Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 20th August 2011:
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04:32:39  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 250:97b6f7c7ff39: Codechange: Use modern style callbacks for bulk wagons (planetmaker) @
04:51:03  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 251:256f3b5164e6: Codechange: Use modern style callbacks for flatbed w... (planetmaker) @
05:05:26  <Rubidium> moin pm
05:13:25  <planetmaker> moin
05:14:22  <Rubidium> do I see an Apple binary in that daylength thread? ;)
05:15:07  <planetmaker> :-P
05:15:31  <planetmaker> was time again for that lession ;-)
05:16:36  <planetmaker> but I was friendly... it's even statically linked
05:17:54  <planetmaker> better would have been probably a FreeBSD or solaris binary... - but well ;-)
05:18:17  <Rubidium> DOS ;)
05:18:30  <Rubidium> oh no... OS/2 ;)
05:19:17  <planetmaker> that'd have been a good choice, too, yes
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07:00:46  <Brot6> openttd.grf water-features - Revision 44:7990fd4089d3: Change: tropic green sprites shaded (andythenorth) @
07:13:43  <Rubidium> woohoo ;)
07:17:29  <Brot6> openttd.grf water-features - Revision 45:551484881591: Change: work in progress on tropic desert ... (andythenorth) @
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07:36:37  <andythenorth> Rubidium: the desert sprites are a bit crappy :P
07:38:10  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Airports - Revision 109:4efb329b9cdc: Fix: Concrete groundsprite for commuter airport tower (dnicholls) @
07:38:10  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Airports - Revision 110:90c173153312: Codechange: Replace ne_sw runways with sw_ne runwa... (dnicholls) @
07:38:10  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Airports - Revision 111:aa0bc20c9f0f: Fix: Runway lights did not flash in sequence (dnicholls) @
07:38:13  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Airports - Revision 112:d13ef61eb7e0: Feature: New NE->SW runway sprites for hub airports (dnicholls) @
07:43:23  <andythenorth> Rubidium: all climates are done, assuming:
07:43:33  <andythenorth> - you are happy with temperate for toyland
07:43:50  <andythenorth> - I will redraw desert sprites when I get the motivation up :P
07:44:00  <andythenorth> - there's a glitch to fix somewhere with rapids
07:44:14  <Rubidium> andythenorth: the glitch with rapids is easy
07:44:17  <Rubidium> open rapids.png
07:44:41  <Rubidium> 3rd column
07:44:49  <Rubidium> 7th row
07:45:47  <Rubidium> I think I even made a bug report for that sprite
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07:46:40  <andythenorth> you did
07:48:09  <Brot6> openttd.grf water-features - Revision 46:705bab8b2eba: Fix: glitch with rapids (andythenorth) @
07:50:47  <andythenorth> Rubidium: the sprite 13 issue?  Where do I see that?
07:52:07  <andythenorth> I see this one:
07:54:06  <Rubidium> yes, that's what I meant
07:54:22  <andythenorth> hmm
07:54:24  <andythenorth> what causes that?
07:54:29  <andythenorth> wrong code or wrong sprite?
07:54:31  <Rubidium> the sprite
07:55:14  <Rubidium> second row, second sprite
07:55:27  <andythenorth> found it
07:55:35  <andythenorth> it's a fill f*ckup
07:55:42  <andythenorth> I'll fix it
08:01:08  <Brot6> openttd.grf water-features - Revision 47:3f65f9b49e01: Fix: glitch with NW coast shore (temperate) (andythenorth) @
08:01:08  <Brot6> openttd.grf water-features - Revision 48:36b93805545e: Fix: glitch with NW coast shore (toyland) (andythenorth) @
08:01:08  <Brot6> openttd.grf water-features - Revision 49:5429a9ff7d12: Fix: glitch with NW coast shore (tropic) (andythenorth) @
08:01:10  <Brot6> openttd.grf water-features - Revision 50:a85aa9823f74: Fix: glitch with NW coast shore (arctic) (andythenorth) @
08:03:11  <andythenorth> Rubidium: sorted
08:03:17  <andythenorth> can we tag it 0.1 :P
08:03:24  <Brot6> openttd.grf water-features - Bug #2974 (Closed): Glitches (andythenorth) @
08:04:02  <andythenorth> I'll improve desert when either (a) I play a tropic game with rivers and it annoys me (b) someone else asks enough times
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08:31:50  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Revision 639:e17d75d74f69: Change: loads for helicopters (for Pikka) (andythenorth) @
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10:04:25  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Airports - Feature #2992 (New): Commuter, move depot for better throughput (Alberth) @
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10:48:14  <Hirundo> frosch123: Does this ttdpatch-patch look OK to you?
10:48:24  <andythenorth> hola
10:49:32  * andythenorth wonders what's left to do on FIRS
10:51:02  <frosch123> Hirundo: what's that for?
10:51:07  <frosch123> that looks wrong
10:51:17  <Hirundo> Map the FF -> 00 for procedure calls also
10:51:24  <frosch123> why would you want to do that?
10:51:57  <Hirundo> Because it is done for normal CB results as well
10:52:13  <frosch123> there is no use to do that
10:52:24  <frosch123> and grfv8 even removes it for the normal cb result
10:52:36  <Hirundo> true
10:52:50  <frosch123> calculated results don't do it either
10:53:08  <andythenorth> #2913
10:53:08  <Brot6> andythenorth: #2913 is "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2913: Sheep farm uses 7E procedure calls - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
10:53:13  <andythenorth> planetmaker: can that be closed yet? ^
10:53:14  <Hirundo> I know, TTDP even does special magic for that (bit 16)
10:53:44  <Hirundo> Ah well, I'll just leave it as-is, saves me the work of typing a reply :)
10:54:19  <Hirundo> I'll bug you with OpenTTD patches instead ;)
10:55:29  <frosch123> the procedure already does the old->new conversion
10:55:36  <frosch123> if it results in an old callback result
10:55:41  <frosch123> so your diff would only do that twice
10:55:48  <frosch123> and break it for computed results
10:55:55  <Rubidium> andythenorth: ;)
10:56:11  <andythenorth> ooh
10:56:16  * andythenorth compiles
10:56:40  <andythenorth> with 4 threads, should i be using -j4 or -j8 :P
10:56:41  <andythenorth> ?
10:57:18  <Rubidium> go for -j6 ;)
10:57:29  <andythenorth> compromise :P
10:57:33  <andythenorth> compromising is lame
10:57:38  <andythenorth> extremes are better
10:58:05  <Ammler> you should release it anyway (.devzone), or will Rubi backport it?
10:58:13  <Rubidium> actually...
10:58:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: the usual recommendation is (num_cores + 1)
10:58:26  <frosch123> so one task can wait for the disk
10:58:42  <andythenorth> -j6 seems pretty good :P
10:58:47  <Rubidium> I wonder whether that recommendation is starting to get outdated
10:58:57  <andythenorth> all my threads are maxed at 100%, but I can still use the rest of the OS without lag
10:59:20  <Rubidium> as with small files you might need more disk accesses
10:59:20  <Ammler> the first recommendation I got was 2*num_cores+1
10:59:30  <andythenorth> woah
10:59:32  <andythenorth> rivers in game :o
10:59:37  <andythenorth> wtf etc
10:59:40  <Ammler> from SmatZ iirc
11:00:22  <Rubidium> Ammler: but that's cores, and cores != threads ;)
11:00:43  <Rubidium> threads as in hyperthreads
11:00:47  <andythenorth> I have 2 cores, both capable of running two threads
11:00:50  <andythenorth> i7 or such
11:01:09  <andythenorth> the effect on performance is more than just marketing fluff
11:01:15  <Ammler> also we had to limit devzone building to 1, since the makefile (with nml) is not multi thread capable
11:01:32  <Rubidium> Ammler: then the dependencies of the makefile are incorrect
11:01:41  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I should draw diagonal river sprites :|
11:01:51  <andythenorth> 90' turns is a bit weird
11:02:11  <andythenorth> it's kind of cute, but sweeping turns would be nicer
11:02:16  <Ammler> hmm, I should change that back, maybe that is fixed in the meantime
11:02:50  <Ammler> andythenorth: using .devzone is not just for making release, it does also check, if you published the complete source
11:03:06  <andythenorth> Ammler: you mean I should tag?
11:03:09  <andythenorth> or which?
11:03:10  <Ammler> missing files is a common issue
11:03:15  <Ammler> or nightly
11:03:29  <andythenorth> what are we talking about? :o
11:03:30  <Ammler> I just meant, you should always enable .devzone
11:03:37  <andythenorth> how do I do that?
11:03:52  <andythenorth> is it a redmine setting?
11:03:54  <Ammler> mkdir -p .devzone/build/nightlies
11:04:16  <Ammler> touch .devzone/build/nightlies/enable
11:04:28  <andythenorth> in my repo?  and then add + push?
11:04:33  <Ammler> yep
11:04:36  <Hirundo> frosch123: afaik the conversion is done at the (other) call site of getrandomorvariational, but nevermind
11:04:58  <Ammler> similar if you want to enable it for releases (tags)
11:05:27  <Ammler> (do not copy .devzone from other repos) :-)
11:05:48  <Ammler> except from makefile framework
11:05:57  <Brot6> openttd.grf water-features - Revision 51:df7abed48438: Change: enable .devzone (andythenorth) @
11:07:14  <andythenorth> so
11:07:22  <andythenorth> rivers are never navigable by default
11:07:34  <andythenorth> that might be logical for some, but isn't good for gameplay
11:09:31  <andythenorth> also griefing rivers is ridiculously easy
11:09:45  <Terkhen> griefing how?
11:10:02  <andythenorth> just bulldoze a tile
11:10:07  <andythenorth> cost is £10k
11:10:16  <andythenorth> cost for other player to rebuild as canal will be £20k
11:10:36  <andythenorth> so griefing in MP is trivial
11:10:45  <andythenorth> currently rivers are of relatively limited use as routes
11:10:55  <andythenorth> but that is fixable...
11:11:09  <andythenorth> hmm.  Will towns overbuild rivers?
11:12:10  <andythenorth> Rubidium: the actual river generator seems pretty good
11:12:13  <andythenorth> the rivers look fine
11:12:23  <Terkhen> true
11:12:41  * andythenorth looks for one running through middle of a town
11:12:51  <Terkhen> rivers have a different demolish cost or are they sharing cost with canals?
11:12:54  * Terkhen checks
11:13:01  * andythenorth looks for one that gets wider near to sea
11:13:18  <andythenorth> RiverTypes!
11:13:20  <andythenorth> small, large
11:13:45  <Terkhen> <--- rivers are not mentioned at all here, so I suppose I missed them when I splitted the different water features :)
11:13:46  <Webster> Title: BaseCosts - GRFSpecs (at
11:14:06  <andythenorth> this map has some awesome rivers
11:16:01  <Rubidium> yeah, the algorithm is very realistical ;)
11:16:33  <andythenorth> you start at a spring?
11:16:42  <andythenorth> and build a lake if you can't find sea?
11:17:10  <Rubidium> yep
11:17:40  <andythenorth> well it works
11:18:00  <andythenorth> so do we have enough tile bits to make some rapids navigable?
11:18:26  <andythenorth> I have no wish to turn every river into canal just to move boats around
11:18:31  <Rubidium> get a random tile that has some higher tiles in the neighbourhood, from there look for the closest lower tile (going only over flat or inclined slopes). Repeat this till you can't go lower or reach the ocean; this gives you a few 'waypoints'. Then between these waypoints the pathfinder runs with random costs for the bits
11:19:23  <Rubidium> can't you just place a lock?
11:20:01  <andythenorth> try it :P
11:20:08  <andythenorth> locks are expensive and take up three tiles
11:20:34  <Rubidium> maybe that needs to be balanced
11:20:56  <andythenorth> I'd remove the rapids
11:21:27  <andythenorth> they gain little
11:22:00  <Rubidium> but getting up the a steep hill doesn't seem right to me
11:22:11  <Rubidium> so maybe something in between
11:22:29  <Rubidium> in flatlands they could be navigable, and when it's hilly-ish they're not
11:22:30  <andythenorth> why is a lock three tiles?
11:23:32  <Terkhen> to avoid chaining many locks I guess
11:23:34  <andythenorth> I guess it's to do with boat length
11:23:53  <andythenorth> in (superior realism) ttdp the boats actually go up and down - or so I'm told
11:24:10  <Terkhen> sounds complicated to code
11:24:41  <Rubidium> I have no clue; for me it's just a bunch of raisons
11:24:58  <Rubidium> (the hysterical kind)
11:25:39  * andythenorth suggests to eliminate it
11:25:47  <andythenorth> it's not like there's many grfs to worry about
11:25:53  <andythenorth> epic savegame break :P
11:26:05  <andythenorth> 1 tile dock is perfectly valid
11:26:12  <andythenorth> dock / lock /s
11:28:45  <andythenorth> ooh
11:28:52  <andythenorth> another easy griefing opportunity
11:28:58  <andythenorth> just build a dock: cost £350
11:29:22  <andythenorth> blocks the river
11:37:52  <Terkhen> hmm...
11:38:09  <Terkhen> it says "site unsuitable" for me if you try to place them in a single tile width river
11:38:35  <Terkhen> you can build the dock after you place a canal
11:38:39  <Terkhen> but later you can demolish the canal
11:40:36  <andythenorth> some locations are suitable....
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11:41:26  * andythenorth ponders list of river ponies
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11:41:48  <andythenorth> Terkhen: MP game, latest trunk, rivers patch, FIRS trunk?
11:42:26  <Terkhen> we don't need the rivers patch, just generate a map with it and upload to a normal server
11:42:28  <Terkhen> and ok :P
11:42:39  <Terkhen> <--- ship 1 cannot find a way (using YAPF)
11:42:51  <Terkhen> is that to be expected or it is a bug?
11:42:54  <andythenorth> yeah, that happens
11:43:30  <andythenorth> time to change docks?
11:43:37  <andythenorth> to be flat tiles?
11:43:50  <Terkhen> sounds complicated
11:43:51  <Terkhen> :P
11:44:16  <andythenorth> NewSomething
11:46:44  <Terkhen> wait for airport state machines, and later for their application in other station types
11:46:46  <Terkhen> :)
11:49:11  <planetmaker> frosch123, so, temp. storage has to be initialized? I thought that's done automatically ;-)
11:49:34  <planetmaker> I wonder though why it doesn't occur with every industry then where it isn't initialized
11:50:10  <Rubidium> order of execution?
11:52:21  <Terkhen> planetmaker: <--- values when starting a chain are undefined
11:52:22  <Webster> Title: Storages - GRFSpecs (at
11:52:43  <frosch123> planetmaker: what should it be supposed to contain?
11:52:44  <frosch123> zero?
11:52:50  <planetmaker> yes
11:53:09  <frosch123> nope, we do not zero the stuff all the time :)
11:53:50  <planetmaker> a pity :-)
11:54:10  <Yexo> <planetmaker> I wonder though why it doesn't occur with every industry then where it isn't initialized <- are you sure you're not mixing up temporary and permanent storage?
11:54:19  <planetmaker> quite sure, Yexo
11:54:25  <Yexo> ok :)
11:54:28  <frosch123> i think we zero them once every gameloop
11:54:29  <planetmaker> as for fences all I use is temp. storage
11:54:39  <frosch123> to avoid desyncs, when gui callbacks use registers
11:54:43  <frosch123> but the rest is the grf's fault
11:54:56  <planetmaker> game loop is how many ticks?
11:55:03  <frosch123> every tick
11:55:04  <Hirundo> 1
11:55:07  <planetmaker> ok :-)
11:55:30  <planetmaker> hm... yes, that explains it :-)
11:55:36  <andythenorth> Terkhen: any idea how we start an MP game?
11:55:55  <planetmaker> thanks for the explanation. I'll have to zero registers 0...~10 of each industry then every tick :-P
11:56:18  <Terkhen> it is not possible to use server?
11:56:20  <Hirundo> NML might do stuff under the hood (in the future) that breaks the assumed 0
11:56:27  <frosch123> planetmaker: why do you need those registers then?
11:56:29  <andythenorth> Terkhen: should be possible :)
11:56:32  <frosch123> makes no sense to me :)
11:56:38  <planetmaker> frosch123, they contain "draw fence yes/no"
11:56:45  <planetmaker> and drive the value of hide_sprite
11:56:57  <Hirundo> For example, to make callbacks with multiple bitstuffed return values appear as multiple callbacks
11:57:06  <Terkhen> why can't you store the value when you calculate it? no need to initialize everything to 0 first
11:57:08  <frosch123> yes, but why do they need to be initialised?
11:57:19  <planetmaker> Terkhen, where can I store it?
11:57:21  <frosch123> that makes no sense, you always have to compute the stuff, don't you?
11:57:40  <Terkhen> at the same temporary registers you are using now
11:57:40  <planetmaker> tiles have no perm. registers
11:57:53  <Hirundo> they can access industry perm registers
11:58:03  <planetmaker> they're all taken except one or two
11:58:15  <planetmaker> and for an industry with 10 tiles or so... that'd be 40 states
11:58:33  <frosch123> planetmaker: tiles have animation state
11:58:40  <frosch123> that is effectively a persistent register
11:58:48  <planetmaker> true
11:58:54  <andythenorth> what if it's being used for animation?
11:59:12  <frosch123> anyway, how does that relate to initialising them?
11:59:21  <planetmaker> not :-) I can initialse them
11:59:31  <frosch123> i still don't get it?
11:59:35  <planetmaker> I just did not do in the cases where no fences should be drawn at all
11:59:43  <frosch123> why are you reading the register if you have not assigned it yet?
11:59:55  <planetmaker> template-lazyness
12:00:04  <planetmaker> and the assumption that they *are* zeroed
12:00:11  <planetmaker> mostly the latter
12:00:19  <planetmaker> so it's a non-issue now that I know :-)
12:00:19  <andythenorth> how many registers are you using?
12:00:43  <frosch123> do you optionally pass stuff to the template?
12:00:48  <planetmaker> andythenorth, 4 for yes/no, 4 for sprite, 4 for offsets
12:00:52  <planetmaker> per tile
12:01:07  <andythenorth> you can't bit stuff?
12:01:11  <planetmaker> frosch123, the template always assumes all those parameters being valid. mostly the 4 yes/no
12:01:16  <planetmaker> andythenorth, what's the gain?
12:01:25  <andythenorth> you look smarter?
12:01:26  <andythenorth> :P
12:01:31  <planetmaker> I don't care :-P
12:01:33  <andythenorth> and it's harder to work with?
12:01:35  <planetmaker> ops is the same
12:03:26  <planetmaker> <Terkhen> why can't you store the value when you calculate it? no need to initialize everything to 0 first <-- I do that. But in the case I do not want fences, I need to communicate that to the template, too. Which requires an initialization with 0
12:03:48  <Terkhen> can't you use an alternative switch chain?
12:04:05  <planetmaker> I can use alternative templates
12:04:13  <planetmaker> but that'd duplicate the templates somewhat
12:04:19  <planetmaker> hm...
12:04:21  <planetmaker> maybe not
12:04:40  <andythenorth> in my newgrf experience, duplication doesn't kill kittens
12:04:47  <planetmaker> that'd be better than initialise registers always
12:04:54  <andythenorth> and duplication often makes for simpler code overall
12:17:50  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2507 (Rejected): Production at Sugar Refinery when small amo... (andythenorth) @
12:20:13  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2913 (Closed): Sheep farm uses 7E procedure calls (andythenorth) @
12:23:01  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Code Review #2902 (Closed): Check production template for sugar r... (planetmaker) @
12:29:38  <andythenorth> planetmaker: #2986 ?
12:29:38  <Brot6> andythenorth: planetmaker: #2986 is "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Code Review #2986: Merge tiles of industries with more than one tile(?) - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
12:29:58  <andythenorth> I think that's the only non-drawing ticket left
12:30:15  <planetmaker> maybe...
12:30:30  <andythenorth> most everything else for 0.7 involves me drawing stuff
12:30:35  <planetmaker> But did I mis-understand yesterday that prior to 0.7 many other things should be done an shipped than those few tickets?
12:30:56  <andythenorth> we could pull in new stuff
12:31:12  <andythenorth> but I was going to finish these and ship:
12:31:22  <andythenorth>
12:32:33  <Terkhen> snow sprites, nice :)
12:32:34  <planetmaker> hm... add "water mill graphics for grain mill" please :-)
12:32:42  <andythenorth> we have rivers....
12:33:07  <andythenorth> add the ticket ;)
12:33:11  <andythenorth> I know how to draw it
12:33:18  <andythenorth> it will need limited location
12:33:22  <planetmaker> new ticket or amend ticket?
12:33:27  <andythenorth> new
12:33:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth, the location limitation is very easy
12:33:35  <planetmaker> I'll add it then
12:33:50  <planetmaker> might be even possible with current templates, I don't exactly recall
12:34:02  <planetmaker> hm.. not possible. No river checks :-)
12:34:19  <michi_cc> Terkhen: There's Action 3, Feature 5, ID 4 which we don't support right now for docks.
12:34:24  <andythenorth> #2497
12:34:24  <Brot6> andythenorth: #2497 is "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2497: Duplicate custom station names - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
12:34:28  <andythenorth> worth fixing ? ^
12:34:43  <planetmaker> yes
12:34:49  <michi_cc> Translation: ID 4 are flat dock tiles.
12:35:15  <andythenorth> :o
12:35:40  <Terkhen> hmm... but it does not mention normal docks
12:35:53  <planetmaker> hm... never seen that
12:36:30  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2993 (New): Water mill graphics for grain mill (planetmaker) @
12:37:39  <michi_cc> Normal docks are just Action A I suppose. CB 147 is not available for ID 4 according to the docs either.
12:37:48  <andythenorth> Terkhen: planetmaker I moved a few more code tickets to 0.7 :)  "in case you get bored"
12:38:13  <planetmaker> lol :-)
12:39:00  <Terkhen> <--- except #2986 they all look like sprite magic... I can't help you much there
12:39:00  <Brot6> Terkhen: http: #2986 is "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Code Review #2986: Merge tiles of industries with more than one tile(?) - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
12:39:46  <andythenorth> Terkhen: #2358 ?
12:39:46  <Brot6> andythenorth: Terkhen: #2358 is "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2358: Fishing Harbour ramp tile flickering - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
12:40:15  <planetmaker> #2726 is also code
12:40:15  <Brot6> planetmaker: #2726 is "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2726: Control CC for Recycling Plant, Sugar Refinery - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
12:40:29  <andythenorth> yes
12:40:34  <Terkhen> I have no idea on how to solve that flickering thing besides removing stuff :P
12:40:47  <andythenorth> 2726  depends on me finishing those industries first
12:40:50  <andythenorth> Terkhen: me neither :P
12:40:59  <andythenorth> it exceeds a bounding box somewhere
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13:09:19  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2477:a4158fbb516c: Change: no need for custom build spec... (Ammler) @
13:10:19  <Ammler> the default build script does now check for scripts/check_language and then runs the script to all files
13:10:35  <Terkhen> nice :)
13:10:40  <Ammler> example:
13:11:23  <Terkhen> that thing is telling me that I have a lot of work to do, though :P
13:12:55  <planetmaker> sweet, thanks, Ammler :-)
13:13:06  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2478:10b3ebc27393: Change: snow in psd for Bakery (andythenorth) @
13:13:47  <planetmaker> Ammler, can you add a new line between "missing" and "need update"?
13:16:23  <andythenorth> anyone want to slice this?
13:16:28  <andythenorth> (I can export layers for snow)
13:16:28  <Ammler> planetmaker: such requests go to Terkhen :-P
13:16:42  <andythenorth> I think it needs the sprite sheet re-arranging
13:17:01  <Ammler> well, and also the credits :-P
13:17:02  <andythenorth> I could draw some more snow instead of fooling with sprites
13:19:04  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - Revision 150:5b5c1ab0f9d1: [Compiler] Fix: let build fail, if patches don't... (Ammler) @
13:19:04  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - Revision 151:ea3d69c978ea: [Compiler] Feature: optional support for check_l... (Ammler) @
13:22:21  <Terkhen> planetmaker: <--- something like this?
13:23:32  <planetmaker> andythenorth, it'd be preferential, if the ground snow and building snow could be separate
13:23:41  <andythenorth> they can be
13:23:41  <planetmaker> And ground snow should only show the difference to a default snow tile
13:23:59  <planetmaker> makes it better blend in :-)
13:24:00  <andythenorth> there are two snow layers for that building currently
13:24:04  <planetmaker> ok
13:24:28  <andythenorth> you can open layered psd?
13:24:46  <planetmaker> mostly I think the snow on the ground could be left out and only the icy rim of the flower beed(?) would suffice
13:24:49  <planetmaker> yes, I have it open
13:25:13  <planetmaker> like, consider you draw already on a snowy ground
13:25:41  <planetmaker> (instead of the concrete in summer)
13:27:51  <planetmaker> andy, did you ever consider to create a TTD-grid overlay?
13:28:00  <andythenorth> ?
13:28:07  <planetmaker> as separate layer it'd help a lot in cutting sprites :-)
13:28:21  <andythenorth> there is one of sorts used in my site
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13:41:05  <andythenorth> hg is veeeeeeery slow on devzone right now :o
13:41:15  <Rubidium> I doubt they'll hear you
13:41:26  <Rubidium> I expect more to ping timeout soon
13:41:29  <andythenorth> me too
13:41:32  <andythenorth> :P
13:42:15  <Brot6> Unable to connect to execution expired
13:42:46  <planetmaker> we do
13:42:58  <planetmaker> at least I still do :-)
13:43:21  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2479:df8da1a80de6: Change: remove a slice in source file (andythenorth) @
13:43:21  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2480:073a4422e4d0: Change: work in progress on snow for ... (andythenorth) @
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13:44:19  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2994 (New): Glassworks or textile mill not respecting spacin... (andythenorth) @
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13:45:11  <planetmaker> andythenorth, ALL industries?
13:45:18  <andythenorth> checking...
13:45:28  <andythenorth> yes, all industries iirc
13:45:32  <andythenorth> it was templated in nfo
13:45:36  <planetmaker> no, I mean *should* ALL industries?
13:45:41  <andythenorth> :)
13:45:50  <andythenorth> that would need a check of the nfo
13:45:52  <planetmaker> I somehow replicated what I found and I'm sure not all had that switch
13:46:03  <planetmaker> I know that I didn't add it to all
13:46:05  <andythenorth> some industries don't implement it as they are still using TTD original industry layout etc
13:46:11  <andythenorth> all others should use it
13:46:28  <planetmaker> it's an industry thing... so they could probably use that, too... But I'll need to check
13:47:05  <planetmaker> hm, no it's tile. So yes, only new ones
13:47:36  <andythenorth> I / we can reimplement default layouts for 0.8
13:47:42  <andythenorth> you have them from opengfx+ ?
13:47:57  <planetmaker> well, all graphics are there, yes
13:49:13  <planetmaker> also builder's yard?
13:49:24  <planetmaker> nvm... it has it
13:49:41  <andythenorth> I can't think of any that shouldn't do it
13:50:23  * planetmaker thinks of farms and forests and plantations
13:50:49  <andythenorth> should still space
13:52:04  <Terkhen> planetmaker: <-- is this what you asked for?
13:54:22  <planetmaker> yes :-)
13:54:30  <planetmaker> makes it clearer what is wrong by section
13:55:09  <Terkhen> ok :)
13:55:26  <planetmaker> thank you :-)
13:58:21  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2481:31115c48b295: Change: Add spacer lines to the langu... (Terkhen) @
13:59:36  <planetmaker> andythenorth, dredging sites?
13:59:43  <andythenorth> spacing?
13:59:48  <planetmaker> yup
13:59:51  <andythenorth> hmm
14:00:01  <andythenorth> a cluster of them will block ship routes
14:00:03  <andythenorth> no harm to space them
14:01:34  <planetmaker> fishing grounds cannot, though ;-)
14:01:36  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2482:e1247369fcb9: Change: work in progress on snow for ... (andythenorth) @
14:01:39  <planetmaker> so I'll leave it out there
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14:11:02  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2483:0d87d0742cbe: Change: snow complete in source psd f... (andythenorth) @
14:12:11  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2755: Grain Mill snow sprites need finishing (andythenorth) @
14:12:11  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #2821: Snow graphics for Glass Works (andythenorth) @
14:12:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: Terkhen #476 is also a code ticket
14:12:50  <Brot6> andythenorth: planetmaker: #476 is "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #476: Windmill graphics for Grain Mill - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
14:13:00  <andythenorth> it was mislabelled
14:13:27  <Terkhen> so the sprites are already in the repo?
14:13:35  <planetmaker> food market, fishing harbour, hardware store, hotel, petrol pump now have no industry proximity check
14:13:40  <planetmaker> and I think those don't need it
14:13:51  <andythenorth> they're probably fine
14:14:01  <andythenorth> and they're controlled mostly by the special flag anyway
14:14:08  <andythenorth> adding cb28 / 2f to that is messy
14:14:29  <andythenorth> I'd leave them unless we see problems in test games :)
14:15:07  <andythenorth> Terkhen: the windmill sprites are already in the repo + used in game
14:15:44  <Terkhen> I don't understand the task then
14:15:59  <Terkhen> it only needs date limits then?
14:16:07  <andythenorth> date limits only
14:16:11  <andythenorth> but they're a pita
14:16:24  <andythenorth> hence not doing it yet :P
14:16:36  <Terkhen> I'd need to know the date limits, I'm not good at figuring those myself
14:16:45  <Terkhen> but I can code it once I'm done watching series for today
14:16:52  <planetmaker> date limits for building an industry?
14:16:55  <andythenorth> yes
14:17:02  <planetmaker> Just define MIN_YEAR and MAX_YEAR in the file. Done
14:17:08  <planetmaker> :-)
14:17:11  <Terkhen> for the industry or for certain layouts of the industry?
14:17:11  <andythenorth> but using cb28 to control layouts by date
14:17:18  <andythenorth> not cb22
14:17:19  <planetmaker> oh.
14:17:21  <andythenorth> :)
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14:17:57  <Terkhen> I don't know about callback numbers, just tell me what needs to be done :P
14:19:18  <andythenorth> prevent construction of brick grain mill before 1870
14:19:29  <andythenorth> prevent construction of windmill after 1900
14:19:38  <Terkhen> those are different layouts of the grain mill?
14:19:39  <andythenorth> but when generating map, allow both
14:19:45  <andythenorth> yes different layouts
14:19:50  <Terkhen> ok, I'll look into it :)
14:20:15  <andythenorth> the aim is even if you generate map in 1970, you get a windmill or so - for 'hysterical raisins'
14:20:34  <andythenorth> if you feel really clever, you could limit the amount of windmills on the map after 1900
14:20:39  <planetmaker> it's basically a placement check for the industry is it?
14:20:42  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #476: Windmill variation for Grain Mill (Terkhen) @
14:20:43  <andythenorth> by using cb67 or such with a layout number
14:20:48  <planetmaker> like location_check callback?
14:20:48  <andythenorth> yes, it's a placement check
14:20:51  <Terkhen> limit the amount why?
14:21:02  <andythenorth> Terkhen: too many windmills in 1970 would be silly?
14:21:06  <andythenorth> most got demolished
14:21:24  <andythenorth> detail :P
14:21:26  <Terkhen> hmm... I see
14:21:30  <andythenorth> not essential
14:21:35  <planetmaker> andythenorth, just close down :-P
14:21:39  <Terkhen> I'll look into it too
14:21:43  <andythenorth> planetmaker: no closure :P
14:21:47  <planetmaker> :-)
14:22:54  <planetmaker> Terkhen, I suggest to add a macro along the lines of CHECK_LAYOUT(switchname, layout, min_year, max_year, switch_in_range, switch_out_range)
14:23:06  <planetmaker> that'd be consistent with other location_check macros :-)
14:23:15  <Terkhen> first the code, later the macro :P
14:23:27  <Terkhen> but yes, a code like this should be templated
14:23:35  <Terkhen> it might make sense to use it in similar cases
14:23:41  <andythenorth> there will be similar cases
14:23:47  <andythenorth> e.g. store / supermarket
14:25:00  <planetmaker> actually CHECK_LAYOUT_YEARS might be the better name ;-)
14:28:30  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2994 (Closed): Glassworks or textile mill not respecting spa... (andythenorth) @
14:28:30  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2484:4d7e1451553a: Fix #2994: Add spacing restriction to... (planetmaker) @
14:28:30  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #2994 (Closed): Glassworks or textile mill not respecting spa... (planetmaker) @
14:28:40  <andythenorth> \o/
14:29:20  <Terkhen> :P
14:29:49  <planetmaker> textile mill respected spacing ;-9
14:30:00  <planetmaker> glass work just came latter for a cozy get-together
14:35:59  <andythenorth> based on remaining work, I think we can release 0.7 in next 10 days or so
14:36:17  <andythenorth> I have two big chunks of work to do - Sugar Refinery + Recycling Plant
14:36:23  <planetmaker> don't expect significant work from me in the next 7 days ;-)
14:37:26  <andythenorth> np
14:37:32  <andythenorth> I am in no rush to release
14:37:42  <andythenorth> I would like to make sure we don't piss off translators too much as well
14:37:55  <planetmaker> then ask for translations now...
14:37:59  <andythenorth> maybe we point translators to a stable nightly?
14:38:20  <planetmaker> what is a stable nightly?
14:38:31  <andythenorth> candidate release then?
14:38:39  <andythenorth> we're probably not save-game safe yet.  The recycling plant + sugar refinery layouts will change
14:40:50  <planetmaker> will they? :-)
14:41:03  <planetmaker> Why not just add?
14:42:58  <planetmaker> hm... that calls for the template DISALLOW_LAYOUT(switchname, layoutname, next_switch_name) ;-)
14:47:23  <andythenorth> need to remove old layouts (or ban them from construction with cb28)
14:47:27  <andythenorth> leaving them is cruft
14:47:31  <andythenorth> we break savegame anyway
14:47:33  <andythenorth> bbl
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14:59:58  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 150:2a8b0adf4cef: - Add new function to handle specific trains route (see r... (krinn) @
14:59:58  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 151:e013fd772057: - ... (krinn) @
15:00:19  <FooBar> planetmaker: these NML specs on the newgrf-specs wiki, is this intended to eventually replace the documentation that is shipped with NML?
15:01:23  <planetmaker> yes, eventually
15:01:44  <planetmaker> after some discussion it was decidec that NML pages should all go into the NML namespace there
15:01:52  <FooBar> cool, maybe I can help fill it whenever I feel bored :)
15:02:04  <planetmaker> sweet :-)
15:02:15  <planetmaker> please, feel free :-)
15:02:23  <planetmaker> The main index is there, but nothing else
15:02:24  <FooBar> that is not right now, but I just saw the link in the wiki
15:02:47  <FooBar> I thought it was better to ask if it will become something official
15:03:11  <FooBar> since it is, it is worth the effort and put some time into it
15:03:12  <planetmaker> yep. We considered a separate one as we were not sure to mix it with the official nfo specs
15:03:31  <planetmaker> but the final decision was to put all developer info in that wiki
15:03:36  <planetmaker> just in separate namespaces
15:03:47  <FooBar> well, it's called newgrf-specs and not nfo-specs wiki. So I think it's a good idea to have both in the same thing
15:04:17  <planetmaker> well, technically, nml is just a compiler and doesn't specify newgrfs ;-)
15:04:37  <planetmaker> but yes...
15:04:40  <FooBar> yes, I guess that's true
15:05:00  <FooBar> but from a user pov, it's logical to have both in the same place
15:05:35  <FooBar> also easier to reference some things in the NFO specs, like railtype label, cargo label pages
15:06:16  <Ammler> maybe get ride of "-specs" in the domain
15:06:44  <planetmaker> yes... the nfo specs are special, though. They're the definition of how the TTD programme(s) itself should work
15:07:33  * FooBar ponders html2wiki
15:07:58  <planetmaker> hm...
15:08:18  <planetmaker> if that works, I sh/could use my bot account for that
15:08:34  <planetmaker> or anotherone could use a bot ;-)
15:08:42  <FooBar> heh :)
15:08:42  <planetmaker> there's a nice bot API for the wiki
15:08:58  <planetmaker> I did much of the tikiwiki -> mediawiki fixes via bot script
15:09:12  <planetmaker> you'll find pmbot often in the (early) history
15:10:01  <planetmaker>
15:10:02  <Webster> Title: pywikipedia - Revision 9440: /trunk/pywikipedia (at
15:10:33  <planetmaker> and
15:10:50  <planetmaker> the two family .py  files might be especially interesting for usage
15:12:39  <FooBar> this appears to be something that needs to be installed on the webserver
15:14:40  <FooBar> might be quicker to just install it locally, convert all files and then do some copy-pasting
15:41:10  <planetmaker> FooBar: nope, it runs locally on your machine
15:41:21  <planetmaker> it accesses the wiki via api
15:41:31  <planetmaker> and can download and upload things through that
15:42:03  <planetmaker> it's like a script doing the editing for your
15:42:05  <planetmaker> -r
15:42:39  <planetmaker> or whatever other work needs doing.
15:42:45  <planetmaker> still from your machine
15:42:54  <planetmaker> and under your name ;-)
15:43:41  <planetmaker> for testing it's ok to use the normal account. If you want to do many automated edits or uploads, a special bot account is better as it has less restrictions on edits per time ;-)
15:43:51  <planetmaker> *special approved bot account
15:44:04  <planetmaker> that's the only reason for the account pmbot to exist
15:54:02  <Ammler> Rubidium: now your excuse with missing river graphs is obsolete for ingame rivers ;-)
15:54:27  <planetmaker> Ammler: that's why they're added to map generation ;-)
15:54:37  <Ammler> that was already possible before
15:54:49  <planetmaker> eh?
15:54:51  <Ammler> sceanrio editor
15:55:00  <Ammler> but the big issue is missing rivers ingame
15:55:01  <planetmaker> autogeneration
15:55:43  <Ammler> and the excuse was that there are no graphics for
15:56:11  <planetmaker> that was the excuse for river generation in auto-map-generation
15:56:35  <Ammler> well, anyway, would be nice if that would be possible
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16:03:52  <frosch123> lol
16:04:24  <andythenorth> lol?
16:32:44  * andythenorth spots the dumbass mistake with glassworks snow
16:32:51  <andythenorth> snow *under* the roof of a shed
16:33:21  <planetmaker> :-) special wind conditions, I guess
16:34:23  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2485:2eb0200bb990: Fix: stupid mistake with snow being d... (andythenorth) @
16:39:28  <Ammler> :-)
16:39:38  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #2987: glitch with food processor (oberhuemer) @
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17:02:32  <andythenorth> hmm
17:02:37  <andythenorth> aluminium plant is broken
17:02:44  * andythenorth investigates
17:09:11  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2486:cf915cbfd9c6: Change: improve appearance of stockpi... (andythenorth) @
17:11:11  <Rubidium> andythenorth: it's just making transparent aluminium
17:14:44  <planetmaker> hm... recycling plant is also somewhat broken. Flat tiles. But at different heights ;-)
17:14:48  <planetmaker> looks very funny
17:16:54  <andythenorth> ho
17:16:58  <andythenorth> I should look at that later
17:19:23  <Brot6> ogfx-trains: update from r249 to r251 done -
17:21:17  <Brot6> firs: update from r2476 to r2486 done -
17:22:43  <Brot6> heqs: update from r638 to r639 done -
17:23:28  <Brot6> water-features: update from  to r51 done -
17:25:24  <Brot6> airportsplus: update from r107 to r112 done (2 warnings) -
17:25:25  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: narvs (ERROR r38), bros (r52), ogfx-industries (r122), opengfx (r727), ailib-tile (r16), foobarstramtracks (r23), transrapidtrackset (r28), 2cctrainset (r750), cets (r126), ailib-list (r32), opensfx (r97), ttdviewer (r34), worldairlinersset (r672), openmsx (r97), basecosts (r25), nutracks (r208), nml (r1625), 32bpp-extra (r40), manindu (r7), newgrf_makefile (r305), ailib-direction (r17),
17:25:25  <Brot6> ailib-common (r21), snowlinemod (r49), dutchtramset (r87), ai-admiralai (r75), swisstowns (r22), metrotrackset (r56), dutchroadfurniture (r12), spanishtowns (r10), frenchtowns (r6), grfpack (r279), ogfx-rv (r109), fish (r684), ogfx-landscape (r78), ttrs (r36), ogfx-trees (r51), swedishrails (r205), grfcodec (r833), ai-aroai (r39), german-townnames (r34), smts (r19), chips (r143), belarusiantowns (r8), indonesiantowns (r41), ailib-string
17:25:29  <Brot6> (r29), comic-houses (r71)
17:26:07  <Brot6> narvs: compile of r38 still failed (#2983) -
17:35:31  <planetmaker> hm, is there a property I miss which enforces and industry to be built on all the same level?
17:35:40  <planetmaker> there must be...
17:39:06  <Hirundo> land shape flags property / slope check CB
17:39:24  <planetmaker> for the industry as a whole?
17:39:54  <planetmaker> I'm faced with the problem that the tiles themselves are flat - due to foundations. But... they must not be with height offset
17:40:07  <Hirundo> I don't think there is such a property
17:40:20  <andythenorth> just don't allow any corners to be higher than others
17:40:22  <andythenorth> for every tile
17:40:29  <andythenorth> there was a template for that in nfo
17:40:33  <andythenorth> somewhere...
17:40:41  <andythenorth> in the *many* cb2f templates
17:40:45  <Hirundo> " don't allow any corners to be higher than others" <- that is completely flat land
17:41:21  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you have some garbled industry due to height offsets?
17:41:24  <planetmaker> I don't mind if if they use foundations as long as the result is one hight level
17:41:28  * andythenorth has been there, done that :P
17:41:29  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes
17:41:38  <andythenorth> it was painful to fix for n industries
17:41:53  <andythenorth> I discovered the issue quite a long way into FIRS development
17:42:20  <planetmaker> meh
17:44:02  <planetmaker>
17:44:03  <Webster> Title: Imagebin - A place to slap up your images. (at
17:44:06  <planetmaker> ^^ not good :S
17:45:39  <andythenorth> heh
17:45:57  <andythenorth> planetmaker: possibly the recycling plant was missing the 'level this industry' code from the nfo version
17:46:05  <andythenorth> as it got removed then re-added after n years
17:46:35  <andythenorth> but the fences look good :)
17:46:38  <planetmaker> I don't remember implementing any 'level this industry code'... nor actually having seen it
17:46:44  <andythenorth> so you can treat yourself to a cookie
17:46:48  <planetmaker> :D
17:46:51  * andythenorth digs in nfo
17:47:03  <planetmaker> don't bother. I believe you
17:47:10  <andythenorth> probably cb2f_no_slopes.pnfo
17:47:37  <andythenorth> I knew you'd get shafted by the cb 2f stuff
17:47:44  <planetmaker> it would need checking those tiles which are part of the industry...
17:47:45  <andythenorth> there are 9 nfo templates for it, plus custom code
17:48:00  <andythenorth> something was bound to be missing / missed
17:48:04  <planetmaker> :-)
17:48:45  <planetmaker> problem will be solved, if we disallow foundations, I guess
17:50:15  <planetmaker> hm... peculiar...
17:50:32  <planetmaker> it has landshape flag "only on flat land" but no autoslope callback...
17:51:41  <planetmaker> so... adding a slope check will do the trick - just as you suggested
17:52:32  <planetmaker> though I like the more complicated version better... which would check for the resulting height to be all the same... but... difficult to template, if at all
17:53:33  <andythenorth> overkill
17:53:59  <andythenorth> although would work
17:54:04  <andythenorth> check neighbouring tiles :P
17:54:38  <planetmaker> hm... good idea. Will do.
17:54:58  <planetmaker> that's easy
18:06:19  <frosch123> planetmaker: speaking of slope restrictions... if you enable callback 2f it will disable ottd to try terraforming flat land for the industry
18:06:39  <frosch123> so, do not activate that cb in a templated fashion unless it is needed :)
18:07:09  <andythenorth> frosch123: that might explain something :P
18:07:22  <andythenorth> and that might be a rock and a hard place scenario :P
18:07:51  <planetmaker> frosch123: each CB is activated specifically. That's not templated
18:08:14  <planetmaker> but... it's probably used in most (all?) industries
18:08:15  <frosch123> no idea, just want to make you aware of it :)
18:09:16  <planetmaker> it's needed to require the minimum industry separation of one tile which andy wants :-)
18:09:17  <andythenorth> that might explain why FIRS has location issues for large flat industries :P
18:09:53  <planetmaker> yup :-)
18:10:54  <planetmaker> hm... can be helped, I guess... more templating :-P
18:12:36  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #476: Windmill variation for Grain Mill (Terkhen) @
18:12:40  <planetmaker> hm... iirc there are a number of industries which only have this distance check, andythenorth
18:12:54  <andythenorth> you mean that's the only use of cb 2f?
18:13:51  <planetmaker> in some cases: yes
18:14:14  <planetmaker> like builder's yard
18:14:26  <planetmaker> or recycling plant ;-)
18:14:30  <planetmaker> those where it failed now
18:14:46  <Terkhen> I messed up with glassworks template? :P
18:14:49  <planetmaker> probably I broke it with the patch to restrict placement near other industries... that's where I added it
18:15:23  <planetmaker> I should have possibly added TILE_DISSALLOW_SLOPE, too
18:15:31  <planetmaker> which the other industries often have
18:15:40  <planetmaker> Now I know why ;-)
18:16:49  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2487:9aaff8a971d4: Change: most of the snow for Aluminiu... (andythenorth) @
18:17:10  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've modified the aluminium plant snow to cut off the bits that should be provided by ground tile
18:17:11  <planetmaker> so, andythenorth: should I require flatness for them? Or not? Or allow building near other industries?
18:17:18  <planetmaker> cool :-)
18:17:20  * planetmaker checks
18:17:34  <andythenorth> build it in game would be fastest way to see
18:17:46  <planetmaker> that's what I'll do :-)
18:18:01  <andythenorth> which industries have the tile flat / gap issues?
18:18:17  <planetmaker> gap?
18:18:24  <planetmaker> you mean height offset?
18:18:34  <planetmaker> builder's yard and recycling plant at least
18:19:52  <andythenorth> builders yard probably needs gap check
18:19:58  <planetmaker> check out the others which I "fixed" in the last commit wrt placement
18:20:08  <andythenorth> there is a case where it can build in the spaces left within some industries
18:20:17  <andythenorth> this looks....wrong :P
18:20:32  <andythenorth> but builders yard *is* allowed to build on slopes, including steep slopes iirc
18:20:51  <andythenorth> (gap = 1 tile distance)
18:21:03  <andythenorth> recycling plant needs gap check + disallow all slopes
18:22:24  <planetmaker> yeah
18:22:46  <planetmaker> hm... aluminum plant shows normal arctic. might need a slight change of which ground sprites are used
18:22:53  <planetmaker> of the two sprite layouts
18:22:53  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1782: Aluminium Plant needs snow graphics (andythenorth) @
18:23:28  <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes, it misses snow ground currently
18:23:31  <andythenorth> I leave that to you?
18:24:00  <planetmaker> ok
18:26:45  * andythenorth ponders what next
18:29:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it seems the snow on the ground is also part of the building.
18:29:06  <planetmaker> IMHO that is wrong
18:29:12  <andythenorth> can be cut
18:29:20  <andythenorth> but it means adding further pngs
18:29:29  <andythenorth> oh maybe not
18:29:29  <planetmaker> it needs a separate sprite. yes
18:29:38  <andythenorth> we can change the schema
18:29:44  <andythenorth> hmm
18:29:50  * andythenorth ponders
18:30:23  <andythenorth> it's important to have very maintainable graphics layouts
18:32:12  <planetmaker> it is.
18:32:32  <andythenorth> you want the snow as an overlay with no building pixels?
18:32:55  <planetmaker> I want a snow-overlay for the ground and one for the building. for each tile preferably
18:33:05  <andythenorth> hmm
18:33:24  <planetmaker> it was easy for the builder's yard as it uses the same snow-overlay for both tiles
18:33:29  <planetmaker> the tracks.
18:33:32  * andythenorth wonders how to do this
18:33:35  <planetmaker> it can be used in many cases
18:33:48  <planetmaker> but not in the case of the aluminum plant's bigbuilding, I think
18:33:57  <planetmaker> could. But would look wrong
18:34:17  <andythenorth> what's the advantage - other than correctness?
18:35:05  <planetmaker> the adv. of using a specific ground sprite over the snow tracks? Yes, it's mostly correctness
18:35:33  <planetmaker> currently the industries look IMHO very bad when transparent.
18:35:37  <planetmaker> Much worse than base sets
18:36:17  <planetmaker> proper ground-overlay sprites, both normal and snow with building imprints would make it look so much nicer :-)
18:36:22  <andythenorth> could be a valid concern
18:36:46  <andythenorth> although many of original industries don't feature snow anyway :P
18:36:49  <planetmaker> TTRS for example is excellent in that category and offers extra info in transparent view
18:37:00  <planetmaker> it's not only snow :-)
18:37:15  <andythenorth> I can't think of a way to do it for the snow overlays that isn't a significant headache
18:37:15  <planetmaker> it's at best a patch of cobble stone, at worst nothing visible at all
18:37:31  <planetmaker> where's the headache from your POV?
18:37:50  <andythenorth> workflow to make pngs
18:38:06  <andythenorth> it's a headache anyway
18:38:16  <andythenorth> this will make it 1.8x worse
18:38:21  <andythenorth> approximately :P
18:38:31  <planetmaker> don't you draw ground on a separate layer?
18:38:40  <andythenorth> yes
18:38:48  <andythenorth> that's one reason why it's a headache
18:38:53  <planetmaker> uhm... ?
18:39:02  <planetmaker> I don't understand then
18:39:12  <andythenorth> it won't be easily explainable by irc
18:39:13  <planetmaker> the ground sprite just needs the ground
18:39:23  <andythenorth> it needs it correctly positioned
18:39:29  <planetmaker> yes?
18:39:44  <andythenorth> that is very hard
18:39:45  <planetmaker> what I do in these cases ususally is actually this:
18:40:08  <planetmaker> I draw the whole thing. ground: one layer. Building another. original ground tile the lowest one
18:40:26  <planetmaker> then I can export the ground layer and the building layer separately into separate files. done
18:40:37  <planetmaker> same thing again with snow cover. Another two layers
18:40:54  <planetmaker> maybe I'm naive, though :-)
18:42:02  <planetmaker> the original ground tile layer is just there so that I have it for reference and only need to draw the difference but see the final result
18:43:10  <andythenorth> hmm
18:43:23  <andythenorth> I have brain fail about that
18:43:28  <andythenorth> where does the slicing come in?
18:43:43  <planetmaker> a big building into different sprites?
18:43:46  <andythenorth> yes
18:44:08  <planetmaker> nowhere, I guess. But the same slicing would apply to all layers, wouldn't it?
18:44:16  <andythenorth> yes
18:44:38  <planetmaker> is that different from what you do now?
18:44:53  <andythenorth> currently what I do is a PITA
18:45:02  <planetmaker> :-)
18:45:10  <andythenorth> basically the workflow sucks
18:45:11  <planetmaker> slicing is a PITA, yes. I do that manually
18:45:28  <andythenorth> we should have just figured out a long time ago how to use crops instead of slicing the graphics
18:45:41  <andythenorth> slicing should be 100% unnecessary for any given building
18:45:50  <andythenorth> but we are where we are
18:45:54  <planetmaker> meaning what?
18:46:27  <planetmaker> In principle you can cut it in 64px width, that's all
18:46:48  <planetmaker> don't worry much about the hidden tiles except for the ground
18:47:16  <planetmaker> where you can probably in photoshop use an action to cut it in the tiles
18:49:09  <andythenorth> this should be resolvable better
18:49:12  <andythenorth> but I suspect it's not
18:49:14  <planetmaker> how do you do the slicing now?
18:49:34  <andythenorth> depends
18:49:47  <andythenorth> typically:
18:50:03  <andythenorth> - merge linked layers to get one composite building sprite
18:50:07  <andythenorth> - copy layer
18:50:30  <andythenorth> - go back 2 steps in history in photoshop to prevent accidentally saving with composited sprite
18:50:33  <andythenorth> - open png
18:50:36  <andythenorth> - convert to rgb
18:50:40  <andythenorth> - paste
18:50:49  <andythenorth> - cut slices with marquee
18:50:55  <andythenorth> - move slices to right place
18:51:03  <andythenorth> - convert to indexed mode
18:51:09  <andythenorth> - save
18:51:12  <andythenorth> - test
18:51:28  <andythenorth> - if converting to indexed mode screwed palette, re-export using save to web
18:51:33  <planetmaker> :-)
18:51:43  <andythenorth> then
18:51:48  <andythenorth> - open snow version of png
18:52:05  <andythenorth> - copy buildings from non-snow version to snow version (to ensure position is 100% identical)
18:52:13  <andythenorth> - go to psd with layers, copy snow layer
18:52:18  <andythenorth> - convert snow version to rgb
18:52:22  <andythenorth> - paste snow
18:52:27  <andythenorth> - slice / arrange
18:52:29  <andythenorth> - index
18:52:30  <andythenorth> - save
18:52:34  <andythenorth> test
18:53:13  <andythenorth> it's very easy to get off-by-few-pixels errors between snow / non snow if not done very rigourously
18:53:44  <andythenorth> ability to parse layered files would ease the pain a little :P
18:54:18  <andythenorth> to try and place the snow without the building as a guide is guaranteed to introduce errors
18:54:29  <andythenorth> and splitting snow to 2 pngs is extra work
18:55:24  <andythenorth> I did ponder an intermediate sliced psd, from which pngs could be exported by turning layers on / off
18:56:43  <planetmaker> hm... that sounds all quite complicated
18:57:24  <planetmaker> tbh, I'd have drawn the snow probably on top of the sliced building. Or I make slicing easy...
18:57:36  <planetmaker> let's give you an example
18:58:05  <planetmaker> (though your stuff is more complicated than the one I did so far, I think. Though re-doing and re-slicing the factory was a PITA; too...
19:01:08  <planetmaker> ah... maybe... Take the factory of OpenGFX indeed
19:02:02  <planetmaker> though I re-arranged the sprites afterwards...
19:02:17  <planetmaker> can you read xcf ?
19:02:37  <andythenorth> not sure
19:02:54  <andythenorth> I can try
19:03:10  <planetmaker>
19:03:34  <Brot6> clientpatches: compile of r22772 still failed (#2964) -
19:03:38  <andythenorth> I can't open xcf :)
19:03:40  <planetmaker> what I did was take the building as a whole. And what one can do for the sake of simplicity, is just take vertical slices
19:06:10  * andythenorth finds an xcf app for the mac
19:07:17  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you have the png showing that?
19:07:26  <planetmaker> <-- something like that could in principle be done
19:07:27  <Webster> Title: Imagebin - A place to slap up your images. (at
19:07:37  <planetmaker> andythenorth: gimp is the xcf app for mac ;-)
19:07:46  <andythenorth> so is something called seashore as well
19:07:51  <andythenorth> I had gimp
19:07:56  <andythenorth> must have lost it when migrating :P
19:08:12  <andythenorth> don't take the advise of a linux user when you have 10 years of mac migration experience to draw on
19:08:14  <planetmaker> the middle slice is 64px for the centre tile.
19:08:24  <andythenorth> planetmaker: that could be done without the 1 px gaps
19:08:37  <andythenorth> the crops in nml/nfo can be completely arbitrary and overlap
19:08:38  <Brot6> openttd-vehiclevars: update from r22759 to r22772 done -
19:08:39  <planetmaker> yes. It's mostly for illustration purposes
19:08:47  <andythenorth> maybe we've been doing it all wrong for years
19:08:50  <planetmaker> though the gap is an alignment sanity check, too
19:09:00  <planetmaker> white pixels ;-)
19:09:09  <andythenorth> probably, because vehicles have 8 sprites, we've applied same thinking to industries
19:09:16  <planetmaker> but what one will have to do is adjust the building on the tile
19:09:27  <andythenorth> but mostly I do anyway
19:09:41  <andythenorth> the positioning wrt blue background is often a guess
19:09:45  <andythenorth> then sort it out in code
19:10:09  <Brot6> serverpatches: compile of r22772 still failed (#2966) -
19:10:44  <planetmaker> yes, that's what I do, too. x-y adjustment is for code
19:10:55  <andythenorth> hmm
19:11:01  <andythenorth> it's too late now to abandon the slices
19:11:08  <andythenorth> or is it?
19:11:08  <planetmaker> except ground tiles, of course
19:11:14  <planetmaker> they're ... more challanging
19:11:42  <planetmaker> I don't have a shortcut for that. Though their size is known and it most likely can be scripted
19:11:54  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of r22772 still failed (#2446) -
19:12:02  <planetmaker> maybe just make them different layers... hm :-)
19:12:06  <planetmaker> that solves it immediately
19:12:18  <planetmaker> each of the 4 ground tiles a separate layer...
19:12:22  <planetmaker> and done
19:12:54  <andythenorth> shame we can't educate the encoders about layers
19:13:00  <andythenorth> e.g. grfcodec
19:13:19  <planetmaker> my makefile can...
19:13:23  <andythenorth> so I recall
19:13:44  <andythenorth> means you have to reference directly a layer in a file?
19:13:48  <planetmaker> though it's not yet quite ripe, I think
19:14:00  <planetmaker> yes, that's what it means. I can export each layer separately
19:14:08  <planetmaker> by name. At least in gimp files
19:14:16  <planetmaker> psd works at least by number, not sure by name
19:15:02  <andythenorth> how did we get into this?
19:15:03  <andythenorth> oh
19:15:06  <andythenorth> aluminium plant
19:15:10  <planetmaker> :-)
19:15:27  <planetmaker> I can give it also a transparent overlay ground tile. no issue either
19:15:49  <planetmaker> but yes, aluminum plant is a good example imho for all this
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19:25:31  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I wouldn't worry too much about the transparent mode effect
19:25:33  <Ammler> planetmaker: imagemagick could do it too, did you check?
19:25:41  <andythenorth> the default game doesn't handle it well in many cases either
19:26:19  <Ammler>
19:26:20  <Webster> Title: Imagemagick photoshop notes (at
19:26:21  <planetmaker> well... I use it a lot. And a bad example is also an example. But not one should follow
19:27:50  <andythenorth> if it shows default terrain sprites (land / snow) it will be harder to see industry locations in transparent mode
19:28:27  * andythenorth ponders the black shapes used by ttd original houses
19:28:30  <planetmaker> not with good overlay sprites
19:28:45  <planetmaker> I'm quite fond of those black shapes
19:29:17  <planetmaker> could alternatively be used to show ground within the factories ;-)
19:29:24  <planetmaker> like a table... or stuff ;-)
19:29:37  <planetmaker> or to advertize. Or to show an industry symbol
19:29:42  <planetmaker> which is great about ECS
19:32:08  <planetmaker> for now, though, a good night everyone... helping a friend move makes probably for a good and sound sleep :-)
19:33:46  <andythenorth> good night
19:39:01  <Terkhen> good night planetmaker
19:48:11  <Terkhen> I know how to do #476, but I have no idea on how to do it nicely :P
19:48:12  <Brot6> Terkhen: #476 is "FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #476: Windmill variation for Grain Mill - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
19:48:23  * Terkhen will do dirty code first and clean up later
19:49:45  <Terkhen> andythenorth: regarding translations, do you think that 0.7.0 is missing any tickets that will create new strings?
20:01:13  <Brot6> Unable to connect to execution expired
20:34:04  <andythenorth> Terkhen: not sure about new strings yet
20:36:04  <Terkhen> ok :)
20:36:42  <Terkhen> I was thinking that we should do stuff requiring new strings first, and later give the translators a promise of not touching stuff until release :P
20:40:50  <andythenorth> I agree
20:45:41  <Terkhen> :)
20:56:22  <Ammler> but you kinda need to release to get translations
20:56:46  <andythenorth> we can point them at the nightly
20:57:15  <andythenorth> ach, let's figure it out when all other 0.7 tickets are closed
20:57:48  <Ammler> or you make real release branches and add only bugfixes and translations to minor version changes
20:57:52  <Terkhen> we can get translations before a release
20:58:03  <Terkhen> as long as we don't change them near release date, we can point them to a nightly, yes
20:59:12  <Ammler> then you should set due date for release :-)
20:59:55  <andythenorth> yeah
20:59:55  <andythenorth> no
20:59:59  <andythenorth> it's done when it's done
21:00:04  <Ammler> but minor releases is easier, imo...
21:00:13  <Rubidium> 06:07:08 09-10-11+12 ?
21:00:26  <andythenorth> could be
21:00:33  <Ammler> well, what will you do, if someone on forum tells, he is going to make translation for X, will you wait?
21:00:35  <andythenorth> there's also a lot of 11s coming up soon
21:00:54  <andythenorth> Ammler: good point actually
21:01:11  <andythenorth> so release would be something like "it's done when it's done + 10 days"
21:01:11  <Ammler> I would not let translators rule your releases
21:01:41  <Ammler> just be flexible with bugfixes+translation releases
21:02:24  <andythenorth> we'll get to 0 tickets outstanding, then say 10 days
21:09:24  <Terkhen> 0 tickets with string changes I'd say
21:09:34  <Terkhen> that way we are not bored and no one gets the temptation to hit the release button :P
21:11:12  <andythenorth> they must not!
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21:11:27  * andythenorth puts a lock on the release button
21:12:08  <andythenorth> we could do an RC or such via forums
21:12:16  <andythenorth> same as for 0.6.5-Beta
21:12:31  <Terkhen> sounds fine to me
21:12:40  <andythenorth> this would get us some bug reports + translations, without the danger of a bananas release
21:12:54  <Terkhen> and we can spend that time with a test game :)
21:13:05  <Terkhen> so we get real bug reports too :P
21:19:47  <andythenorth> good night
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22:03:06  <Brot6> DictatorAI - Revision 152:4ef56c11401a: - minor change (krinn) @
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