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06:59:16 <V453000> brake wagon? o_O 07:05:47 <planetmaker> Xotic750: the wagon itself should not change upon refit. Thus different cargos should and IMHO must not change the wagon colour 07:07:43 <planetmaker> the only differciantion for the same wagon with different cargos should be... the cargo itself 07:10:23 *** Zuu has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 07:11:47 <planetmaker> Xotic750: and wrt break van... I do not want a mandatory break van in this set 07:12:24 <planetmaker> Xotic750: i.e. the NARS and UKRS way that slightly longer trains won't work without is something I definitely want to avoid 07:12:48 <planetmaker> Xotic750: as that is IMHO gameplay wise a broken concept 07:13:35 <planetmaker> Xotic750: as it adds nothing except hassle for the sake of "realism" (whatever that is). But we want gameplay fun. 07:14:08 <planetmaker> Xotic750: thus I really don't know a way we can make a use of a break van at all 07:15:34 <planetmaker> Xotic750: the only possible path I see for it is to have a bonus effect like increasing the cargo payment of the train or so when attached. Similar to possible later restaurant wagons. 07:16:28 <V453000> I agree with planetmaker on the brake van aspect, strongly agree 07:17:26 <V453000> and I thought the same, I have no idea how to make it suitably ... for example tropic refurbishment set has it only there, if you want use it, if not you dont have to 07:17:33 <V453000> I guess that could be an option 07:18:11 <V453000> payment is hard to say, as you reduce the capacity of the wagon and only gain money for it 07:25:33 *** NataS is now known as Nat_AFK 07:37:23 *** Zuu has quit IRC 07:53:46 <planetmaker> using a parameter surely is another option. But meh... too many parameters are at a certain point also a PITA ;-) 09:24:32 *** frosch123 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 09:27:54 <Xotic750> I have found them useful in the past when I want to mix different speed trains onto the same track, so I would likely use them in some of my games 09:28:51 <V453000> ^ how does that help? :o 09:28:55 <Xotic750> I never considered it as some kind of enforcement 09:30:25 <V453000> yeah but why do you add a brake van to the trains 09:31:51 <Xotic750> it means that I can have all my trains running at the same speed, even if they are faster 09:32:48 <V453000> oh, speed limit for brake van? 09:32:57 <V453000> :S 09:33:10 <V453000> ah I see you use speed limits for wagons? 09:33:28 <V453000> just make each generation of wagons have the same speed I would suggest 09:33:56 <V453000> so they dont differ within a generation 09:36:41 <planetmaker> Xotic750: it's not useful for that purpose at all. Simply give the trains the order to travel XX km/h and you're done 09:37:54 <planetmaker> using a break van to speed limit trains is a no-go for me 09:38:59 <planetmaker> really shouldn't we not only add vehicles to this set which we know we're going to add and how? 09:39:20 <Xotic750> they also had the uniqueness other than braking. The vehicle also provides a compartment for the guard, a luggage compartment, and sometimes passenger accommodation, as well. 09:39:47 <Xotic750> just thought we may use one 09:40:00 <planetmaker> well: how? 09:40:32 <planetmaker> making them a requirement to have trains travel normally like in ukrs/nars is painful 09:40:39 <planetmaker> and boring 09:41:37 <Xotic750> I#m not sure, you mentioned about creating dining cars in the past, so I thought this may well fit also 09:42:38 <Xotic750> I wasn't thinking about them being a requirement 09:43:16 <planetmaker> as a mix of mail/valuables/passenger wagon? what does it add in that case? 09:43:58 <Xotic750> a user choice 09:44:20 <Xotic750> but sure pasenger/mail 09:44:37 <Xotic750> or passenger/boxed goods 09:45:07 <planetmaker> really. I still don't see how it works wrt gameplay 09:45:21 <planetmaker> as you surely don't want to allow a train consisting only of breakvans 09:45:54 <Xotic750> oh well, it was just an idea 09:46:15 <planetmaker> well. what kind of idea? That is my question 09:46:28 <planetmaker> I really don't mind. But I don't see how the wagon works 09:46:45 <planetmaker> I have no concept for it which I do see 09:47:09 <planetmaker> So convince me with a concept, if you like it :-) 09:47:12 <Xotic750> as a break van for limiting speed, while carrying passengers and some other goods at the same time 09:47:31 <planetmaker> limiting speed is bad. You can do that without any newgrf. Just by train orders 09:47:43 <planetmaker> wagons anyway have already a speed limit. 09:48:07 <planetmaker> so speed limit is not an argument for me, I'm afraid. 09:48:25 <V453000> ogfx+ trains will have speed limits now? 09:48:43 <planetmaker> V453000: wagons do have a speed limit. Of course it does not apply, if you play w/o wagon speed limits 09:48:51 <planetmaker> So there's no pain in giving wagons a speed limit 09:49:03 <planetmaker> I don't like such speed limit, but I don't play with that setting enabled. So... 09:49:09 <planetmaker> ... it's for those who like it 09:49:11 <V453000> yeah sure 09:49:47 <Xotic750> I don't play enough, but I know that I used them in the past, and it seemed quite nice to have one :) 09:50:09 <Xotic750> but it's no big deal, just wanted to create it 09:50:19 <planetmaker> speed limits are either imposed by each wagon (if you play with wagon speed limits). And they can always be set in the train's orders. 09:50:36 <planetmaker> No need for a 3rd concept which especially breaks AIs and needs extensive explanation also to players. Just a PITA 09:50:44 <V453000> well the train order setting is a bit of a pain with upgrading as you have to set the orders again 09:51:05 <planetmaker> V453000: does the speed limit in orders cancel when upgrading / renewing train?! 09:51:10 <V453000> no 09:51:13 <planetmaker> good 09:51:43 <planetmaker> you mean when you upgrade the whole fleet of trains? well... yes 09:51:45 <V453000> but when you upgrade trains you probably want to increase that speed, so your previously unlimited trains dont actually go faster 09:51:50 <planetmaker> but then you don't need to use it 09:52:40 <V453000> you do, but the solution is a bit awkward in general 09:54:34 <V453000> because for example if you have 2 classes, typically in nuts but also in other sets - cargo trains are slower than passenger trains 09:54:46 <planetmaker> yes? 09:54:47 <V453000> but then you upgrade all trains to another generation, so both are faster than previously 09:54:58 <V453000> and pax trains were limited, say, to 150 kmh 09:55:14 <V453000> now if you upgrade cargo trains to 160kmh, pax trains get upgraded too but still go 150kmh 09:55:18 <planetmaker> you have to upgrade the speed limit for pax trains then 09:55:22 <V453000> yeah exactly 09:55:44 <planetmaker> so, what's the solution in your eyes? 09:56:01 <V453000> which makes that limit solution a bit painful ... but anyone can solve that simply by using the same trains for pax and cargo, all cargo trains are able to haul pax wagons I think 09:56:09 <V453000> nothing really, just not using the feature for that 09:57:47 <V453000> it is usable for a network which is at the final state and wont replace anymore, of course 09:58:18 <planetmaker> changing the orders on a few train groups seems not that painful to me 09:58:26 <V453000> few is relative 09:58:37 <planetmaker> compared to non-mixing trains at all 09:59:18 <V453000> sure but any automatization/less slave labour on larger networks is good 10:01:01 <planetmaker> Xotic750: but for new vehicles we really should think about more in detail what we want and need 10:01:30 <V453000> how did the tenders end up? 10:02:17 <planetmaker> Xotic750: for the dining wagons for the modern MU trains that concept exists - at least in my head. The early vehicles as we plan, are a 'clone' of the existing modern ones with smaller size and reduced stats (capacity, speed) and diferent graphics basically. 10:02:34 <planetmaker> But adding new concepts really need more thought and discussion before we do that, IMHO 10:02:52 <planetmaker> discussing that in our bug tracker might be good. Then others could also comment 10:02:53 <Xotic750> It was during looking at the tender that I saw we have an 8bpp sprite created but it is 5/8 that I noticed we also had an 8bpp caboose 10:03:31 <planetmaker> yes, we have that. The missing concept kinda stopped me adding it. An idea I once had was to make it give the engine an additional power boost. But... not sure either 10:03:38 <planetmaker> rather would fit the tender 10:03:59 <planetmaker> V453000: tender is just a visual thing right now with additional space and weight to steam engines. Enabled or disabled via parameter 10:05:07 <V453000> :) 11:23:42 <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 623:d56621f2b372: Update: Improve the animation script so that it perform... (Xotic750) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository/revisions/d56621f2b372 12:39:40 <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 624:857319db41c9: Update: Improve the animation script so that it cleans ... (Xotic750) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository/revisions/857319db41c9 14:55:20 <Ammler> Xotic750: how big of size would the repo be without render images? 14:55:47 <planetmaker> it would reduce the repo by... 25% or so 14:55:56 <Ammler> oh, only 14:56:09 <planetmaker> the 4x sprites are also not small ;-) 14:56:49 <Ammler> yes, I expected around 80% :-) 14:56:57 <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Trains - Revision 625:59664130bda3: Add: Models for a early bulk wagons (Xotic750) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository/revisions/59664130bda3 14:57:01 <planetmaker> let me check... 14:57:23 <planetmaker> I need to update from 344:tip, thus about 200 revs. Will take time :-P 14:58:05 <Ammler> if you "rerender" the same image, will it change? 14:58:32 <planetmaker> it should not. It's a deterministic process 14:58:37 <planetmaker> And all steps are scripted 14:58:59 <Ammler> but you use "should" ;-) 14:59:08 <planetmaker> I haven't tried 15:03:52 <Ammler> planetmaker: the build time of ogfx-trains is around 1h btw. :-) 15:05:37 <planetmaker> yes... 15:10:23 <frosch123> without cleaning the rendered files as i heard :p 15:10:41 <planetmaker> frosch123, without any rendering actually 15:11:01 <Ammler> rendering would just need another 10hours :-P 15:11:10 <frosch123> not 20? 15:11:16 <planetmaker> probably somewhere of that order 15:11:23 <planetmaker> not sure which :-) 15:11:56 <Ammler> openttd should render the images on startup ;-) 15:12:27 <Ammler> or well, we should get 3dttd 15:18:22 *** Zuu has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 15:22:14 <Xotic750> It renders deterministic to the local machine only 15:22:15 <Xotic750> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1449/ 15:22:43 <Xotic750> I want to improve this somehow, using a hash of the file or something, but haven't got that far yet 15:22:59 <planetmaker> why does it differ between machines? 15:23:27 <Xotic750> when a render happens on the local machine, a file called raw_000X.exr is created 15:23:41 <Xotic750> this file is not saved in the repo 15:23:54 <Xotic750> there are 8 of them to every model, 1 for each view 15:24:05 <planetmaker> Ammler, re repo size: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1450/ 15:24:12 <Xotic750> and they are the same size or a little bigger than an actual rendered view 15:24:47 <Xotic750> if that file exists and the actual render exists then it is skipped 15:25:02 <Xotic750> but this does not take into acount if a file changed 15:25:29 <Xotic750> and there are a number of file which would determine if a model should be re-renderd 15:25:39 <Xotic750> if a texture image changes 15:25:45 <Xotic750> if the library changes 15:25:51 <Xotic750> or if the model itself changed 15:26:32 <Xotic750> so, what I have implimented is really simple, and can be much better with work 15:26:32 <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2 - Feature #3999 (New): DM'90 Buffel (Voyager1) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3999 15:27:14 <planetmaker> well. yes. But given the same checkout. Would two machines render the same resulting image? 15:27:37 <Xotic750> if they are using blender 2.63a and gimp 2.6 yes 15:27:48 <planetmaker> and if not? 15:28:03 <Xotic750> I can't say, I haven't tested other versions 15:28:09 <planetmaker> well. Other result. Actually the same may happen with using another NML version 15:28:21 <Xotic750> I know anything in the blender 2.6 line should give the same result 15:28:46 <planetmaker> important really is only: same tools on different machines should give same result 15:28:54 <Xotic750> yep 15:29:40 <Xotic750> my guess is that blender 2.4 + should be ok 15:29:49 <Xotic750> no idea about gimp 15:29:59 <planetmaker> probably, too 15:30:06 <planetmaker> 2.4+ 15:30:40 <Xotic750> but yes, I need to start making md5 hashes of blend files and textures 15:30:54 <planetmaker> why? 15:30:55 <Xotic750> then I can make better decision on what needs rendering or not 15:31:00 <planetmaker> ah 15:31:13 <planetmaker> that could be part / extension of the makefile 15:31:54 <planetmaker> we could very simply extend that by a target like "render" or so 15:32:02 <planetmaker> which then calls the necessary steps 15:32:05 <Xotic750> there are probably a few bits, if not all of the script that could go into the makefile 15:32:07 <planetmaker> and render-dep 15:32:42 <Xotic750> I don't have any knowledge of the power of makefiles 15:32:55 <planetmaker> anything you can script 15:33:19 <planetmaker> their power is in deciding what needs re-doing and what not 15:33:27 <planetmaker> and how the thing is re-done, if needed 15:33:31 <planetmaker> that's their purpose 15:33:35 <Xotic750> that's really the bit I'm missing in my scripts 15:34:11 <planetmaker> like sprite.png: blender-output.png gimp-scripts 15:34:31 <planetmaker> blender-output.png: blender-textures, model-file blender-scripts 15:34:54 <planetmaker> and they followed by steps how to create it from the mentioned input (input after colon) 15:35:09 <planetmaker> It needs nothing more really 15:35:17 <planetmaker> target: deps 15:35:32 <planetmaker> blender deps > target 15:35:32 <Xotic750> and what about things like if a file hasn't changed or has changed 15:35:48 <planetmaker> or so could be arule which automatically renders target if deps changed 15:36:00 <planetmaker> that's what make looks at 15:36:10 <planetmaker> that's what make does for you. It compares time stamps 15:36:19 <Xotic750> ok 15:36:19 <planetmaker> and will do nothing if the target is newer than all deps 15:37:08 <Xotic750> well, it's something I definately want to do or have done :) 15:38:57 <Xotic750> it was really annoying today, I improved the animate script but didn't notice an old cleanup reoutine 15:39:30 <Xotic750> I started the renders a few times yesterday, and didn't notice that each tiome I started it, it cleaned out the previous render :P 15:39:45 <planetmaker> he 15:40:42 <Xotic750> otherwise we would have the new model sprites today 15:40:58 <Xotic750> oh well, maybe tomorrow or the day after 15:41:20 <Xotic750> I have done early bulk wagons now 15:41:31 <Xotic750> they are the same shape etc as the modern 15:41:47 <Xotic750> but the bulk container is made from wood rather than painted steel 15:43:11 <Xotic750> I'll render a quick view and pop it up so you can see 15:43:12 <planetmaker> so, the 1st and 2nd generation of the existing wagons (maybe we should call it that way to avoid confusion) 15:43:16 <planetmaker> ? 15:43:24 <planetmaker> sounds nice :-) 15:44:34 <Xotic750> I know it not like real life, as I said from my reading they apparently used to load the loose bulk into baks and manually load and unload open freight wagons 15:44:45 <Xotic750> *bags 15:45:23 <Xotic750> so, there are no photos of anything early, other than coal/mineral ones, used by mining companies 15:45:31 <Xotic750> generally on smaller trains 15:46:58 <Xotic750> http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5391/27367228.png 15:47:09 <Xotic750> there is a sample of what I've done though 15:58:45 <Xotic750> btw, we have 179 blender models now :) 16:24:49 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 16:30:09 <Ammler> someone wanna look into bundles? 16:34:18 *** Nat_AFK is now known as NataS 16:42:45 <andythenorth> what's needed? 16:50:15 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 16:50:31 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 16:54:10 *** Zuu has quit IRC 17:19:38 *** Brot6 has quit IRC 17:20:28 *** NataS is now known as Nat_AFK 17:21:45 *** Nat_AFK is now known as NataS 17:45:03 <Ammler> @topic add devzone down for maintenance 17:45:15 <Ammler> @services op 17:45:16 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Webster 17:45:21 <Ammler> @topic add devzone down for maintenance 17:45:21 *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on http://dev.openttdcoop.org | Downloads log: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/log.csv | Sandbox passwords are the same as the usernames | devzone down for maintenance" 17:45:41 <Ammler> hg should still worth though 17:45:46 <Ammler> work* 17:46:20 <Ammler> bundles is broken too, no clue how to fix 17:50:05 <andythenorth> Ammler: where's the issue? box? os? apps? 17:51:38 <Ammler> me 17:51:53 <Ammler> the lack of help :-P 17:52:42 <andythenorth> do I have ssh on the box? 17:52:46 <Ammler> I made for a long time no update an missed the changes 17:52:56 <Ammler> and now I have no clue, why it doesn't work 17:53:03 <andythenorth> nvm to ssh, I am not safe with servers anyway 17:53:11 <Ammler> I can supply you with ssh 17:53:19 <andythenorth> so the box is up? 17:53:32 <Ammler> yes, just unicorn isn't 17:53:40 <Ammler> hg.o.o still works, doesn't? 17:56:07 <Ammler> well,it was my mistake assuming something is broken on dev as bundles was broken 17:56:12 <Ammler> and so I broke dev too 17:56:30 <Ammler> and I have no real mood to fix it :-) 17:57:59 <Ammler> but since we are the only ones online right now, I think it is fine to postpone the fix for tomorrow? 17:58:05 <andythenorth> fine with me 17:59:07 <Ammler> @topic change -1 dev and bundles down for maintenance (until june 2 13:00 gmt) 17:59:18 <Ammler> @topic set -1 dev and bundles down for maintenance (until june 2 13:00 gmt) 17:59:18 *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on http://dev.openttdcoop.org | Downloads log: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/log.csv | Sandbox passwords are the same as the usernames | dev and bundles down for maintenance (until june 2 13:00 gmt)" 17:59:56 <Ammler> I wish you all a good night... 18:01:03 <andythenorth> bye Ammler 18:17:22 *** LordAro has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 19:03:43 *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 19:14:43 <planetmaker> uh... 19:16:09 <andythenorth> lo planetmaker 19:17:24 <planetmaker> hello andythenorth 19:23:29 *** Zuu has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 19:39:28 *** Xotic750_ has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 20:25:47 *** LordAro has quit IRC 20:50:55 *** ODM has quit IRC 21:16:02 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:33:50 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:52:51 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 22:34:24 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:48:19 *** Xotic750_ has quit IRC 23:04:54 *** NataS is now known as Nat_AFK 23:26:05 *** Nat_AFK is now known as NataS 23:55:35 *** Zuu has quit IRC