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08:05:26 *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 08:41:26 *** Supercheese has left #openttdcoop.devzone 08:52:00 *** Alberth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 09:43:27 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 10:05:29 <Alberth> another andy here! hi :) 10:12:08 <planetmaker> :-) 10:12:46 <planetmaker> Alberth, is there a way to test your translation service? I mean... how I could quickly 'check out what it does'? 10:14:15 <Alberth> check-out, install python 3, ./run 10:14:27 <planetmaker> oh, python 3? 10:14:43 <planetmaker> but that sounds easy enough. thanks :-) 10:14:53 <Alberth> open a web-browser at http://localhost:8000/ 10:14:59 <planetmaker> I must have overlooked the ./run script 10:15:18 <Alberth> but it's green! :) 10:17:03 <planetmaker> indeed it is 10:17:37 <Alberth> lol 10:17:57 * planetmaker needs the button "create new translation" :D 10:18:30 <Alberth> no, you need the "upload translation file" function ;) 10:18:56 <planetmaker> or that :-) 10:19:14 <Alberth> manually writing the data file is very cumbersome, I found :) 10:19:19 <planetmaker> hm... I managed to get a 500... :-O 10:19:43 <Alberth> oh, that's very possible 10:19:51 <planetmaker> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2057/ 10:21:53 <Alberth> hmm, it works here 10:23:09 <Alberth> but it is mostly aimed as proof of concept, I think 10:23:18 <planetmaker> it initially worked here, too 10:23:35 <planetmaker> but I went back and forth a bit in the browser... random clicks :D 10:24:36 <Alberth> ah, random clicking works :p 10:24:39 <planetmaker> ah, yes. start. firs->dutch. go back in browser. choose english. go back. choos dutch. see fail 10:25:40 <Alberth> I am pretty sure the current pages are not what you want to see 10:26:18 <planetmaker> they're committed language files in your repo, I know :-) 10:27:08 <Alberth> I mean, as translator, are you interested to see all strings? 10:27:37 <planetmaker> That depends 10:28:24 <planetmaker> There are translation tasks where an overview is quite nice to keep things consistent. Or to do some c&p 10:29:15 <planetmaker> generally I find current OpenTTD's web translator UI badly designed wrt the extremely limited display capability of strings 10:29:28 <Alberth> I have never seen it :) 10:29:43 <planetmaker> Most important change there I can imagine is that it always displays the full string to be translated and the full translation of the string I translate 10:29:56 <Alberth> some screenshots would be great 10:30:26 <planetmaker> I'll create some for you 10:30:41 <Alberth> yes, I have the information like the script I made in mind to display when translating a single string 10:30:48 <planetmaker> I could also give you a translator account for Dutch though ;-) 10:31:16 <Alberth> nah, others are much better in Dutch than me :) 10:31:31 <planetmaker> well. for you to see how it works / looks 10:31:50 <planetmaker> sometimes that's easier than screenshots 10:33:06 <Alberth> I agree, but it's too early now; I first want to have solid file transfer 10:34:04 <Alberth> then I probably have to consider what services to offer precisely, and start version 2 :) 10:39:41 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/translate_service/ some screenshots 10:40:13 <planetmaker> naming of files should give away what view it constitutes 10:43:28 <planetmaker> note there especially the fixed-width of the content (only shown in one image) which wastes most screen real-estate which would dearly be needed 10:43:35 <Alberth> ha, I understand now what happens :) 10:44:20 <planetmaker> and the limit to one-line text display which is a bad choice from that POV as well. Looks nice. But works badly for real work. 10:46:26 <Alberth> thanks 10:46:48 <Alberth> the two-column idea looks wrong indeed 10:47:07 <planetmaker> np :-) Please tell, if I can be of help with this in whatever way 10:47:44 <planetmaker> two-column is not necessarily bad. But it will be bad for small screens. Rather two rows there 10:47:47 <Alberth> no doubt I'll have lots of detail questions at some point :) 10:48:09 <planetmaker> I'll have no problem on this desktop with two-columns, though ;-) 10:48:29 <planetmaker> How many columns you choose, you will need multi-line text display for strings in any case 10:48:36 <Alberth> I already have major trouble editing the firs translation with a wrapping editor 10:49:03 <Alberth> indeed. 10:49:04 <planetmaker> s/display/editor/ indeed 10:49:05 <Brot6> planetmaker meant: "How many columns you choose, you will need multi-line text editor for strings in any case" 10:50:16 <Alberth> my idea of a single string for each string name is also broken probably, I need to take genders into account as well 10:50:31 <planetmaker> yes, indeed 10:50:58 <planetmaker> I rather chose Greek by accident ... but it seems to have genders and cases :D 10:53:08 <Alberth> I wonder what happens if your master language has genders and cases :) 10:53:22 <Alberth> makes life pretty complicated probably :D 10:53:37 <planetmaker> o_O Not sure it actually should have :-) 10:53:50 <planetmaker> and tbh, not sure you should worry about that 10:53:53 <planetmaker> for now 10:54:22 <Alberth> I don't, but my mind automagically jumps to such corner cases :) 10:54:41 <planetmaker> Which speaks a lot about your mind :-P 10:55:13 <planetmaker> (good things though :-) ) 10:55:39 <Alberth> but I can imagine it happens in projects, eg simutrans is german of origin, so their strings are probably more complicated than the english variants 10:57:00 <Alberth> A jumping mind is very handy in software engineering. A problem however is that for other people I seem to make weird context jumps when discussing an issue :) 10:57:16 <planetmaker> yes, of course it happens :-) hehe 11:00:43 <Alberth> My supervisor of the university final project really had a hard time, he really couldn't follow me from time to time. There I learned that I skipped a lot of intermediate steps without even being aware of it :) 11:01:22 <planetmaker> hm :-) 12:09:31 <Alberth> fixed the bug 12:09:31 <Brot6> Webtranslator - Revision 4:02e400dee0e3: Fix: Insert a TextString as new master text instead of the ... XAlberthX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/eints/repository/revisions/02e400dee0e3 12:09:58 <Alberth> stupid dynamic typing :) 12:14:01 <planetmaker> :-) 12:37:29 *** ODM has quit IRC 12:47:12 <Alberth> planetmaker: what translationfile should I aim for? openttd or newgrf? 12:47:50 <planetmaker> hm :-) Aren't the NML files very much like OpenTTD language files? 12:48:58 <planetmaker> but which... tbh, it might be quite nice to have an implementation for our main website which would allow to be developed easier than current one 12:49:13 <planetmaker> We might gain more by that than a NewGRF translation service 12:49:37 <planetmaker> But in the end, both is nice. The NewGRF translation adds new. While the OpenTTD translation ... would mostly be a refactoring 12:49:47 <Alberth> it is not either or imho, I intend to abstract syntax details into a separate module 12:49:50 <planetmaker> I'm torn :-) 12:50:17 <Alberth> so at least in theory you can have several different language systems 12:50:47 <Alberth> are there things in the newgrf language system which are not in openttd, or vice versa? 12:50:59 <planetmaker> yes, I understand that. So the question really is "what should I toy around to get a working transation service"? 12:51:33 <planetmaker> OpenTTD has some special syntax for the primary language (english.txt) 12:52:43 <Alberth> I don't know about any major differences between both 12:52:52 <planetmaker> http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Special_strings <-- see the plain string replacements 12:53:02 <planetmaker> that works differently. Slightly 12:54:08 <Alberth> lots of it easily captured in some table-ish thingie, it seems at first sight 12:54:12 <planetmaker> other than that, I'm not exactly aware of differences. At least when looking at how NML treats it 12:54:26 *** frosch123 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 12:54:37 <planetmaker> NML of course is only a sub-set of NewGRF 12:54:43 <planetmaker> quak :-) 12:54:51 <Alberth> quek 12:55:31 <Alberth> hmm, are there NewGRF string descriptions? 12:55:57 <Alberth> most of it might not have syntax other than numbers, I am afraid :p 12:56:11 <planetmaker> for NML there's http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Language_files 12:56:36 <Alberth> as obviously, you want to enter a string in hex, one character a time :p 12:56:37 <frosch123> hai :) 12:57:05 <planetmaker> Alberth, for NewGRFs you obviously want to focus on NML language files (first) 12:57:14 <planetmaker> NFO would require quite different treatment, I think 12:57:19 <frosch123> yup, and obviously on gs next :p 12:57:42 <frosch123> i don't see any nfo user except chips 12:57:53 <planetmaker> and that's only NFO due to missing station support :D 12:57:54 <Alberth> thanks, I was looking for that page :) 12:58:36 <planetmaker> Alberth, and generally: NML's intention is to make its treatment of language files as closely matching OpenTTD's as possible 12:58:49 <Alberth> frosch123: what is new in gs, compared to newgrf? 12:58:59 <planetmaker> So... if it there's a difference... it can maybe be removed by some small NML changes :-) 12:59:06 <frosch123> they do not support genders and cases 12:59:07 <Alberth> other than a few more {foo} thingies, probably? 12:59:09 <frosch123> (yet) 12:59:36 <Alberth> leaving out functionality is easy :D 12:59:51 <frosch123> oh, and i believe gs has RAW_STRING 12:59:54 <frosch123> in addition to STRING 12:59:58 <frosch123> not sure about STRINGn 13:00:11 <Alberth> ok, NML looks useful as first target thus 13:00:41 <planetmaker> :-) 15:16:18 <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #4820 (New): Fishing Harbour graphics extend beyond tile XandythenorthX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4820 16:25:15 <Ammler> the main lack of openttd translation is support of a "parent" language 16:26:43 <planetmaker> Ammler, the problem therein is that it would potentially allow parent chains... 16:26:59 <planetmaker> not a show-stopper but definitely a thing complicating it 16:27:22 <frosch123> esp. the windows installer 16:27:30 <planetmaker> Ammler, and then, starting a new translation based on another is not that bad. It just needs maintenance 16:27:31 <frosch123> unless the option to install individual languages was removed 16:27:45 <planetmaker> that's an option I could do without quite fine 16:27:55 <planetmaker> it saves the equivalent of 2 mp3 files 16:28:04 <frosch123> but ofc. the new webtranslator could allow display of other languages in parallel to the original string 16:28:07 <Ammler> planetmaker: it could be done without support of openttd 16:28:10 <planetmaker> which is unmeasurable on a 1TB disk :D 16:28:17 <Ammler> just with a good translator 16:28:41 <planetmaker> frosch123, Alberth that's a good idea, yes :-) 16:28:42 <Alberth> frosch123: "could allow display of other languages in parallel to the original string" ? 16:28:48 <planetmaker> yes 16:29:00 <Alberth> I don't understand it 16:29:01 <Ammler> Alberth: no need for "original" string, just parent string 16:29:09 <planetmaker> like "show me English original and German translations when I do a swiss one" 16:29:22 <planetmaker> Ammler, and when the parent doesn't exist? 16:29:23 <Ammler> I don't need english to make swiss 16:29:24 <frosch123> Alberth: configurable per language; so if you translate pt_BR you could see the existing trasnlation of pt_PT, if there is one 16:29:35 <planetmaker> ^ 16:29:38 <Ammler> planetmaker: then I get parent of my parent 16:29:39 <Alberth> ah, ok 16:29:51 <planetmaker> Ammler, exactly :-) 16:30:03 <Ammler> which is not necessary "original" 16:30:29 <frosch123> Ammler: you always want to see the english original 16:30:35 <frosch123> else you have a case of "stille post" 16:30:51 <Ammler> frosch123: yes, I should be able to set the parent 16:31:41 <Ammler> english is not always the original 16:32:29 <planetmaker> de-facto OpenTTD treats languages as having english_GB as their parent 16:32:46 <Ammler> yes, so you could make the webtranslator too 16:32:51 <planetmaker> it could make sense to define a language as parent which itself has english_GB as parent 16:33:05 <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature Request #4823 (New): While translating a string also allow to show other tra... XAlberthX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4823 16:33:21 <Alberth> stored :) 16:33:31 <planetmaker> :-) 16:33:53 <planetmaker> I think Ammler wants to leach my German translation and Swiss-i-fy it :D 16:34:15 <Ammler> support of parent does already support english as original, so no change needed there 16:34:18 <Alberth> of course it breaks my data structures quite badly atm :) 16:34:53 <Ammler> but webtranslator could also generate the language file with a parent by fill up the missing strings with parent instead original 16:35:11 <Alberth> so when is swiss out of date then? 16:35:22 <planetmaker> :-) Never 16:35:38 <Ammler> well, same time when parent is 16:36:08 <frosch123> writing a different translation into the lang file by the webtranslator is not a good idea 16:36:09 <planetmaker> how do you know? Then in the extrem case you have identical translations 16:36:22 <frosch123> that creates meta data in translator whether a string is translated 16:36:28 <frosch123> which you cannot tell from the source 16:36:33 <planetmaker> I agree, it should need a copy from lang XX by the translator explicitly 16:36:47 <frosch123> and it will break horribly if the translation is changed via the source, e.g. via a sed commit 16:36:52 <planetmaker> It's another thing to also use lang XX as drop-in within the NewGRF / OpenTTD itself as well 16:37:16 <Ammler> frosch123: for openttd, those are 2 lnaguages, it does not know parent etc 16:37:29 <frosch123> Ammler: exactly that is the problem 16:41:13 * Alberth wonders why we don't have {0:P ... } :p 16:41:32 <Ammler> it is basically the same issue, when original changes a string but translation doesn't need change 16:42:09 <Alberth> yes, also not expressable in current file format 16:43:13 <Ammler> well, it is you can have dummy change with whitespace change 16:43:17 <frosch123> sure it is; you just need to run "annotate" instead of "cat" 16:44:53 <Alberth> frosch123: but then you actually have to change the line in the translation. The text is however correct, so you have to do a hack like Ammler suggests 16:45:23 <frosch123> ah, true, you cannot commit no-change 16:45:25 <Alberth> ie I cannot express "I verified the text, and the translation is still ok" 16:47:51 <Ammler> so bascially the webtranslator just needs a button "use string from parent" and "no change needed" 16:50:14 <Alberth> you may want to make a FR for that :) 16:54:02 <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature Request #4823: While translating a string also allow to show other translati... XAmmlerX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4823#change-13046 17:07:56 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:24:11 <Brot6> zBuild - Bug #4826 (New): DevZone compile failed XcompilerX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4826 17:24:58 <planetmaker> meh. Disk quota exceeded, Ammler 17:25:11 <Ammler> afain :-o 17:25:18 <Ammler> something is spamming the server then 17:25:25 <Ammler> again* 17:25:33 <Brot6> zBuild - Bug #4826 (Rejected): DevZone compile failed XcompilerX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4826 17:25:34 <Brot6> zBuild - Bug #4826 (Rejected): DevZone compile failed XplanetmakerX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4826#change-13049 17:25:48 <Ammler> planetmaker: did you rise the quota? 17:25:51 <planetmaker> nope 17:28:01 <Ammler> hmm, the ticket was valid 17:28:54 <Brot6> zBuild - Bug #4826 (Closed): DevZone compile failed XcompilerX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4826 17:28:54 <Brot6> zBuild - Bug #4826 (Closed): DevZone compile failed XAmmlerX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4826#change-13052 17:30:08 <planetmaker> Ammler, no, it was not valid. It's an issue for the CF. Not the set 17:31:14 <planetmaker> it would have been valid in a different context. But not the one it was raised 17:33:12 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 17:47:33 <Brot6> Industrial Stations Renewal - Revision 23:ccd82c222eb6: Feature: [FIRS] Add FIRS cargos to container... Xmart3pX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/isr/repository/revisions/ccd82c222eb6 17:55:47 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 18:02:43 <Ammler> planetmaker: then you should have moved it to "the right" context ;-) 18:06:17 *** Zuu has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 18:15:01 <planetmaker> Ammler, normal project managers can't do that ;-) 18:48:44 <Brot6> zbuild: update from r74 to r74 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/zbuild/nightlies/r74 18:49:31 <Brot6> isr: update from r22 to r23 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/isr/nightlies/r23 19:30:01 *** Supercheese has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 19:35:46 *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 19:58:40 *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 20:20:05 *** farske has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 20:21:54 *** farske has quit IRC 20:44:03 *** Alberth has left #openttdcoop.devzone 21:20:17 <Brot6> Industrial Stations Renewal - Revision 24:3f5ae31cfe9d: Feature: [FIRS]: Add FIRS cargos to remainin... Xmart3pX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/isr/repository/revisions/3f5ae31cfe9d 21:23:55 *** ODM has quit IRC 21:49:14 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:51:37 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:26:42 <Brot6> Industrial Stations Renewal - Revision 25:0b784fdcbc2f: Feature: [FIRS] Add alcohol and milk to barr... Xmart3pX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/isr/repository/revisions/0b784fdcbc2f 22:56:00 <Brot6> Industrial Stations Renewal - Revision 26:073fc5556fcc: Update: Change copyright dates to 2013 Xmart3pX @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/isr/repository/revisions/073fc5556fcc 23:48:06 *** Zuu has quit IRC 23:57:04 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 23:57:37 *** Supercheese has joined #openttdcoop.devzone