Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 25th September 2012:
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00:14:29  *** Frankr has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
04:18:12  *** KenjiE20 has quit IRC
07:18:21  <Ammler> @topic add Server down for maintenance: 00:00 to 12:00 UTC
07:18:27  <Ammler> @services op
07:18:27  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Webster
07:18:29  <Ammler> @topic add Server down for maintenance: 00:00 to 12:00 UTC
07:18:29  *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on | Downloads log: | Sandbox passwords are the same as the usernames | anonymous Fallback hg host: (should work like but also for big files) | Server down for maintenance: 00:00 to 12:00 UTC"
07:20:07  <Terkhen> Ammler: does that include the bouncer?
07:25:41  <Ammler> yep
07:25:44  <Ammler> everything
07:26:28  <planetmaker> But... it's 3am to 3pm tomorrow. not 0 to 12
07:26:33  <planetmaker> CEST
07:26:39  <planetmaker> which is 1am to 1pm UTC
07:26:57  <Ammler> well, aroundish :-P
07:27:03  <planetmaker> @op
07:27:03  *** Webster sets mode: +o planetmaker
07:27:07  *** planetmaker changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on | Downloads log: | Sandbox passwords are the same as the usernames | anonymous Fallback hg host: (should work like but also for big files) | Server down for maintenance: 01:00 to 13:00 UTC"
07:27:12  <planetmaker> @deop
07:27:12  *** Webster sets mode: -o planetmaker
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09:01:49  <Terkhen> Ammler: okay, thanks :)
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12:49:42  <Ammler> <-- all changes since 6.0.0?
12:58:21  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #4281 (New): Hungarian translation update XBrumiX @
14:48:49  <Rubidium> Ammler: no, use the changelog from the tarball
14:49:01  <Rubidium> it's just the standard "nightly" changelog
14:50:58  <Ammler>
14:51:24  <Rubidium> yeah, that's better
14:51:52  <Ammler> ah well, I already packed it with "(bugfix release)" only :-)
14:52:03  <Rubidium> that's roughly right
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15:58:56  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 985:9b6ec0647164: Change: publish a rpm list so that we have a list of packages, ... XplanetmakerX @
15:58:56  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 986:d146915a05c8: Fix: Do not make recursive symlinks XplanetmakerX @
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16:01:11  <Ammler> hehe, just wanted to say, there aren't many changes in ogfx this year :-)
16:02:10  <planetmaker> there aren't since April. But everything including 0.4.2 onward is this year :-)
16:02:11  <Ammler> looks like openttd 1.3 will still have ogfx 0.4
16:02:26  <planetmaker> maybe
16:02:51  <Ammler> but maybe there is a 2nd baseset then
16:02:57  <planetmaker> :-) yo
16:03:04  <planetmaker> would be nice
16:03:47  <planetmaker> this week's c't has an introductory course for blender... I should take a look at that :D
16:04:33  * andythenorth forsees the demise of pixel art ;)
16:05:04  <planetmaker> Not sure... the art might just move to creating the proper textures ;-)
16:05:26  <planetmaker> tbh, I don't see openttd without pixel art :-)
16:05:34  <andythenorth> rly?
16:05:49  <andythenorth> zbase and such kind of kill the pixel art imho
16:06:02  <planetmaker> do you think?
16:06:06  <andythenorth> yes
16:06:10  <planetmaker> maybe... eventually
16:06:23  <andythenorth> there is a much larger number of people who can create rendered art
16:07:14  <andythenorth> [shrug]
16:07:17  <planetmaker> I've no idea whether that's the case. Going by that, then yes
16:07:22  <andythenorth> stuff has to evolve
16:07:40  <andythenorth> can't stay still forever
16:07:55  <planetmaker> the principle advantage of models would be that it could allow easier for rotation and stuff.
16:08:11  <planetmaker> further or smoother zoom or so as well
16:08:25  <planetmaker> in principle one could use a 3D engine to draw stuff then
16:08:48  <planetmaker> without requiring sprites
16:11:18  <planetmaker> bbl 2 hours
16:14:38  <Ammler> currently there is basically just one "nice" 32bpp arthist, that is the wild west guy
16:15:14  <Ammler> or extra zoom artist, 32bpp doesn't mean non-pixel
16:16:04  <Ammler> zbase is way too clean for my taste
17:15:27  <V453000> +1 Ammler
17:16:18  <V453000> on the other hand I would not be as worried as andythenorth :)
17:18:58  <Brot6> worldairlinersset: update from r1110 to r1119 done -
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17:22:17  <andythenorth> I'm not worried
17:22:19  <andythenorth> I don't care :)
17:22:31  <andythenorth> drawing pixel art is hard and time consuming
17:22:40  <andythenorth> and lots of it isn't very good
17:22:52  <andythenorth> if rendered graphics make players happy
17:22:54  <andythenorth> [shrug]
17:31:27  <planetmaker> I'm not concerned either way. Both, rendering and pixel pushing can give nice results. Or not so nice results. Important is that nice results are achieved. And that players are happy. The means to reach happiness really don't matter so much ;-)
17:31:47  <planetmaker> and tbh, I can be made happy by either way of creating graphics
17:34:14  <andythenorth> life is too short to worry about it either way :)
17:34:31  <andythenorth> also look how successful paks have made simutrans
17:34:56  <planetmaker> dunno. But they're rendered?
17:35:02  <andythenorth> some
17:35:10  <planetmaker> I see
17:35:17  <andythenorth>
17:35:18  <Webster> Title: Simutrans - A freeware transportation simulation game (at
17:36:05  <planetmaker> spoiled by openttd UI I didn't quite find my way around how simutrans works. Thus I only had a relatively brief look - which already is quite some time ago
17:38:32  <planetmaker> and wrt zBase: yes, they are very clean and the landscape is a bit too smooth. But, it is available, it's open source and we can all go and start from there and make it better
17:39:28  <planetmaker> even Zephyris himself agrees with that statement wrt his own set, I think; considering it rather a beta-type set (but done) than finished polishing but not done by a long shot
17:39:57  <planetmaker> (which also is the big difference to the showcase desert set
17:40:00  <planetmaker> )
17:40:55  <planetmaker> given what was shown it imho is about time to actually release the tiles there
17:50:26  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 987:b2136eee681a: Update: Changelog for 0.4.5 XplanetmakerX @
18:05:09  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Support #4236: Support for 0.2 series XyexoX @
18:27:57  <Ammler> planetmaker: the rpm issue is just an issue on our localonly rpm
18:28:14  <Ammler> the distro rpm is in docs
18:28:38  <Ammler> doesn't belong to the changelog, imo
18:29:15  <planetmaker> hm... worth to commit that changelog fix?
18:29:25  <planetmaker> you should then prefix that with [CF] :D
18:29:53  <Ammler> wasn't it prefixed with Change?
18:30:48  <Ammler> so this happiness thing is for ottd 1.3?
18:31:02  <planetmaker> yes
18:31:05  <planetmaker> and trunk
18:32:13  <Ammler> well, the issue is if you add rpm change to changelog, you might cause maintainer to check their spec for it :-)
18:32:36  <Ammler> but that spec nobody will use
18:33:37  <Ammler> <-- you rather update that spec :-)
18:34:57  <Ammler> oh, it's not in 0.4 branch anyway
18:35:10  <planetmaker> yes. I backported it...
18:35:15  <planetmaker> Zusammenfassung: Change: publish a rpms list so we have a list of packages, if build env is not setup fresh
18:35:19  <Ammler> ah, it is
18:35:41  <Ammler> that is also just internal
18:36:27  <Ammler> maybe that is another reason to split devzone build scripts from the repo :-)
18:36:54  <planetmaker> hehe
18:37:11  <planetmaker> ok, so all rpm changes are devzone-specific and shouldn't show?
18:37:18  <Ammler> yes
18:37:34  <Ammler> somtimes, I copy the suse spec to ./docs/openttd-opengfx.spec
18:37:49  <Ammler> which might be useful for distro maintainer
18:38:00  <Ammler> but as you also don't package .devzone to the source bundle
18:38:18  <planetmaker> true
18:38:19  <Ammler> every commit to .devzone is useless to be published...
18:38:39  <Ammler> and in such case could confuse
18:38:48  <planetmaker> agreed. Removed it from changelog
18:39:01  <planetmaker> will tag then the updated changelog :D
18:39:22  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 988:aa0bb76c1537: Fix: Changelog shouldn't show devzone-specific changes XplanetmakerX @
18:39:22  <Ammler> oh, that is all?
18:39:37  <Ammler> so basically one change?
18:40:00  <Ammler> hmm, but as this is not required for ottd 1.2, it might be good to use new main version?
18:40:11  <planetmaker> basically one change. And it should have been tagged long ago, so that trunk users can update ingame
18:40:22  <Ammler> or at least write in the changelog that the update is not required for openttd 1.2
18:40:27  <planetmaker> it's not using new main version it's 0.4.5
18:41:05  <Ammler> that what I mean, how should a maintainer know, he doesn't need to update distro with 1.2?
18:41:28  <planetmaker> I'll mention it
18:41:37  <planetmaker> good point, too
18:42:10  <Ammler> like, openSUSE 12.2 standard repo has ottd 1.2 and will never get 1.3
18:42:28  <planetmaker> Let's see what happens :-)
18:43:00  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 989:737a0fd14102: Added tag 0.4.5 for changeset aa0bb76c1537 XplanetmakerX @
18:43:05  <Ammler> but just to be sure, it doesn't hurt either, it is backwards compatible right?
18:43:12  <planetmaker> of course
18:43:19  <Ammler> :-P
18:43:45  <Ammler> I wonder, how long the building on our new server will take
18:44:06  <planetmaker> you'll soon know :-)
18:44:28  <Yexo> opengfx uses stable nml, right? that means no sprite cache yet
18:44:42  <planetmaker> yes, that's right
18:44:46  <Ammler> Yexo: opengfx 0.4 does yes
18:44:51  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 990:08b7c501af9d: Update: Changelog from 0.4.5 XplanetmakerX @
18:44:58  <planetmaker> ^that's trunk
18:46:12  <Ammler> Yexo: sprite cache is useless on first build anyway, isn't?
18:46:18  <Yexo> yes
18:46:42  <Ammler> on devzone, every build is always first build
18:47:24  <Ammler> I only disabled cleaning up the whole chroot envirionment
18:51:19  <Ammler> planetmaker: theoretically, default branch shouldn't have the 0.4 entries
18:51:47  <planetmaker> Ammler, it should have the changelog, yes.
18:52:33  <Ammler> yes, but not the 0.4.x changes (you could collect those as default changes or how do you call the default branch...
18:52:52  <Ammler> it might have changes you didn't collect
18:53:01  <Ammler> s/collect/backport/
18:53:01  <Brot6> Ammler meant: "it might have changes you didn't backport"
18:54:13  <planetmaker> Ammler, yes, the default branch could have changes not in any 0.4.x release. But adding them to the changelog is due when a release is made from default branch
18:54:33  <planetmaker> which means to review changes since 0.4 was branched
18:54:38  <Ammler> just meant it is wrong to list those 0.4.x changes
18:54:49  <Ammler> as*
18:55:03  <planetmaker> All the changes in the changelog are 0.4 changes...
18:55:15  <Ammler> not those in the default branch :-)
18:55:28  <planetmaker> the default-only changes are not in the changelog...
18:55:35  <Ammler> doesn't matter
18:55:35  <planetmaker> but they're not yet released
18:55:46  <Ammler> well, just saying...
18:56:19  <Ammler> you did not merge the 0.4 branch into default
18:58:42  <planetmaker> no need... I backported all changes from default to 0.4...
18:58:43  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #4282 (New): DevZone compile failed XcompilerX @
18:58:48  <planetmaker> great
18:59:36  <Ammler> when was the nml release?
18:59:49  <planetmaker> lol. Yexo: I found two things to fix in the 0.2 branch of NML:
19:00:35  <Yexo> that's one, where is the second thing to fix?
19:00:49  <planetmaker> the error message itself has a spelling error
19:01:03  <Yexo> ah :)
19:03:26  <planetmaker> But I guess I can only release OpenGFX 0.4.5 when NML is updated :-)
19:03:32  <Yexo> the num sprites is already backported
19:03:42  <planetmaker> hm...
19:03:49  <Ammler> planetmaker: the unpatient guys can use the nightly :-P
19:04:25  <Ammler> does someone still use nightlies?
19:04:51  <planetmaker> what do you mean, Ammler ?
19:05:18  <Ammler> just wondering, you need that feature for openttd nightly only
19:05:30  <Ammler> so why not use opengfx ngihtly in that case?
19:06:03  <Ammler> well, just meant, you don't need to hurry :-P
19:07:54  <Ammler> planetmaker: also opengfx doesn't really need to stay with nml 0.2
19:08:08  <planetmaker> 0.4 does
19:08:14  <Ammler> why?
19:08:32  <planetmaker> as we announced 0.4.x to be backward compatible to 0.7
19:08:34  <Ammler> openttd 1.2 supports grfv8, doesn't?
19:08:43  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 2037:c9c4141aab6a: Fix: typo in error message XyexoX @
19:08:43  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 2036:63ecbd701c9c: Fix: typo in error message XyexoX @
19:08:54  <Ammler> ah ok, so release 0.5 as I said :-P
19:09:45  <Ammler> the change you added is for ottd 1.3 only, anyway
19:10:21  <planetmaker> yes, true. But just for this change it's not worth to start the 0.5 series
19:10:51  <Ammler> well, what kind of change is worth 0.5?
19:11:31  <Ammler> 0.5 has a lot more changes then, all 0.4.x changes :-)
19:11:55  <Ammler> as said, you wrote the changelog of default wrongly :-P
19:12:06  <planetmaker> well. Doesn't matter. Releases made next year or so will be 0.5 - and only work with OpenTTD 1.2 onward. But not yet
19:12:27  <planetmaker> I never wrote a changelog for default
19:12:36  <planetmaker> nor did I intent to write one
19:12:45  <Ammler> never mind
19:13:13  <Ammler> check, if openttd trunk has changelog entry 1.2.2
19:13:29  <Yexo> it has, or will get it before 1.3
19:14:00  <planetmaker> Ammler, it usually gets them. Not as quickly as here necessarily, but it does
19:14:40  <planetmaker>
19:14:44  <planetmaker> for instance ^
19:14:51  <planetmaker> so 1.2.2 is in trunk
19:15:34  <planetmaker> (and that's why I aquired this habit, too :-) )
19:15:51  <Ammler> hmm, sadly
19:18:15  <Ammler> well, luckily you branch before .0 release, as the changelog couldn't tell when
19:19:13  <Ammler> but then I wonder, why you backport, instead merge as you use those changelog enties anyway
19:19:49  <planetmaker> I suggest you clone the repos. And then do a merge. And compare that with a graft of the changelog commit.
19:19:52  <planetmaker> Decide then
19:19:56  <Yexo> a merge would make two branches equal
19:20:09  <Yexo> backporting takes specific commits from one branch and copies them to the other
19:23:08  <Ammler> Yexo: what is it called what I mean, if you merge the stable commits to devel branch?
19:24:21  <Yexo> all commits or specific commits?
19:24:52  <Ammler> all committs from stable ported into devel
19:25:15  <Yexo> merge
19:25:22  <Yexo> but 0.4 isn't a dev branch, it's a release branch
19:25:26  <Ammler> but how does devel keep their changes?
19:26:32  <Yexo> I don't understand that question
19:26:36  <Yexo> why would it not keep the changes?
19:26:41  * planetmaker neither
19:27:01  <Ammler> you said it before, merge makes both branches equal
19:27:10  <Ammler> which is clear
19:27:31  <Yexo> that was wrongly worded
19:27:45  <Ammler> :-)
19:27:51  <Yexo> it creates a new commit that is a parent of both branches, ie incorporates all chagnes from both branches
19:28:47  <Rubidium> technically you could commit all fixes to the stable branch and merge that into trunk, but that's generally not how development happens
19:28:51  <Ammler> but the merge itself is on one branch
19:29:25  <Yexo> Ammler: It doesn't matter if you copy all changes from A to B, or all changes from B to A. The end result is the same
19:29:29  <Ammler> Rubidium: but that is how you write your changelog
19:30:10  <Yexo> Ammler: "generally not how development happens", read: "there can be some exceptions, like the changelog"
19:30:25  <Ammler> Yexo: the changelog tells, you copy the changes from A to B, but the real work was the other way
19:30:49  <Yexo> the changelog tells nothing about the way of development
19:31:03  <Yexo> the only thing it tells you is which things have changed compared to the previous version
19:31:45  <Ammler> but the previous version of 1.3.0 is not 1.2.x, it is 1.2.0
19:32:05  <Yexo> a user won't see it that way
19:32:07  <Ammler> in case of openttd that is
19:32:44  <Yexo> if he previously had 1.2.1 and now gets 1.3.0, he wants to now the changes between those versions
19:33:05  <Yexo> the changelog provides an easy way to do that by you reading the changes for 1.2.2, for 1.2.3, for 1.2.x up to 1.3.0
19:34:58  <Ammler> that might be the reason you need write the changelog manually :-)
19:35:27  <Yexo> a proper changelog is always written manually
19:35:51  <Ammler> yeah, it is nice if upstream has one
19:37:23  <Rubidium> luckily making a changelog is relatively easy as long as there are no Tron-esque commits
19:49:05  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Support #4236: Support for 0.2 series XHirundoX @
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20:41:37  <planetmaker> hm. Despite the error which the DevZone and nml gave, the resulting OpenGFX works well for me...
20:42:03  <planetmaker> should I call that a release and move the result from ERROR to a successful build on the bundles server?
20:42:39  <planetmaker> hm, I redact my previous two statements
20:44:13  <planetmaker> hm... and my previous one. I forgot how the town indicators work :O
20:47:15  <Ammler> I guess, the rpm failed because there is no openttd installed?
20:49:37  <planetmaker> well. I don't know. it might have failed due to an devzone.err.log not being empty?
20:49:47  <Ammler> no
20:49:53  <Ammler> that doesn't cause an error
20:50:17  <Ammler> R;%{BUILD}/*.zip
20:50:35  <Ammler> T;%{RPMBUILDDIR}/RPMS/noarch/*.noarch.rpm <-- rpm build didn't finish
20:50:45  <Ammler> because test failed because there is no openttd
20:51:05  <planetmaker> ok. So it's safe to call it built successful
20:51:19  <planetmaker> and I've no clue why the test suddenly should fail
20:51:27  <Ammler> yep, well from my POV
20:51:37  <Ammler> which test?
20:51:53  <planetmaker> <Ammler> because test failed because there is no openttd
20:52:10  <Ammler> because there is no openttd
20:52:16  <Ammler> BuildRequires: openttd
20:52:32  <Ammler> or we remove that check
20:52:35  <planetmaker> ... right. So the ... test script there in the rpm is somewhat faulty
20:53:07  <Ammler> yep
20:53:14  <Ammler> let me commit a fix
20:53:35  <Ammler> well, won't fix the release itself
20:53:41  <Ammler> you can rename it
20:53:42  <planetmaker> why why is that suddenly faulty? Didn't it work in 0.4.4?
20:56:30  <Ammler> maybe added the test after?
20:56:51  <Ammler> forgot to backport the buildrequires
20:56:56  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #4282 (Closed): DevZone compile failed XcompilerX @
20:56:56  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Revision 991:ee4a8384decb: Fix #4282: install openttd for the check: XAmmlerX @
20:56:56  <Brot6> OpenGFX - Bug #4282 (Closed): DevZone compile failed XAmmlerX @
20:59:08  <Ammler> sorry, because I saw the errors in nml, I didn't check the log earlier
20:59:35  <Ammler> if you like, you could simply retag
20:59:40  <Ammler> use same name
21:01:06  <planetmaker> not worth the trouble. I'll just rename on bundles
21:01:19  <planetmaker> and will be used on the next tag :-)
21:01:50  <Ammler> he, indeed, the revision is higher and so you have another checksum
21:01:56  <planetmaker> eh... file system only readable?
21:02:05  <planetmaker> as root@bundles?
21:02:09  <Ammler> well, IMO as long as there is no release, it wouldn't hurt, but up to you
21:02:17  <Ammler> don't forget to update the finger too
21:02:41  <Ammler> hg tag 0.4.5; hg push
21:02:49  <Ammler> might be less trouble then :-P
21:03:06  <planetmaker> I hate re-tagging
21:03:15  <Ammler> I know :-D
21:03:33  <Ammler> else I would have done it :-P
21:03:46  <planetmaker> good. why can't I write on the FS as root@bundles?
21:04:10  <Ammler> root can always write
21:04:35  <Ammler> else you might use the read-only mount
21:04:37  <planetmaker> cannot move the 0.4.5 dir of opengfx one higher
21:05:25  <Ammler> you missed the announcement, where we merged ips
21:05:36  <Ammler> and since then bundles has no default ssh port
21:05:38  <planetmaker> ...
21:05:55  <planetmaker> aha. Our setup is easy I just learned 45 minutes ago
21:06:14  <Ammler> well, and again, you have no clue
21:06:51  <planetmaker> please continue to lecture... just tell me when you will tell me what I asked
21:06:57  <Ammler> this was done on haydn
21:07:26  <Ammler> and what did you ask?
21:08:00  <planetmaker> what frigging login into which VM do I need to be able to change something on the bundles server? Wasn't that clear?
21:08:02  <Ammler> port? 10222
21:08:21  <Ammler> but I should not help you, as you could retag :-P
21:08:57  <Ammler> or you could do like I do and ssh to cimarosa and vzctl enter
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21:09:30  <Ammler> with a previous vzlist
21:10:12  <Ammler> sshport is always <vmid>22
21:12:20  <Ammler> the other issue is still, that we don't know, if I really fixed it ;-)
21:25:02  <Brot6> OpenGFX - OpenGFX 0.4.5 XplanetmakerX @
21:27:15  <Ammler> you might also like to move the "crap" down to a subdir log
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22:38:34  <Brot6> World Airliners Set - Revision 1120:5e14cebf0dad: Coded ATR 72-200F - Close #4242 XBeardie27X @
22:38:35  <Brot6> World Airliners Set - Feature #4242 (Closed): Code ATR 72-200F XBeardie27X @
22:39:10  <Brot6> worldairlinersset: update from r1119 to r1120 done -
22:52:48  <Brot6> World Airliners Set - Code Review #4280: ATR 42-300/500 72-200/500 May All Have Incorrect Ranges XFrankX @
23:15:42  <Brot6> World Airliners Set - Revision 1121:25b2aac489e8: Coded ATR 72-200F in ATR.NFO (Was Missed) - Featur... XBeardie27X @
23:16:32  <Brot6> World Airliners Set - Bug #4283 (New): DevZone compile failed XcompilerX @
23:27:04  <Brot6> World Airliners Set - Revision 1122:0b6d74067a0f: Coded ATR 72-200F in IDs and Filenames (Missed/Err... XBeardie27X @
23:27:23  <Brot6> worldairlinersset: update from r1120 to r1122 done (26 warnings) -
23:34:55  <Brot6> World Airliners Set - Bug #4284 (New): Fix All ATR 72-200F White Pixel Errors XBeardie27X @
23:36:45  <Brot6> World Airliners Set - Bug #4283 (Closed): DevZone compile failed XcompilerX @
23:36:46  <Brot6> World Airliners Set - Bug #4283 (Closed): DevZone compile failed XBeardie27X @

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