Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 14th July 2012:
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07:43:01  *** dihedral has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
07:43:03  <dihedral> ahhh
07:43:23  <dihedral> planetmaker, the number of channels (and their naming) is getting confusing :_D
07:43:27  <dihedral> just kidding
08:49:45  <Rubidium> oh, are there new channels somewhere?
08:53:58  <planetmaker> nope
08:54:12  <planetmaker> dih just re-discovers very old channels ;-)
08:58:30  <dihedral> :-D
10:29:13  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #3637: include other files (Alberth) @
10:29:13  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #2929 (Closed): More detailed error location (Hirundo) @
10:29:13  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1913:5125d422e045: Feature: Information about included files in erro... (Hirundo) @
10:35:07  <Hirundo> planetmaker: There are (still) no known NML airplane grfs, right?
10:35:11  *** frosch123 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
11:01:52  *** Xotic750 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
11:10:00  <Xotic750> planetmaker around?
11:13:44  <Brot6> Dutch Trains 2 - Feature #3952: Additional steam engines (Voyager1) @
11:16:50  <planetmaker> Hi Hirundo, hi Xotic750
11:16:58  <planetmaker> Hirundo: there's none that I know, indeed
11:17:00  <Xotic750> hi
11:17:14  <Xotic750> good to catch you
11:18:23  <Xotic750> I've been wanting to pick your brain about some of the trains code
11:19:02  <planetmaker> ok
11:19:22  <Hirundo> hello sir pm
11:19:32  <Xotic750> let's start with remove_wagons.pnml
11:20:23  <Xotic750> is there a reason for not disabling all of the wagons, on all you leave passenger and mail?
11:20:53  <planetmaker> yes
11:21:13  <planetmaker> OpenTTD provides itself nice translations for the default vehicles, namely and especially the wagons
11:21:29  <planetmaker> Disabling that wagon means we have to provide all those and also care about updating them
11:22:18  <Xotic750> ok, I wondered if that was a possible reason, but you also redefine livestock and valuables but you disabled those
11:22:51  <planetmaker> a bit inconsistent, I guess
11:23:07  <Xotic750> so does that mean that those should have been left like passenger and mail
11:23:13  <planetmaker> Most likely a result of "dunno exactly how to (re-)define those
11:23:13  <Xotic750> not disabled
11:23:32  <planetmaker> In the current way they're defined probably a good idea. Yes
11:23:52  <Xotic750> ok
11:24:35  <Xotic750> next is why do you disable any wagons at all with disable_item, rather than setting the climate availability?
11:25:58  <planetmaker> We do not use those vehicles anywhere nor do we want to define them. Do we?
11:26:41  <Hirundo> Xotic750: disable_item is (for vehicles) nothing but a shorthand for setting climate availability
11:26:48  <Xotic750> It was just from my reading, it says everywhere that it is better to set the climate rather than disable for compatability with save games
11:26:58  <Xotic750> aha, ok
11:27:56  <Xotic750> that info helps :)
11:30:03  <Xotic750> and finially, I was wondering about how wagon availability works with regard to climate, the wiki says nothing which wagon is available for which climate
11:30:05  <Xotic750>
11:30:15  <Xotic750> so I wondered if they are available for all climates
11:30:29  <Xotic750> and only show if the cargo type is in the game?
11:31:58  <planetmaker> climate availability is a property set by vehicle type. A vehicle is not available, if it supports only non-available cargos
11:32:38  <planetmaker> thus availability = climate support AND support for at least one available cargo
11:33:03  <Xotic750> ok, so you could re-enable a wagon by setting it's climate availability back to all
11:33:13  <planetmaker> available cargo as in the cargo is defined. Need actually not necessarily produced by any house or industry
11:34:20  <planetmaker> you can enable a vehicle by setting its climate availability to all or the current climate
11:34:28  <planetmaker> ogfx+trains actually uses the latter
11:34:56  <Xotic750> ok,I see
11:35:56  <planetmaker> as it allowed easier support for the climate parameter
11:36:33  <planetmaker> like if climate_param & current_climate then climate_availability = current_climate (as pseudo code)
11:36:39  <Xotic750> I also assume that there is no way of reading vehicle strings or climate parameter, or any parameter back from a vehicle if I know it's ID
11:37:07  <planetmaker> not that I know
11:38:25  <Xotic750> that's a pity
11:38:40  <planetmaker> care to explain your thoughts?
11:39:17  <planetmaker> I'm feeling, honestly, like... "this is my big idea and now either it's ok or much time wasted" is coming towards me
11:39:24  <Xotic750> just there have been times that I would like to know what a parameter is set to, but couldn't figure a way to read it back
11:39:32  <planetmaker> which saddens me. As it can be averted by talking in advance
11:39:51  <planetmaker> and sharing ideas and concepts beore they're implemented fully
11:40:02  <Xotic750> no big idea other than wanting to know if it's possible
11:40:27  <planetmaker> Xotic750: you can read newgrf parameters. Of your own newgrf as well as of others
11:40:43  <planetmaker> but you can't read what the newgrf does with that parameter internally
11:40:55  <planetmaker> that you need to know
11:41:39  <Xotic750> I was thinking more along the lines of accessing the vehicle name parameter, or it's climate_availability parameter and so forth
11:41:57  <planetmaker> when you say parameter you mean property?
11:42:06  <Xotic750> sorry, yes, property
11:44:25  <Xotic750> the only big idea that I have working with recently is for the use of m4, as you know
11:44:43  <planetmaker> yes-ish
11:44:49  <planetmaker> but I know no more.
11:45:09  <planetmaker> And... I'm not sure whether it would completely remove me from active developer of this set
11:45:43  <planetmaker> it might be a very good idea. I toyed with it also 18 months ago or so.
11:46:04  <planetmaker> But let it go in order to make things easier to understand for people not too involved in the code
11:46:45  <Rubidium> M5i is so much better ;)
11:46:52  <planetmaker> And when I say here "not sure" I really mean it that way and not in the sense of "don't want it"
11:47:36  <planetmaker> like, it will need convincing me. But I haven't yet seen any code, so I really don't know
11:48:00  <planetmaker> (besides the issue of adding another dependency)
11:48:31  <Rubidium> didn't mb post some m4 code?
11:48:40  <planetmaker> m4nfo. Not m4nml ;-)
11:48:46  <planetmaker> yes, he did
11:48:57  <Xotic750> sure, I have been learning and converting and have a working build and it is 80% documented
11:49:19  <Xotic750> but wanted to do some more docs before presenting it to you
11:49:40  <planetmaker> so like 100% finished and then I can say "fine" or "you wasted 2 months"?
11:49:56  <planetmaker> That puts me in a very uncomfortable position from my pov
11:50:07  <Xotic750> well, I have some example to argue with :)
11:50:27  <planetmaker> doesn't change my positon at all.
11:50:35  <Xotic750> and it's not a waste, I have leant m4
11:50:47  <Xotic750> and about autoconf and other things
11:50:49  <planetmaker> to either waste your time or accept a complete re-write of the whole NewGRF
11:51:24  <planetmaker> Also with "here I have everything" is a very very very big chunk to digest
11:51:31  <planetmaker> More than I usually feel comfortable with to review
11:51:48  <planetmaker> And, it allows all kinds of bugs to creep in.
11:51:56  <Xotic750> there is no other way that I can think of to do it piece meal
11:51:57  <planetmaker> Or behaviour changes. Whether wanted or not
11:52:06  <Xotic750> to convert from one preprocessor to another
11:52:26  <planetmaker> There is. Using both. Concurrently. And then converting piecewise.
11:52:37  <planetmaker> Like we added all the templates to FIRS
11:52:56  <planetmaker> which we did commit by commit over 3 months. When we actually re-wrote it from nfo to nml
11:55:02  <planetmaker> You know. My "issue" is that you basically ask me to hand over the project to you completely by this complete re-write. Or so it feels. Like forcing that issue
11:55:14  <planetmaker> And this pressure feels bad
11:55:48  <planetmaker> You might be the right person. You might have the right ideas.
11:55:56  <planetmaker> But it's... going pretty fast-paced for that
11:56:24  <planetmaker> faster than I can accustom to that idea as "yes, it feels good"
11:58:56  <Xotic750> It wasn't my intention to make you feel bad or ask you to hand the project over to me
11:59:07  <planetmaker> I know
11:59:39  <planetmaker> I also don't want to hold anything here against you. But it's hard to jump over my own shadow :-)
12:00:29  <planetmaker> I guess, I'm not yet 100% convinced that you share the same vision for the OpenGFX+ projects as I do ;-) Or rather accept the same somewhat arbitrary limitations
12:00:37  <planetmaker> That's what I'm actually mostly concerned about
12:02:20  <planetmaker> I want OpenGFX+ to be a) an extension to both timeline and cargos and b) be quite liberal in what is allowed to the player. Which includes like no restrictions on what wagon can go with what engine
12:02:54  <Xotic750> I haven't changed the view of OpenGFX+, it produces the same code, but yes, I do wish to change the tools. If I have a choice between a Flathead or Phillips screwdriver when screwing a Phillips head screw then I will choose the Phillips if I have the choice
12:03:05  <planetmaker> I don't want it to be realistic but to give the player all gameplay options at hand really. Even when totally stupid from a realism perspective
12:03:59  <planetmaker> There's loads of realistic sets, OpenGFX is kinda the opposite :-)
12:04:49  <Xotic750> I believe that I understand this notion, and do not want to change that goal
12:04:54  <planetmaker> Like default OpenTTD you can also haul coal with an AsiaStar. That I want to preserve
12:06:04  <planetmaker> or in short: all of OpenGFX+ (along with OpenGFX) should look like what a base set should look like when there were no historical restrictions to default game content :-)
12:06:23  <Xotic750> Sure, this I do not want to change
12:06:54  <planetmaker> your realism with the engines (e.g. the naming) had me a bit on the edge in this respect ;-)
12:07:26  <Xotic750> it was because I was reading TTD info rather than OpenTTD :)
12:07:36  <planetmaker> :-)
12:07:50  <planetmaker> well. Ok.
12:08:14  <planetmaker> May I suggest that you move your development to a named or unnamed branch in the main repo?
12:08:40  <planetmaker> hm, probably unnamed is better
12:08:48  <planetmaker> then the nightly compiler will just compile it
12:08:51  <planetmaker> or try
12:09:33  <planetmaker> hm.... what do you think, Ammler, can we compile branches specifically with the CF?
12:10:50  <planetmaker> Xotic750: wrt compilation on the CF: have a look at the custom specs file which e.g. OpenGFX itself uses
12:12:10  <Xotic750> ok, I will have a look
12:12:10  <planetmaker>
12:12:30  <planetmaker> should list the new dependencies
12:12:38  <Xotic750> Is there any plan to get the project compiling nightlies again
12:12:41  <planetmaker> then they can be used in the Makefile like you posted
12:12:50  <planetmaker> there's no plan. But the intention ;-)
12:14:02  <planetmaker> Xotic750: I guess it's a good idea to only add blender files and the sprites themselves to the repo. No intermediate stuff. The intermediate stuff can go in the (existing) development repo. Right?
12:14:45  <Xotic750> the blender files and raws are in their own project
12:14:55  <Xotic750> or sub-project
12:15:11  <Xotic750> you only have the actual sprites in the main repo now
12:15:18  <Xotic750> except the history :)
12:15:23  <planetmaker> ok. Also not the blender files?
12:15:53  <planetmaker> btw, care to talk to Zephyris?
12:15:59  <planetmaker> Might be interesting chat for you :-)
12:16:27  <planetmaker> esp. wrt blender templates or so. Though he might just refuse to talk ;-)
12:18:05  <planetmaker> can you read ?
12:27:35  <Xotic750> I will take a look as soon as I finish lunch, as not to piss the GF off :)
12:28:38  <planetmaker> haha :-) Better not
12:30:24  <planetmaker> btw, I think I changed my mind: there's no harm in having experimental branches in a repo. It shows ideas... which might also be interesting later on for reference
12:30:39  <planetmaker> even if not used in released newgrfs
12:31:19  <planetmaker> we should make use of dvcs... merge is powerful. And not harmful ;-)
12:40:11  <planetmaker> Ammler: <-- have you seen that?
12:40:12  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - Website for newgrf compiling? (at
12:40:31  <planetmaker> Do you think it's feasible to install a web upload interface to a hg repo?
12:40:58  <planetmaker> So that people can register a project. Upload nml and png files. And then just get a nightly compiled and built?
12:41:11  <planetmaker> (or rather: does such solution exist at all)
12:41:33  <planetmaker> might be nice for simple projects. And people unaccustomed to all the dev tools. It would simplify the process significantly
12:41:47  <planetmaker> They just type in a text editor. Upload nml + png files. Voila
12:42:47  <Xotic750> Had a read and like the concept, ignore the rubbish surrounding things and just do it fresh :)
12:43:53  <Xotic750> will pull the repo later and have a look at the blends
12:44:59  <planetmaker> yes. So do I
12:46:31  <Xotic750> if I create a branch for the m4 work, does it duplicate the whole repo (thinking about the size effect)?
12:46:54  <planetmaker> no. hg only stores changes
12:47:03  <Xotic750> ok
12:50:37  <Xotic750> Hirundo: love the last change (1913) to nmlc, been waiting for that one :)
12:50:50  <Brot6> FISH - Feature #4059 (New): Gen 1 / 3 Coasters don't show hold / open hatches when loading (andythenorth) @
12:54:22  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 751:2370c06ebee1: Codechange: add some things to .hgignore (andythenorth) @
12:54:22  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 752:0cd372836921: Codechange: graphics for Gen 3 Coaster (DanMacK) (andythenorth) @
13:02:43  <Xotic750> planetmaker: I will try and create a branch later, have to go out now.
13:03:01  <planetmaker> sure, no rush.
13:03:08  <planetmaker> But it was good that we talked. Thanks :-)
13:03:16  <planetmaker> (yes, I feel much better now)
13:04:02  <Xotic750> yes, it's difficult to get online just now, as I would like to discuss things more
13:04:28  <planetmaker> open issues in the bug tracker :-)
13:04:45  <planetmaker> that allows also off-line discussions :-)
13:04:56  <Xotic750> will do
13:05:12  <Xotic750> Have a nice one all
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13:25:54  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 753:655527a4be30: Change: add Shannon (gen 3) Coaster to nml conversion (graphics by... (andythenorth) @
14:12:45  <Brot6> Metro Track Set - Revision 90:e19d7b6b56a0: Feature: custom metro (light) signals (foobar) @
14:13:37  <planetmaker> <-- Ammler, would that make sense as solution for the repo-unaware newgrf wanna-be's?
14:13:38  <Webster> Title: amartel/redmine_scm_extensions ยท GitHub (at
14:14:42  <planetmaker> I know, it's svn, but better than nothing ;-)
14:23:59  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 754:4a94da659ee0: Codechange: rename a template preparatory to providing multiple gr... (andythenorth) @
14:38:15  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 755:5ff68a0b5c1d: Codechange: graphics need to use the dos palette (mass-converted) (andythenorth) @
14:40:47  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 756:2279c3e7cbe7: Cleanup: remove some unwanted pcx files (andythenorth) @
14:40:47  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 757:709474198996: Codechange: more support for graphics that vary by load state (andythenorth) @
14:50:28  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 758:9f772939feca: Change: ships now show correct graphics for moving / not moving (andythenorth) @
14:54:57  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 759:438025a5cba9: Fix: the previous conversion to dos palette had failed (andythenorth) @
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15:17:22  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 760:b1d835c2ac9c: Codechange: extend CMS / config file to include property for graph... (andythenorth) @
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15:37:02  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Code Review #3700 (Closed): review aircraft properties is_helicopter and is_l... (Hirundo) @
15:37:02  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 1914:e095cb395f96: Change: Merge aircraft properties 'is_helicopter'... (Hirundo) @
15:55:03  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #3022: support generic callbacks (Hirundo) @
15:57:09  <planetmaker> nice, Hirundo
16:08:19  <Hirundo> planetmaker: any opinion on #3022?
16:08:19  <Brot6> Hirundo: planetmaker: #3022 is "Feature Request #3022: support generic callbacks - NewGRF Meta Language - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
16:11:48  * frosch123 added his 2cc
16:12:09  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #3022: support generic callbacks (frosch) @
16:15:41  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 761:5fbcb0150af6: Fix: another dos palette conversion (andythenorth) @
16:15:42  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 762:204fb6ee7971: Cleanup: don't need hg to track english.lng, it's compiled (andythenorth) @
16:15:42  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 763:6f740e3b6b9f: Change: graphics templates to support hydrofoils varying graphics ... (andythenorth) @
16:15:43  <Brot6> FISH - Bug #4060 (New): Hydrofoils need offsets for speed, or sprites moving around (andythenorth) @
16:48:17  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 764:2da09acad5fe: Change: template for graphics with 2 visible cargo states (empty, ... (andythenorth) @
16:48:17  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 765:b4e00e8170f7: Fix: another dos palette conversion (andythenorth) @
17:13:21  <Brot6> Metro Track Set - Revision 91:572d99a25205: Feature: parameter to disable custom signals (foobar) @
17:13:21  <Brot6> Metro Track Set - Revision 92:c3fed59b1334: Cleanup: NFO code and graphics files (foobar) @
17:17:12  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #3022: support generic callbacks (Hirundo) @
17:18:03  <Brot6> nml: update from r1912 to r1914 done -
17:19:12  <Brot6> metrotrackset: update from r89 to r92 done -
17:30:18  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 766:82f87a8b88a6: Codechange: rationalise loading-moving state a bit for one templat... (andythenorth) @
17:30:18  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 767:a417641bfb07: Change: add graphics template for ships with tanker refit (andythenorth) @
17:32:26  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 768:dd15986cc8eb: Codechange: comment (andythenorth) @
17:54:46  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 769:d5296019320d: Change: set the default sound effect based on the default cargo (p... (andythenorth) @
18:13:58  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 770:c168c43b45cd: Codechange: extend CMS and build script to add fixed cost and fuel... (andythenorth) @
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18:33:03  <Brot6> Debug Vehicles - Revision 7:4e0b3161db73: Add readme. (frosch) @
18:33:03  <Brot6> Debug Vehicles - Revision 8:626fa3d9c6e7: Add: German translation. (frosch) @
18:33:03  <Brot6> Debug Vehicles - Revision 9:fb43d7bf5181: Added tag 1.1 for changeset 626fa3d9c6e7 (frosch) @
18:35:07  <frosch123> yawn... and again two bananas downloads already
18:35:38  <frosch123> i know that i am one of them, but what other fool monitors bananas constantly to download updates of useless grfs
18:39:04  <Brot6> debugveh: update from 1.0 to 1.1 done -
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19:32:24  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 771:57d830b30b66: Codechange: add constants for fixed and fuel run costs (andythenorth) @
19:32:24  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 772:5224620cce4b: Codechange: remove redundant constant (andythenorth) @
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20:33:40  <planetmaker> frosch123: what are those debug vehicles? :-)
20:34:08  <planetmaker> actually... nvm. It has a good readme :-)
20:34:31  <frosch123> he, you did not know the grf yet?
20:35:22  <frosch123> there is also a nice screenshot on the devzone project page
20:35:24  <planetmaker> frosch123: typo in last line: ...come to life... (with an "f")
20:35:45  <frosch123> there is at least one another type somewhere more up :)
20:35:49  <planetmaker> and I don't really know it. I faintly remember having heard/read something about it... but no memory really
20:36:31  <planetmaker> what a nice screenshot! :-)
20:40:56  <frosch123> <- any more?
20:41:22  <frosch123> planetmaker: btw. if you haven't read in the backlogs, bananas now supports translated readmes and changelogs
20:41:38  <frosch123> licenses are not allowed in translated form
20:42:48  <planetmaker> Oh, indeed I did not yet notice. Excellent! And thanks for telling me :-)
20:43:30  <planetmaker> I didn't stumble over any other obvious typo in the readme
20:43:33  <frosch123> debugveh is the first one to use them :p
20:43:37  <planetmaker> :-)
20:43:49  <planetmaker> I'll tell Hyronymus. He wanted to use it a few days ago
20:44:25  <Terkhen> oooh
20:44:29  <Terkhen> that's interesting :D
20:45:38  <planetmaker> yep. Quite :-)
20:47:36  <frosch123> yeah, i am impressed myself :) apparently there were no syntax errors in my first python code
20:47:44  <frosch123> at least none which stopped it from working :)
20:48:08  <frosch123> and hyro's case was my motivation
20:48:25  <frosch123> i would never be so stupid to code a feature only to make myself write a readme for debugveh :p
20:48:38  <frosch123> and then even translate it :s
20:50:31  <Terkhen> frosch123: the 24 downloaders of debug vehicles might have a different opinion
20:50:44  <Brot6> Debug Vehicles - Revision 10:75dd344821df: Fix: some typos. (frosch) @
20:54:00  <planetmaker> Hirundo: wrt #3022... I think frosch summarized it better than I could have :-)
20:54:01  <Brot6> planetmaker: Hirundo: #3022 is "Feature Request #3022: support generic callbacks - NewGRF Meta Language - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
20:57:39  <frosch123> wow... how stupid is the generic bridge sound callback...
20:58:27  <frosch123> it should have been a bridge callback instead of putting the bridgetype into var18
21:07:03  <planetmaker> he, indeed
21:07:22  <planetmaker> let's deprecate that and introduce the better version
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