Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 11th April 2012:
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09:40:06  <Ammler> planetmaker: config
10:15:46  <planetmaker> which user does it run?
10:17:10  <Ammler> hg, how does that matter?
10:21:25  <planetmaker> doesn't quite matter. But would tell me where that script is
10:21:34  <planetmaker> with the repo misc/compiler it's well hidden :-P
10:22:24  <Ammler> I assumed that is known in the meantime
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12:03:14  <Brot6> Britrains (BROS based on CETS) - Feature #3902 (New): British Rail Class 254 'High Speed Train' (Leanden) @
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13:05:34  <Ammler> in firs: why is URL a translateable string?
13:35:33  <planetmaker> Ammler: it's a string
13:35:45  <planetmaker> and each string is translatable as it's in the language file
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14:25:20  <planetmaker> welcome :-)
14:25:27  <Xotic750> thanks :)
14:25:59  <planetmaker> I'm reading your message now
14:26:13  <Xotic750> ok
14:27:23  <planetmaker> ok, wrt sprites: all in one file or each sprite a single one: one should use whatever offers itself when rendering sprites. You say it's single files, then it shall be single files
14:27:37  <planetmaker> I'd then just make sub-directories for each vehicle or so
14:30:20  <planetmaker> wrt shadows... well... I think vehicles never had shadows... I'm not sure how that works with foundations or walls adjacent and behind them. Does that look ok?
14:30:22  <Xotic750> that would be in src/gfx/engines
14:30:43  <planetmaker> yes. I'd even go for src/gfx/engines/sh125 and similar
14:30:57  <planetmaker> as it will be many sprites :-)
14:31:24  <Xotic750> yes, lots of sprites
14:31:27  <planetmaker> wrt offsets: sprites need to use those offsets which makes them look good
14:31:38  <planetmaker> simply use those which you did so far
14:31:59  <Xotic750> so I would include my current template system
14:32:03  <planetmaker> I guess within this set it'd be the OpenGFX offsets, but you seem to have them
14:32:32  <Xotic750> yes, I made templates for ttd, opengfx and all others that match opengfx+
14:32:40  <planetmaker> wrt the TTD offsets: yes, I actually want them. But that will need to change them on all vehicles or we get inconsistent here
14:32:49  <planetmaker> Thus all existing templates will need a look at
14:33:41  <Xotic750> the shadows work fairly well in 32bpp but I remove the ground shadows in my 8bpp and menu sprites
14:33:49  <planetmaker> ah, ok. Very good
14:34:36  <planetmaker> OpenGFX+ does not yet have specific menu sprites. But I shall be happy to introduce them, if needed or desired
14:35:31  <Xotic750> the 32bpp sprites look fairly crappy with ground shadows in the menu IMHO
14:35:50  <planetmaker> quite right. Thus the NewGRF should get menu sprites
14:37:58  <planetmaker> wrt replacing the 8bpp sprites I'm undecided. Probably it's the right thing to do, though.
14:38:07  <planetmaker> as it ensures a uniform look
14:39:32  <planetmaker> what do Ammler, Yexo, Hirundo and Terkhen think of replacing the engines in OpenGFX+ Trains by the 8bpp version of the rendered engines so that both 32bpp and 8bpp look as similar as reasonably possible?
14:39:39  <Xotic750> or a parameter, as your hand drawn baseset is complete
14:39:55  <Xotic750> and it will take a long time to get all those modelled
14:40:40  <planetmaker> could be. Though I wonder whether that parameter is needed. You basically have the same, if you play with 32bpp blitter w/o any parameter and the full 8bpp if you play with 8bpp blitter
14:41:03  <planetmaker> My suggestion is to add the sprites to the repository but not (yet) use them
14:41:12  <planetmaker> changing the 8bpp sprites then later is easy
14:41:24  <planetmaker> I always fear a bit parameter-mania :-)
14:41:38  <Xotic750> ok :)
14:42:09  <planetmaker> can you actually build the NewGRF from the makefile it has?
14:42:38  <Xotic750> OpenGFX+, yes I built it here
14:42:56  <Xotic750> of course I was not using make for my project
14:43:20  <planetmaker> why "of course"?
14:43:59  <planetmaker> (actually I think the build process in this makefile could possibly be improved quite a bit)
14:44:01  <Xotic750> I was using simple shell scripts for everything
14:44:22  <Xotic750> and calling gimp scripts
14:44:34  <Xotic750> and a single nml file for everything
14:44:44  <planetmaker> hm, you use gimp scripts to build the sprites, right?
14:44:55  <Xotic750> yep, everything is as a template
14:45:10  <Xotic750> create the model, then render
14:45:19  <Xotic750> most of the hard work is done in blender itself
14:45:32  <Xotic750> making the masks in the renedering passes
14:45:42  <planetmaker> ok, that should go into the makefile, too. It could actually be that the makefile simply calls the shell script
14:46:00  <Xotic750> then using gimp to rescale, colour things and crop
14:46:36  <Xotic750> and merge images
14:47:29  <planetmaker> is it done on a per-sprite basis?
14:47:39  <planetmaker> or on a per-vehicle basis?
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14:48:00  <Xotic750> each model has 8 angles
14:48:17  <Xotic750> and creates a number of output files
14:48:47  <Xotic750> then the batch works on that model alone to create the sprites from the rendered graphics
14:49:47  <Xotic750> here you can view the raw rendered output
14:49:48  <Xotic750>
14:49:49  <Webster> Title: 8-32bpp-SH125-2CC/output at master · Xotic750/8-32bpp-SH125-2CC · GitHub (at
14:50:18  <Xotic750> and here is the result after post-processing
14:50:19  <Xotic750>
14:50:20  <Webster> Title: 8-32bpp-SH125-2CC/NewGRF/gfx at master · Xotic750/8-32bpp-SH125-2CC · GitHub (at
14:51:36  <Xotic750> the post-processing scripts are very simple, without any error checking
14:51:59  <Xotic750> as long as everything is as it should be then all goes well :)
14:52:56  <planetmaker> aye. ok. So this script needs simply calling. To make it really proper thus that make knows whether it needs calling (and calling only once) requires a bit careful testing. But for now we could simply call the build script...
14:53:13  <planetmaker> any error will be noticed sooner or later by building anyway
14:55:09  <Xotic750> the first script is and that just runs blender
14:55:28  <Xotic750> the next is which does all the gimp work
14:55:46  <Xotic750> and the final is that runs nmlc
14:56:32  <planetmaker> I see
14:56:49  <Xotic750> all my blender models use the same template to create the raw images
14:57:05  <Xotic750> the postprocessing script is the same for each model
14:57:39  <Xotic750> and just gets everything together into the right sprite size and format
14:57:52  <Xotic750> then the nml uses a standard template for all the offsets
14:58:11  <Xotic750> makes the process pretty easy
14:59:06  <Xotic750> I'm sure you understand betters than me, it took me a number of weeks to figure out all the steps required :)
15:03:42  <planetmaker> I only see the s125.blend file there
15:04:11  <planetmaker> does each model need a separate file there?
15:04:15  <Xotic750> I have done each model as a separate project
15:04:38  <planetmaker> oh
15:04:45  <Xotic750>
15:04:46  <Webster> Title: Xotic750 · GitHub (at
15:04:54  <Xotic750> then I have a main project
15:05:10  <Xotic750> that downloads them as git submodules
15:05:30  <Xotic750>
15:05:31  <Webster> Title: Xotic750/8-32bpp-TRAINS-2CC · GitHub (at
15:05:43  <planetmaker> Now I understand. So each project is built the sprites. And then combined
15:05:50  <Xotic750> yes
15:06:49  <Xotic750> modular and templated, so to speak
15:07:31  <Xotic750> the only real difference per module, is the blender model itself
15:15:14  <planetmaker> are the pngs part of your repo?
15:15:34  <planetmaker> seems like, yes
15:15:57  <Xotic750> yes, I upload them so people do not need to render them and post-process them
15:16:10  <planetmaker> yes, I do the same with OpenGFX
15:16:37  <Xotic750> it would take a few hours to do all of that from scratch :)
15:16:50  <planetmaker> ui
15:16:56  <planetmaker> that *is* long
15:17:32  <Xotic750> it takes about 1.5 hours per model on my machine
15:17:35  <planetmaker> ok, may I suggest how to proceed: I'd add the build scripts for the pngs (with adopted paths) to the scripts dir of OpenGFX+ Trains
15:17:59  <planetmaker> Also add the other files as appropriate in the gfx dir
15:18:44  <planetmaker> thus one can (manually) re-build the pngs via those scripts
15:19:33  <planetmaker> I'll consider it my task to integrate that into the makefile so that it will be executed automatically, if maintainer-clean is called (which deletes those pngs which can be re-generated)
15:20:17  <Xotic750> so, add the raw renders and the post-processed sprites
15:20:31  <Xotic750> and a for each model
15:21:16  <Xotic750> plus I guess the .blend file somewhere
15:21:20  <planetmaker> yup
15:21:29  <planetmaker> so basically what you have in the sub-projects
15:21:44  <Xotic750> yup
15:21:52  <planetmaker> wrt the naming of the zoom levels, personally I'd prefer a more meaningful than z0, z1 and z2, though
15:22:01  <planetmaker> like 4x, 2x, 1x or so
15:22:04  <Brot6> Britrains (BROS based on CETS) - Feature #3902: British Rail Class 254 'High Speed Train' (Leanden) @
15:22:14  <planetmaker> or rather in4x, in2x and 1x maybe
15:22:38  <planetmaker> is that feasible w/o much issue?
15:22:41  <Xotic750> ok, I can modify the script to do that
15:23:02  <Brot6> Britrains (BROS based on CETS) - Feature #3903 (New): BR Class 253 'High Speed Train' (Leanden) @
15:23:05  <Xotic750> I can add variables so it can be easily altered
15:23:14  <Xotic750> like with the paths
15:23:55  <planetmaker> well. I don't mind exactly. But might be the best solution
15:24:13  <Xotic750> the main issue is that the scripts are only designed for linux
15:24:28  <Xotic750> but that maybe a non issue for you
15:24:28  <planetmaker> that's not a huge issue
15:24:47  <planetmaker> also OSX uses bash
15:24:57  <planetmaker> and for windows there's cygwin
15:25:07  <Xotic750> ok
15:25:31  <Brot6> Britrains (BROS based on CETS) - Feature #3903: BR Class 253 'High Speed Train' (Leanden) @
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15:28:15  <Xotic750> the postprocess script could be modified to take parameters if needed so that only 1 script is required and you pass the parameters (path and model) if you so desired
15:28:28  <Xotic750> but I guess for now a separate script is easiest
15:28:35  <Xotic750> for each model
15:30:18  <planetmaker> yes, that should be done. But for now it's ok to have it separate
15:30:53  <planetmaker> I'd consider that part of integrating it properly in the makefile
15:32:05  <Xotic750> ok, I will begin making changes to my project to change the filenames of the pngs to something more desireable first
15:32:31  <Xotic750> then I will begin with uploading the artwork and source
15:32:48  <Xotic750> and the postprocess script
15:33:18  <Xotic750> then we can have a go at adding a model
15:33:37  <Xotic750> to the nml, somewhere, along with it's templates
15:34:39  <Xotic750> If I make some horrible error while using Mercurial, can you easily back it out?
15:56:30  <planetmaker> I'd not like to alter history on the server. But it's a VCS - thus anything can be undone
15:56:39  <planetmaker> You can't "destroy" it.
15:57:29  <planetmaker> After all, you also have a local copy. So you'll always see whether you destroyed something :-)
15:58:14  <planetmaker> sorry, Xotic750, was a bit afk :-)
15:58:27  <planetmaker> RL interfering
15:59:14  <Xotic750> I'll give it a try once I have a model ready, may be a couple of days depending ;)
16:10:36  <planetmaker> no rush. But will be nice to get this off the ground :-)
16:12:41  <Xotic750> where should the gimp scripts go?
16:13:08  <planetmaker> in ./scripts
16:13:19  <planetmaker> hm... they are graphics-specific?
16:13:31  <planetmaker> then they probably should go next to the graphics
16:13:41  <planetmaker> next to the graphics
16:14:02  <Xotic750> they are common to all models
16:14:19  <Xotic750> they perform crop, merge, etc etc
16:14:54  <Xotic750> and palette selection
16:15:08  <Xotic750> aha, where should the palettes go? :P
16:15:19  <planetmaker> if they're common and unspecific: put it in ./scripts
16:15:32  <planetmaker> also ./scripts
16:15:46  <planetmaker> it's all which is associated with the build system in general
16:16:10  <Xotic750> ok
16:16:53  <Xotic750> does you makefile handle installing the gimp scripts and palettes for gimp? or is that a manual thing like in my project?
16:17:23  <planetmaker> so far I didn't need to explain a palette to gimp
16:17:47  <planetmaker> nor did I install a script. But they were called by gimp -b -i - < scriptfile
16:20:24  <planetmaker> the scriptfile in these cases is specific to the resulting png file
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16:22:40  <planetmaker> so far I use specific script files as I export different layers for different pngs from the same xcf file
16:22:40  <Xotic750> ok, I installed the gimp scripts an palettes in my .gimp directory in my home, then gimp knows where to find them
16:22:46  <Xotic750> gimp -i -b "(batch-crop \""$DST8"/*_z0.png\" $CROPX1 $CROPY1 $CROPX2 $CROPY2)" -b "(gimp-quit 0)"
16:23:23  <planetmaker> so that's not done with the script, right?
16:23:25  <Xotic750> maybe I just put a path in front of them
16:23:35  <Xotic750> nope
16:23:56  <Xotic750> manually copy them to my .gimp in my home
16:23:59  <planetmaker> you assume some specific names?
16:24:58  <Xotic750>
16:25:00  <Webster> Title: 8-32bpp-SH125-2CC/gimp at master · Xotic750/8-32bpp-SH125-2CC · GitHub (at
16:25:21  <Xotic750> these are all the gimp scripts and palettes I use for post-processing, same for all models
16:26:19  <Xotic750> I copy them to my .gimp config folder
16:27:02  <Xotic750> that is how gimp show their examples
16:27:37  <Xotic750> but perhaps I can put a relative directory in front of the gimp script name, not sure
16:28:03  <planetmaker> yes... but installing very specific scripts is bad for a makefile usually. One can input a script with relative path to the caller the way I quoted:
16:28:10  <planetmaker> gimpe -i -b - < scriptname
16:28:27  <planetmaker> then it needs no install
16:28:50  <Xotic750> so, like this
16:28:51  <Xotic750> gimp -i -b "(./scripts/batch-crop \""$DST8"/*_z0.png\" $CROPX1 $CROPY1 $CROPX2 $CROPY2)" -b "(gimp-quit 0)"
16:29:23  <planetmaker> you could make the (gimp-quit 0) part of the same script. Probably should even
16:30:12  <planetmaker> or was there a reason to use it as separate one?
16:30:22  <Xotic750> but not sure how I should reference the palettes though, they are in the gimp scripts themselves
16:30:38  <Xotic750> it was how the examples were on the gimp home site
16:31:56  <Xotic750> I've had to learn everything from scratch, blender, gimp, etc etc, so it is the only way I currently know
16:33:40  <Xotic750> here is a palette conversion
16:33:42  <Xotic750> gimp -i -b "(batch-image-convert-indexed \""$POSTCC2"/*_z0m.png\" \"ttd-newgrf-cc2only\")" -b "(gimp-quit 0)"
16:33:51  <Xotic750> then perhaps like this
16:34:00  <Xotic750> gimp -i -b "(batch-image-convert-indexed \""$POSTCC2"/*_z0m.png\" \"./scripts/ttd-newgrf-cc2only\")" -b "(gimp-quit 0)"
16:35:00  <Xotic750> I guess I have some reading and playing around to do to get things working
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16:40:00  <Xotic750> for mask files, do you still want to use an "m" to denote them? e.g. "0001_4xm.png"
16:41:12  <planetmaker> would work for me. Or one could use "mask" directly. It's not like a letter more or less hurts us
16:49:23  <Xotic750> well, got to go now, so will come back to you when I have something working ;)
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17:01:40  <Terkhen> planetmaker: can I check the rendered 8bpp version against the old versions somewhere?
17:01:44  <Terkhen> also, hello :)
17:05:52  <planetmaker> hi Terkhen
17:06:08  <planetmaker> it's the sprites / newgrf which xotic already put on bananas
17:06:19  <planetmaker> he adjusted the height scale, so they look nice now
17:06:52  <planetmaker> and adding those 32bpp here is good, also politically good :-)
17:07:45  <planetmaker> I don't have an exact comparison...
17:07:49  <planetmaker> ^^ from his thread
17:08:42  <planetmaker> <-- thread
17:08:43  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - 8/32bpp Trains 2CC - Release topic (at
17:10:21  <Terkhen> ok, let's see :)
17:15:04  <Terkhen> nice title game
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17:20:55  <Terkhen> wow, huge
17:27:48  <Brot6> firs: update from r2726 to r2727 done -
17:31:17  <Terkhen> it seems that after loading a 32bpp NewGRF the game is in 32bpp mode (because my font is suddenly getting antialiasing)
17:31:22  <Terkhen> I suppose that it does not matter
17:31:54  <Terkhen> the new graphics look better, maybe less toyish
17:31:59  <Terkhen> I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not
17:32:28  <planetmaker> imho it's good for the non-toyland trains
17:32:43  <planetmaker> they have the same scale as the 8bpp vehicles
17:32:53  <Terkhen> I suppose that the same de-toyfication would happen for the rest of the graphics too
17:33:04  <planetmaker> which rest?
17:33:12  <Terkhen> other vehicles, industries, houses
17:33:24  <planetmaker> oh, you compare existing trains sprites vs. those?
17:33:26  <planetmaker> hm.
17:34:13  <planetmaker> probably. the 32bpp artists are usually into 'realism'
17:34:54  <Terkhen> OpenGFX does not keep the style as closely as the original graphics do, but the new trains break OpenGFX style completely
17:35:12  <Terkhen> if the plan is to convert all graphics to the new realistic style eventually, then I'm okay with the change
17:35:53  <planetmaker> I guess we only get realistic 32bpp. We could keep the 8bpp as-is. At least for now
17:36:07  <planetmaker> thus users have the choice actually
17:36:32  <Terkhen> yeah, a choice would be nice
17:36:48  <planetmaker> then the choice is using 8bpp (traditional style) or 32bpp (realistic style)
17:36:55  <Terkhen> but it could always be a different base set
17:37:03  <Terkhen> no need for switches or other complicated things
17:37:04  <planetmaker> strange thing to differ it this way, as ^^
17:37:48  <planetmaker> I'd not add a switch anywhere
17:38:05  <planetmaker> The question IMHO we have is: do we replace the 8bpp. Or do we only add these as 32bpp
17:38:45  <planetmaker> I take your reaction as "keep the 8bpp as-is"?
17:38:54  <Terkhen> I would replace 8bpp too
17:38:58  <planetmaker> he
17:39:00  <planetmaker> :-)
17:39:13  <Terkhen> if someone wants the old graphics, they can always be released as a different, 8bpp only base set / NewGRF
17:39:33  <Terkhen> the development overhead of keeping both graphics could be too much
17:40:05  <planetmaker> in the whole discussion with xotic today we agreed to add the 8bpp graphics to the repo and replace the existing 8bpp only when we have 32bpp for all. Sounds reasonableß
17:40:10  <planetmaker> s/ß/?/
17:40:11  <frosch123> the current 8bpp sprites may look better than dithered 32bpp sprites
17:40:44  <planetmaker> (I asked before the discussion)
17:40:51  <frosch123> i think it is quite hard to make the 32bpp sprites look good in 8bpp
17:41:42  <frosch123> oh, and if company colours are involved the conversion is even quite non-trivial :s
17:42:21  <planetmaker> he has some gimp scripts there which creates all that from the blender file
17:42:32  <planetmaker> thus he knows exactly where to put CC
17:45:53  <Terkhen> I did not try in 8bpp, maybe they look worse
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17:47:11  <planetmaker> in any case, I invited him to add these as 32bpp version to OpenGFX+ Trains.
17:47:19  <planetmaker> And he seems quite willing to do so
17:47:33  <planetmaker> which makes me happy :-)
17:48:06  <Terkhen> nice :)
17:49:46  <Terkhen> can I force OpenTTD to stay in 8bpp somehow?
17:49:56  * Terkhen has not played lately :)
17:49:56  <frosch123> with the -b option
17:49:59  <Terkhen> ok
17:50:12  <frosch123> -b 8bpp-optimized
17:50:50  <Terkhen> they look... ugly
17:51:19  <Terkhen> I wonder if many people will be using 8bpp if you need to force it
17:51:44  <planetmaker> so... good decision to keep it 32bpp only. I think it should become an option in the game options dialoge where you set language and base sets
17:52:03  <planetmaker> (the latter references blitter)
17:52:10  <frosch123> Terkhen: i think the idea was that every machine capable of 32bpp runs 32bpp
17:52:22  <frosch123> while the rest can get stripped newgrfs without 32bpp
17:52:32  <Terkhen> what are possible reasons for choosing 8bpp over 32bpp? is 8bpp faster?
17:52:44  <Rubidium> Terkhen: depending on the hardware and drivers, yes
17:53:15  <Rubidium> at least the initial blitting, then actual GPU stuff can be (i.e. is) done in a seperate thread
17:53:46  <Rubidium> having said that, also a machine not capable on 32bpp can run with the 32bpp blitter
17:53:59  <Rubidium> s/on/of/
17:54:06  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2.0 - Feature #3899: Postrijtuigen and similar (Voyager1) @
17:54:20  <Rubidium> as I've seen with the sparc qemu emulator (8 bits X)
17:55:00  <Brot6> opengfx: update from r970 to r972 done -
17:55:49  <Terkhen> I see... better to keep it as 32bpp only then
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17:58:26  <Brot6> dutchtrains: update from r438 to r441 done -
17:59:51  <Brot6> dutchtracks: update from r61 to r63 done -
18:03:23  <Brot6> make-nml: compile of r0 still failed (#3730) -
18:04:07  <Brot6> metrotrackset: compile of r59 still failed (#3882) -
19:51:04  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2.0 - Revision 442:30a4f5dddd86: Feature: Mat '24 motorcar (graphics by Voyager One) (i... (foobar) @
19:51:04  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2.0 - Revision 443:e17905edb48c: Feature: Mat '24 coach (graphics by Voyager One) (clos... (foobar) @
19:51:04  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2.0 - Feature #3798 (Closed): Mat '24 (foobar) @
20:11:32  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2.0 - Revision 444:056571bf8df2: Change: sort order of coaches (foobar) @
20:11:33  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2.0 - Revision 445:c54f6cc7c3fd: Feature: Mat '24 "Jules" livery (graphics by Voyager O... (foobar) @
20:11:33  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2.0 - Revision 446:f536ebfeb8bc: Fix: variable scope of Mat '24 (foobar) @
20:12:48  <Brot6> Britrains (BROS based on CETS) - Feature #3902: British Rail Class 254 'High Speed Train' (Leanden) @
20:17:41  <Brot6> Britrains (BROS based on CETS) - Feature #3902: British Rail Class 254 'High Speed Train' (Leanden) @
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21:43:48  <V453000> ello, does anyone happen to know why the train_flag_tilt makes no effect on this vehicle please? :(
21:49:23  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2.0 - Revision 447:3935bdb7ee40: Fix: use parent scope for motion_counter variable of s... (foobar) @
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23:13:09  <Ammler> I vote for replace only, if you are able to replace all

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