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00:35:53 *** Zuu has quit IRC 05:40:10 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 06:46:40 <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Bug #2911 (Confirmed): [NML] Rebuild is not triggered when a new languag... (planetmaker) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2911 07:55:27 *** bodis has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 07:56:50 <Brot6> Unrealistic Trainset - Feature #2912 (New): THE SLUG TRAIN (V453000) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2912 07:56:58 <V453000> pm: is that fine? ^ 07:58:17 <planetmaker> you mean feasable? 07:58:28 <planetmaker> sounds to me like one of the usual articulated vehicles 07:58:36 <planetmaker> (technically speaking) 07:58:54 <V453000> yes, that is what I meant 07:59:38 <V453000> guess I will have to try to code that to see eh :P 08:01:39 <planetmaker> make it one vehicle which can only attach to itself, always exactly N times. 08:01:48 <planetmaker> The view depends on the position within the consist 08:02:30 <planetmaker> I'm not sure why to go for shorter than 8/8 vehicles, though 08:02:43 <planetmaker> (8/8 = half a tile) 08:05:58 <planetmaker> See http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/vehicles.html#vehicles-callbacks 'articulated_part' 08:22:29 *** frosch123 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 08:26:15 <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2913 (New): Sheep farm uses 7E procedure calls (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2913 08:52:10 <frosch123> hmm, is that the frist grf which actually uses 7e? 08:57:06 <V453000> What do I need to have in order to start writing NML code? Or eventually, making it work? Is a text editor such as notepad++ enough or do I need to download some things like this http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#structure ? I thought the devzone compiles for me and I just provide the "text". Is that how things work? 08:58:23 <andythenorth> V453000: you need python installed, and ideally a version control system 08:58:27 <andythenorth> what OS? 08:58:48 <V453000> win7 08:58:55 <V453000> I read 32 bit is recommended 08:58:59 <V453000> ... I have python already 08:59:14 <V453000> but when I opened it it seems to me just like notepad :d 08:59:29 <andythenorth> what python version do you have? 08:59:45 <V453000> 3.1.4. 09:00:01 <andythenorth> iirc, you would be better using 2.6.6 for windows 09:00:07 <andythenorth> planetmaker, Hirundo?? ^ 09:00:14 <Hirundo> frosch123: I guess NFO firs used 7E, and the fact that it needs special treatment wasn't recognized during the nfo->nml conversion 09:00:30 <V453000> oh :) 09:00:31 <andythenorth> I didn't use 7E 09:00:33 <Hirundo> V453000: You need python 2.5-2.7 09:00:40 <V453000> okay, thank you :) 09:00:47 <andythenorth> http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.6.6/ 09:00:48 <Webster> Title: Python 2.6.6 Release (at www.python.org) 09:00:53 <Hirundo> andythenorth: Really sure? It's there, in the sheep farm 09:01:03 <andythenorth> maybe I used it to learn it :O 09:01:08 <andythenorth> or maybe someone else used it 09:01:13 <andythenorth> 7E is stored procedures? 09:01:24 <Hirundo> yes 09:01:41 <andythenorth> maybe yexo used it 09:01:49 <andythenorth> he's smarter than me :P 09:01:55 <Hirundo> "switch(FEAT_INDUSTRYTILES, SELF, action2_7355, STORE_TEMP((var[0x7E, 0, 255, 161] + var[0x7E, 0, 255, 65]), 16)) " 09:02:22 <V453000> jesus it is even written in the starter guide of NML that I need 2.5-2.7 :D 09:02:24 * V453000 digs himself 09:02:25 <andythenorth> V453000: once you get python, you need to get mercurial and install nml 09:02:28 <andythenorth> or vice-versa 09:02:41 <V453000> oh right, mercurial is? 09:02:54 <planetmaker> that's the version control system which gets your files on the server 09:02:59 <V453000> oh 09:03:00 <V453000> :) 09:03:16 <planetmaker> or rather: which keeps track of the changes you make to the newgrf 09:03:48 <andythenorth> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/WindowsInstall 09:03:49 <Webster> Title: WindowsInstall - Mercurial (at mercurial.selenic.com) 09:03:56 <Hirundo> Terkhen: I've traced the bug to an incorrectly calculated action6 offset 09:04:56 <andythenorth> V453000: actually this link might be better: http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/Download 09:04:57 <Webster> Title: Download - Mercurial (at mercurial.selenic.com) 09:05:34 <andythenorth> windows mercurial looks complicated :O 09:05:35 <V453000> I am there, which one though? The Mercurial-1.9 (32-bit py2.6) ? 09:05:50 <andythenorth> Terkhen has a windows version he might know 09:06:11 <andythenorth> I have no idea, don't want to advise wrongly ;) 09:06:36 <andythenorth> what is tortoise for? 09:07:15 <planetmaker> a GUI interface 09:07:15 <andythenorth> oh a graphical client 09:07:18 <andythenorth> how quaint 09:08:42 <V453000> hmm :) I will get back to drawing and ask Terkhen later :) 09:09:04 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #2914 (New): Handling of Dxxx strings (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2914 09:12:13 <Ammler> use Tortoisehg for mercurial 09:12:18 <Ammler> and nmlc.exe for nml 09:12:26 <Ammler> no need for python and such 09:12:54 <andythenorth> Terkhen had some issues with nmlc.exe 09:13:01 <andythenorth> I don't know if they got resolved 09:13:02 <Ammler> yes, pcx 09:13:10 <andythenorth> ok 09:13:26 <andythenorth> so he needed to install pil etc to solve that. But it's a no-issue with png? 09:13:48 <Ammler> exactly, it doesn't support pcx, 09:15:44 <andythenorth> Ammler: should that be documented? 09:16:17 <andythenorth> possibly the documentation could also be clearer about the windows binary 09:16:27 <andythenorth> it would be easy to miss it and start installing python and such 09:17:05 <Ammler> well, nmlc.exe isn't documented at all 09:17:07 <andythenorth> if you install the windows binary, how do you update? 09:17:13 <andythenorth> you can't just hg pull :P 09:17:22 <Ammler> update? 09:17:30 <Ammler> you download newer nightly 09:17:56 <andythenorth> lame :P 09:18:47 <Ammler> it is easier to install linux as installing nml on windows 09:18:56 <V453000> hm >D 09:18:57 <V453000> :D 09:19:04 <Ammler> or the Makefile framewrok 09:19:14 <Ammler> V453000: serious :-) 09:19:21 <V453000> hm :) 09:19:36 <Ammler> Foobar would confirm my statement 09:19:57 <Ammler> Windows is no development system 09:20:06 <Ammler> it is just good for gaming and office 09:20:22 <V453000> right so I am likely screwed until I get linux >D 09:20:31 <V453000> ? :) 09:20:53 <Ammler> but of course, it is possible to develop, if you really insist 09:21:17 <V453000> what do I do with the nmlc.exe_ 09:21:18 <V453000> ? 09:21:32 <Ammler> you unpack it somewhere 09:21:40 <V453000> ooh :) somewhere might be key 09:21:50 <Ammler> then set %PATH% 09:22:10 <Ammler> then you run nmlc.exe in your project 09:22:16 <V453000> oh :) 09:22:21 <V453000> from where? 09:22:32 <Ammler> somewhere 09:22:48 <Ammler> should not matter, if it is in the %path% 09:22:55 <Ammler> you know how to set path? 09:23:02 <V453000> I dont mean from which place, but from which program 09:23:35 <Ammler> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/Setting_up_a_Compile_Environment_%28Windows%29#Adding-everything-to-the-PATH-Environment-Variable 09:24:44 <V453000> yey, a guide, thanks 09:25:57 <Brot6> FISH - Revision 675:381cb65f9566: Change: work in progress on Small Utility Vessel 1 (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/381cb65f9566 09:38:22 *** Zuu has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 09:43:43 <V453000> yey, looks like I succeeded with that part 09:43:55 <V453000> will my computer explode now? 09:50:39 <Brot6> FISH - Revision 676:d6442ccbac9b: Change: name Labrador Utility Vessel (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/d6442ccbac9b 10:17:58 <Terkhen> Hirundo: hmm... those are added by nml, right? 10:18:49 <Terkhen> V453000: I usually download the latest version of mercurial from the homepage, but it does not require python (I suppose it comes bundled with it) 10:18:56 <Terkhen> nml does, though 10:19:18 <Terkhen> but as long as you want to use only png files you can use the windows version with nmlc.exe 10:19:22 <Terkhen> problems come when you want to use pcx :) 10:39:16 <V453000> pcx is useless as I understood so far :) 10:39:52 <planetmaker> it's pointless, yess 10:40:01 <planetmaker> it only complicates things without gain 10:40:51 <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2915 (New): Some utility vessels should be using different templates (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2915 10:42:32 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1564:408e82b4f79d: Fix: Action6 offset wasn't incremented when pa... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/408e82b4f79d 10:44:38 <V453000> [auth] openttdcoop.prefix = push.openttdcoop.org" target="_blank">push.openttdcoop.org openttdcoop.username = <username> openttdcoop.password = <password> openttdcoop.shemes = https What should I change? I figured username and password, but should I keep push.openttdcoop.org" target="_blank">push.openttdcoop.org as it is and should I substitute the https with something? 10:44:46 <V453000> in mercurial.ini 10:44:52 <V453000> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/Configuring_TortoiseHg_%28Windows%29 as this says 10:46:30 <Hirundo> Terkhen: bug should be fixed 10:46:36 <Ammler> V453000: what should you change it to? 10:46:57 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2916 (New): Verify correctness of action6 offsets (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2916 10:47:12 <V453000> Ammler: that is what I am asking 10:47:35 <Hirundo> renum errors should be harmless, I opened a ticket in the NML tracker about them but it doesn't need a quick fix 10:47:56 <Ammler> V453000: never ask on purpose, try and ask on error :-) 10:49:56 <V453000> hmf :) 10:51:40 <Brot6> FISH - Revision 677:960f6e039138: Change: remove unneeded rows from small utility vessel spritesheet (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/960f6e039138 10:58:05 <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2915 (New): Some utility vessels should be using different templates (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2915 10:58:05 <Brot6> FISH - Revision 678:d29a3ee0452e: Change: use correct template for Josephine Utility Vessel (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/d29a3ee0452e 10:58:54 <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2915 (New): Some utility vessels should be using different templates (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2915 11:00:06 <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2915 (Closed): Some utility vessels should be using different templates (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2915 11:00:06 <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2915 (Closed): Some utility vessels should be using different templates (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2915#change-7192 11:08:37 <V453000> hmm, if the guide says go to dev/TortoiseHg and locate puttygen.exe but it is not there, should I just download puttygen.exe from somewhere else ? 11:10:24 *** FooBar has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 11:11:43 <Ammler> V453000: no need 11:11:57 <Ammler> I am sure, it tells you to skip the ssh part 11:12:11 <V453000> oh, okay 11:12:48 <V453000> I thought commit access is the way how I add stuff 11:13:11 <Ammler> yes, but with https 11:13:19 <Ammler> not with ssh 11:14:19 <V453000> right then I have probably everything 11:14:22 <V453000> with just one problem 11:14:28 <Ammler> V453000: usually things are easier as someone things 11:14:32 <Ammler> thinks* 11:14:32 <V453000> (no clue how to launch the tortoise :D) 11:14:54 <V453000> I launched the workbench but ... 11:15:26 <FooBar> planetmaker: OpenGFX+ Landscape (0.2.1) also gives me temperate grass in tropic and toyland... That seems a but to me, should I support that bug with my tram tracks? :P 11:15:57 <planetmaker> FooBar: it only does that, if you select 'temperate' climate, IIRC 11:16:21 <FooBar> planetmaker: yes, but the description says I should only get it in arctic ;) 11:16:26 <planetmaker> the only real odditiy is 'arctic climate' in the openttd desert climate 11:16:31 <planetmaker> hu? 11:16:53 <FooBar> well, let me explain from the beginning 11:17:11 <FooBar> there's this option to have temperate grass (with snow) in arctic, right? 11:17:30 <FooBar> Now, if I set this, I also get temperate grass+snow in tropic. And temperate grass in toyland 11:17:50 <planetmaker> oh... the 'alpine' climate. Hm... 11:18:07 <V453000> Ammler: I suppose the mercurial.ini is missing some things so that the workbench would link with the repository properly, right? 11:18:14 <planetmaker> yes, it has interesting effects. I thought to disable it, but I didn't because I found it funky 11:18:42 <FooBar> yes, snow instead of desert is rather funky indeed :P 11:18:57 <planetmaker> you clearly see there that maritime climate is more moderate than continental one ;-) 11:18:58 <Ammler> V453000: no 11:19:02 <FooBar> so you don't consider it a bug? Then I won't either and just support it :P 11:19:03 <Ammler> just clone the repo 11:19:08 <V453000> but how 11:19:18 <Ammler> use tortoise 11:19:33 <planetmaker> FooBar: it's definitely out-of-the-norm. But I don't see a real reason to forbid it. 11:19:35 <FooBar> V453000: right click in the folder you want the repo folder in > TortoiseHg > Clone repo 11:19:43 <planetmaker> Forbidding it is rather more work and... well 11:19:59 <planetmaker> I'd need to replace roads. But I guess I'll do that 11:20:10 <FooBar> planetmaker: ok, cool. Then I just suggest to change the description from "temperate in arctic" to "temperate in everything" 11:20:20 <planetmaker> of course :-) 11:20:52 <FooBar> V453000: then behind source give the (https) link to the repo and leave the rest as it is. Click the clone button. 11:22:01 <V453000> oooh 11:22:07 <V453000> my brain is just beyond dumb today 11:22:08 <V453000> thanks 11:24:02 <V453000> % hg clone --verbose -- ssh://ottdc@mz.openttdcoop.org/hg-repos/ur-trains" target="_blank">mz.openttdcoop.org/hg-repos/ur-trains running ""TortoisePlink.exe" -ssh -2 ottdc@mz.openttdcoop.org "hg -R hg-repos/ur-trains serve --stdio"" remote: No supported authentication methods left to try! no suitable response from remote hg 11:24:09 <V453000> guess that isnt called success :d 11:24:21 <V453000> oh https 11:24:56 <FooBar> yes, https 11:25:02 <FooBar> then it will ask for your password 11:25:15 <V453000> % hg clone --verbose -- https://ottdc@mz.openttdcoop.org/hg-repos/ur-trains ur-trains URLError: [Errno 11004] getaddrinfo failed 11:25:16 <V453000> :| 11:25:24 <V453000> what did I screw up there? 11:25:31 <FooBar> use your own username, as provided by the devzone 11:25:47 <FooBar> for example I get this for ttrs: https://foobar@push.openttdcoop.org/ttrs 11:25:54 <V453000> ooh 11:26:07 <planetmaker> V453000: ottdc is not your username ;-) 11:26:19 <FooBar> If you go in the devzon to repository, click https, it will give you the correct link 11:26:19 <V453000> I had no clue it should be an user name :D 11:27:03 <V453000> FooBar: that gave me something totally different :D https://V453000@push.openttdcoop.org/misc 11:27:18 <FooBar> yes, that's it 11:27:23 <V453000> says 404 11:27:30 <V453000> % hg clone --verbose -- https://V453000@push.openttdcoop.org/misc ur-trains HTTP Error: 404 (Not Found) 11:27:38 <FooBar> wait, misc? 11:27:48 <V453000> found that weird :) 11:27:57 <FooBar> what project are you trying to clone? 11:28:17 <V453000> uhm, ur-trains? 11:28:36 <V453000> yey 11:28:37 <V453000> success 11:28:50 <V453000> (here you can see how much of a confused beyond-BFU I am) 11:28:56 <FooBar> https://V453000@push.openttdcoop.org/ur-trains 11:29:12 <V453000> yes, that succeeded 11:29:15 <FooBar> Now tortoise will remember that url for you, for when you need to push 11:29:20 <V453000> :) 11:29:36 <FooBar> And everything else you need is in the TortoiseHg workbench 11:29:56 <V453000> awesome :) 11:31:07 <FooBar> Before you commit/push, check if you have set a username 11:31:17 <FooBar> In the workbench, go to File ? Settings 11:31:19 <V453000> in the mercurial.ini? 11:31:21 <V453000> oh 11:31:29 <V453000> well that is from that file, isnt it 11:31:36 <FooBar> yes, that's from that file 11:31:44 <FooBar> if you did it in mercurial.ini, it will be fine 11:31:47 <V453000> yes 11:31:54 <FooBar> good 11:31:57 <V453000> (I finally did something right for once) 11:32:00 <FooBar> :) 11:32:16 <FooBar> Then I'll just figure out for you if you can have it remember your password 11:32:31 <FooBar> Otherwise it will ask on every push 11:32:52 <FooBar> or pull, or basically every communication with the server 11:33:38 <V453000> right so I should type the password into the .ini and tell it to you? 11:33:57 <FooBar> you surely shouldn't tell me you password 11:34:05 <V453000> I guess :) 11:37:13 <V453000> pull asks me if I want to remove authentification info from the URL ... I suppose I do ? 11:38:03 <FooBar> never had that one before; let me try to reproduce that 11:38:48 <V453000> no changes found ... I guess that is because the repository has nothing inside 11:39:16 <FooBar> that seems to be correct 11:40:12 <FooBar> Now you can start filling the repository on your computer, do the commits and then push 11:40:38 <FooBar> Did you want to use the makefile system? 11:40:40 <V453000> so I just dump some file into the folder? 11:40:43 <V453000> what that is? 11:41:07 <FooBar> Oh, they offered you a repo and didn't tell you about the makefile? :P 11:41:35 <V453000> they know how hard it is to configure something with me :P 11:41:55 <Brot6> FISH - Revision 679:71650c85dc35: Fix: white pixels in Sungei Catamaran (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/71650c85dc35 11:42:02 <FooBar> It's a framework that allows to build and package your newgrf from source. It's kinda required if you want to use nightly and release builds on the server. 11:42:21 <FooBar> Unless you want to write your own makefile that is (which you don't want, trust me) 11:42:26 <V453000> :D 11:42:33 <V453000> I trust you :P 11:42:37 <FooBar> heh :) 11:43:10 <FooBar> Are you using Windows? 11:43:14 <V453000> yes 11:43:35 <FooBar> In that case I have to warn you: to be able to use the makefile properly you're much better off on linux 11:43:43 <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2645 (Closed): Graphics for 12t utility vessel (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2645#change-7193 11:43:53 <FooBar> Myself I use a virtual linux in Virtualbox for that. 11:44:13 <V453000> oh :o 11:44:23 <FooBar> It's a bit of a pain to set up, especially as there's no manual 11:44:37 <planetmaker> mv FooBar manual ;-) 11:45:14 <FooBar> planetmaker: my old manual is horribly outdated, and my new "manual" is not a manual, just some notes: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/FooBar%27s_Note-To-Self 11:46:21 <FooBar> V453000: have a look at this, to see if that makes sense to you: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/FooBar%27s_Note-To-Self#Linux-virtual-environment 11:47:06 <FooBar> If not, it might be easier to just give you a copy of my existing virtual machine 11:47:39 <V453000> jesus christ :D 11:47:49 <V453000> (answer is "no") 11:48:06 <FooBar> :) 11:49:07 <FooBar> then I'll wrap the virtual hard drive up for you. 11:49:29 <V453000> yeyy, thank you :) 11:49:44 <V453000> (I wonder if I am going to manage to screw it up) 11:49:50 <FooBar> If you're up to all this, you can download and install Virtualbox in the meantime 11:49:58 <V453000> ok :) 11:51:54 <FooBar> darn, the thing is almost 4 GB :S 11:52:35 <V453000> :D 11:52:44 <V453000> do you have the power to upload it? 11:53:06 <FooBar> I'll split it in 4 rar parts 11:53:34 <FooBar> Although I wonder what is quicker: uploading this, or having you set up everything yourself 11:54:12 <FooBar> I guess this is easier. Plus once it's uploaded, it might be useful to others as well 11:55:55 <FooBar> V453000: when you're installing virtualbox, don't install network bridge and host-only adapters 11:56:27 <FooBar> you don't need them. If you already did install it, it doesn't really matter, but you'll have some additional network adapters on your system :P 11:59:23 <Ammler> FooBar: it is worth to know how to install linux 11:59:27 <Ammler> and it is quite easy 11:59:52 <Ammler> if he got a complete vm, he will be stock somewhere else 12:00:06 <FooBar> If you're willing to be the install guide, then by all means go ahead 12:00:17 <Ammler> also since setup linux is so much easier as windows 12:00:27 <andythenorth> I used linux in vmware when I needed it 12:00:31 <andythenorth> was trivial 12:00:41 <Ammler> FooBar: no need, linux is completely selfexplaining 12:00:58 <Ammler> as said, not compareable with windows 12:01:02 <FooBar> Well, the linux setup itself is not too complicated, its just everything that comes after that 12:01:15 <andythenorth> it's about as self-explaining as OS X 12:01:23 <andythenorth> i.e. it's really easy if you know how to do it :P 12:01:24 <Brot6> FISH - Revision 680:b70f9bbd6c4d: Change: update changelog for 0.9.2 release (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/b70f9bbd6c4d 12:01:26 <Ammler> FooBar: that's the point, that part is so easy 12:01:38 <FooBar> Ammler: what you see here is all after installing Linux: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/FooBar%27s_Note-To-Self#Linux-virtual-environment 12:01:41 <Ammler> you just need to use your favorite package manager 12:01:54 <andythenorth> you don't have a favourite at this point - it's all new :P 12:01:54 <Ammler> <package-manager> install nml 12:02:10 <FooBar> does that give you the latest nightly? 12:02:15 <Terkhen> thank you Hirundo, I'll test it later :) 12:02:19 <Ammler> :-D 12:02:26 <Ammler> well, that was just an example 12:02:39 <Ammler> I don't think, many distros provide nml 12:02:48 <Ammler> just suse & fedora 12:02:53 <Ammler> well, those I make 12:03:19 <FooBar> I must've been blind then; last time I checked it wasn't on fedora 12:03:32 <andythenorth> did I imagine that the repo contains a compiled version of nml? 12:03:32 <Ammler> FooBar: I am quite sure, I gave you a link 12:03:43 <andythenorth> nmlc seems to be there when I pull, no need to build 12:03:58 <andythenorth> maybe I was mistaken 12:03:58 <Ammler> andythenorth: just nmlc wrapper 12:04:01 <andythenorth> ah ok 12:04:07 <Ammler> so you can run nml without building 12:04:18 <FooBar> hmmm, you might need to give me that link again then... 12:04:18 <Ammler> which most here do 12:04:23 <andythenorth> anyway, pull-to-update has been working fine for me 12:04:29 <Ammler> yep 12:04:46 <Ammler> andythenorth: using package manager is just fine to install the dependency 12:04:55 <Ammler> like pil and ply etc. 12:04:58 * andythenorth hasn't released newgrf for so long, I've forgotten how 12:05:12 <FooBar> content.openttd.org 12:05:28 <FooBar> or aren't you there yet? 12:05:44 <andythenorth> new FISH incoming, unless I don't get it done before I have to drive 2 hours 12:06:29 <FooBar> well, it's basically tag, push, wait, download release from devzone, upload release to bananas, update topic 12:06:41 <FooBar> maybe that'll refresh your memory 12:06:45 <FooBar> :P 12:17:38 <Brot6> FISH - Revision 681:388ab8dd7ebd: Added tag 0.9.2 for changeset b70f9bbd6c4d (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/388ab8dd7ebd 12:17:46 * andythenorth wonders if FISH is compatible with previous versions 12:17:48 <andythenorth> probably 12:18:35 <Ammler> according to the version it should 12:18:56 <Brot6> fish: update from 0.9.1 to 0.9.2 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/fish/releases/0.9.2 12:19:33 * andythenorth doesn't really know if it's compatible or not, but maybe users will discover the answer :o 12:20:10 <Ammler> "B" "MINV" \w4 \d0 <-- tells it compatible down to r0 12:22:47 <andythenorth> indeed 12:22:54 <andythenorth> that's probably not 100% true 12:23:04 <andythenorth> establishing the % that is true is boring :P 12:23:11 <Ammler> :-) 12:23:16 * andythenorth awaits volunteers :P 12:24:08 <FooBar> release it, people will tell you if it doesn't work :P 12:24:20 <Ammler> imo, you should use the revision of 0.9.0 there 12:26:03 <FooBar> STR_PARAM_BALLAST_TEMPERATE :Gemäßigtem Gras 12:26:03 <frosch123> planetmaker: did you also discuss yesterday, how costs could evolve over gametiem 12:26:04 <FooBar> STR_PARAM_BALLAST_ARCTIC :Subarktischem Gras 12:26:06 <FooBar> STR_PARAM_BALLAST_SUBTROPIC :Subtropischem Sand 12:26:08 <FooBar> STR_PARAM_BALLAST_TOYLAND :Spielzeuggras 12:26:19 <planetmaker> frosch123, we did not 12:26:22 <FooBar> is that correct German? I completely forgot about these cases... 12:26:33 <frosch123> yeah, because that is not possible with current base cost grfs :) 12:26:46 <frosch123> we need a basecost callback :p 12:26:51 <planetmaker> :-) 12:28:12 <Ammler> why is that needed? 12:28:17 <Ammler> basecost is just a factor 12:28:28 <frosch123> Ammler: but it is constant during the whole game 12:28:43 <planetmaker> FooBar, it's correct, but I think the case is wrong. Gemäßigtes Gras, Subartisches Gras, Subtropisches Gras, Spielzeugland(gras) 12:29:03 <FooBar> yes, I was afraid of that, thanks! 12:29:17 <planetmaker> I'd not add "gras" to toyland 12:29:23 <planetmaker> it's no gras there - just tile 12:29:30 <FooBar> subtropic is sand by the way, not grass 12:29:33 <frosch123> Ammler: take the dbset as extreme example. it changes the purchase costs so that modern vehicles are massively more expensive. 12:29:40 <planetmaker> uhm, yes :-) 12:29:41 <frosch123> but there is no way to do something like that globally 12:29:59 <FooBar> planetmaker: still -es with sand? 12:30:09 <planetmaker> no. Subtropischer Sand 12:30:24 <FooBar> ok, thanks! 12:30:29 <planetmaker> different gender :-). you're welcome 12:31:40 <FooBar> I used to know how that worked, once. But if you don't keep up with that, you'll forget 12:32:18 <planetmaker> :-) sure enough one does 12:32:26 <FooBar> In Dutch it's easier: I can just bluff that and it's mostly correct :P 12:32:55 <planetmaker> well. If I'd try the other way round, trying to come up with Dutch strings... that'd unfortunately still fail horribly 12:33:15 <planetmaker> hm... Maybe I should learn a bit more till next spring ;-) 12:33:24 <FooBar> Yes, that's what I have with German language :P 12:33:38 <FooBar> But I don't blame you, Dutch grammar is one big exception to the rules 12:33:50 <planetmaker> well, German certainly isn't better 12:33:59 <Ammler> frosch123: indeed, almost impossible to start with dbset on year 2000 12:34:18 <FooBar> I don't think there's one grammar rule that doesn't have exceptions 50% of the times 12:34:41 <Ammler> frosch123: but I guess, dbset doesn't do that with basecosts 12:34:58 <frosch123> Ammler: sure it does not, because it is not possible currently :p 12:35:06 <Ammler> :-) 12:35:23 <frosch123> and btw. if it would be possible, it would likely be based on game duration, and not an absolute games 12:35:29 <Ammler> but it is a reason, why some use basecosts to change bandwith of costs 12:35:32 <frosch123> *gametime 12:35:37 <Ammler> and not to change economy 12:36:20 <FooBar> [14:35] frosch123 *gametime > lol :P that was 10 minutes ago 12:37:07 <Ammler> s/>/</ 12:37:33 <frosch123> FooBar: what? 12:37:40 <FooBar> that typo 12:37:51 <FooBar> [14:26] frosch123 planetmaker: did you also discuss yesterday, how costs could evolve over gametiem 12:38:05 <frosch123> i referred to my last line 10 seconds ago 12:38:18 <frosch123> s/absolute games/absolute gametime/ 12:38:19 <FooBar> I thought you referred to that; that made me lol :) 12:38:34 <FooBar> oh, heh 12:38:38 <frosch123> i do not correct my spelling if it does not change the meaning :) 12:39:20 <frosch123> only if it results in not being understandable 12:39:44 <FooBar> makes sense. But it was funny that it looked that you corrected something from 10 minutes ago :P 12:39:53 <FooBar> anyways, carry on :) 12:53:03 <andythenorth> bbl 12:53:04 *** andythenorth has left #openttdcoop.devzone 13:05:03 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2917 (New): Change way of defining grf parameters (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2917 13:11:30 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2917: Change way of defining grf parameters (planetmaker) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2917#change-7194 13:12:43 <Hirundo> planetmaker: good point 13:13:14 <Hirundo> that IMO needs addressing for other things (item ids) also 13:14:00 <Hirundo> Perhaps, NML could output ID mapping to a file (say compatibility.txt) when requested 13:14:19 <Hirundo> then, import that file during and re-use IDs as requested 13:16:55 <planetmaker> Hirundo, itemID is solved, I can explicitly specify them 13:17:14 <planetmaker> only action0 itemIDs are interesting in a compatibility sense 13:18:21 <Hirundo> IMO, manually set item IDs are a bad thing also for non-vehicles 13:18:46 <Hirundo> It only encourages referring to ids by number, instead of by name 13:18:59 <planetmaker> not to me :-) 13:19:15 <planetmaker> I'm happy to assign the number once - but later always to refer by name 13:19:40 <Hirundo> why bother having to assign a number, making sure it's unique, etc. ? 13:19:42 <planetmaker> a workaround could be to introduce a pseude property called "id" 13:20:13 <planetmaker> Hirundo, why? Because I want to make it compatible to <whatever> 13:20:19 <planetmaker> Or to just re-define a default item 13:20:29 <Hirundo> That's only for vehicles, all other ids are nfo-internal 13:20:36 <planetmaker> there's IMHO no sensible way to un-expose the IDs from the programmers 13:20:46 <planetmaker> houseIDs? IndustryIDs? 13:20:48 <planetmaker> tileIDs? 13:20:56 <planetmaker> they're quite external and newgrf relevant 13:21:29 <planetmaker> or you mean they have an override manager? 13:21:54 <planetmaker> But even so, the usual programming (IMHO) goes this way: add itemA, itemC --> version 1 13:22:02 <planetmaker> then add itemB --> version2 13:22:13 <Hirundo> ^^ there are override managers for those everywhere, all IDs are internal 13:22:14 <planetmaker> itemB is of course added in the source code between A and C 13:22:30 <planetmaker> as such ... numbers still should stay. 13:22:46 <planetmaker> And even if they're newgrf-internal. They need to keep the same internal number 13:23:04 <planetmaker> or FIRS 0.7.0 won't be compatible with FIRS 0.7.1 if I add another industry tile 13:23:10 <planetmaker> then oil rigs accept coal etc 13:23:24 <Hirundo> And after a while, you have a list like 1, 5, 3, 4, 2, 7, ... with probably holes in it and such, i.e. it makes little sense 13:23:53 <planetmaker> Not quite. Sensibly you do not remove a number ever. You just disable it from future use 13:23:54 <Hirundo> which is why I would propose such a 'compatibility.txt' file that saves such info 13:23:58 <planetmaker> Or you break compatibility 13:24:47 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2917: Change way of defining grf parameters (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2917#change-7195 13:25:52 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature #2917: Change way of defining grf parameters (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2917#change-7196 13:28:06 <Hirundo> apart from parameters and item ids, (DCxx) text ids might need looking into also 13:28:45 <planetmaker> where is their consistent use important? 13:30:16 <Hirundo> At least in TTDPatch, DCxx ids are saved IIRC 13:31:31 <planetmaker> can you refresh my memory? What are they used for? 13:32:29 <Hirundo> those can be used to set properties 13:32:52 <Hirundo> But I think it's just a TTDPatch quirk, I can't find a trace of it in openttd 13:38:47 <Ammler> those are ttd strings, that is handled via wt in openttd 13:38:51 <Ammler> (afaik) 13:39:39 <Hirundo> No, D0xx and DCxx are both grf-specific 13:40:31 <Hirundo> FooBar: What would be a dutch translation for 'graphics' in "Original graphics by Purno" ? 13:40:59 <FooBar> don't think there's a proper Dutch term for "graphics" 13:41:17 <FooBar> I'd go for "Originele graphics door Purno" 13:42:12 <frosch123> Hirundo: yup, ottd does not save strings 13:42:19 <frosch123> and i am not sure whether ttdp still does it 13:42:30 <frosch123> i remember some commit message that it was removed again 13:42:46 * Hirundo does not remember ttdpatch commit 13:43:35 <Hirundo> frosch123: For grf compatibility, action0/3/4 IDs and layout of grf parameters need to be the same. Anything else? 13:44:12 <Hirundo> hmmm... industry layouts probably 13:44:20 <Hirundo> house size 13:44:27 <frosch123> tram/road :) 13:44:29 <Hirundo> track/non track status for stations 13:44:31 <frosch123> vehicle length 13:44:37 <frosch123> about everything :p 13:44:57 <planetmaker> railtype compatibility 13:45:12 <planetmaker> (or at least it must not become less) 13:45:13 <frosch123> but if you mean pure syntactical stuff, then yes only ids 13:45:30 <planetmaker> airport layouts certainly, too 13:45:41 *** JVassie has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 13:46:05 <frosch123> and the parameters 13:46:31 <Hirundo> engine/wagon status 13:46:36 <frosch123> i doubt you can check the semantical differences of layout changes or vehicle changes 13:47:20 <Hirundo> I'm not sure either, but at least I'd like to grab the low-hanging fruit 13:47:57 <planetmaker> but... to what do you want to compare, Hirundo ? 13:48:15 <planetmaker> previous compile run (only)? 13:48:47 <Hirundo> Perhaps something like nmlc foo.nml --compatible=foo-previous.nml 13:49:39 <Hirundo> I'm not sure, started thinking about it like 10 mins ago :) 13:50:03 <planetmaker> :-) 13:50:23 <Ammler> what about adding regression test to openttd like it does for ai? 13:50:31 <planetmaker> The idea certainly is not bad as many incompatible changes rather happen inadvertly 13:51:44 <Ammler> hmm, openttd isn't able to detect compatibility issues, is it? 13:52:53 <planetmaker> if it could, it'd be easy :-) 13:53:55 <frosch123> it is no much c for that :p 13:54:02 <frosch123> s/no/too/ 13:57:31 <frosch123> Hirundo: i think ttdp actually only stores the mapping of globally allocated textids to the grf local textids 13:57:53 <frosch123> which is not required for ottd, as it stores the grfid for everything 13:58:16 <Hirundo> ah ok, thanks 14:26:40 <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 15:4f9c9be8f299: Feature: (initial) OpenGFX+ Landscape support (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/foobarstramtracks/repository/revisions/4f9c9be8f299 14:26:40 <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 16:da0faa693178: Feature: allow to select each climate manually (... (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/foobarstramtracks/repository/revisions/da0faa693178 14:26:40 <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 17:c61615d9bd97: Fix (r16): rework autodetect feature (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/foobarstramtracks/repository/revisions/c61615d9bd97 14:26:42 <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 18:a170b982992e: Feature: default climate-dependent graphics to O... (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/foobarstramtracks/repository/revisions/a170b982992e 14:26:46 <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 19:754532aa0957: Update: some text strings (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/foobarstramtracks/repository/revisions/754532aa0957 14:26:50 <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 20:c769ec49fdf1: Doc: add documentation (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/foobarstramtracks/repository/revisions/c769ec49fdf1 14:26:54 <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 21:4f802eebb967: Enable nightly/release builds (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/foobarstramtracks/repository/revisions/4f802eebb967 14:27:00 <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 22:4d4fe31ca77c: Lang: some small update to Dutch (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/foobarstramtracks/repository/revisions/4d4fe31ca77c 14:29:20 <planetmaker> sweet :-) 14:29:31 <FooBar> push b-bomb :P 14:31:58 <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 120:dcb71222ebfd: - Add terraforming option so user can disable ai terrafor... (krinn) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ai-dictator/repository/revisions/dcb71222ebfd 15:02:11 <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Revision 23:e0bccf9ce134: Release: 1.0.0 (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/foobarstramtracks/repository/revisions/e0bccf9ce134 15:03:52 <Brot6> foobarstramtracks: update from to 1.0.0 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/foobarstramtracks/releases/1.0.0 15:11:57 <Hirundo> FYI - I'll be away for a few days 15:12:11 <Hirundo> Just report your bugs as usual, I just won't fix them :P 15:12:19 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 15:12:23 <frosch123> have fun 15:12:32 <frosch123> when will yexo be back? :p 15:14:27 <Brot6> FooBar's Tram Tracks - Feature #2910 (Closed): OpenGFX+ landscape support (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2910#change-7197 15:14:56 *** XeryusTC is now known as test 15:14:59 *** test is now known as XeryusTC 15:16:51 <planetmaker> Enjoy your vacation, Hirundo 15:20:33 <Terkhen> Hirundo: enjoy :) 15:34:03 <Brot6> FISH - Feature #2160 (Rejected): Add cost parameters - same as HEQS (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2160#change-7198 15:38:28 <Brot6> SuperLib - Revision 8:3dc8b46f7fd6: Remove debug signs in function that finds airport placement i... (Zuu) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/superlib/repository/revisions/3dc8b46f7fd6 15:38:28 <Brot6> SuperLib - Revision 9:48b4dd244f68: Airport changes (Zuu) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/superlib/repository/revisions/48b4dd244f68 15:38:28 <Brot6> SuperLib - Revision 10:1fab0b2e5c80: better handle when distant join stations is off in Road.Grow... (Zuu) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/superlib/repository/revisions/1fab0b2e5c80 15:46:09 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 15:46:20 <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 112:f0df1842f16e: apply price calculation to tracking table... (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/f0df1842f16e 16:30:17 <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 113:6ab9d6f4aa9d: apply price calculation formula to the wh... (Eddi) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/6ab9d6f4aa9d 16:36:19 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 16:41:16 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:10:15 <Brot6> nml: update from r1563 to r1564 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nml/nightlies/r1564 17:15:02 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 17:19:37 <Brot6> firs: update from r2231 to r2232 done (38 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/r2232 17:21:09 <Brot6> foobarstramtracks: update from to r23 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/foobarstramtracks/nightlies/r23 17:23:37 <Brot6> cets: update from r109 to r113 done (436 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/r113 17:25:21 <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2233:bd07b35fcff6: Fix (r2229): Remove unused switch sta... (planetmaker) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/bd07b35fcff6 17:25:22 <Brot6> fish: update from r669 to r681 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/fish/nightlies/r681 17:25:44 <planetmaker> there was one warning too much ;-) 17:25:49 <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: ogfx-trains (r245), narvs (r37), bros (r52), ogfx-industries (r122), sub-landscape (r72), opengfx (r681), ailib-tile (r16), transrapidtrackset (r28), 2cctrainset (r750), ailib-list (r32), opensfx (r97), ttdviewer (r34), worldairlinersset (r672), heqs (r605), openmsx (r97), basecosts (r25), nutracks (r202), nml (r1564), 32bpp-extra (r40), manindu (r7), newgrf_makefile (r305), 17:25:49 <Brot6> ailib-direction (r17), ailib-common (r21), snowlinemod (r49), dutchtramset (r84), ai-admiralai (r75), swisstowns (r22), metrotrackset (r56), spanishtowns (r10), frenchtowns (r6), grfpack (r279), ogfx-rv (r107), ogfx-landscape (r71), ttrs (r36), source-test (r2), ogfx-trees (r51), swedishrails (r203), grfcodec (r832), ai-aroai (r39), german-townnames (r34), smts (r19), chips (r143), belarusiantowns (r8), indonesiantowns (r41), 17:25:51 <Brot6> ailib-string (r29), airportsplus (r107), comic-houses (r71) 17:27:14 <Brot6> narvs: compile of r37 still failed (#2789) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/narvs/nightlies/ERROR/r37 17:28:40 <Brot6> sub-landscape: compile of r72 still failed (#2892) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/sub-landscape/nightlies/ERROR/r72 17:31:23 <Brot6> dutchtramset: compile of r84 still failed (#2899) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/dutchtramset/nightlies/ERROR/r84 17:31:50 <planetmaker> hm, dutchtramset failed? 17:32:50 <Brot6> FISH - Revision 682:c28fc206f23e: Change: refactor a define to be PCX neutral (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/c28fc206f23e 17:32:50 <Brot6> FISH - Revision 683:9f34ced84737: Cleanup: remove unneeded comment (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/revisions/9f34ced84737 17:32:50 <Brot6> FISH - Feature #1738 (Closed): Revise spritesheets and convert to png for ships using enhanced ca... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1738#change-7199 17:39:08 <Brot6> source-test: compile of r2 failed - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/source-test/nightlies/ERROR/r2 17:43:24 <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: ogfx-trains (Diffsize: 2319), ogfx-industries, manindu (Diffsize: 2), newgrf_makefile, swisstowns, spanishtowns (Diffsize: 2), frenchtowns, ogfx-rv (Diffsize: 4775), ogfx-landscape (Diffsize: 471), swedishrails (50 warnings) (Diffsize: 392), german-townnames (Diffsize: 1), belarusiantowns (Diffsize: 30), indonesiantowns (1 warnings) (Diffsize: 1), 17:43:25 <Brot6> airportsplus (2 warnings) (Diffsize: 30186) 17:43:44 <FooBar> planetmaker: yes, for some days now. Due to change in NML requiring both loaded and loading states in spritegroups. I only used one for the purchase menu. 17:44:35 *** LordAro has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 17:50:47 <planetmaker> ah 18:29:34 <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Revision 85:5deb38bb286f: Codechange: there I fixed it (closes #2899) (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/dutchtramset/repository/revisions/5deb38bb286f 18:29:34 <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Bug #2899 (Closed): DevZone compile failed (foobar) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2899#change-7210 18:30:44 <Brot6> dutchtramset: update from r84 to r85 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/dutchtramset/nightlies/r85 18:39:16 <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2913: Sheep farm uses 7E procedure calls (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2913#change-7211 18:40:08 <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2864 (Closed): Industries have wrong accept/produce cargos (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2864#change-7212 18:41:22 <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2731: All the defines for cb28 varaction 2 ID should be ... (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2731#change-7214 18:44:21 <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2338 (Feedback): Unexpected production changes (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2338#change-7215 18:44:21 <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1849: Unknown property use (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1849#change-7216 18:47:21 <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1849 (Closed): Unknown property use (planetmaker) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1849#change-7217 18:49:51 <planetmaker> ^ I hope you don't mind ;-) 18:53:37 *** LordAro has quit IRC 18:58:44 <andythenorth> fine by me 18:58:53 <andythenorth> that's what I changed the ticket for :) 18:59:27 <andythenorth> I would like significantly fewer FIRS tickets 19:02:03 <planetmaker> I'm not sure about sugar refinery. I might have changed the used template already again to the new universal secondary production template 19:05:36 <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r22700 to r22707 done (6 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/clientpatches/testing/r22707 19:10:38 <Brot6> openttd-vehiclevars: update from r22700 to r22707 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars/testing/r22707 19:13:53 <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Feature #1677 (Rejected): See if some vehicles can be hidden from AI. (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1677#change-7224 19:15:34 <Brot6> serverpatches: update from r22700 to r22707 done (10 warnings) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/serverpatches/testing/r22707 19:17:36 <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of r22707 still failed (#2446) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/32bpp-ez-patches/testing/ERROR/r22707 19:40:12 <Ammler> FooBar: why did you create a new grf and keep newtramtracks? 19:44:46 <Ammler> also don't take the download counter seriuos, it is more age counter 20:00:26 <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 607:0cae0ad09260: Add: source for forklift (andythenorth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/heqs/repository/revisions/0cae0ad09260 20:10:05 <FooBar> Ammler: I wanted to change the title. Plus I wanted to change the grfid to match all my other grfids (such that they start with FBFB). Plus that this isn't 100% compatible with the old newtramtracks and that bananas doesn't allow name change. So it seemed the best solution to just treat it as a completely new grf. 20:11:19 <FooBar> I set the bananas compatibility such that new tram tracks doesn't show up in OpenTTD >= 1.0.0; and the other way round 20:11:46 <Ammler> ah indeed name change is not possible 20:12:03 <Ammler> I was just thinking about id, which can change 20:13:08 <Ammler> bananas really needs cleanup :-) 20:13:37 <planetmaker> so many things need doing... 20:14:51 *** bodis has quit IRC 20:15:53 <FooBar> Oh, and the download stats indeed don't say much, but it's still nice to see something you made being downloaded a lot 20:16:55 * planetmaker downloads FooBar 20:17:14 * FooBar uploads himself 20:17:43 <FooBar> that reminds me to update the forum signature 20:18:01 * planetmaker never adds versions there... too fleeting ;-) 20:19:37 <FooBar> me neither, but now I have a name change ;) 20:20:01 <planetmaker> :-) Fair enough 20:21:03 <Ammler> FooBar: I just mean, if the download counter is high, it means the grf is old, not downloaded much 20:21:17 <Ammler> that number is wrong 20:21:24 <FooBar> is it? 20:21:45 <Ammler> well, my opinion :-) 20:21:51 <planetmaker> Ammler, the download counter is not wrong. It's just not a good popularity measure 20:21:58 <FooBar> Well, I know that if you upload a new version of something, it starts at 0 again. 20:21:58 <planetmaker> as it has no time info 20:22:14 <Ammler> planetmaker: but it just relative to age 20:22:32 <Ammler> it looks like everyone is always downloading everything 20:22:53 <planetmaker> mostly true, yes 20:22:55 <FooBar> so you can't compare with other stuff, but that's not what I tried to do. It may have sounded like that in the topic... 20:23:04 <Ammler> also the worst grf got so many downloads 20:23:50 <FooBar> eGRVTS? 20:23:56 <Ammler> FooBar: I just wanted to get you to ground again :-) 20:24:02 <FooBar> I use that all the time... 20:24:25 <FooBar> Ammler: thanks :) 20:24:39 <Ammler> before I set version limits to my grf, it had such numbers too 20:24:59 <Ammler> also unusabel grfs like old bridges and such 20:25:19 * FooBar thinks it's more interesting to show downloads / time since upload 20:25:30 <planetmaker> :-D My Mars elevation model meanwhile has 75k downloads 20:25:41 <Ammler> it should just sort alphabetical 20:26:24 <Ammler> I feared the high download number was the reason, you didn't update your newtramtracks :-P 20:27:29 <Ammler> or maybe just reset from time to time 20:27:44 <Ammler> Rubidium: could you set download count to null, please ;-) 20:27:50 <FooBar> Not at all. They still worked fine, no bugs. Other things had priority 20:28:47 <planetmaker> oh, such reset is not good 20:29:07 <Ammler> planetmaker: but the counter doesn't tell anything useful 20:29:16 <Ammler> it just tells how old a grf is 20:29:17 <planetmaker> it tells the number of downloads? 20:29:37 <Ammler> so you could add a date instead the "wrong counter" 20:30:16 <Ammler> planetmaker: would you hold your hand into fire for that statement? 20:30:54 <planetmaker> for what statement? 20:31:36 <Ammler> that it counts downloads 20:31:45 <Ammler> I would bet against 20:32:06 <Ammler> it looks like if I download one specific grf, it increments every entry 20:32:27 <planetmaker> every entry? 20:32:30 <Ammler> yes 20:32:51 <Ammler> or do you see a newer entry overtaking an older? 20:33:01 <planetmaker> yes 20:33:05 <Ammler> tell me 20:33:06 <andythenorth> eh? 20:33:11 <andythenorth> just go and read the code :P 20:33:14 <FooBar> doesn't look like that here. I just refreshed and egrvts went from 178596 to 178597 while generic tram set stayed at 168832 20:33:17 <andythenorth> this argument is dumb 20:33:48 <planetmaker> quite :-) 20:33:50 <Ammler> andythenorth: tell me 1 older entry which has less downloads as a newer 20:33:53 <andythenorth> the download count tells me approximately that there are either ~20k regular users of my grfs 20:34:10 <andythenorth> or that there there are ~20k users of ottd downloading content in any period of a few months 20:34:14 <andythenorth> one or the other 20:34:19 <FooBar> I still think that for sorting purposes download/day is more useful 20:34:23 <andythenorth> it would be 20:34:31 <Ammler> well, or week 20:34:32 <andythenorth> but nobody wants to patch bananas 20:34:48 <Ammler> and those who want are slapped 20:34:55 <andythenorth> I've patched it 20:34:58 <planetmaker> Ammler, for instance ECS is more popular than OpenGFX+ Industries. 20:34:59 <andythenorth> I didn't get slapped 20:35:10 <planetmaker> Its entry is newer but more downloads 20:35:11 <Ammler> planetmaker: just give me 2 entries please :-) 20:35:30 <planetmaker> satisfied? 20:35:43 <Ammler> hmm 20:36:06 <Ammler> mäh, the newgrf list has no date column 20:36:14 <planetmaker> :-) 20:36:29 <Ammler> so we can't prove mine nor yours 20:36:35 <planetmaker> of course we can 20:36:38 <Ammler> how? 20:36:45 <planetmaker> look at the ECS release dates and at the opengfx tag date 20:36:47 <andythenorth> read the fricking code :P 20:37:13 <Ammler> andythenorth: are you able to link to it? 20:37:24 <FooBar> If you need dates: http://binaries.openttd.org/bananas/index.html 20:37:26 <Ammler> I don't think you can :-) 20:37:37 <Ammler> FooBar: yes, that proves my 20:37:38 <andythenorth> the django app is in the ottd repo 20:37:56 <andythenorth> the daemon that runs actual downloads - don't know. ask Rubidium 20:38:03 <Ammler> andythenorth: you would need to read content server code 20:38:24 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 20:38:28 <Ammler> ah, so you think the code is right but you even don't know, where to read? 20:38:38 <andythenorth> I think that would answer the question 20:38:51 <Ammler> I think, you guess as much I do :-P 20:38:52 <andythenorth> I didn't say you were wrong 20:39:11 <Ammler> well, the index page with date tell me, I am right 20:39:14 <andythenorth> if you want to bet 0.5 of any major currency unit, I'll take the bet 20:39:24 <Ammler> you can't counter prove :-P 20:39:27 <andythenorth> but I'd prefer not euros or dollars as they are about to be worthless 20:40:17 <andythenorth> Ammler: what point are you trying to make? 20:40:21 <planetmaker> Ammler, what is your frigging argument? You see the upload dates on the page FooBar linked and you see the download counter... where's the issue now? 20:40:21 * FooBar ponders investing in British money 20:40:31 <planetmaker> FooBar, Swiss money ;-) 20:40:38 <planetmaker> But might be too late for that now 20:40:40 <Ammler> andythenorth: basically just meant that the download counter is wrong 20:40:44 <planetmaker> It already rose by 50% or so 20:40:48 <FooBar> nah, not enough risk 20:40:54 <Ammler> it does tell you the age of a newgrf not the amount of downloads, that's all 20:41:29 <Ammler> and the list should not be sorted with it 20:41:43 <Ammler> (also if it wouldn't be wrong) 20:43:03 <Ammler> planetmaker: the download counter is relative to the age, not counting real downloads 20:43:11 <Ammler> that is all 20:43:27 <andythenorth> he could be right 20:43:40 <planetmaker> I really wonder what you mean with 'real downloads' and 'relative to age' 20:43:45 <Ammler> maybe it counts queries, like when you download the list 20:43:55 <planetmaker> every single time you request / download that newgrf the counter goes up by one. 20:43:59 <planetmaker> Try it yourself 20:44:13 <andythenorth> but maybe all counts increase by 1 20:44:14 <planetmaker> And it counts downloads 20:44:20 <andythenorth> an error is plausible 20:44:24 <planetmaker> why? 20:44:39 <planetmaker> Why is then ECS downloaded more often than ogfx+industries? 20:44:45 <Ammler> how you know 20:44:56 <Ammler> you don't see dates 20:44:57 <planetmaker> I see the upload dates and the download count? 20:45:02 <planetmaker> can't you see? 20:45:02 <Ammler> where? 20:45:09 <planetmaker> the link foobar gave? 20:45:32 <Ammler> I see no ecs there 20:45:44 <FooBar> not all are increased by one. Look at some of George's grfs, he has dates in the version number. There you see something from 2010 overtook something from 2008 20:45:45 <Ammler> ah 20:45:57 <Ammler> hmm 20:46:03 <planetmaker> ECS Chemical vector II - 1.1.2(19Jun2011) 2011-06-19 19:16:56 124 kB NewGRF 20:46:03 <planetmaker> ECS Town vector - 1.1.2(19Jun2011) 2011-06-19 19:16:23 598 kB NewGRF 20:46:03 <planetmaker> ECS Wood vector - 1.1.2(19Jun2011) 2011-06-19 19:15:41 166 kB 20:46:13 <planetmaker> and now look at download count. Around 10k. 20:46:17 <planetmaker> ogfx+industries has about 9k 20:46:23 <planetmaker> and was released on 4 June 20:46:52 <FooBar> But I agree that the download information itself is not very useful information for sorting purposes 20:47:18 <FooBar> As indeed the older things are generally at the top and the newer things at the bottom 20:47:30 <planetmaker> certainly 20:47:44 <Ammler> ogfx-industries has versino limits 20:47:44 <planetmaker> But it's not a wrong number. 20:48:07 <andythenorth> the whole front end of bananas could be scrapped and replaced with not much work 20:48:13 <andythenorth> but I would need a collaborator 20:48:17 <andythenorth> and I don't do php 20:48:25 <Ammler> hmm, I guess my first thought is indeed not true 20:48:25 <andythenorth> and some people equally don't do python 20:48:37 <Ammler> it does count queries, instead downloads might be right 20:48:40 <FooBar> I do PHP, but don't do python 20:48:45 <andythenorth> exactamly 20:48:54 <FooBar> I thought the website was in python 20:49:05 <FooBar> otherwise I would have taken a look already to do some patching 20:49:12 <planetmaker> Ammler, no, I simply think it's people re-downloading stuff due to re-installations and so on 20:49:18 <planetmaker> it's at least partial downloads 20:49:22 <andythenorth> FooBar: it's django -> python 20:49:28 <andythenorth> but 99% unpatchable 20:49:40 <andythenorth> there's no sane way to build a development environment 20:49:47 <andythenorth> I want to move it to pyramid 20:49:53 <Ammler> planetmaker: next task, find 2 newgrfs with same limits where the older has fewer downloads ;-) 20:50:20 <andythenorth> there's nothing wrong with django, but this specific app is....flaky 20:50:34 <andythenorth> and I have no requirement to learn django 20:50:45 <FooBar> me neither 20:50:59 <FooBar> but I also have no requirement for learning python :P 20:51:05 <Ammler> FooBar: truebrain doesn't want to improve current bananas 20:51:15 <Ammler> he also doesn't want someone else doing it 20:51:25 <FooBar> that's annoying 20:51:26 <andythenorth> he thinks it would be a waste 20:51:31 <Ammler> someone needs to make it from scratch 20:51:41 <andythenorth> really it's patched together with string currently, or so it seems 20:51:42 <Ammler> so it could be a php app 20:51:48 <FooBar> why would it be a waste if someone else is willing to do something? 20:52:11 <andythenorth> because the work to make it maintainable exceeds the work to build from scratch 20:52:11 <planetmaker> Ammler, easy: the CS set were uploaded the same day. 20:52:12 <Ammler> FooBar: I guess, Truebrain just doesn't want to support 20:52:19 <planetmaker> Downloads differ by a few thousand 20:52:27 <FooBar> hmmm, ok 20:52:35 <Ammler> so it is easier for him to tell, it is better to do it from scratch 20:52:57 <andythenorth> they patched core django iirc 20:53:07 <andythenorth> patching the framework is then unmaintainable 20:53:24 <andythenorth> because it requires merging back with the actual framework 20:53:28 <andythenorth> hard 20:53:35 <Ammler> andythenorth: who does not patch the framework today? 20:53:48 <Ammler> devzone is patched too and I have no clue about ruby 20:53:55 <andythenorth> patching the framework is usually bonkers 20:54:04 <andythenorth> it's nearly always very bad 20:54:38 <Ammler> I had around 30 patches applied to devzone before it was version 1.2 20:55:06 <andythenorth> so I mean self-written, monkey patch style patches 20:55:36 <andythenorth> only I don't know if they're actual monkey patches, or if they changed django source 20:55:48 <andythenorth> and as no-one who knows wants to discuss it... 20:55:51 <FooBar> Well, I don't fancy writing the whole thing from scratch at this point. As it involves more than just some lists. There's also the authentication bits, upload bits, integration, etc. 20:55:52 <Ammler> what you mean with "monkey patches"? 20:55:52 <andythenorth> no-one will know :P 20:56:14 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_patch 20:56:15 <Webster> Title: Monkey patch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org) 20:56:46 <Ammler> okey, I patched the source of redmine :-) 20:57:01 <andythenorth> FooBar: exactamly 20:57:14 <Ammler> yes, that is why you should patch current bananas 20:57:24 <andythenorth> feel free to try :D 20:57:26 <andythenorth> good luck 20:57:38 <Ammler> ah, you didn't even try :-P 20:57:40 <andythenorth> you will need to test your patch by applying to the live server 20:57:45 <andythenorth> which Rubidium won't let you do 20:57:47 <Ammler> you just listen to TB 20:58:02 <andythenorth> hmm 20:58:07 * andythenorth does something else 20:58:10 <Ammler> :-) 20:58:34 <Ammler> as I said, you get slapped if you try :-P 20:59:19 <andythenorth> I didn't get slapped 20:59:24 <andythenorth> just advised againt it 20:59:34 <Ammler> Truebrain should have listen to himself as he spoke about WT 20:59:47 <Ammler> now he made same mistakes 21:00:33 <Ammler> btw. if you ever want to patch devzone, feel free :-) 21:00:46 <Ammler> and I can quite easy run a test env 21:01:22 <FooBar> heh, now orudge is using redmine as well: http://projects.tt-forums.net/projects/ttdpatch 21:01:22 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I'd be fine if TB wants to support you in testing patches on the live server, but I rather not support it myself; I've only somewhat fixed some issues, but that was in the time that the testing version worked 21:01:23 <Webster> Title: TTDPatch - Overview - TT-Forums Projects (at projects.tt-forums.net) 21:01:42 <Rubidium> but that doesn't work anymore since LDAP 21:02:43 <andythenorth> seems like it's quite dead wrt development 21:03:05 <andythenorth> the best technical route would be to migrate one piece at a time, using python wsgi 21:03:20 <FooBar> Don't think it was really worth to migrate the ttdpatch bug tracker 21:03:45 <Ammler> there was none 21:03:49 <Ammler> just the ml, afaik 21:04:11 <Rubidium> andythenorth: yikes... they use wsgi at my company as well. Was a hell as well to set up a clone of the server :( 21:05:16 <Rubidium> (or they're just doing it wrong (tm)) 21:05:42 <Ammler> you have 2 repos, stable pulls from stage, what do you need more? 21:05:58 <orudge> FooBar: well, mb would have complained if I'd just killed it :p 21:06:13 <orudge> and he'd probably have complained had I migrated it to the DevZone, seems kind of perverse to have TTDPatch on the OpenTTD devzone somehow :P 21:06:29 <Ammler> it's not the OpenTTD devzone 21:06:34 <orudge> well 21:06:34 <FooBar> yes, but why not have ket the old system around? 21:06:36 <orudge> the OpenTTDCoop dev-zone 21:06:40 <FooBar> kept 21:06:42 <Ammler> :-) 21:06:47 <Rubidium> but... it's even more perverse... TTDPatch *is* on OpenTTD's server 21:06:53 <orudge> well, yes, and has been for years 21:07:06 <andythenorth> wsgi would at least let us migrate some of the app whilst leaving the django thing in place 21:07:14 <orudge> FooBar: mainly, because it's old, and probably has half a million security issues (well, it definitely had one recently that I had to sort out) 21:07:17 <andythenorth> but maybe better to just start from clean slate 21:07:19 <Ammler> orudge: maybe we could migrate the devzone to tt-forums then ;-) 21:07:28 <orudge> well, maybe ;) 21:07:55 <orudge> anyway, at the very least the bugs are now in something a bit more modern, and it'd be fairly straightforward to merge them into the openttdcoop devzone in the future if we were to want to ;) 21:08:13 <orudge> and the TTDPatch wiki is looking a bit better now I've done some work on it, still more to do though 21:08:17 <orudge> here's hoping somebody might actually find it useful :P 21:08:35 <Ammler> do you manage svn auth with redmine? 21:08:49 <orudge> Not at present 21:08:54 <orudge> currently the svn repositories are still on the old server 21:09:20 * andythenorth suspects bananas will remain unsolved for a long time 21:09:24 <andythenorth> it basically works 21:09:36 <orudge> Could in theory migrate those to git, I guess, but it'd probably be best asking the people who in theory actually work on TTDPatch what they think before doing that :p 21:09:37 <FooBar> ok, I see why you migrated :) 21:09:47 <Rubidium> andythenorth: in any case, when it's about the configuration of the webserver you/we need input from TB. He's the one that has configured it all and I don't have much of a clue how to change things in there 21:09:55 <Ammler> orudge: you mean hg :-P 21:10:01 <orudge> Ammler: pfft, I use git daily, I like git ;) 21:10:11 <Rubidium> all I do is kill django processes so they get restarted again 21:10:18 <Ammler> orudge: you need to think of those not using vcs daily 21:10:22 <orudge> well, true 21:10:32 <Ammler> and then hg is much esier 21:10:38 <Rubidium> (primarily because they didn't waste just enough memory to kill themselves) 21:10:49 <Rubidium> which is the reason the server list sometimes looks incomplete 21:12:00 <orudge> anyway, at the very least I'll bring the svn repositories over to gandalf and at least they'll all be in one place (I host SVN for TTDPatch, Transport Empire, and some other random bits and bobs, all under separate accounts on a Zernebok shared hosting server, which is nice :P) 21:12:03 <andythenorth> good night 21:12:05 *** andythenorth has left #openttdcoop.devzone 21:12:10 <orudge> and potentially we can do something further with them in the future 21:12:38 <planetmaker> sounds like a huge get-together of old stuff ;-) 21:12:55 <Ammler> well, I wanted to migrate devzone to noai.openttd.org, which now happen the opposite 21:13:09 <orudge> hmm, noai.openttd.org, I hadn't seen that 21:13:20 <orudge> it still says "LeaseWeb", too 21:13:29 <Ammler> it doesn't work 21:13:33 <orudge> ah 21:13:44 <Ammler> the svn is dead since almost a year 21:14:15 <planetmaker> hm, is it? 21:14:51 <planetmaker> I can still browse the repos, so it's still online 21:15:19 <Ammler> try svn 21:15:23 <Ammler> not the redmine repo view 21:15:38 <Ammler> e.g. http://noai.openttd.org/svn/ai-aroai 21:16:03 <Ammler> redmine does fetch some date to it's db 21:16:06 <planetmaker> 502 21:16:38 <Ammler> hmm, maybe redmine->svn 21:16:40 <Ammler> works 21:17:00 <Ammler> just direct svn doesn't 21:20:30 <orudge> Night all 21:20:47 <planetmaker> g'night orudge 21:20:50 <Ammler> nightly 21:21:01 <planetmaker> and I should head for bed, too 21:21:17 <planetmaker> So... good night Ammler and all others who're still awake :-) 21:21:59 <Ammler> gute Nacht pm 21:27:06 <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 121:6e8e31f51fea: - Add terraforming trys by less money priority (krinn) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ai-dictator/repository/revisions/6e8e31f51fea 21:37:32 *** JVassie has quit IRC 22:29:29 *** FooBar has quit IRC 22:58:57 *** SmatZ has quit IRC 22:59:45 *** SmatZ has joined #openttdcoop.devzone