Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 2nd August 2011:
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06:04:19  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - Document: PaintshopPro Palette files (planetmaker) @
06:04:19  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - (planetmaker) @
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09:51:37  <Ammler> zip?
10:19:18  <planetmaker> hm, I just attached it and didn't pay much attention ;-)
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14:06:45  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - Document: NewGRF Development Guide for Windows Users (foobar) @
14:06:45  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - NewGRF_Development_Guide_for_Windows_Users_1.0.0.pdf (foobar) @
14:09:01  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 123:2490f6b4a05f: - Add function to handle too weak town rating and raise it (krinn) @
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14:15:49  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - NewGRF_Development_Guide_for_Windows_Users_1.0.0.docx (foobar) @
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16:51:23  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Revision 86:d313155c431a: Feature: Connexxion 5001 (with temporary graphics awai... (foobar) @
16:51:23  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Revision 87:fc83c3a6c1e8: Codechange: make compatible with RC1 (and break for cu... (foobar) @
16:52:07  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Feature #2904: Make compatible with RC (foobar) @
16:53:25  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Feature #2920 (Assigned): Sort vehicle list (foobar) @
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16:55:23  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Feature #2921 (Assigned): Connexxion 5001 graphics (foobar) @
16:56:16  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2856: Sort purchase list property (admin) @
16:56:46  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1561:f98ea92ec0d7: Doc: Improve template documentation somewhat. (Hirundo) @
17:01:22  <Brot6> Dutch Tram Set - Feature #2922 (New): Update translations (foobar) @
17:01:25  <planetmaker> hm, why is nml #2856 mentioned?
17:01:25  <Brot6> planetmaker: hm: #2856 is "NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2856: Sort purchase list property - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
17:02:24  <Ammler> planetmaker: ask the creator
17:02:44  <planetmaker> no, i wonder why brot mentioned it :-)
17:02:54  <Ammler> because "admin" made "something"
17:03:01  <Ammler> like brot says
17:03:41  <planetmaker> :-)
17:03:41  <Ammler> well, I commented it and noticed, I am logged in as admin, so I removed the comment again
17:04:06  <planetmaker> ok, that left me wondering. No change, but a mentioning here :-)
17:04:13  <planetmaker> and everyone knows you're admin ;-)
17:04:23  <Ammler> I removed the comment after brot mentioned
17:04:44  <planetmaker> and I looked after brot mentioned it ;-)
17:05:24  <Ammler> and the removing caused brot to announce r1561
17:05:40  <planetmaker> lol
17:05:58  <Ammler> I was wondering, if nml couldn't simply sort the ids like they are in the source
17:06:12  <Ammler> and not needing another "hack"
17:08:48  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2856: Sort purchase list property (Ammler) @
17:10:40  <planetmaker> Ammler, that's what NML most probably does - if not asked to do differently
17:11:00  <planetmaker> But that might not always be the best order.
17:11:46  <Ammler> it is quite ugly, if you still need to handle the IDs, imo
17:12:29  <Ammler> planetmaker: you don't think, it does sort like the ids?
17:13:27  <planetmaker> Ammler, and then the ugly part is: I add a new tileID for the coal mine. Now either I add it in a separate file at the end of the source. Or all tileIDs change
17:14:09  <planetmaker> so it needs a method different from "order in source". Implicit doesn't work for projects which change and want to keep compatibility and decent source code
17:14:10  <Ammler> and those tiles need to be sorted because?
17:16:17  <Ammler> oh, it isn't about ids
17:16:22  <Ammler> why did I think so?
17:17:16  <planetmaker> of course it's about IDs
17:17:46  <planetmaker> should I make one file coal_mine.pnml. Three month later coal_mine_additional_tile.pnml
17:17:57  <planetmaker> and then we it going on so forth
17:19:14  <Brot6> heqs: update from r607 to r610 done -
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17:20:12  <planetmaker> not having the option to assign IDs means I cannot ever shuffle the source code
17:20:27  <planetmaker> to make it more readable and maintainable
17:20:28  <Brot6> dutchtramset: update from r85 to r87 done -
17:21:04  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: ogfx-trains (r245), narvs (r37), bros (r52), ogfx-industries (r122), firs (r2233), sub-landscape (r72), opengfx (r681), ailib-tile (r16), foobarstramtracks (r23), transrapidtrackset (r28), 2cctrainset (r750), cets (r114), ailib-list (r32), opensfx (r97), ttdviewer (r34), worldairlinersset (r672), openmsx (r97), basecosts (r25), nutracks (r202), nml (r1564), 32bpp-extra (r40), manindu (r7),
17:21:04  <Brot6> newgrf_makefile (r305), ailib-direction (r17), ailib-common (r21), snowlinemod (r49), ai-admiralai (r75), swisstowns (r22), metrotrackset (r56), spanishtowns (r10), frenchtowns (r6), grfpack (r279), ogfx-rv (r107), fish (r683), ogfx-landscape (r71), ttrs (r36), ogfx-trees (r51), swedishrails (r203), grfcodec (r832), ai-aroai (r39), german-townnames (r34), smts (r19), chips (r143), belarusiantowns (r8), indonesiantowns (r41),
17:21:06  <Brot6> ailib-string (r29), airportsplus (r107), comic-houses (r71)
17:21:43  <Brot6> narvs: compile of r37 still failed (#2789) -
17:22:26  <Brot6> sub-landscape: compile of r72 still failed (#2892) -
17:24:10  <Ammler> planetmaker: setting id is not sorting, imo
17:24:55  <planetmaker> exactly. But if it is done implicity, it requires the proper sorting which then never must be touched
17:25:45  <Ammler> and why does that need another manual handling?
17:25:55  <Ammler> that is what I don't get
17:26:12  <planetmaker> how does an automatism know how they were last time, when I swap source files?
17:26:37  <Ammler> why do you swap source files but like to keep old sorting?
17:26:47  <planetmaker> old IDs
17:26:53  <Ammler> ids do not change
17:27:00  <Ammler> as you set those
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17:27:28  <planetmaker> well, yes. We do or can do currently
17:28:26  <planetmaker> <Ammler> I was wondering, if nml couldn't simply sort the ids like they are in the source <-- I guess I mis-understood you here.
17:28:29  <Ammler> so the issue is, if you don't set ids and like to change sorting?
17:28:30  <planetmaker> What should NML sort?
17:28:51  <planetmaker> Ammler, yes, if they're not set - and one changes sorting - then the IDs change
17:29:14  <Ammler> wouldn't it make more sense to set ids in that case?
17:29:30  <planetmaker> one should do it, yes
17:30:00  <Ammler> it just makes the feeling of hackish code
17:30:17  <planetmaker> setting IDs?
17:30:23  <planetmaker> I don't think so.
17:30:37  <planetmaker> They need definition once in the item declaration and that's it
17:30:45  <planetmaker> one can consider it just another property
17:31:24  <planetmaker> And that exactly might be a way to change it: adding a pseudo property "id" to the properties. And skipping the ID in the item declaration itself
17:31:37  <Ammler> setting id is fine
17:31:45  <Ammler> I meant the ticket is about sorting
17:32:13  <planetmaker> #2856 ?
17:32:14  <Brot6> planetmaker: #2856 is "NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2856: Sort purchase list property - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
17:32:49  <Ammler> maybe it is silly sorting of openttd
17:33:21  <planetmaker> well, that sorting property might be nice if the ID order is not a good default order
17:34:34  <Ammler> sorting properity is for id sorting isn't?
17:35:00  <planetmaker> By default the purchase list is sorted by IDs - if that sorting property isn't used
17:35:34  <Ammler> so a qustion could be, does it make sense to sort by ids
17:43:34  <V453000> hmm, any hints on a program to convert iso to a flash? I tried Unetbootin which I found hinted in some guide but it does not support fedora 15 which I downloaded x.x
17:55:38  <Ammler> well, I would use dd, but that is linux
17:56:42  <V453000> I found something on fedora pages
17:57:14  <Ammler> again, just think simpler
17:57:40  <Ammler> how do you think, unetbootin doesn't work on fedora 15?
17:58:09  <V453000> it allowed me to select only up to version 14
17:59:51  <V453000> hm, I guess a Live USB is an USB from which I can boot the system, but not install it?
18:10:26  <Ammler> depends on the livedisk, some support also installing
18:10:48  <Ammler> but yes, the idea is to try it without installing
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18:46:25  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2856: Sort purchase list property (foobar) @
18:53:50  <V453000> hello from fedora :P
18:54:11  <V453000> and it seems like i can install it from the disk as well :)
19:00:54  <FooBar> hi fedora :)
19:02:21  <V453000> hi :P
19:05:16  <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r22708 to r22711 done (6 warnings) -
19:10:05  <Brot6> openttd-vehiclevars: update from r22708 to r22711 done -
19:14:47  <Brot6> serverpatches: update from r22708 to r22711 done (10 warnings) -
19:17:02  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of r22711 still failed (#2446) -
19:19:19  <V453000> hm ... shiny :D
19:50:34  <V453000> hm ... help! :d I am trying to install fedora and I either cannot decide which type of installation or I have some other problem ... I am selecting the Shrink Current System which says "Shrinks existing partitions to create free space for the default layout." which I think is what I want but when I try to shrink the space out of some disk, I try to split like 1500MB, the disk has like 20GB free and it still says "not enough space on
19:57:50  <Ammler> oh, you wanna install fedora on your native disk?
19:57:57  <Ammler> not as a vm?
19:58:46  <V453000> no
19:58:49  <V453000> on my disk
19:58:49  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 611:c4f517044d07: Change: add sprite sheet for forklift (andythenorth) @
19:58:55  <V453000> I have the live disk currently on
19:58:58  <Ammler> note, if you wanna use the buildsystem like foobar exmplains, you should use it on a vm
19:59:01  <V453000> and it has an option to install it normally
19:59:22  <V453000> wait I thought that if I use fedora normally I do not need to vm
19:59:38  <Ammler> yes, but then you do not combine windows and linux
20:00:01  <Ammler> that is not how the foobar guide recommends
20:00:11  <V453000> uh
20:00:19  <V453000> what? :D
20:00:25  <Ammler> that would be how I am doing it
20:00:37  <Ammler> wich might not be what you want
20:01:01  <Ammler> please decide first, what you want
20:01:18  <V453000> well I suppose using fedora would be better (?)
20:01:29  <Ammler> instead?
20:01:39  <V453000> instead of running a virtual machine from windows
20:01:47  <Ammler> using fedora (linux) is no option
20:02:02  <Ammler> that you do in both cases, the question is, do you want to run linux as vm or native
20:02:20  <Ammler> if as vm, please check the foobar guide
20:02:26  <V453000> I meant natively as "using"
20:02:43  <Ammler> so linux only, not like foobar?
20:02:49  <Ammler> which is cool
20:02:58  <V453000> I would like to try it at the very least
20:03:08  <V453000> I do not really have a reason to stay on windows
20:03:17  <Ammler> well, starting with vm isn't worst choice either
20:03:24  <Ammler> ah ok, nice
20:03:40  <Ammler> don't get me wrong, I do have windows too here
20:03:58  <Ammler> e.g. for some special gaming I used to reboot to windows
20:04:10  <V453000> sure I just felt like it is needless to use windows when I would run a vm on it anyway
20:04:31  <V453000> and at the same time I think it could be valuable to learn something with linux
20:04:54  <Ammler> you know, what's a vm?
20:05:09  <Ammler> you would have a real linux there
20:05:23  <V453000> well, sort of
20:05:25  <V453000> but still :)
20:05:29  <Ammler> :-)
20:05:58  <Ammler> I do the opposite, I run windows vm here for some special ms access app
20:06:08  <V453000> :)
20:06:26  <Ammler> and for gaming, you don't need something else anyway, then a reboot is fine
20:07:01  <Ammler> so yes, go on, I guess, you can still use the guide from foobar to install the tools on fedora
20:07:02  <V453000> I havent gamed anything for a looong time excluding openttd, so .. :)
20:07:13  <Ammler> openttd works natively with linux
20:07:14  <V453000> right. :)
20:07:20  <V453000> I know :)
20:08:11  <FooBar> 1.5 GB is probably too little for Fedora anyways. Was the error that it could not create the partition, or that the partition was too small? I recommend at least 8 GB
20:08:25  <Ammler> also it might be very fragmented
20:08:43  <V453000> yeah fragmentation was what I thought
20:08:58  <FooBar> possibly
20:08:59  <V453000> FooBar: ok :) I will leave more space for it
20:09:14  <FooBar> run a defrag and try again; then you'll know ;)
20:09:29  <V453000> :p
20:09:38  <andythenorth> grr
20:09:42  <andythenorth> my mac didn't arrive
20:09:55  <andythenorth> conclusion: don't pay £10 extra for next-day delivery
20:11:56  <FooBar> what's that name?
20:12:18  <andythenorth> :P
20:12:46  <andythenorth>
20:12:47  <andythenorth> hmm
20:12:59  <andythenorth> maybe I missed the 'by 4pm' bit
20:13:19  <andythenorth> only 4GB RAM :(
20:13:20  <andythenorth> lame
20:14:25  <FooBar> well, you should've checked the specs earlier
20:14:33  <andythenorth> :o
20:14:39  <andythenorth> 8Gb is only £40
20:14:41  <andythenorth> hmm
20:14:49  * andythenorth will need to donate 4GB to someone
20:15:10  <V453000> hmm many sources say "no defragmentations with linux" but I assume that works only for linux file systems, not FAT?
20:15:21  <andythenorth> does windows need to defrag?
20:15:22  <V453000> *NTFS or whatever is that win mess
20:15:23  <andythenorth> how quaint
20:15:43  <V453000> guess it is better to defrag from windows
20:15:57  <V453000> let's try :)
20:16:33  <FooBar> andythenorth: not really. I never do it. But there's an option to do so.
20:19:09  <Ammler> you don't need defrag for usage
20:19:33  <Ammler> but the stupid windows filesystems need it to be able to reduce
20:19:51  <andythenorth> all OS have something stupid
20:20:04  <andythenorth> my OS has loads of stupidity
20:20:16  <Ammler> I am not aware of anything stupid here
20:20:25  <Ammler> well, except the user
20:20:33  <FooBar> V453000: the shrink install option should indeed be OK.
20:26:01  <V453000> right, thank you :)
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21:23:21  <Ammler> V453000: install worked now?
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