: some text strings (foobar) @
14:26:50  <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 20:c769ec49fdf1: Doc: add documentation (foobar) @
14:26:54  <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 21:4f802eebb967: Enable nightly/release builds (foobar) @
14:27:00  <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 22:4d4fe31ca77c: Lang: some small update to Dutch (foobar) @
14:29:20  <planetmaker> sweet :-)
14:29:31  <FooBar> push b-bomb :P
14:31:58  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 120:dcb71222ebfd: - Add terraforming option so user can disable ai terrafor... (krinn) @
15:02:11  <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 23:e0bccf9ce134: Release: 1.0.0 (foobar) @
15:03:52  <Brot6> foobarstramtracks: update from  to 1.0.0 done -
15:11:57  <Hirundo> FYI - I'll be away for a few days
15:12:11  <Hirundo> Just report your bugs as usual, I just won't fix them :P
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15:12:23  <frosch123> have fun
15:12:32  <frosch123> when will yexo be back? :p
15:14:27  <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Feature #2910 (Closed): OpenGFX+ landscape support (foobar) @
15:14:56  *** XeryusTC is now known as test
15:14:59  *** test is now known as XeryusTC
15:16:51  <planetmaker> Enjoy your vacation, Hirundo
15:20:33  <Terkhen> Hirundo: enjoy :)
15:34:03  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2160 (Rejected): Add cost parameters - same as HEQS (andythenorth) @
15:38:28  <Brot6> SuperLib - Revision 8:3dc8b46f7fd6: Remove debug signs in function that finds airport placement i... (Zuu) @
15:38:28  <Brot6> SuperLib - Revision 9:48b4dd244f68: Airport changes (Zuu) @
15:38:28  <Brot6> SuperLib - Revision 10:1fab0b2e5c80: better handle when distant join stations is off in Road.Grow... (Zuu) @
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15:46:20  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 112:f0df1842f16e: apply price calculation to tracking table... (Eddi) @
16:30:17  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 113:6ab9d6f4aa9d: apply price calculation formula to the wh... (Eddi) @
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17:10:15  <Brot6> nml: update from r1563 to r1564 done -
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17:19:37  <Brot6> firs: update from r2231 to r2232 done (38 warnings) -
17:21:09  <Brot6> foobarstramtracks: update from  to r23 done -
17:23:37  <Brot6> cets: update from r109 to r113 done (436 warnings) -
17:25:21  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2233:bd07b35fcff6: Fix (r2229): Remove unused switch sta... (planetmaker) @
17:25:22  <Brot6> fish: update from r669 to r681 done -
17:25:44  <planetmaker> there was one warning too much ;-)
17:25:49  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: ogfx-trains (r245), narvs (r37), bros (r52), ogfx-industries (r122), sub-landscape (r72), opengfx (r681), ailib-tile (r16), transrapidtrackset (r28), 2cctrainset (r750), ailib-list (r32), opensfx (r97), ttdviewer (r34), worldairlinersset (r672), heqs (r605), openmsx (r97), basecosts (r25), nutracks (r202), nml (r1564), 32bpp-extra (r40), manindu (r7), newgrf_makefile (r305),
17:25:49  <Brot6> ailib-direction (r17), ailib-common (r21), snowlinemod (r49), dutchtramset (r84), ai-admiralai (r75), swisstowns (r22), metrotrackset (r56), spanishtowns (r10), frenchtowns (r6), grfpack (r279), ogfx-rv (r107), ogfx-landscape (r71), ttrs (r36), source-test (r2), ogfx-trees (r51), swedishrails (r203), grfcodec (r832), ai-aroai (r39), german-townnames (r34), smts (r19), chips (r143), belarusiantowns (r8), indonesiantowns (r41),
17:25:51  <Brot6> ailib-string (r29), airportsplus (r107), comic-houses (r71)
17:27:14  <Brot6> narvs: compile of r37 still failed (#2789) -
17:28:40  <Brot6> sub-landscape: compile of r72 still failed (#2892) -
17:31:23  <Brot6> dutchtramset: compile of r84 still failed (#2899) -
17:31:50  <planetmaker> hm, dutchtramset failed?
17:32:50  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 682:c28fc206f23e: Change: refactor a define to be PCX neutral (andythenorth) @
17:32:50  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 683:9f34ced84737: Cleanup: remove unneeded comment (andythenorth) @
17:32:50  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #1738 (Closed): Revise spritesheets and convert to png for ships using enhanced ca... (andythenorth) @
17:39:08  <Brot6> source-test: compile of r2 failed -
17:43:24  <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: ogfx-trains (Diffsize: 2319), ogfx-industries, manindu (Diffsize: 2), newgrf_makefile, swisstowns, spanishtowns (Diffsize: 2), frenchtowns, ogfx-rv (Diffsize: 4775), ogfx-landscape (Diffsize: 471), swedishrails (50 warnings) (Diffsize: 392), german-townnames (Diffsize: 1), belarusiantowns (Diffsize: 30), indonesiantowns (1 warnings) (Diffsize: 1),
17:43:25  <Brot6> airportsplus (2 warnings) (Diffsize: 30186)
17:43:44  <FooBar> planetmaker: yes, for some days now. Due to change in NML requiring both loaded and loading states in spritegroups. I only used one for the purchase menu.
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17:50:47  <planetmaker> ah
18:29:34  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Revision 85:5deb38bb286f: Codechange: there I fixed it (closes #2899) (foobar) @
18:29:34  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Bug #2899 (Closed): DevZone compile failed (foobar) @
18:30:44  <Brot6> dutchtramset: update from r84 to r85 done -
18:39:16  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2913: Sheep farm uses 7E procedure calls (andythenorth) @
18:40:08  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2864 (Closed): Industries have wrong accept/produce cargos (andythenorth) @
18:41:22  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2731: All the defines for cb28 varaction 2 ID should be ... (andythenorth) @
18:44:21  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2338 (Feedback): Unexpected production changes (andythenorth) @
18:44:21  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1849: Unknown property use (andythenorth) @
18:47:21  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1849 (Closed): Unknown property use (planetmaker) @
18:49:51  <planetmaker> ^  I hope you don't mind ;-)
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18:58:44  <andythenorth> fine by me
18:58:53  <andythenorth> that's what I changed the ticket for :)
18:59:27  <andythenorth> I would like significantly fewer FIRS tickets
19:02:03  <planetmaker> I'm not sure about sugar refinery. I might have changed the used template already again to the new universal secondary production template
19:05:36  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r22700 to r22707 done (6 warnings) -
19:10:38  <Brot6> openttd-vehiclevars: update from r22700 to r22707 done -
19:13:53  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Feature #1677 (Rejected): See if some vehicles can be hidden from AI. (andythenorth) @
19:15:34  <Brot6> serverpatches: update from r22700 to r22707 done (10 warnings) -
19:17:36  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of r22707 still failed (#2446) -
19:40:12  <Ammler> FooBar: why did you create a new grf and keep newtramtracks?
19:44:46  <Ammler> also don't take the download counter seriuos, it is more age counter
20:00:26  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 607:0cae0ad09260: Add: source for forklift (andythenorth) @
20:10:05  <FooBar> Ammler: I wanted to change the title. Plus I wanted to change the grfid to match all my other grfids (such that they start with FBFB). Plus that this isn't 100% compatible with the old newtramtracks and that bananas doesn't allow name change. So it seemed the best solution to just treat it as a completely new grf.
20:11:19  <FooBar> I set the bananas compatibility such that new tram tracks doesn't show up in OpenTTD >= 1.0.0; and the other way round
20:11:46  <Ammler> ah indeed name change is not possible
20:12:03  <Ammler> I was just thinking about id, which can change
20:13:08  <Ammler> bananas really needs cleanup :-)
20:13:37  <planetmaker> so many things need doing...
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20:15:53  <FooBar> Oh, and the download stats indeed don't say much, but it's still nice to see something you made being downloaded a lot
20:16:55  * planetmaker downloads FooBar
20:17:14  * FooBar uploads himself
20:17:43  <FooBar> that reminds me to update the forum signature
20:18:01  * planetmaker never adds versions there... too fleeting ;-)
20:19:37  <FooBar> me neither, but now I have a name change ;)
20:20:01  <planetmaker> :-) Fair enough
20:21:03  <Ammler> FooBar: I just mean, if the download counter is high, it means the grf is old, not downloaded much
20:21:17  <Ammler> that number is wrong
20:21:24  <FooBar> is it?
20:21:45  <Ammler> well, my opinion :-)
20:21:51  <planetmaker> Ammler, the download counter is not wrong. It's just not a good popularity measure
20:21:58  <FooBar> Well, I know that if you upload a new version of something, it starts at 0 again.
20:21:58  <planetmaker> as it has no time info
20:22:14  <Ammler> planetmaker: but it just relative to age
20:22:32  <Ammler> it looks like everyone is always downloading everything
20:22:53  <planetmaker> mostly true, yes
20:22:55  <FooBar> so you can't compare with other stuff, but that's not what I tried to do. It may have sounded like that in the topic...
20:23:04  <Ammler> also the worst grf got so many downloads
20:23:50  <FooBar> eGRVTS?
20:23:56  <Ammler> FooBar: I just wanted to get you to ground again :-)
20:24:02  <FooBar> I use that all the time...
20:24:25  <FooBar> Ammler: thanks :)
20:24:39  <Ammler> before I set version limits to my grf, it had such numbers too
20:24:59  <Ammler> also unusabel grfs like old bridges and such
20:25:19  * FooBar thinks it's more interesting to show downloads / time since upload
20:25:30  <planetmaker> :-D My Mars elevation model meanwhile has 75k downloads
20:25:41  <Ammler> it should just sort alphabetical
20:26:24  <Ammler> I feared the high download number was the reason, you didn't update your newtramtracks :-P
20:27:29  <Ammler> or maybe just reset from time to time
20:27:44  <Ammler> Rubidium: could you set download count to null, please ;-)
20:27:50  <FooBar> Not at all. They still worked fine, no bugs. Other things had priority
20:28:47  <planetmaker> oh, such reset is not good
20:29:07  <Ammler> planetmaker: but the counter doesn't tell anything useful
20:29:16  <Ammler> it just tells how old a grf is
20:29:17  <planetmaker> it tells the number of downloads?
20:29:37  <Ammler> so you could add a date instead the "wrong counter"
20:30:16  <Ammler> planetmaker: would you hold your hand into fire for that statement?
20:30:54  <planetmaker> for what statement?
20:31:36  <Ammler> that it counts downloads
20:31:45  <Ammler> I would bet against
20:32:06  <Ammler> it looks like if I download one specific grf, it increments every entry
20:32:27  <planetmaker> every entry?
20:32:30  <Ammler> yes
20:32:51  <Ammler> or do you see a newer entry overtaking an older?
20:33:01  <planetmaker> yes
20:33:05  <Ammler> tell me
20:33:06  <andythenorth> eh?
20:33:11  <andythenorth> just go and read the code :P
20:33:14  <FooBar> doesn't look like that here. I just refreshed and egrvts went from 178596 to 178597 while generic tram set stayed at 168832
20:33:17  <andythenorth> this argument is dumb
20:33:48  <planetmaker> quite :-)
20:33:50  <Ammler> andythenorth: tell me 1 older entry which has less downloads as a newer
20:33:53  <andythenorth> the download count tells me approximately that there are either ~20k regular users of my grfs
20:34:10  <andythenorth> or that there there are ~20k users of ottd downloading content in any period of a few months
20:34:14  <andythenorth> one or the other
20:34:19  <FooBar> I still think that for sorting purposes download/day is more useful
20:34:23  <andythenorth> it would be
20:34:31  <Ammler> well, or week
20:34:32  <andythenorth> but nobody wants to patch bananas
20:34:48  <Ammler> and those who want are slapped
20:34:55  <andythenorth> I've patched it
20:34:58  <planetmaker> Ammler, for instance ECS is more popular than OpenGFX+ Industries.
20:34:59  <andythenorth> I didn't get slapped
20:35:10  <planetmaker> Its entry is newer but more downloads
20:35:11  <Ammler> planetmaker: just give me 2 entries please :-)
20:35:30  <planetmaker> satisfied?
20:35:43  <Ammler> hmm
20:36:06  <Ammler> mäh, the newgrf list has no date column
20:36:14  <planetmaker> :-)
20:36:29  <Ammler> so we can't prove mine nor yours
20:36:35  <planetmaker> of course we can
20:36:38  <Ammler> how?
20:36:45  <planetmaker> look at the ECS release dates and at the opengfx tag date
20:36:47  <andythenorth> read the fricking code :P
20:37:13  <Ammler> andythenorth: are you able to link to it?
20:37:24  <FooBar> If you need dates:
20:37:26  <Ammler> I don't think you can :-)
20:37:37  <Ammler> FooBar: yes, that proves my
20:37:38  <andythenorth> the django app is in the ottd repo
20:37:56  <andythenorth> the daemon that runs actual downloads - don't know.  ask Rubidium
20:38:03  <Ammler> andythenorth: you would need to read content server code
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20:38:28  <Ammler> ah, so you think the code is right but you even don't know, where to read?
20:38:38  <andythenorth> I think that would answer the question
20:38:51  <Ammler> I think, you guess as much I do :-P
20:38:52  <andythenorth> I didn't say you were wrong
20:39:11  <Ammler> well, the index page with date tell me, I am right
20:39:14  <andythenorth> if you want to bet 0.5 of any major currency unit, I'll take the bet
20:39:24  <Ammler> you can't counter prove :-P
20:39:27  <andythenorth> but I'd prefer not euros or dollars as they are about to be worthless
20:40:17  <andythenorth> Ammler: what point are you trying to make?
20:40:21  <planetmaker> Ammler, what is your frigging argument? You see the upload dates on the page FooBar linked and you see the download counter... where's the issue now?
20:40:21  * FooBar ponders investing in British money
20:40:31  <planetmaker> FooBar, Swiss money ;-)
20:40:38  <planetmaker> But might be too late for that now
20:40:40  <Ammler> andythenorth: basically just meant that the download counter is wrong
20:40:44  <planetmaker> It already rose by 50% or so
20:40:48  <FooBar> nah, not enough risk
20:40:54  <Ammler> it does tell you the age of a newgrf not the amount of downloads, that's all
20:41:29  <Ammler> and the list should not be sorted with it
20:41:43  <Ammler> (also if it wouldn't be wrong)
20:43:03  <Ammler> planetmaker: the download counter is relative to the age, not counting real downloads
20:43:11  <Ammler> that is all
20:43:27  <andythenorth> he could be right
20:43:40  <planetmaker> I really wonder what you mean with 'real downloads' and 'relative to age'
20:43:45  <Ammler> maybe it counts queries, like when you download the list
20:43:55  <planetmaker> every single time you request / download that newgrf the counter goes up by one.
20:43:59  <planetmaker> Try it yourself
20:44:13  <andythenorth> but maybe all counts increase by 1
20:44:14  <planetmaker> And it counts downloads
20:44:20  <andythenorth> an error is plausible
20:44:24  <planetmaker> why?
20:44:39  <planetmaker> Why is then ECS downloaded more often than ogfx+industries?
20:44:45  <Ammler> how you know
20:44:56  <Ammler> you don't see dates
20:44:57  <planetmaker> I see the upload dates and the download count?
20:45:02  <planetmaker> can't you see?
20:45:02  <Ammler> where?
20:45:09  <planetmaker> the link foobar gave?
20:45:32  <Ammler> I see no ecs there
20:45:44  <FooBar> not all are increased by one. Look at some of George's grfs, he has dates in the version number. There you see something from 2010 overtook something from 2008
20:45:45  <Ammler> ah
20:45:57  <Ammler> hmm
20:46:03  <planetmaker>  ECS Chemical vector II - 1.1.2(19Jun2011)	2011-06-19 19:16:56	124 kB	NewGRF
20:46:03  <planetmaker> ECS Town vector - 1.1.2(19Jun2011)	2011-06-19 19:16:23	598 kB	NewGRF
20:46:03  <planetmaker> ECS Wood vector - 1.1.2(19Jun2011)	2011-06-19 19:15:41	166 kB
20:46:13  <planetmaker> and now look at download count. Around 10k.
20:46:17  <planetmaker> ogfx+industries has about 9k
20:46:23  <planetmaker> and was released on 4 June
20:46:52  <FooBar> But I agree that the download information itself is not very useful information for sorting purposes
20:47:18  <FooBar> As indeed the older things are generally at the top and the newer things at the bottom
20:47:30  <planetmaker> certainly
20:47:44  <Ammler> ogfx-industries has versino limits
20:47:44  <planetmaker> But it's not a wrong number.
20:48:07  <andythenorth> the whole front end of bananas could be scrapped and replaced with not much work
20:48:13  <andythenorth> but I would need a collaborator
20:48:17  <andythenorth> and I don't do php
20:48:25  <Ammler> hmm, I guess my first thought is indeed not true
20:48:25  <andythenorth> and some people equally don't do python
20:48:37  <Ammler> it does count queries, instead downloads might be right
20:48:40  <FooBar> I do PHP, but don't do python
20:48:45  <andythenorth> exactamly
20:48:54  <FooBar> I thought the website was in python
20:49:05  <FooBar> otherwise I would have taken a look already to do some patching
20:49:12  <planetmaker> Ammler, no, I simply think it's people re-downloading stuff due to re-installations and so on
20:49:18  <planetmaker> it's at least partial downloads
20:49:22  <andythenorth> FooBar: it's django -> python
20:49:28  <andythenorth> but 99% unpatchable
20:49:40  <andythenorth> there's no sane way to build a development environment
20:49:47  <andythenorth> I want to move it to pyramid
20:49:53  <Ammler> planetmaker: next task, find 2 newgrfs with same limits where the older has fewer downloads ;-)
20:50:20  <andythenorth> there's nothing wrong with django, but this specific app is....flaky
20:50:34  <andythenorth> and I have no requirement to learn django
20:50:45  <FooBar> me neither
20:50:59  <FooBar> but I also have no requirement for learning python :P
20:51:05  <Ammler> FooBar: truebrain doesn't want to improve current bananas
20:51:15  <Ammler> he also doesn't want someone else doing it
20:51:25  <FooBar> that's annoying
20:51:26  <andythenorth> he thinks it would be a waste
20:51:31  <Ammler> someone needs to make it from scratch
20:51:41  <andythenorth> really it's patched together with string currently, or so it seems
20:51:42  <Ammler> so it could be a php app
20:51:48  <FooBar> why would it be a waste if someone else is willing to do something?
20:52:11  <andythenorth> because the work to make it maintainable exceeds the work to build from scratch
20:52:11  <planetmaker> Ammler, easy: the CS set were uploaded the same day.
20:52:12  <Ammler> FooBar: I guess, Truebrain just doesn't want to support
20:52:19  <planetmaker> Downloads differ by a few thousand
20:52:27  <FooBar> hmmm, ok
20:52:35  <Ammler> so it is easier for him to tell, it is better to do it from scratch
20:52:57  <andythenorth> they patched core django iirc
20:53:07  <andythenorth> patching the framework is then unmaintainable
20:53:24  <andythenorth> because it requires merging back with the actual framework
20:53:28  <andythenorth> hard
20:53:35  <Ammler> andythenorth: who does not patch the framework today?
20:53:48  <Ammler> devzone is patched too and I have no clue about ruby
20:53:55  <andythenorth> patching the framework is usually bonkers
20:54:04  <andythenorth> it's nearly always very bad
20:54:38  <Ammler> I had around 30 patches applied to devzone before it was version 1.2
20:55:06  <andythenorth> so I mean self-written, monkey patch style patches
20:55:36  <andythenorth> only I don't know if they're actual monkey patches, or if they changed django source
20:55:48  <andythenorth> and as no-one who knows wants to discuss it...
20:55:51  <FooBar> Well, I don't fancy writing the whole thing from scratch at this point. As it involves more than just some lists. There's also the authentication bits, upload bits, integration, etc.
20:55:52  <Ammler> what you mean with "monkey patches"?
20:55:52  <andythenorth> no-one will know :P
20:56:14  <andythenorth>
20:56:15  <Webster> Title: Monkey patch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at
20:56:46  <Ammler> okey, I patched the source of redmine :-)
20:57:01  <andythenorth> FooBar: exactamly
20:57:14  <Ammler> yes, that is why you should patch current bananas
20:57:24  <andythenorth> feel free to try :D
20:57:26  <andythenorth> good luck
20:57:38  <Ammler> ah, you didn't even try :-P
20:57:40  <andythenorth> you will need to test your patch by applying to the live server
20:57:45  <andythenorth> which Rubidium won't let you do
20:57:47  <Ammler> you just listen to TB
20:58:02  <andythenorth> hmm
20:58:07  * andythenorth does something else
20:58:10  <Ammler> :-)
20:58:34  <Ammler> as I said, you get slapped if you try :-P
20:59:19  <andythenorth> I didn't get slapped
20:59:24  <andythenorth> just advised againt it
20:59:34  <Ammler> Truebrain should have listen to himself as he spoke about WT
20:59:47  <Ammler> now he made same mistakes
21:00:33  <Ammler> btw. if you ever want to patch devzone, feel free :-)
21:00:46  <Ammler> and I can quite easy run a test env
21:01:22  <FooBar> heh, now orudge is using redmine as well:
21:01:22  <Rubidium> andythenorth: I'd be fine if TB wants to support you in testing patches on the live server, but I rather not support it myself; I've only somewhat fixed some issues, but that was in the time that the testing version worked
21:01:23  <Webster> Title: TTDPatch - Overview - TT-Forums Projects (at
21:01:42  <Rubidium> but that doesn't work anymore since LDAP
21:02:43  <andythenorth> seems like it's quite dead wrt development
21:03:05  <andythenorth> the best technical route would be to migrate one piece at a time, using python wsgi
21:03:20  <FooBar> Don't think it was really worth to migrate the ttdpatch bug tracker
21:03:45  <Ammler> there was none
21:03:49  <Ammler> just the ml, afaik
21:04:11  <Rubidium> andythenorth: yikes... they use wsgi at my company as well. Was a hell as well to set up a clone of the server :(
21:05:16  <Rubidium> (or they're just doing it wrong (tm))
21:05:42  <Ammler> you have 2 repos, stable pulls from stage, what do you need more?
21:05:58  <orudge> FooBar: well, mb would have complained if I'd just killed it :p
21:06:13  <orudge> and he'd probably have complained had I migrated it to the DevZone, seems kind of perverse to have TTDPatch on the OpenTTD devzone somehow :P
21:06:29  <Ammler> it's not the OpenTTD devzone
21:06:34  <orudge> well
21:06:34  <FooBar> yes, but why not have ket the old system around?
21:06:36  <orudge> the OpenTTDCoop dev-zone
21:06:40  <FooBar> kept
21:06:42  <Ammler> :-)
21:06:47  <Rubidium> but... it's even more perverse... TTDPatch *is* on OpenTTD's server
21:06:53  <orudge> well, yes, and has been for years
21:07:06  <andythenorth> wsgi would at least let us migrate some of the app whilst leaving the django thing in place
21:07:14  <orudge> FooBar: mainly, because it's old, and probably has half a million security issues (well, it definitely had one recently that I had to sort out)
21:07:17  <andythenorth> but maybe better to just start from clean slate
21:07:19  <Ammler> orudge: maybe we could migrate the devzone to tt-forums then ;-)
21:07:28  <orudge> well, maybe ;)
21:07:55  <orudge> anyway, at the very least the bugs are now in something a bit more modern, and it'd be fairly straightforward to merge them into the openttdcoop devzone in the future if we were to want to ;)
21:08:13  <orudge> and the TTDPatch wiki is looking a bit better now I've done some work on it, still more to do though
21:08:17  <orudge> here's hoping somebody might actually find it useful :P
21:08:35  <Ammler> do you manage svn auth with redmine?
21:08:49  <orudge> Not at present
21:08:54  <orudge> currently the svn repositories are still on the old server
21:09:20  * andythenorth suspects bananas will remain unsolved for a long time
21:09:24  <andythenorth> it basically works
21:09:36  <orudge> Could in theory migrate those to git, I guess, but it'd probably be best asking the people who in theory actually work on TTDPatch what they think before doing that :p
21:09:37  <FooBar> ok, I see why you migrated :)
21:09:47  <Rubidium> andythenorth: in any case, when it's about the configuration of the webserver you/we need input from TB. He's the one that has configured it all and I don't have much of a clue how to change things in there
21:09:55  <Ammler> orudge: you mean hg :-P
21:10:01  <orudge> Ammler: pfft, I use git daily, I like git ;)
21:10:11  <Rubidium> all I do is kill django processes so they get restarted again
21:10:18  <Ammler> orudge: you need to think of those not using vcs daily
21:10:22  <orudge> well, true
21:10:32  <Ammler> and then hg is much esier
21:10:38  <Rubidium> (primarily because they didn't waste just enough memory to kill themselves)
21:10:49  <Rubidium> which is the reason the server list sometimes looks incomplete
21:12:00  <orudge> anyway, at the very least I'll bring the svn repositories over to gandalf and at least they'll all be in one place (I host SVN for TTDPatch, Transport Empire, and some other random bits and bobs, all under separate accounts on a Zernebok shared hosting server, which is nice :P)
21:12:03  <andythenorth> good night
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21:12:10  <orudge> and potentially we can do something further with them in the future
21:12:38  <planetmaker> sounds like a huge get-together of old stuff ;-)
21:12:55  <Ammler> well, I wanted to migrate devzone to, which now happen the opposite
21:13:09  <orudge> hmm,, I hadn't seen that
21:13:20  <orudge> it still says "LeaseWeb", too
21:13:29  <Ammler> it doesn't work
21:13:33  <orudge> ah
21:13:44  <Ammler> the svn is dead since almost a year
21:14:15  <planetmaker> hm, is it?
21:14:51  <planetmaker> I can still browse the repos, so it's still online
21:15:19  <Ammler> try svn
21:15:23  <Ammler> not the redmine repo view
21:15:38  <Ammler> e.g.
21:16:03  <Ammler> redmine does fetch some date to it's db
21:16:06  <planetmaker> 502
21:16:38  <Ammler> hmm, maybe redmine->svn
21:16:40  <Ammler> works
21:17:00  <Ammler> just direct svn doesn't
21:20:30  <orudge> Night all
21:20:47  <planetmaker> g'night orudge
21:20:50  <Ammler> nightly
21:21:01  <planetmaker> and I should head for bed, too
21:21:17  <planetmaker> So... good night Ammler and all others who're still awake :-)
21:21:59  <Ammler> gute Nacht pm
21:27:06  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 121:6e8e31f51fea: - Add terraforming trys by less money priority (krinn) @
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