Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 6th October 2011:
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01:48:39  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 201:11ef3c8d8d2e: brightened red on ET 85 (oberhuemer) @
01:48:39  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 202:b5cd76982995: fudge some apparently nonexistent power v... (oberhuemer) @
02:36:39  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 203:09df9c638050: added V 140 and D 311 (oberhuemer) @
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10:25:58  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 204:ee13dd1dfc3d: don't use IDs <128 unless it's an articul... (Eddi) @
10:57:02  <Yexo> Terkhen / planetmaker: What do you think about porting those 32bpp sprites that are available for vehicles under gpl to ogfx-rv / ogfx-trains?
10:57:36  <planetmaker> nice idea actually
10:57:42  <Terkhen> yes
10:57:49  <Terkhen> I would be missing cargo sprites again :P
10:57:53  <planetmaker> yes
10:57:56  <Terkhen> but that would be nice :)
10:58:11  <Yexo> ok, nml is currently broken wrt 32bpp sprites
10:58:20  <Yexo> I'll try to fix that and make some examples
10:58:20  <Terkhen> as long as those sprites are using a compatible license
10:58:30  <planetmaker> I'm confident that it's not a perpetual state of "will stay broken" ;-)
10:58:39  <Terkhen> if someone is interested he will provide better sprites :P
10:58:51  <Ammler> planetmaker: also if you want to make a 32bpp baseset, I would base it on 32bpp-extra than on opengfx32bpp
10:59:05  <planetmaker> yes
10:59:09  <Yexo> compatible license might be a problem, but if ogfx+ projects actually start to use the sprites that might be a good incentive for other people to create the missing sprites with a gpl license
10:59:15  <planetmaker> opengfx32bpp has no repo anyway
10:59:19  <Terkhen> Yexo: yes :)
10:59:29  <planetmaker> quite agreed, Yexo
10:59:57  <Terkhen> let's see if I can find their license
11:00:02  <Ammler> so basically branch opengfx for nml conversin
11:00:15  <Ammler> than branch that fro 32bpp, right?
11:00:37  <Yexo> you wouldn't actually need to branch for the nml conversion, as long as you do it part by part
11:00:51  <planetmaker> it would be easier, though, Yexo
11:01:04  <Ammler> and currently the nmlpart of opengfx does not work
11:01:11  <Ammler> at least I wasn't able to get it working
11:01:36  <planetmaker> it's somewhat more difficult to have a grf depend on either nml or nfo files
11:02:15  <planetmaker> and it might be less work to convert all pnfo to pnml in one go than spending much time on the nml2nfo part
11:02:19  <Terkhen> <-- those trucks use gpl v2, the rest are "unlicensed"
11:02:28  <Terkhen> which will be a PITA
11:02:28  <planetmaker> of the makefile(s)
11:02:55  <Ammler> hmm, I thought, jupix forced people to use a license
11:03:03  <Yexo> unfortunately not :(
11:03:14  <planetmaker> he produces all kinds of packs, with and without license requirements
11:03:20  <planetmaker> which undermines the whole effort somewhat
11:03:41  <Terkhen> <--- besides the trucks I mentioned, I could only find this... and it is unlicensed and "xtra zoom"
11:03:49  <Yexo> Terkhen:  there seem to be a lot more gpl v2 tars
11:04:09  <Terkhen> yes, but they seem to be contained in the first one I linked
11:04:25  <Yexo> ah, possible
11:04:36  <Terkhen> I have to go now, bbl
11:05:05  <planetmaker> enjoy, Terkhen
11:05:08  <Ammler> the 32bpp-ez sprites can be used for normal 32bpp too, afaik
11:06:03  <planetmaker> nah, there's actually more trucks
11:08:09  <Ammler> maybe prepar makefile to create 3 different tars, 1) 8bpp only, 2) 32bpp without and 3) with ez
11:08:17  <planetmaker> Ammler: yes and no. The exact same sprites hardly. But usually they have normal zoom sprites, too
11:08:47  <planetmaker> I'm currently not overly interested in also supporting ez
11:09:08  <Ammler> well, other might not be interested in supporting non-ez 32bpp
11:09:16  <Ammler> so why not support both in one run?
11:09:25  <Ammler> so you get help of thnose ez people
11:09:54  <planetmaker> yes, maybe...
11:11:43  <Ammler> another issue is the lack of support from bananas
11:12:03  <Ammler> which is imo worst
11:13:18  <Yexo> if we have a working newgrf we might find a way around that
11:13:22  <Yexo> one step at a time
11:15:27  <planetmaker> Ammler: I think though, that the opengfx-32bpp project could be used as basis to kinda start anew
11:15:47  <planetmaker> to collect all the 32bpp sprites which are gpl2 and which are part of the 5 original grfs
11:16:19  <planetmaker> I'd not yet add 32bpp to OpenGFX itself, the NML conversion though can be done within the OpenGFX main repo IMHO
11:16:30  <planetmaker> in a separate branch probably still is easiest
11:16:42  <planetmaker> we still can merge things accross branches
11:18:09  <planetmaker> hm... or maybe I have to find a nice way to use nml2nfo
11:19:17  <Ammler> well, if bananas would support 32bpp, it would automatically get more attention, now it is a big pain to use it
11:19:21  <Yexo> currently nml doesn't support the baseset grfs (except for the extra grf)
11:19:56  <Ammler> so making those huge 32bpp packs makes sense
11:20:13  <Ammler> like the coop pack on time without bananas
11:20:59  <Ammler> how the hell could 32bpp be completely forgotten from Truebrain as he was one of the main dev of 32bpp? :-)
11:21:32  <planetmaker> Hm... yes, I mis-remembered. --start-sprite only acts on nfo output
11:22:20  <Yexo> planetmaker:  it only makes sense for nfo output. Grf output has no notion of "sprite number"
11:23:10  <Yexo> the problem for the basesets is that they're just a bunch of sprites. There is no way to code that in nml. You always need some sort of action sprite before them
11:23:14  <planetmaker> yes, just noticed.
11:23:47  <Ammler> Yexo: couldn't you abuse ActionA?
11:25:00  <Yexo> Ammler:  sure, but actionA is also an action. And the original grfs cannot contain an actionA
11:25:35  <Ammler> yes, I meant abuse it on nml level so it does create grf without action :-)
11:25:39  <Yexo> basically you could wrap the complete contents of one baseset grf in a single actionA block and strip the actionA later
11:25:43  <Ammler> basically Action without start
11:25:57  <Ammler> exactly
11:26:30  <Yexo> sure it can, it's just not done yet
11:27:07  <planetmaker> maybe just a command line parameter like --base instead of --grf
11:27:33  <Ammler> planetmaker: but why not simply do the 32bpp with real ActionA
11:27:36  <Ammler> in the extra grf
11:28:11  <planetmaker> hm. it would mean to write actionA also for all normal sprites
11:28:18  <planetmaker> but it is feasible
11:28:27  <Ammler> normal sprites?
11:28:34  <planetmaker> yes
11:28:40  <planetmaker> 8bpp
11:28:44  <Yexo> <Ammler> planetmaker: but why not simply do the 32bpp with real ActionA <_ because that would duplicate all the normal baseset grfs in the extra grf
11:28:45  <planetmaker> iirc
11:28:47  <Yexo> which is ugly
11:29:04  <planetmaker> yes
11:29:47  <Ammler> yes, but doable and it shouldn't be that hard to convert it later, when nml supports basegrf
11:30:40  <Yexo> converting that is probably more work than adding basegrf support to nml
11:30:49  <Yexo> it's not like we have to wait for some 3rd party for that
11:31:37  <Ammler> well, whatever starting with converting the extra grf can be done now, and then branch to have the extra32bpp
11:32:03  <Ammler> does nml support the whole Action5 now?
11:32:19  <planetmaker> yes?
11:32:25  <Yexo> it always did?
11:32:34  <Ammler> ok :-)
11:34:35  <Ammler> in any case, is there something needed from CF build script?
11:34:58  <Ammler> (I don't think so)
11:35:32  <planetmaker> not sure now
11:35:40  <Ammler> I would change the Makefile framework to tar always
11:35:49  <Ammler> also if it has 8bpp only
11:36:02  <Ammler> and then change the bananas to use tar instead grf
11:36:05  <planetmaker> doesn't it do that?
11:36:55  <Ammler> I think, change grf to tar could be done by bananas easy, without rewrite I mean :-)
11:37:21  <Ammler> and then you shoudl be able to upload 32bpp to bananas
11:37:46  <planetmaker> I think I don't quite understand what you mean
11:38:00  <planetmaker> we all know that bananas yet doesn't accept 32bpp. Yes, that can be changed
11:38:12  <planetmaker> but the makefile builds a tar always. Except when you build a zip
11:38:20  <planetmaker> which could be changed very easily
11:38:58  <Ammler> planetmaker: I guess, you changed that once, did you revert that again?
11:39:11  <planetmaker> no...?
11:39:14  <Ammler> now the zip has a grf and the docs
11:39:19  <Ammler> not a tar and the docs
11:39:30  <planetmaker> we always build a tar. the zip, as said, is the only bundle which does NOT have the tar
11:39:37  <planetmaker> yes, I changed that once
11:39:37  <Ammler> I don't hink, bananas would accept that
11:39:42  <planetmaker> I think it would
11:39:48  <planetmaker> or it would accept the tar directly
11:39:55  <planetmaker> s/would/does/
11:40:19  <Ammler> bananas needs a grf, afaik
11:40:37  <Ammler> it does scan it for the ID, doesn't?
11:41:12  <planetmaker> yes. but it can read tar. it can read zip
11:41:46  <Ammler> well, you know what I mean
11:42:02  <planetmaker> no :-)
11:42:18  <planetmaker> or you mean to *only* upload the 32bpp sprites?
11:42:19  <Ammler> you just need a way to have 32bpp support without rewriting bananas
11:42:34  <planetmaker> My idea is to provide the grf and its 32bpp sprites
11:42:41  <Ammler> planetmaker: to upload a tar with the grf and 32bpp sprites
11:42:48  <planetmaker> yes
11:42:56  <planetmaker> it's all fine w/o 32bpp
11:42:57  <Ammler> that is not possible right now
11:43:08  <planetmaker> with 32bp... should be feasible to change
11:43:27  <Ammler> easiest is to also tar grfs without 32bpp
11:43:44  <Ammler> so you don't have to handle it differentiallly
11:43:53  <planetmaker> Ammler: bananas accepts many formats
11:43:58  <planetmaker> why remove some now forcefully?
11:43:59  <Ammler> nah
11:44:11  <planetmaker> tar *is* accepted
11:44:18  <Ammler> no
11:44:22  <planetmaker> ...
11:44:23  <Ammler> not as grf
11:44:34  <Ammler> you can use tar as package for grf
11:44:40  <Ammler> but not tar in a package for grf
11:44:58  <Yexo> why would you ever wnat that?
11:45:17  <planetmaker> I guess I still don't get it :-)
11:45:24  <Ammler> wouldn't that be easiest to make 32bpp support on bananas?
11:45:29  <Yexo> tar instead of zip is perfectly fine
11:45:38  <Ammler> tar instead grf
11:45:38  <Yexo> just also include the 32bpp sprites in the tar
11:45:47  <Yexo> Ammler:  "tar instead of grf" makes absolutely no sense
11:45:48  <Ammler> Yexo: that works?
11:46:06  <Yexo> we _always_ need the grf, hence no "xyz instead of grf"
11:46:15  <Ammler> I thought, bananas just accepts some limited files inside the zip
11:46:30  <Yexo> yes, dependend on the type you upload
11:46:32  <planetmaker> yes
11:46:33  <Ammler> Yexo: the tar has the grf inside
11:46:40  <Yexo> currently that doesn't include png, it'll have to be changed to support png
11:46:59  <Yexo> there is no way you can work around that without changing bananas
11:47:21  <Yexo> Ammler: I see what you're trying to do, but that'll never work
11:47:34  <planetmaker> Ammler: you can happily upload a tar which contains grf, docs/readme docs/license docs/changelog
11:47:42  <Ammler> changing grf to tar might be easiest as making bannas accepting unlimited files
11:47:49  <Ammler> easiesr*
11:47:57  <Yexo> but we don't want that
11:47:59  <planetmaker> adding it such that it also allows pngs/blub.png would be the change required
11:48:15  <Yexo> as bananas would suddenly start accepting _all_ files, while it's explicitely designed to only accept some extensions
11:48:18  <planetmaker> what do you mean with "changing grf to tar"?
11:48:34  <Yexo> if you want that you might as well change bananas to accept all extensions directly
11:48:44  <Ammler> Yexo: so you fear people would use it to share videos?
11:48:47  <Yexo> planetmaker: "put grf in tar, put tar in zip, upload zip"
11:49:04  <Yexo> Ammler: no, I'm just saying you're creating a workaround for a problem that doesn't exist
11:49:10  <Yexo> bananas has te be changed anyway
11:49:15  <planetmaker> Yexo: but I can do that already. Maybe not the double packaging
11:49:19  <Yexo> if we change it we might as well fix it properly
11:49:24  <Yexo> it's not more work either way
11:49:25  <Ammler> Yexo: but nobody right now does change it
11:49:26  <planetmaker> but just uploading tarfilename.tar/mygrf.grf works
11:49:35  <Ammler> and bananas needs to support 32bpp yesterday
11:49:37  <Yexo> planetmaker:  yes, but double packaging doesn't
11:49:58  <planetmaker> might be, yes
11:50:02  <Yexo> Ammler: but double packaging as you say also needs changes to bananas as that's not supported either
11:50:20  <Yexo> so then you're back to "but nobody right now does change it", which means you still haven't solved anything
11:50:20  <Ammler> Yexo: yes, I just think, it _might_ be easier
11:50:25  <Yexo> it's not
11:50:32  <Ammler> it is just a suggestion :-P
11:50:38  <Yexo> ok :)
11:51:16  <Ammler> well, first you need someone with mood to touch it anyway
11:51:56  <Ammler> I would first do that and then start making 32bpp grfs
11:52:33  <planetmaker> would or will? :-)
11:52:40  <Yexo> I'd do it the other way around, since having a grf with 32bpp sprites makes a "need" for bananas support
11:52:45  <planetmaker> only the latter matters
11:52:50  <Ammler> oh well, just tell me what I shall do :-P
11:53:09  <Ammler> Yexo: there a plenty 32bpp tars around
11:53:16  <Yexo> provide a diff to bananas code?
11:53:32  <Yexo> Ammler: tars yes, but not grfs with 32bpp sprites
11:53:38  <planetmaker> hasn't andy a copy of bananas?
11:53:39  <Yexo> all tars so far are for the baseset
11:54:09  <Ammler> planetmaker: some people told him not to touch bananas code instgead rewrite from scratch
11:54:15  <Yexo> it's part of
11:54:16  <Ammler> and so it happens, he did nothing
11:55:00  <planetmaker> hm
11:55:08  <Ammler> it was a lazy excuse from Truebrain, as he fears to much support ;-)
11:55:27  <planetmaker> nah, he's a perfectionist
11:55:37  <planetmaker> and sees the limitations of the current solution
11:55:42  <planetmaker> which he likes to see removed
11:55:48  <Ammler> yes, and he does not like others analyse his chaos :-)
11:56:20  <planetmaker> well, the code is all there where yexo just pointed to
11:56:49  <Yexo> Ammler: that argument only holds for WT3, not for bananas :)
11:57:03  <planetmaker> and if you should feel like, I'm sure we could also get a database copy or so for testing
11:57:04  <Ammler> Yexo: not sure, I think it is quite similar
11:57:52  <planetmaker> well. It needs *someone* do it
11:58:38  <planetmaker> I'm sure we'll find many happy people when you give us an improved bananas :-)
11:58:45  <Ammler> if you rewrite from scratch you should use ruby instead python
11:58:45  <Ammler> I guess that is a python limit
11:58:47  <Ammler> (what Truebrain talked about)
11:59:15  <Ammler> the best dynamic homepages are rails :-)
12:00:19  <Ammler> compare redmine with trac or github with bitbucket :-)
12:01:15  <Ammler> anyway, _I_ would try to modify current banans and not start from scratch
12:01:40  <Ammler> it can't be that bas as Truebrain sais
12:01:46  <Ammler> bad*
12:02:09  <planetmaker> will you try?
12:03:08  <Yexo> Ammler: ever heard truebrain about redmine?
12:03:41  <planetmaker> :-)
12:03:52  <planetmaker> "bloat" was one of the words used
12:04:10  <Yexo> "extreme memory usage" another
12:37:50  <Ammler> Yexo: you see, truebrain likes to overreact sometimes :-)
12:38:18  <Ammler> maybe same as with make bananas from scratch instead fix "my mess"
13:09:11  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 205:2b51a43d9c62: an initial (relatively stupid) parser for... (Eddi) @
15:22:53  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 206:9966a2873b58: "cheat" the length of ICE3 heads so the t... (Eddi) @
15:29:32  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 207:1a97215045c2: added ET 85 middle part graphics (oberhuemer) @
15:58:47  <Terkhen> so... what did you decide regarding ogfx+ and 32bpp? should we start asking for sprites?
15:59:42  <planetmaker> nothing really decided. But I think we agreed all three that it's a good idea. So yes
16:00:58  <Terkhen> I'll ask the guy that did the gpl v2 truck sprites
16:01:21  <planetmaker> ask also for train sprites :-)
16:01:28  <planetmaker> I'm off for today. Bye
16:01:45  <Terkhen> I was thinking on a private message for now
16:01:49  <Terkhen> enjoy, we'll discuss this later :P
16:01:59  <planetmaker> ok :-)
16:02:49  <Yexo> have fun planetmaker
16:03:03  <Ammler> well, supporting for it doesn't hurt, but you still need to update the makefile to make a bananas bundle and a bundle for download
16:03:26  <Ammler> as I don't see bananas support that soon
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16:14:43  <Yexo> Terkhen: ogfx-rv requires gimp to build?
16:17:09  <Terkhen> Yexo: yes
16:22:05  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Patch #3098 (Closed): Enable sprite cropping by nmlc (oberhuemer) @
16:23:52  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Support #2919 (Closed): Livery/color standards (oberhuemer) @
16:35:26  <Yexo> This seems to be the only train that has normal zoom 32bpp graphics
16:35:55  <Yexo> everything by ben robbins in jupix repository only has the z0 zoom level, which 4x the normal zoom
16:39:55  <Yexo> I wasn't able to find a single non-extra zoom sprite for trucks
16:40:31  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 208:b6cd8dc91d8d: improved steam engine wheels on diagonals (oberhuemer) @
16:42:08  <Yexo> Terkhen: is it ok if I make a topic requesting those graphics in the 32-bit graphics forum?
16:51:56  <michi_cc> Make it clear you're asking about 32 bpp, not extra zoom, though.
16:52:49  <Yexo> yes, of course
16:57:27  <michi_cc> Some people seem to... confuse... those. Just read the "Feature request" section in
16:57:28  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - To Do, Roadmap, Feature requests (at
17:01:28  <Yexo> ah yes, that topic ;)
17:01:46  <michi_cc> "These are directly related to the 32bit graphics rendering engine, extra zoom, or indirectly related, caused or made more important by the possible adoption of 32bit-EZ in trunk."
17:02:22  <michi_cc> Can you get any more wrong? :p
17:09:29  <Brot6> grfcodec: update from r835 to r836 done -
17:12:49  <Brot6> nml: update from r1679 to r1680 done -
17:20:21  <Brot6> firs: update from r2622 to r2623 done -
17:22:24  <Brot6> opengfx: update from r744 to r745 done -
17:26:18  <Brot6> cets: update from r200 to r208 done (580 warnings) -
17:33:48  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1681:aa4897b2b0e0: Fix: alternative_sprites was broken (yexo) @
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17:34:37  <Yexo> ^^ one of the disadvantages of python. Type errors are not as easy to catch as with statically typed languages
17:43:48  <Yexo> planetmaker: actually nml does support baseset grfs via the "base_graphics" block
17:43:57  <Yexo> which I had completely forgotten about :)
17:50:23  <Brot6> vactrainset: compile of r1 still failed (#3044) -
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18:10:35  <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: ogfx-trains (Diffsize: 36114), narvs (11 warnings), bros (1 warnings), ogfx-industries (1 warnings) (Diffsize: 129173), foobarstramtracks (Diffsize: 37000), transrapidtrackset, 2cctrainset (6 warnings), worldairlinersset, heqs, basecosts, nutracks, water-features, 32bpp-extra (2 warnings), manindu (Diffsize: 2), newgrf_makefile, rust, snowlinemod,
18:10:35  <Brot6> dutchtramset (Diffsize: 25964), swisstowns, metrotrackset (Diffsize: 1), dutchroadfurniture (Diffsize: 1984), spanishtowns (Diffsize: 2), frenchtowns, ogfx-rv, fish, ogfx-landscape (2 warnings), ttrs (7 warnings) (Diffsize: 1324), ogfx-trees, swedishrails, german-townnames, smts (Diffsize: 8), chips (1 warnings), belarusiantowns (Diffsize: 30), indonesiantowns (1 warnings) (Diffsize: 1), airportsplus (Diffsize: 964), comic-houses (3
18:10:38  <Brot6> warnings) (Diffsize: 22)
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18:44:38  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1682:79f1f97ca031: Add: support for specifying a mask file for 32... (yexo) @
18:44:39  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1683:5425d8945193: Feature: support for mask files for 32bpp sprites (yexo) @
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19:02:08  <Brot6> clientpatches: compile of r23007 still failed (#2964) -
19:02:31  <Yexo> michi_cc: sorry it took so long, but nml now works with 32bpp sprites
19:03:03  <Yexo> This is a small example
19:03:23  <Yexo> same syntax as for other reasl sprites with one additional (optional) parameter for the mask file
19:04:59  <michi_cc> Thanks, but my 32 bpp patch is already commit, so no need anymore :)
19:05:38  <Brot6> openttd-vehiclevars: compile of r23007 still failed (#3114) -
19:07:26  <Brot6> serverpatches: compile of r23007 still failed (#2966) -
19:09:01  <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: compile of r23007 still failed (#2446) -
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21:48:13  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Feature #3105: Länderbahn electric engines and MUs (Eddi) @
22:26:23  <planetmaker> Yexo: the base_graphics block seems not to be documented?
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22:45:04  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 209:5b55042973f6: articulated parts for Velaro D (Eddi) @
22:45:04  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Revision 210:84396d9b3c7c: better graphics parser (but still ignore ... (Eddi) @
22:50:33  <planetmaker> Yexo: I added the description for base_graphics: and linked it also separately in the main menu.
22:55:16  <Yexo> thanks :)
22:58:35  <planetmaker> and now good night :-)
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