Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 15th September 2011:
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03:14:12  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #3045: Wagons - sprites (Elukka) @
07:12:15  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #3045: Wagons - sprites (Elukka) @
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09:35:19  <planetmaker> string parameters behave odd
09:35:25  <planetmaker> and unexpected
09:45:09  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2878: parameters to strings (planetmaker) @
09:51:02  <Hirundo> What part exactly is "unexpected" ?
09:51:43  <planetmaker> Hirundo: that I can't add a numeric parameter as a separate parameter, but that I need to pass it via "| parameter << 16" as part of the string parameter
09:52:12  <planetmaker> I'd expect to be able to use simply STORE_TEMP(param, 261) instead
09:52:32  <Hirundo> {STRING} eats only two bytes, so the next param is split over two registers
09:52:45  <planetmaker> yes, I found that out the hard way
09:53:32  <planetmaker> COMMA is dword... I guess if I use WORD I could add more stuff?
09:53:58  <Hirundo> yes, that'd be [UN]SIGNED_WORD
09:54:15  <planetmaker> hm... :-)
09:54:29  <Hirundo> We could extend all parameters to take 4 bytes quite easily, but it'd limit you to 4 or 6 parameters (depending on location)
09:54:46  <planetmaker> ok, so the parameters are poped byte-wise from the stack while currently they're written ad dword onto it
09:55:01  <planetmaker> s/ad/as/
09:55:09  <Hirundo> yes
09:55:19  <planetmaker> that's a bit opaque :-)
09:55:41  <Hirundo> It is opaque, the "dynamic string parameters" feature is still missing from NML
09:56:03  <Hirundo> It's not any more or less opaque than doing it in NFO, basically
09:56:04  <planetmaker> what do you mean with 'dynamic string parameters'?
09:56:12  <planetmaker> haha :-) Of course not
09:56:28  <planetmaker> But hey, I'm spoilt by NML!
09:56:35  <Hirundo> string(STR_ABC, production_level + 42, LOAD_TEMP(18))
09:57:11  <planetmaker> so... string and its parameters as one 'string' call?
09:58:00  <Hirundo> that'd be nice indeed
10:00:35  <planetmaker> What would help (slightly) against my confusion, if maybe parameters could just be pushed onto a stack. And the correct size is just added to the offset for the next push
10:00:54  <planetmaker> then one only would need to count bytes when writing the string, looking up the byte count of the single parameters
10:01:09  <planetmaker> but maybe that's not either :-) Not sure
10:01:18  <Hirundo> That'd require specifying the string you're gonna write before pushing the parameters
10:01:37  <planetmaker> as it could also have parameters... hm
10:01:53  <Hirundo> If I push 42 on the stack, no one can tell me if it's gonna be a word (e.g. weight) or a dword (e.g. COMMA)
10:02:47  <Hirundo> OpenTTD deals with it by making parameters uint64 which fits anything, but NML/NFO can't afford to waste so many bytes
10:04:27  <planetmaker> :-)
10:05:09  <planetmaker> well, I was until now not realy aware that I could push many more parameters on the stack, if I limited their size
10:05:19  <planetmaker> which is a nice discovery ;-)
10:06:35  <Hirundo> The WORD codes exist only for FIRS, in fact :-)
10:10:01  <planetmaker> :-D
10:10:07  <planetmaker> they're very handy
10:10:43  <planetmaker> one often has (u)int16 numbers somewhere
10:11:02  <planetmaker> especially when dealing with cargo amounts
10:11:28  <planetmaker> or possibly day-of-year or so :-)
10:12:17  <planetmaker> hm, and now I only need 2.5 dwords :-)
10:26:51  <planetmaker> so... now a small exampled added also how to assign the parameters then
10:28:24  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2878: parameters to strings (planetmaker) @
10:34:24  <planetmaker> moving to a wiki really was a good idea :-)
10:35:57  <Terkhen> :)
10:40:16  <planetmaker> Now, with my new knowledge, debug strings can get about 4x longer :-P
10:41:10  <planetmaker> @calc 124/12
10:41:10  <Webster> planetmaker: 10.3333333333
10:41:14  <planetmaker> hm...
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12:23:09  <planetmaker> andythenorth: production of primary industries seems to change sometimes...
12:23:19  <planetmaker> can you shed some light onto that?
12:23:34  <planetmaker> the monthly one
12:23:45  <planetmaker> is that the default behaviour, to produce all 256 ticks something?
12:23:58  <planetmaker> hm... I'd guess
12:24:07  <planetmaker> @calc 90/16
12:24:07  <Webster> planetmaker: 5.625
12:24:16  <planetmaker> @calc 90/16 * 2
12:24:16  <Webster> planetmaker: 11.25
12:24:52  <planetmaker> @calc 10 * 16
12:24:52  <Webster> planetmaker: 160
12:25:03  <andythenorth> planetmaker: they produce 8 or 9 times per month iirc
12:25:13  <andythenorth> maybe 7 or 8
12:25:15  <planetmaker> ok, that's the 256 ticks production thingy
12:25:18  <andythenorth> depends on month length
12:25:40  <planetmaker> and how does the production_multiplier relate to that?
12:26:16  <andythenorth> src will know
12:26:30  <andythenorth> I think it's every 256 ticks it produces 16 * prod_multiplier
12:26:36  <andythenorth> iirc
12:26:58  <planetmaker> hm... that doesn't always match with what is being displayed :-)
12:27:04  <planetmaker> it would be easy, if so :-)
12:27:06  <andythenorth> hmm, I think it's a quite a regular source of bug reports
12:28:42  <planetmaker> ok. I'll further investigate :-)
12:29:20  <planetmaker> <-- my current industry view
12:30:06  <andythenorth> he
12:30:10  <andythenorth> that's fun
12:30:48  <planetmaker> efficiency is just 1..4 randomly per industry and determines how many supplies they want
12:30:56  <planetmaker> for both maintaining as well as growth
12:31:10  <andythenorth> it's gone a bit ECS :D :P
12:31:35  <planetmaker> production level and below may go. I just need it for debugging
12:31:42  <andythenorth> he
12:31:46  <andythenorth> debug text parameter :)
12:31:53  <andythenorth> (later)
12:31:56  <planetmaker> yes
12:32:51  <planetmaker> hm... one could make that nicely conditionally... including an empty debug string or the real one
12:34:21  <planetmaker> but I have to agree... the industry text became closer to what ECS displays
12:36:27  <andythenorth> also the game mechanic is heading that way
12:36:37  <andythenorth> less 'dump supplies, forget about it'
12:36:46  <andythenorth> more 'take care of each industry carefully'
12:36:53  <andythenorth> I don't mind
12:36:58  <andythenorth> testing will show if that's good or not
12:38:38  <planetmaker> nah, this supply mechanic rather makes it easier... it allows to deliver them less frequently
12:38:53  <planetmaker> as such less care actually is needed
12:39:13  <planetmaker> I'm thinking of making the storage a bit higher than 3 months, though. Maybe 6 or 12
12:39:23  <planetmaker> But that's a variable which is easily tuned
12:40:24  <planetmaker> though... hm... with stepping down the production level... it might get more complicated :-)
12:40:31  <planetmaker> might need some thought
12:40:59  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I do wonder if that is a case for a parameter
12:41:12  <planetmaker> the length / size of storage?
12:41:15  <andythenorth> yes
12:41:24  <andythenorth> I dislike parameters in general, but that one doesn't require extra testing for each variation
12:41:25  <planetmaker> I thought about that. I tend to answer 'yes'
12:41:31  <andythenorth> I think so
12:41:38  <andythenorth> particularly for server games I thought
12:41:40  <planetmaker> It needs to be an internal one anyway. So far it's an internal constant, but for economies, definitely
12:41:47  <andythenorth> it's an aspect of difficulty level
12:41:53  <planetmaker> yup
12:41:58  <planetmaker> quite a strong one
12:42:03  <andythenorth> I once planned to group FIRS under difficulty presets
12:42:07  <andythenorth> (parameters)
12:42:11  <andythenorth> but I think that won't work
12:42:52  <planetmaker> nah... I don't like the NewGRF going for different defaults depending on difficulty level
12:43:00  <planetmaker> That's unexpected behaviour
12:43:18  <planetmaker> having a parameter for that - that's an entirely different story
12:43:28  <andythenorth> I was thinking of a difficulty parameter
12:43:30  <andythenorth> but it's bad
12:43:56  <planetmaker> ah, just one parameter like 'hard', 'easy' and 'toddler' and 'sandbox'?
12:44:01  <planetmaker> yeah...
12:44:05  <planetmaker> no point really
13:17:52  <planetmaker> thanks also for the string examples you produced last night, Yexo :-)
13:18:16  <Yexo> you're welcome :)
13:18:41  <Yexo> I'm thinking more and more that even pushing the string code on the stack should work and openttd should be fixed
13:18:51  <Yexo> *plural codes in substrings pushed on the stack
13:20:12  <planetmaker> <-- like that, you mean?
13:20:40  <planetmaker> which is a compelling syntax :-)
13:20:41  <Yexo> no, more like your original code
13:21:05  <Yexo> return string(STR_EXTRA_PRIMARY, string(STR_CARGO_UNIT_ENGINEERING_SUPPLIES), string(STR_CARGO_UNIT_ENGINEERING_SUPPLIES)); <- this includes those two substrings in STR_EXTRA_PRIMAY at compile time
13:21:20  <Yexo> so if you do that a few times with different substrings it'll use multiple string IDs in nfo
13:21:46  <planetmaker> it does or it should?
13:21:52  <Yexo> it does
13:29:02  <Yexo> loading firs trunk in stable openttd gives this warning: "Fatal: firs/firs.grf requires OpenTTD version E00: FIRS requires OpenTTD 1.2.0 / trunk r22780 or higher. Consult FIRS ReadMe: ..."
13:29:20  <planetmaker> that's right
13:29:22  <Yexo> it shouldn't use the default string for "requires OpenTTD version" if it provides that part too
13:29:28  <planetmaker> oh
13:29:33  <Yexo> "requires OpenTTD version E00: FIRS requires OpenTTD" <- that's not right
13:29:43  <planetmaker> yes
13:32:16  <planetmaker> Hm... how does firs actually manage to not just get disabled?
13:32:36  <planetmaker> due to illegal action2? Hm...
13:33:57  <Yexo> parsing of action2's is done later than disabling by action B
13:35:03  <planetmaker> I'm unsuccessful with that with ogfx+landscape... or I'd have to if A LOT
13:35:39  <Yexo> huh? just have one if (openttd-version < some_version) { fatal error; } at the top?
13:35:44  <Yexo> that should just work
13:36:04  * planetmaker checks again. But that's what IIRC I have
13:36:33  <Yexo> looks like it, yes
13:37:35  <Yexo> ah :)
13:38:02  <Yexo> oh, that was not it :(
13:38:11  <planetmaker> A solution how... ?
13:38:58  <planetmaker> I started with if (...) around many things. But that degraded code quality (readibility) a lot, thus I skipped that
13:39:49  <planetmaker> hm... 1.1.2 is not 1.2.0...
13:40:20  <Yexo> there's the problem then :)
13:40:28  <planetmaker> yeah :S
13:40:42  <planetmaker> I don't even want to remember how much time I seem to have wasted on that
13:40:49  * planetmaker tests
13:45:20  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Landscape - Revision 89:e5b2fab4215c: Fix: OpenTTD 1.1.2 is not 1.2.0 (planetmaker) @
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13:52:40  <planetmaker> that's worth a new release ;-)
13:53:01  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Landscape - Revision 90:759f2a6e851f: Doc: Update changelog for 0.2.3 (planetmaker) @
13:53:01  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Landscape - Revision 91:62988a8ce33a: Added tag 0.2.3 for changeset 759f2a6e851f (planetmaker) @
13:57:25  <Brot6> ogfx-landscape: update from 0.2.2 to 0.2.3 done (1 warnings) -
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14:20:46  <Brot6> Dutch Road Furniture - Feature #3068: end piece for hard shoulders and third lanes (oberhuemer) @
14:26:20  <Brot6> Dutch Road Furniture - Feature Request #3079 (New): Medians with no central tile (oberhuemer) @
14:27:07  <Brot6> Dutch Road Furniture - Feature #3068: end piece for hard shoulders and third lanes (foobar) @
14:41:55  <Brot6> Dutch Road Furniture - Bug #3080 (New): 1 tile shoulder direction bends (foobar) @
14:48:28  <Brot6> Dutch Road Furniture - Feature Request #3079 (Feedback): Medians with no central tile (oberhuemer) @
14:48:28  <Brot6> Dutch Road Furniture - Feature Request #3079 (Feedback): Medians with no central tile (foobar) @
15:19:42  <Brot6> Dutch Road Furniture - Feature #3068: end piece for hard shoulders and third lanes (oberhuemer) @
15:25:20  <Brot6> Dutch Road Furniture - Feature Request #3079: Medians with no central tile (oberhuemer) @
15:38:13  <planetmaker> andythenorth: <-- useful?
15:38:55  <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes
15:39:07  <andythenorth> you're planning to make a guide?  Or I should copy them to the FIRS site?
15:39:12  <planetmaker> the 'official' FIRS wiki... on the openttd wiki?
15:39:21  <andythenorth> k
15:39:35  <planetmaker> I don't plan to do a full guide... But some info on cargo interaction might be nice
15:40:05  <planetmaker> I'd actually suggest to move the 'official' site to something also others could edit - unlike tt-forge
15:40:15  <andythenorth> maybe
15:40:24  <planetmaker> sometimes people get excited
15:40:58  <planetmaker>
15:41:51  <andythenorth> I should rewrite that page :(
15:41:51  <andythenorth> i
15:42:00  <planetmaker> should it?
15:42:05  <andythenorth> it sets out on the wrong premise
15:42:24  <planetmaker> which?
15:46:02  <andythenorth> " If you ignore these changes, you are at a significant disadvantage compared to how you would perform in the standard game"
15:46:22  <andythenorth> at least once economies are done, that shouldn't be true
15:46:43  <andythenorth> you should be able to play FIRS Basic like it's normal TTD, but with some more industries
15:47:21  <planetmaker> economies are not done. And that sentence as it stands is quite correct
15:47:59  <planetmaker> "future FIRS" should not be the first what people read when they want info about FIRS
15:48:05  <planetmaker> Neither on the intentions
15:48:22  <planetmaker> But rather on what they can do and do have with what they got from online content
15:48:37  <andythenorth> true
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16:52:17  <planetmaker> @calc 864/128
16:52:18  <Webster> planetmaker: 6.75
16:54:32  <planetmaker> @calc 392/98
16:54:32  <Webster> planetmaker: 4
16:56:53  <planetmaker> @calc 108/16
16:56:53  <Webster> planetmaker: 6.75
16:57:06  <planetmaker> @calc 108/12
16:57:06  <Webster> planetmaker: 9
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18:25:46  <frosch123> who wants to flame mb about using both firs and ecs in a game? :p
18:25:58  <andythenorth> why not you?
18:26:02  <andythenorth> he's trying?
18:26:35  <frosch123> <- see bottom
18:28:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: in that case FIRS should have disabled itself
18:28:24  <andythenorth> if it hasn't, it's a valid bug against FIRS
18:28:45  <frosch123> well, it was a testgame anyway
18:29:32  <Hirundo> FWIW: Google Chrome claims that is not, in fact, secure
18:30:32  <frosch123> Hirundo: we did not purchase an expensive certificate which is known by the browsers
18:30:39  <frosch123> you have to download it yourself
18:31:52  <planetmaker> not yet at least :-P
18:32:19  <planetmaker> hm... does FIRS indeed allow to configure both separately, production increase and decrease for primaries?
18:32:48  <planetmaker> hm, actually no parameter which disallows increasing production
18:33:12  <andythenorth> should there be?  For some kind of sandboxed competition mode or such?
18:34:05  <planetmaker> I just wonder whether not a parameter like "don't change production" is better than only "never decrease (but allow skyrocketing)"
18:34:31  <andythenorth> well I always play with 'never decrease'
18:34:37  <andythenorth> but I wouldn't want 'never increase'
18:34:48  <andythenorth> it won't increase unless you deliver supplies :P
18:35:02  <andythenorth> is it counter-intuitive to deliver supplies, but not want an increase?
18:35:45  <planetmaker> well... with the new supplying mechanism... you want to keep some level of supplies to not have it decrease
18:36:22  <planetmaker> 					( production_level / 16 * (production_level + 128) / 32 - (4 - LOAD_PERM(var_supply_efficiency_factor)))
18:36:30  <planetmaker> sounds complicated enough? ;-)
18:36:43  <planetmaker> hm... a ( is missing
18:37:36  <planetmaker> 					( production_level / 16 * ((production_level + 128) / 32 - (4 - LOAD_PERM(var_supply_efficiency_factor))))
18:37:40  <planetmaker> is what I want to test
18:38:46  <andythenorth> he
18:39:04  <andythenorth> I can barely parse that
18:40:36  <andythenorth> planetmaker: how does that relate to prod. change probability?
18:42:57  <planetmaker> it relates not to the probability directly. It defines the amount of supplies required to maintain production level (and as small multiple of that) to gain an increase chance
18:43:16  <planetmaker> the increase chance is planned to be related to the ratio of supplies present and a number derived from that
18:44:41  <andythenorth> which sounds good
18:45:16  <andythenorth> we'll need to maintain the 'no decrease' parameter, but that should be easy
18:45:38  <planetmaker> that's no issue at all
18:45:42  <planetmaker> that's not touched
18:46:04  <andythenorth> completely separate action 2 iirc
18:50:03  <andythenorth> planetmaker: LOAD_PERM is...?
18:56:24  <planetmaker> read permanent storage
18:56:51  <andythenorth> ah hah
18:56:58  <andythenorth> so it makes sense now :)
19:04:26  <Brot6> clientpatches: compile of r22934 still failed (#2964) -
19:11:40  <Brot6> openttd-vehiclevars: update from r22931 to r22934 done -
19:12:58  * andythenorth has an invalid token :(
19:12:59  <andythenorth> nvm
19:13:00  <andythenorth> biab
19:13:54  <Brot6> serverpatches: compile of r22934 still failed (#2966) -
19:15:59  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of r22934 still failed (#2446) -
19:16:46  <V453000> does this look ~acceptable?
19:17:02  * frosch123 start kmag
19:17:32  <frosch123> is it a wagon?
19:17:42  <frosch123> or a engine with fuel?
19:18:16  <V453000> wagon
19:18:31  <frosch123> it could be an aircraft or helicopter as well
19:18:38  <V453000> :DDD
19:18:42  <V453000> or ship? :p
19:18:45  <frosch123> a bubble of the bubble generator
19:18:53  <frosch123> for transportation
19:20:34  <V453000> I was rather asking about the graphical part :P
19:21:08  <frosch123> i assume it uses the fizzy drink colour cycle
19:21:27  <V453000> yes
19:21:28  <V453000> cola
19:22:01  <frosch123> i think it looks fine
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19:51:19  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2600:f418dd0ae3bc: Fix: typo in macro name (andythenorth) @
19:54:54  <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you feel like helping me debug the grain mill snow sprites?
19:56:23  <planetmaker> hm, ok. Production change doesn't work anyway :-P
19:56:34  <planetmaker> and it needs a new day and look
19:58:15  <andythenorth> the grain mill doesn't show the correct ground overlay above snowline :)
20:00:43  <planetmaker> it doesn't?
20:00:46  <planetmaker> does for me
20:01:03  <andythenorth> under the building
20:01:08  <andythenorth> should have black shapes
20:01:14  <andythenorth> can't figure out why :(
20:01:23  <planetmaker> ah
20:01:46  <planetmaker> now I know what to look for ;-)
20:03:33  <planetmaker> which sprite is it?
20:04:33  <andythenorth> sprite number?  spriteset id?
20:04:47  <planetmaker> spriteset
20:05:13  <andythenorth> spriteset_snow_3 & spriteset_snow_4
20:05:21  <andythenorth> no
20:05:23  <andythenorth> sorry
20:05:26  <planetmaker> :-)
20:05:33  <planetmaker> good naming would help :-P
20:05:39  <andythenorth> spriteset_ground_overlay_snow_3 & spriteset_ground_overlay_snow_4
20:06:53  <planetmaker> you show that same spriteset once with the condition snow. And then with the condition no-snow
20:06:58  <planetmaker> as such it's always shown
20:07:10  <planetmaker> hm... no building spriteset_x
20:08:13  <planetmaker> ah, yes
20:08:19  <planetmaker> they come after a building sprite
20:08:32  <planetmaker> thus they're considered a building and not shown in transparency
20:08:52  <planetmaker> all ground must come first
20:09:24  <andythenorth> ok
20:09:34  * planetmaker tests and hopes to have talked rubish
20:10:39  <andythenorth> you were right
20:10:44  <planetmaker> yes works
20:10:56  <andythenorth> I'll commit
20:11:00  <planetmaker> :-)
20:11:14  <planetmaker> sweet
20:11:22  <planetmaker> immediately looks better then :-)
20:11:51  <andythenorth> there is some work to it, but it's worth it
20:11:59  <planetmaker> :-)
20:12:11  <planetmaker> yeah
20:12:29  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 2601:46e1d16d8ed8: Fix: Grain Mill now shows correct gro... (andythenorth) @
20:13:32  <planetmaker> andythenorth: to get slope-aware meadows and alike I'll have to introduce probably a new tiletype for them. I guess that's ok
20:13:52  <planetmaker> reasoning is that meadows don't want foundations, but houses for the farms want them
20:13:52  <andythenorth> I guess
20:14:01  <andythenorth> oh that makes complete sense
20:14:02  <planetmaker> which is a PITA if on one tile
20:14:04  <andythenorth> forest is same
20:14:07  <planetmaker> yup
20:14:30  <planetmaker> can you provide at some time sloped fences?
20:14:39  <planetmaker> like all 8 sprites?
20:14:54  <andythenorth> at some time yes
20:14:57  <planetmaker> :-D
20:15:26  <planetmaker> would be nice... not too distant :-)
20:15:40  <planetmaker> without those sprites it's not motivating to start ;-)
20:15:49  <planetmaker> and CC fences just don't do it
20:15:57  <planetmaker> the default ones I mean
20:16:04  <planetmaker> hm... maybe hedges...
20:17:45  <andythenorth> we're not short of things to do:
20:17:47  <andythenorth> ;)
20:18:13  <andythenorth> I mostly pulled in graphics tickets, I don't know who has time to code atm
20:19:08  <planetmaker> I'm still not sure when I can initialize permanent storage upon industry construction
20:19:50  <planetmaker> currently I do that in the monthly prod. change callback
20:20:09  <planetmaker> <-- if you feel like
20:20:24  <planetmaker> I had the feeling production doesn't change. But not thoroughly tested yet
20:20:49  <planetmaker> hm... 020 has to go
20:21:12  <planetmaker> gone :-P
20:21:16  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the only way initialize permanent storage is with the cbs to set cargos
20:21:21  <andythenorth> but that's a bad idea
20:21:33  <planetmaker> why?
20:22:17  <planetmaker> except that it's introducing a CB which is not needed in 95% of the cases
20:23:35  <andythenorth> you'd have to know which cargoes to set
20:23:39  <andythenorth> it would over-ride the action 0
20:23:42  <andythenorth> work :P
20:27:22  <planetmaker> he, yeah
20:27:36  <planetmaker> well, initialization on the next 1st of month is ok, I guess
20:29:18  <andythenorth> it's not the first time I've thought that there should be an 'on construction' general cb
20:29:41  <planetmaker> :-)
20:30:06  <planetmaker> yeah, I had that idea, too
20:30:36  <andythenorth> you can run a (otherwise pointless) 256 tick production cb, and initialise on that
20:30:48  <andythenorth> there might be a tile animation cb that can set related vars in the industry
20:30:57  <andythenorth> which would run as soon as created
20:31:14  <andythenorth> but then you'd need to set another bit of storage as a 'run once and once only flag'
20:31:37  <planetmaker> yeah... welll
20:31:43  <andythenorth> hmm
20:32:03  <andythenorth> if we want to randomise initial production this might be an issue there too
20:33:17  <planetmaker> yeah
20:33:34  <planetmaker> I wonder how ECS does it...
20:43:29  <planetmaker> bed time now. Good night
20:45:01  <andythenorth> good night
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