Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 20th March 2012:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:02:22  <Brot6> Japanese Buildings - Code Review #3849: Building texts (PaulC) @
00:37:55  *** Zuu has quit IRC
06:39:36  *** JVassie has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
07:08:10  *** JVassie has quit IRC
07:51:16  *** Zuu has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
07:57:44  *** Rubidium has quit IRC
07:59:32  *** Rubidium has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
08:14:04  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/dutchtracks registered in Redmine with url /home/hg/dutchtracks
08:14:04  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/dutchtracks created
08:37:55  *** Zuu has quit IRC
08:52:56  *** th_gergo has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
09:15:00  *** th_gergo has quit IRC
09:21:05  *** th_gergo has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
09:36:18  *** th_gergo has quit IRC
11:51:04  *** th_gergo has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
12:22:37  *** th_gergo has quit IRC
12:31:29  *** Nat_aS has quit IRC
12:31:43  *** Nat_aS has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
12:36:03  *** th_gergo has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
13:00:50  *** KenjiE20 has quit IRC
13:45:52  *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
14:12:04  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2.0 - Support #3801: Sprite templating instructions (Transportman) @
15:13:53  *** th_gergo has quit IRC
15:14:49  *** th_gergo has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
15:21:53  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2.0 - Bug #3851 (New): DE5 Template+Depot (Transportman) @
15:22:52  *** th_gergo has quit IRC
15:53:41  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
16:26:13  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
16:34:46  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
17:17:27  *** frosch123 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
17:22:27  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
17:22:37  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
17:28:28  <Brot6> britrains: update from r26 to r27 done (5 warnings) -
17:29:20  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Support #3791: GPL exception for graphics from 3D models (planetmaker) @
17:31:27  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Support #3791: GPL exception for graphics from 3D models (planetmaker) @
17:32:00  <Brot6> make-nml: compile of r0 still failed (#3730) -
17:35:57  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Support #3791: GPL exception for graphics from 3D models (oberhuemer) @
17:36:31  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Support #3791: GPL exception for graphics from 3D models (oberhuemer) @
17:40:17  *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
17:46:57  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Support #3791: GPL exception for graphics from 3D models (planetmaker) @
17:53:19  <andythenorth> ^ it's a GPL violation, it won't pass
17:53:38  <andythenorth> the resulting pixels exist in the same shared program space as the code
17:53:51  <andythenorth> it has nothing to do with libraries, and the claim for exception is meaningless
17:54:28  <andythenorth> it's a pretty unimaginative GPL avoidance tactic
17:55:15  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Support #3791: GPL exception for graphics from 3D models (Ammler) @
17:55:41  <planetmaker> my point
17:56:19  <andythenorth> if it was valid as oberhuemer wishes to interpret it, it could basically be used to avoid GPL by anyone who wanted
17:56:31  <andythenorth> you'd be able to compile anything you wanted alongside GPL code and avoid GPL
17:56:45  <michi_cc> It's not a license violation in any sense though, if all copyright holders agree. In that case it's imply a dual-licensed piece of code.
17:57:13  <planetmaker> if feels very wrong to me, michi_cc
17:57:19  <michi_cc> It *is* a violation if a copyright holders doesn't agree.
17:58:05  * andythenorth ponders
17:58:11  <andythenorth> it's a violation of GPL in the pathological case that they continue to distribute CETS under GPL
17:58:19  <andythenorth> but +1 to the dual license point ;)
17:58:34  <michi_cc> I wouldn't agree either, but I'm not a copyright holder of that part of CETS. Anyway, morally right or wrong, it would be legal.
17:58:38  <Ammler> planetmaker: I would disagree to host such stuff here
17:59:03  <andythenorth> hmm
17:59:08  <andythenorth> maybe I misunderstand the intent
17:59:24  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Not even then, GPL doesn't (and can't) forbid somebody from offering a piece of work under an additional license.
17:59:24  <planetmaker> well, I don't have a stake in graphics. But CETS has a license as a whole... not sure that can be changed
17:59:55  <Ammler> why not, it needs the permission of the authors
18:00:12  <andythenorth> michi_cc: under additional license, fine.  But it would have to drop GPL at that point.  But I think I misunderstand the intention
18:00:13  <andythenorth> this exception would allow for taking CETS code, and compiling it yourself with graphics derived from 3D models
18:00:19  <planetmaker> It would
18:00:23  <andythenorth> this isn't about taking 3D models and using them for sets
18:00:32  <andythenorth> cets /s
18:00:45  <planetmaker> That's, I think, the whole point
18:01:01  <michi_cc> No, this is about a second license for the python code of CETS that is not GPL. Completely legal, but not something I would support.
18:01:13  <Ammler> andythenorth: and without the exception, you wouldn't be allowed to build? :-o
18:01:25  <andythenorth> Ammler: you would be allowed to build of course
18:01:27  <andythenorth> but not distribute
18:01:38  <andythenorth> this permits distribution too
18:01:45  <andythenorth> it's probably fine actually
18:02:01  <Ammler> hmm
18:02:05  <Ammler> I don't get it
18:02:19  <andythenorth>
18:02:20  <Webster> Title: GPL linking exception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at
18:02:25  <andythenorth> it's just a linking exception
18:02:33  <andythenorth> it declares CETS python code to be a reusable library
18:02:43  <andythenorth> it's quite correct application
18:03:04  <planetmaker> remove my makefile parts from that ;-)
18:03:20  <Ammler> means, you could use cets code on a non-gpl project?
18:03:34  <andythenorth> yes
18:03:34  <Ammler> ah, that I don't care
18:03:40  <andythenorth> and distribute it
18:03:48  <andythenorth> thereby severing the virality of gpl
18:03:50  <Ammler> or rahter, that is not my buissness
18:04:04  <planetmaker> a license change like that probably would allow that. And as the implications are... at least very fuzzy
18:04:46  <andythenorth> the complicated bit is the attempt to preserve GPL for part of the code
18:04:56  <planetmaker> I don't see any need to re-license any of my work under anything different than GPL currently
18:04:56  <andythenorth> the library exception examples *don't* do that
18:05:13  <andythenorth> trying to preserve GPL in a non-GPL context is maybe viable, but a bit of a cluster fuck really
18:05:21  <planetmaker> ^^
18:05:52  <planetmaker> Adding such exception here, that's the wrong path to go IMHO
18:06:50  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Support #3791: GPL exception for graphics from 3D models (Ammler) @
18:06:56  <planetmaker> and anyway... unless I say 'yes', non of my work can be re-licensed ;-) Other people's work is not in my hands
18:07:39  <andythenorth> it basically lands a complexity bomb on people downstream
18:07:47  <andythenorth> so I take sets and make set 'A'
18:08:02  <andythenorth> which is now a mix of GPL, and 13 different 3D model licenses
18:08:16  <andythenorth> now Bob wants to distribute.  Does Bob have rights to do that?
18:08:28  <Ammler> andythenorth: so basically with that exception, it could be used to make the locomotion 32bpp set and license that with ND, right?
18:08:32  <andythenorth> now Sue wants to modify A and produce B.  Does sue have rights to that?
18:08:45  <andythenorth> if Sue figures it out and produces B, can she distribute?
18:08:48  <andythenorth> and so on :P
18:08:54  <andythenorth> GPL avoids all this crap
18:09:01  <andythenorth> Ammler: yes
18:09:12  <planetmaker> andythenorth, exactly that's the main reason I don't like it. It is bound to create more headaches than I'm ready to have. Downstream
18:09:18  <andythenorth>'d have to comply with the GPL for the code part, but GPL doesn't allow that
18:10:05  <andythenorth> it's basically a bad idea :P
18:10:08  <planetmaker> actually not Locomotion, but the models for MS Trains simulator
18:10:25  <planetmaker> which IllegalAlien has special permission to create sprites from
18:10:39  <andythenorth> it gains nothing except headaches
18:10:50  <planetmaker> And this would be the same thing, just OpenTTD instead of Locomotion
18:10:52  <andythenorth> the correct solution is simply to dual license,
18:11:00  <planetmaker> But... I don't want Locomotion license headaches here
18:12:11  <Ammler> I am fine to host duallicend stuff for existing things, but I would not support new projects with something else as GPLv2+
18:12:51  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
18:12:57  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
18:13:45  <Ammler> and since we got donations for the hosting, we should even more care, that the hosted stuff can be reused
18:16:04  <andythenorth> so tell him it's against devzone policy
18:16:10  <andythenorth> GPL or bust
18:16:48  <andythenorth> don't engage in to or fro, it's just policy
18:16:51  <andythenorth> :)
18:16:55  <Ammler> hehe, that is not up to me, I just would not support it :-P
18:17:11  <andythenorth> well who is in charge of devzone?
18:17:28  <Ammler> the community :-)
18:17:29  <andythenorth> don't tell me it's community managed :P
18:17:36  <Ammler> :-D
18:18:24  <Ammler> well, one thing is special, if you don't use a license for your stuff, it is GPL, not sure, if that is legal
18:18:44  <andythenorth> that's according to terms of use?
18:18:54  <andythenorth> just enforce GPL and be done with it
18:18:56  <andythenorth> :P
18:19:01  <Ammler> yes, written on the frontpage
18:19:02  <andythenorth> send detractors to me, or /dev/null
18:19:04  <planetmaker> That's the TOS of devzone, yes
18:20:20  <andythenorth> who are the named administrators of the service?
18:21:04  <planetmaker> of devzone? Ammler, Yexo, me
18:21:19  <andythenorth> how many of you constitutes a quorum for decision making?
18:21:24  <andythenorth> 1? 2? 3?
18:21:28  <Ammler> 1
18:21:31  <planetmaker> :-P
18:21:34  <Ammler> I do something
18:21:39  <andythenorth> there you go then
18:21:45  <Ammler> and maybe planetmaker devotes :-)
18:21:47  <andythenorth> other licenses only by decision of devzone admin
18:22:04  <andythenorth> you even have all the boring bueureaeacaacracy in place already
18:22:13  * andythenorth can't spell that word, and dislikes it a lot
18:22:13  <Ammler> or pm does something and I (dis)agree
18:22:22  <planetmaker> :-D
18:22:48  * andythenorth -> bathing baby
18:22:57  * planetmaker -> dinner
18:22:58  <andythenorth> I'd tell OH flat no btw
18:23:09  <planetmaker> I did ;-)
18:23:35  <andythenorth> "GPL or bust"
18:23:37  <andythenorth> ;)
18:24:01  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
18:24:37  <Ammler> I like the idea to "force" the community to make gpl stuff
18:25:13  <Ammler> it is so ugly on a lot other communities where arthists are so selfish and pitty with their stuff
18:26:06  <Ammler> it might be ok for "mods" to proprietary stuff
19:12:54  *** Zuu has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
19:20:05  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
19:27:55  *** LordAro has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
19:40:37  *** JVassie has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
19:45:55  <Brot6> Dutch Track Set - Revision 0:5222eecdb0fd: Init: set up repo (foobar) @
19:55:09  <Brot6> Central European Train Set - Code Review #3852 (New): sprite offsets (Eddi) @
21:32:19  *** ODM has quit IRC
21:46:59  <Yexo> a few hours late, but my view on the subject: if whoever wants to have their project be non-GPL, that's no problem at all, just not on the devzone
21:47:40  <Yexo> Everyone should be free to make their own choice, I don't see it as particularly bad that people want another license
21:47:53  <Yexo> that doesn't mean I'm going to help code for them or provide services when they do
21:48:08  <Yexo> and they can't reuse my code, but that's their choice
21:51:12  <Yexo> planetmaker: do you have time soon to take a look at the graphics/code that GeekToo posted (the ground tiles)?
21:51:42  <Yexo> if not I'll start working on it, but it'll take a few days and I'd like to avoid a duplication of efforts
21:51:59  <Yexo> but neither do I want to have them wait a long time after the offer to code available sprites
21:56:42  *** andythenorth has left #openttdcoop.devzone
21:57:11  <planetmaker> I didn't notice yet - where is that code?
22:01:59  <planetmaker> ah... tt-forums
22:03:18  <planetmaker> I guess that can be added to ogfx+landscape as-is.
22:03:31  <planetmaker> except the emtpy 8bpp normal zoom ;-)
22:04:55  <Yexo> it needs to be looked at properly to see if those groundsprites are out of bounds
22:05:08  <Yexo> and if so, if that leads to any problems
22:05:59  <planetmaker> you if they are larger than a ground sprite actually should be?
22:06:46  <Yexo> sorry?
22:08:26  <planetmaker> :-) Let's put it as a question: what exactly do you mean with 'out of bounds'?
22:08:36  <planetmaker> dimensions unsuitable for a ground tile?
22:08:47  <Yexo> aren't those the sprites with grass that goes over the tile edges?
22:08:56  <planetmaker> it does not look like that
22:09:01  <Yexo> ok, great :)
22:09:21  <planetmaker> from the screenshot at least. But yes, if I see those, I won't use them
22:11:16  <planetmaker> hm, what was the syntax to assign a block name to a basesprite?
22:11:28  <Yexo> basesprite name (num...) ?
22:11:28  <frosch123> just cut the top edge and paste it at the bottom :)
22:11:53  <planetmaker> ah, nvm. yes
22:12:03  <planetmaker> frosch123: yes. But I'd leave that to the artist ;-)
22:14:03  <planetmaker> hm... I really hate all those sprites being each in a separate file :-(
22:14:10  <planetmaker> makes templating a real PITA
22:16:26  <Yexo> you can put the filename in the template
22:16:59  <planetmaker> for a ground tile I'd like to use one template for all 19 :-)
22:17:14  <planetmaker> but yes, I can make 19 parameters to that template...
22:17:25  <planetmaker> but meh :-)
22:17:56  <Yexo> template (first_sprite) { [..., "path/to/sprite_" + (first_sprite + 0) + ".png"] [...., "path/to/sprite_" + (first_sprite + 1) + ".png"] ...} ?
22:18:29  <planetmaker> lol, that works?
22:18:41  <Yexo> probably not :p
22:19:08  <Yexo> it'll need a new builtin function to convert a compile-time number to a string
22:19:34  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
22:19:44  <Yexo> or implementing of str+int addition
22:21:59  <planetmaker> <-- I guess, in principle one could create a ground template which incorporates the zoom level as parameter which is used as multiplicator...
22:22:25  <planetmaker> but maybe not :-)
22:22:30  <planetmaker> too wide
22:23:01  <Yexo> good night
22:23:23  <planetmaker> g'night, Yexo
22:31:56  *** LordAro has quit IRC
22:36:27  <planetmaker> hm... looking at the offsets, though, Yexo, your fear wrt them might have been right...
23:06:41  *** JVassie has quit IRC
23:43:22  <Zuu> If that's plain python code you could do str(number) + "string". But I guess it's more complicated than that.
23:56:04  *** Zuu has quit IRC

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk