Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 1st June 2012:
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06:59:16  <V453000> brake wagon? o_O
07:05:47  <planetmaker> Xotic750: the wagon itself should not change upon refit. Thus different cargos should and IMHO must not change the wagon colour
07:07:43  <planetmaker> the only differciantion for the same wagon with different cargos should be... the cargo itself
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07:11:47  <planetmaker> Xotic750: and wrt break van... I do not want a mandatory break van in this set
07:12:24  <planetmaker> Xotic750: i.e. the NARS and UKRS way that slightly longer trains won't work without is something I definitely want to avoid
07:12:48  <planetmaker> Xotic750: as that is IMHO gameplay wise a broken concept
07:13:35  <planetmaker> Xotic750: as it adds nothing except hassle for the sake of "realism" (whatever that is). But we want gameplay fun.
07:14:08  <planetmaker> Xotic750: thus I really don't know a way we can make a use of a break van at all
07:15:34  <planetmaker> Xotic750: the only possible path I see for it is to have a bonus effect like increasing the cargo payment of the train or so when attached. Similar to possible later restaurant wagons.
07:16:28  <V453000> I agree with planetmaker on the brake van aspect, strongly agree
07:17:26  <V453000> and I thought the same, I have no idea how to make it suitably ... for example tropic refurbishment set has it only there, if you want use it, if not you dont have to
07:17:33  <V453000> I guess that could be an option
07:18:11  <V453000> payment is hard to say, as you reduce the capacity of the wagon and only gain money for it
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07:53:46  <planetmaker> using a parameter surely is another option. But meh... too many parameters are at a certain point also a PITA ;-)
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09:27:54  <Xotic750> I have found them useful in the past when I want to mix different speed trains onto the same track, so I would likely use them in some of my games
09:28:51  <V453000> ^ how does that help? :o
09:28:55  <Xotic750> I never considered it as some kind of enforcement
09:30:25  <V453000> yeah but why do you add a brake van to the trains
09:31:51  <Xotic750> it means that I can have all my trains running at the same speed, even if they are faster
09:32:48  <V453000> oh, speed limit for brake van?
09:32:57  <V453000> :S
09:33:10  <V453000> ah I see you use speed limits for wagons?
09:33:28  <V453000> just make each generation of wagons have the same speed I would suggest
09:33:56  <V453000> so they dont differ within a generation
09:36:41  <planetmaker> Xotic750: it's not useful for that purpose at all. Simply give the trains the order to travel XX km/h and you're done
09:37:54  <planetmaker> using a break van to speed limit trains is a no-go for me
09:38:59  <planetmaker> really shouldn't we not only add vehicles to this set which we know we're going to add and how?
09:39:20  <Xotic750> they also had the uniqueness other than braking. The vehicle also provides a compartment for the guard, a luggage compartment, and sometimes passenger accommodation, as well.
09:39:47  <Xotic750> just thought we may use one
09:40:00  <planetmaker> well: how?
09:40:32  <planetmaker> making them a requirement to have trains travel normally like in ukrs/nars is painful
09:40:39  <planetmaker> and boring
09:41:37  <Xotic750> I#m not sure, you mentioned about creating dining cars in the past, so I thought this may well fit also
09:42:38  <Xotic750> I wasn't thinking about them being a requirement
09:43:16  <planetmaker> as a mix of mail/valuables/passenger wagon? what does it add in that case?
09:43:58  <Xotic750> a user choice
09:44:20  <Xotic750> but sure pasenger/mail
09:44:37  <Xotic750> or passenger/boxed goods
09:45:07  <planetmaker> really. I still don't see how it works wrt gameplay
09:45:21  <planetmaker> as you surely don't want to allow a train consisting only of breakvans
09:45:54  <Xotic750> oh well, it was just an idea
09:46:15  <planetmaker> well. what kind of idea? That is my question
09:46:28  <planetmaker> I really don't mind. But I don't see how the wagon works
09:46:45  <planetmaker> I have no concept for it which I do see
09:47:09  <planetmaker> So convince me with a concept, if you like it :-)
09:47:12  <Xotic750> as a break van for limiting speed, while carrying passengers and some other goods at the same time
09:47:31  <planetmaker> limiting speed is bad. You can do that without any newgrf. Just by train orders
09:47:43  <planetmaker> wagons anyway have already a speed limit.
09:48:07  <planetmaker> so speed limit is not an argument for me, I'm afraid.
09:48:25  <V453000> ogfx+ trains will have speed limits now?
09:48:43  <planetmaker> V453000: wagons do have a speed limit. Of course it does not apply, if you play w/o wagon speed limits
09:48:51  <planetmaker> So there's no pain in giving wagons a speed limit
09:49:03  <planetmaker> I don't like such speed limit, but I don't play with that setting enabled. So...
09:49:09  <planetmaker> ... it's for those who like it
09:49:11  <V453000> yeah sure
09:49:47  <Xotic750> I don't play enough, but I know that I used them in the past, and it seemed quite nice to have one :)
09:50:09  <Xotic750> but it's no big deal, just wanted to create it
09:50:19  <planetmaker> speed limits are either imposed by each wagon (if you play with wagon speed limits). And they can always be set in the train's orders.
09:50:36  <planetmaker> No need for a 3rd concept which especially breaks AIs and needs extensive explanation also to players. Just a PITA
09:50:44  <V453000> well the train order setting is a bit of a pain with upgrading as you have to set the orders again
09:51:05  <planetmaker> V453000: does the speed limit in orders cancel when upgrading / renewing train?!
09:51:10  <V453000> no
09:51:13  <planetmaker> good
09:51:43  <planetmaker> you mean when you upgrade the whole fleet of trains? well... yes
09:51:45  <V453000> but when you upgrade trains you probably want to increase that speed, so your previously unlimited trains dont actually go faster
09:51:50  <planetmaker> but then you don't need to use it
09:52:40  <V453000> you do, but the solution is a bit awkward in general
09:54:34  <V453000> because for example if you have 2 classes, typically in nuts but also in other sets - cargo trains are slower than passenger trains
09:54:46  <planetmaker> yes?
09:54:47  <V453000> but then you upgrade all trains to another generation, so both are faster than previously
09:54:58  <V453000> and pax trains were limited, say, to 150 kmh
09:55:14  <V453000> now if you upgrade cargo trains to 160kmh, pax trains get upgraded too but still go 150kmh
09:55:18  <planetmaker> you have to upgrade the speed limit for pax trains then
09:55:22  <V453000> yeah exactly
09:55:44  <planetmaker> so, what's the solution in your eyes?
09:56:01  <V453000> which makes that limit solution a bit painful ... but anyone can solve that simply by using the same trains for pax and cargo, all cargo trains are able to haul pax wagons I think
09:56:09  <V453000> nothing really, just not using the feature for that
09:57:47  <V453000> it is usable for a network which is at the final state and wont replace anymore, of course
09:58:18  <planetmaker> changing the orders on a few train groups seems not that painful to me
09:58:26  <V453000> few is relative
09:58:37  <planetmaker> compared to non-mixing trains at all
09:59:18  <V453000> sure but any automatization/less slave labour on larger networks is good
10:01:01  <planetmaker> Xotic750: but for new vehicles we really should think about more in detail what we want and need
10:01:30  <V453000> how did the tenders end up?
10:02:17  <planetmaker> Xotic750: for the dining wagons for the modern MU trains that concept exists - at least in my head. The early vehicles as we plan, are a 'clone' of the existing modern ones with smaller size and reduced stats (capacity, speed) and diferent graphics basically.
10:02:34  <planetmaker> But adding new concepts really need more thought and discussion before we do that, IMHO
10:02:52  <planetmaker> discussing that in our bug tracker might be good. Then others could also comment
10:02:53  <Xotic750> It was during looking at the tender that I saw we have an 8bpp sprite created but it is 5/8 that I noticed we also had an 8bpp caboose
10:03:31  <planetmaker> yes, we have that. The missing concept kinda stopped me adding it. An idea I once had was to make it give the engine an additional power boost. But... not sure either
10:03:38  <planetmaker> rather would fit the tender
10:03:59  <planetmaker> V453000: tender is just a visual thing right now with additional space and weight to steam engines. Enabled or disabled via parameter
10:05:07  <V453000> :)
11:23:42  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 623:d56621f2b372: Update: Improve the animation script so that it perform... (Xotic750) @
12:39:40  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 624:857319db41c9: Update: Improve the animation script so that it cleans ... (Xotic750) @
14:55:20  <Ammler> Xotic750: how big of size would the repo be without render images?
14:55:47  <planetmaker> it would reduce the repo by... 25% or so
14:55:56  <Ammler> oh, only
14:56:09  <planetmaker> the 4x sprites are also not small ;-)
14:56:49  <Ammler> yes, I expected around 80% :-)
14:56:57  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 625:59664130bda3: Add: Models for a early bulk wagons (Xotic750) @
14:57:01  <planetmaker> let me check...
14:57:23  <planetmaker> I need to update from 344:tip, thus about 200 revs. Will take time :-P
14:58:05  <Ammler> if you "rerender" the same image, will it change?
14:58:32  <planetmaker> it should not. It's a deterministic process
14:58:37  <planetmaker> And all steps are scripted
14:58:59  <Ammler> but you use "should" ;-)
14:59:08  <planetmaker> I haven't tried
15:03:52  <Ammler> planetmaker: the build time of ogfx-trains is around 1h btw. :-)
15:05:37  <planetmaker> yes...
15:10:23  <frosch123> without cleaning the rendered files as i heard :p
15:10:41  <planetmaker> frosch123, without any rendering actually
15:11:01  <Ammler> rendering would just need another 10hours :-P
15:11:10  <frosch123> not 20?
15:11:16  <planetmaker> probably somewhere of that order
15:11:23  <planetmaker> not sure which :-)
15:11:56  <Ammler> openttd should render the images on startup ;-)
15:12:27  <Ammler> or well, we should get 3dttd
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15:22:14  <Xotic750> It renders deterministic to the local machine only
15:22:15  <Xotic750>
15:22:43  <Xotic750> I want to improve this somehow, using a hash of the file or something, but haven't got that far yet
15:22:59  <planetmaker> why does it differ between machines?
15:23:27  <Xotic750> when a render happens on the local machine, a file called raw_000X.exr is created
15:23:41  <Xotic750> this file is not saved in the repo
15:23:54  <Xotic750> there are 8 of them to every model, 1 for each view
15:24:05  <planetmaker> Ammler, re repo size:
15:24:12  <Xotic750> and they are the same size or a little bigger than an actual rendered view
15:24:47  <Xotic750> if that file exists and the actual render exists then it is skipped
15:25:02  <Xotic750> but this does not take into acount if a file changed
15:25:29  <Xotic750> and there are a number of file which would determine if a model should be re-renderd
15:25:39  <Xotic750> if a texture image changes
15:25:45  <Xotic750> if the library changes
15:25:51  <Xotic750> or if the model itself changed
15:26:32  <Xotic750> so, what I have implimented is really simple, and can be much better with work
15:26:32  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2 - Feature #3999 (New): DM'90 Buffel (Voyager1) @
15:27:14  <planetmaker> well. yes. But given the same checkout. Would two machines render the same resulting image?
15:27:37  <Xotic750> if they are using blender 2.63a and gimp 2.6 yes
15:27:48  <planetmaker> and if not?
15:28:03  <Xotic750> I can't say, I haven't tested other versions
15:28:09  <planetmaker> well. Other result. Actually the same may happen with using another NML version
15:28:21  <Xotic750> I know anything in the blender 2.6 line should give the same result
15:28:46  <planetmaker> important really is only: same tools on different machines should give same result
15:28:54  <Xotic750> yep
15:29:40  <Xotic750> my guess is that blender 2.4 + should be ok
15:29:49  <Xotic750> no idea about gimp
15:29:59  <planetmaker> probably, too
15:30:06  <planetmaker> 2.4+
15:30:40  <Xotic750> but yes, I need to start making md5 hashes of blend files and textures
15:30:54  <planetmaker> why?
15:30:55  <Xotic750> then I can make better decision on what needs rendering or not
15:31:00  <planetmaker> ah
15:31:13  <planetmaker> that could be part / extension of the makefile
15:31:54  <planetmaker> we could very simply extend that by a target like "render" or so
15:32:02  <planetmaker> which then calls the necessary steps
15:32:05  <Xotic750> there are probably a few bits, if not all of the script that could go into the makefile
15:32:07  <planetmaker> and render-dep
15:32:42  <Xotic750> I don't have any knowledge of the power of makefiles
15:32:55  <planetmaker> anything you can script
15:33:19  <planetmaker> their power is in deciding what needs re-doing and what not
15:33:27  <planetmaker> and how the thing is re-done, if needed
15:33:31  <planetmaker> that's their purpose
15:33:35  <Xotic750> that's really the bit I'm missing in my scripts
15:34:11  <planetmaker> like sprite.png: blender-output.png gimp-scripts
15:34:31  <planetmaker> blender-output.png: blender-textures, model-file blender-scripts
15:34:54  <planetmaker> and they followed by steps how to create it from the mentioned input (input after colon)
15:35:09  <planetmaker> It needs nothing more really
15:35:17  <planetmaker> target: deps
15:35:32  <planetmaker>   blender deps > target
15:35:32  <Xotic750> and what about things like if a file hasn't changed or has changed
15:35:48  <planetmaker> or so could be arule which automatically renders target if deps changed
15:36:00  <planetmaker> that's what make looks at
15:36:10  <planetmaker> that's what make does for you. It compares time stamps
15:36:19  <Xotic750> ok
15:36:19  <planetmaker> and will do nothing if the target is newer than all deps
15:37:08  <Xotic750> well, it's something I definately want to do or have done :)
15:38:57  <Xotic750> it was really annoying today, I improved the animate script but didn't notice an old cleanup reoutine
15:39:30  <Xotic750> I started the renders a few times yesterday, and didn't notice that each tiome I started it, it cleaned out the previous render :P
15:39:45  <planetmaker> he
15:40:42  <Xotic750> otherwise we would have the new model sprites today
15:40:58  <Xotic750> oh well, maybe tomorrow or the day after
15:41:20  <Xotic750> I have done early bulk wagons now
15:41:31  <Xotic750> they are the same shape etc as the modern
15:41:47  <Xotic750> but the bulk container is made from wood rather than painted steel
15:43:11  <Xotic750> I'll render a quick view and pop it up so you can see
15:43:12  <planetmaker> so, the 1st and 2nd generation of the existing wagons (maybe we should call it that way to avoid confusion)
15:43:16  <planetmaker> ?
15:43:24  <planetmaker> sounds nice :-)
15:44:34  <Xotic750> I know it not like real life, as I said from my reading they apparently used to load the loose bulk into baks and manually load and unload open freight wagons
15:44:45  <Xotic750> *bags
15:45:23  <Xotic750> so, there are no photos of anything early, other than coal/mineral ones, used by mining companies
15:45:31  <Xotic750> generally on smaller trains
15:46:58  <Xotic750>
15:47:09  <Xotic750> there is a sample of what I've done though
15:58:45  <Xotic750> btw, we have 179 blender models now :)
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16:30:09  <Ammler> someone wanna look into bundles?
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16:42:45  <andythenorth> what's needed?
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17:45:03  <Ammler> @topic add devzone down for maintenance
17:45:15  <Ammler> @services op
17:45:16  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Webster
17:45:21  <Ammler> @topic add devzone down for maintenance
17:45:21  *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on | Downloads log: | Sandbox passwords are the same as the usernames | devzone down for maintenance"
17:45:41  <Ammler> hg should still worth though
17:45:46  <Ammler> work*
17:46:20  <Ammler> bundles is broken too, no clue how to fix
17:50:05  <andythenorth> Ammler: where's the issue?  box?  os?  apps?
17:51:38  <Ammler> me
17:51:53  <Ammler> the lack of help :-P
17:52:42  <andythenorth> do I have ssh on the box?
17:52:46  <Ammler> I made for a long time no update an missed the changes
17:52:56  <Ammler> and now I have no clue, why it doesn't work
17:53:03  <andythenorth> nvm to ssh, I am not safe with servers anyway
17:53:11  <Ammler> I can supply you with ssh
17:53:19  <andythenorth> so the box is up?
17:53:32  <Ammler> yes, just unicorn isn't
17:53:40  <Ammler> hg.o.o still works, doesn't?
17:56:07  <Ammler> well,it was my mistake assuming something is broken on dev as bundles was broken
17:56:12  <Ammler> and so I broke dev too
17:56:30  <Ammler> and I have no real mood to fix it :-)
17:57:59  <Ammler> but since we are the only ones online right now, I think it is fine to postpone the fix for tomorrow?
17:58:05  <andythenorth> fine with me
17:59:07  <Ammler> @topic change -1 dev and bundles down for maintenance (until june 2 13:00 gmt)
17:59:18  <Ammler> @topic set -1 dev and bundles down for maintenance (until june 2 13:00 gmt)
17:59:18  *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on | Downloads log: | Sandbox passwords are the same as the usernames | dev and bundles down for maintenance (until june 2 13:00 gmt)"
17:59:56  <Ammler> I wish you all a good night...
18:01:03  <andythenorth> bye Ammler
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19:14:43  <planetmaker> uh...
19:16:09  <andythenorth> lo planetmaker
19:17:24  <planetmaker> hello andythenorth
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