Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 19th May 2013:
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06:37:55  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #5687 (New): Docs - cargo entry for Mail is empty XandythenorthX @
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07:37:22  <Alberth> moin
07:37:38  <planetmaker> hi :-)
07:41:20  <Alberth> I have been asked to write a short piece in the electronic newsletter of our department of what I do in my free time
07:42:04  <Alberth> so I am somewhat pondering how to explain what I do to the non-technically minded average person :)
07:47:07  <planetmaker> he :-) Game developement? Translation service development?
07:47:41  <planetmaker> to what detail level you want / shall explain it? What's their background?
07:47:55  <planetmaker> what place do you work at?
07:49:51  <Rubidium> Alberth: "gaat je geen drol aan"? ;)
07:50:21  <planetmaker> in the broadest sense... most of your contributions are in the area of UI enhancements. Be that window + widget system, translator, industry chain view. Industry generation falls out of the window :-)
07:50:58  <Alberth> university department mechanical engineering
07:51:17  <planetmaker> (and sorry, this is just from my mind without digging deep in it)
07:51:18  <Alberth> but that includes all secretaries too :)
07:51:23  <planetmaker> aye
07:52:08  <Alberth> so perhaps more about open source, and how we work or so?
07:52:30  <Alberth> the technical bits are not that interesting to the large public
07:52:39  <planetmaker> it's definitely an important part, I guess, yes
07:52:58  <planetmaker> But they'll definitely also want to know what projects those are
07:53:15  <planetmaker> "write computer games". Done :-P
07:53:26  <Alberth> oh, sure, I'll mention openttd, and freerct :p
07:54:08  <Alberth> and add a "(warning: highly addictive)" note to the former ;)
07:54:21  <planetmaker> haha :-) How long shall it get?
07:54:37  <Rubidium> "I build construction sets (train and rollercoaster sets), and help people who aren't native English with understanding it"
07:54:43  <Alberth> 600 words, I guess in Dutch, but they didn't state a language
07:54:57  <planetmaker> well, I guess should be Dutch in your case :-)
07:56:30  <Alberth> I was aiming at English currently; the newsletter is also published in English translation, so this time, they can do the translation the other way around :)
07:56:48  <Rubidium> use pig latin ;)
07:57:04  <Alberth> Rubidium: yeah, the more social parts would be good to mention, imho
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07:58:16  <planetmaker> 600 words is not terribly much. So you can briefly describe the projects in two, three sentences. Tell that you work with a bunch of nerds on these projects, that you discuss on how to bring it forward, in general and also on the technical detail level, and implement the parts which interest you most
07:59:32  <Alberth> probably a good plan, as I also need to explain the existence of open source software
07:59:36  <planetmaker> And you should mention the difference of the way it works here compared to how it works at your work work
08:00:18  <planetmaker> i.e. that sometimes more time and attention can be put to (petty) details, but getting possibly finally a saner solution - at the cost of MUCH more time ;-)
08:00:18  <Alberth> in a politically correct way of course
08:00:25  <planetmaker> of course!
08:00:35  <Alberth> :)
08:01:02  <planetmaker> (dunno if the "saner solution" is true. You'll have the better comparison :-)
08:01:15  <Alberth> thanks for your suggestions, I'll have a go at it
08:01:50  <planetmaker> no problem :-)
08:02:25  <Alberth> "cleaner" (or "conceptually better") solution is probably what we aim for :)
08:02:51  <planetmaker> :-)
08:03:45  <planetmaker> maybe also the 'diverse backgrounds' of people in the community is an aspect. Though university is quite diverse usually, too.
08:04:21  <planetmaker> Especially if you're at a mechanical department... you'll have people from many backgrounds there, too
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10:15:14  <andythenorth> Alberth: project settings done ;)
10:15:29  <planetmaker> eints?
10:15:34  <andythenorth> yup
10:15:40  <planetmaker> \o/ :-)
10:15:49  <^Spike^> server works?
10:15:56  <andythenorth> dunno :)
10:16:00  <planetmaker> oh, is it solved, ^Spike^ ?
10:16:02  * andythenorth staying out of deployment stuff
10:16:06  <^Spike^> i'm asking :)
10:16:13  <^Spike^> i'
10:16:13  <^Spike^> i've missed what happend last night :)
10:16:16  <planetmaker> :D I thought you were fixing ;-)
10:16:30  <planetmaker> I wasn't around last night either :D
10:17:05  <Alberth> project settings is just a page where you can set the name and URL of an eints project. I made a messy html page yesterday, and andy just fixed it
10:17:12  <Alberth> thanks andythenorth :)
10:17:49  <Alberth> ^Spike^: nah, you didn't miss anything :(
10:18:04  <^Spike^> ah
10:18:31  <andythenorth> you missed me havin an idea to use tabs in project navigation ;)
10:18:34  <andythenorth> but that is all
10:18:52  <Alberth> :)
10:19:58  <planetmaker> Alberth, the issue we seem to have is that the container is setup all fine. But is not reachable somehow as all traffic meant to go to it ends up at another VM...
10:20:28  <andythenorth> wrong IP?
10:20:42  * andythenorth is not very knowledgeable about VM routing
10:20:58  <^Spike^> ehm?
10:21:02  <andythenorth> but in some cases the VM has it's own IP
10:21:22  <andythenorth> depends on the hypervisor I think
10:21:24  <planetmaker> more like mis-guided NAT
10:21:38  <^Spike^> it's iptables NAT
10:21:39  <Alberth> andythenorth: mostly, instead of real problems you now have virtual problems?
10:21:41  <andythenorth> which hypervisor do we have?
10:21:42  <planetmaker> but for me it's also more like poking in the dark
10:21:44  <^Spike^> openvz
10:21:54  <^Spike^> pm it's going to the right VM btw
10:21:58  <^Spike^> just checked fw
10:22:13  <planetmaker> strange. so... just root login not working?
10:22:19  <andythenorth> WSGI listening on the right port?
10:22:42  <^Spike^> testing that PM
10:22:47  <planetmaker> ^Spike^, but when I try to http:// it, I also end up at a redmine page. Thus it doesn't reach that VM
10:22:47  <Alberth> andythenorth: we haven't got to the point of running anything in it ;p
10:23:07  <^Spike^> i'll check http later
10:23:10  <^Spike^> might be in the proxy
10:23:41  <^Spike^> damn i should be checking loadbalancer for work which has a memleak.... oh well can check this anyway :D
10:24:00  <planetmaker> what I'd like to test is adding a non-root user and trying to ssh to that
10:24:07  <^Spike^> that works
10:24:09  <^Spike^> just did that
10:24:12  <planetmaker> oi
10:24:21  <^Spike^> my homedir doesn't exist but that's a different issue :D
10:24:48  <planetmaker> hm. Then I was insuccessful in enabling root login, despite my idea of having changed the right things in sshd-config
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10:29:19  <andythenorth> ADSL fell over :(
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10:30:45  <Rubidium> poor DSL
10:31:40  <Rubidium> DSL zero points?
10:32:38  <^Spike^> :)
10:33:17  <Rubidium> and who agrees Smörgåsbord was the best song? ;)
10:34:08  * planetmaker cannot argue there one way or another. I haven't listend to it this year a single bit of neither ;-)
10:37:35  <Rubidium>
10:37:35  <Webster> Title: ESC 2013 FINAL - Petra Mede - Swedish Smörgåsbord, Length: 6m 0s, Views: 301, Likes: 199
10:41:34  <^Spike^> damn you Webster ;)
10:43:00  <planetmaker> right :D
10:45:45  <andythenorth> so
10:46:16  <andythenorth> non-track station tiles need to be buildable on corner coast tiles
10:47:01  <planetmaker> that would fail badly, if newgrfs are removed :-)
10:47:26  <andythenorth> oh :)
10:47:27  <planetmaker> there's not a fallback station tile then
10:47:34  <andythenorth> are we supporting newgrf removal now? o_O
10:47:39  <planetmaker> no :-)
10:47:56  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - coast_stations.png XandythenorthX @
10:48:02  <andythenorth>
10:48:07  <andythenorth> I know objects can solve it
10:48:10  <andythenorth> but meh to that
10:48:18  <planetmaker> but load would need changing then the tile type. Which we so far don't need to do in such cases
10:48:18  <andythenorth> also water station tiles
10:48:39  <andythenorth> NewStations :P
10:48:45  <planetmaker> yes
10:49:31  <planetmaker> the error you show is a different, though ;-)
10:52:44  <planetmaker> mostly imho we need NewPorts :-)
10:52:54  <planetmaker> then we'd have slope station tiles automatically
11:16:37  <Brot6> SuperLib - Revision 96:9a6a2926a0bd: Feature: Town.IsDesertTown and Town.IsSnowTown XZuuX @
11:18:06  <planetmaker> Zuu, IsDesertTown and IsSnowTown certainly could be one... IsDesertSnowTown
11:18:10  <planetmaker> It's the same tile, no?
11:18:33  <planetmaker> Desert is just differently-coloured snow on the map :-)
11:19:02  <Zuu> Desert can be cached, snow can't
11:19:20  <planetmaker> true :-)
11:20:15  <Zuu> And IIRC they use an internal common function for implementing the fallback heuristics.
11:20:40  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #5690 (New): Liquid Facility tile(s) XandythenorthX @
11:20:40  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #5693 (New): Dispatcher's Office XandythenorthX @
11:22:05  <planetmaker> yes, that well might be. At time of retrieving the value it's a map access. But the value for snow can change
11:24:10  <Zuu> SuperLib caches the desert value transparently for the library user. The snow value is not cached. So if a script want to avoid a too high impact on being ran on OpenTTD 1.3.0 or older, it wil have to implement a cache itself based upon some strategy.
11:24:40  <planetmaker> ah, smart :-)
11:25:01  <planetmaker> the lib is smarter than I expected :-)
11:28:29  <Zuu> Results from some of its slower heuristics are cached in private variables. Currently there is no help for AIs/GSes that wish to save the cache in savegames, so either they have to play with the private vars (not recommended) or be okay with that the cache is lost when a game is saved + loaded.
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11:29:24  <planetmaker> my mental cache is also reset when I reload a savegame ;-)
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11:39:26  <Alberth> imho reloading does not happen often enough to warrant the complexities of saving internal state of a library
11:39:56  <Alberth> but if you insist, you could offer a function to the user to query and set the state
11:43:23  <planetmaker> yes, saving map information is a bit pointless between load and save. Except maybe to save AI time which can be considered limited
11:49:04  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Feature #5696 (New): Earliest freight wagons should be available longer, not avai... Xkyosuke1989X @
11:53:03  <Alberth>
11:53:40  <Alberth> hmm, 640 words, but it probably counted all the URLs too :p
11:55:26  <andythenorth> "doesn't know programming" :D
11:55:27  <Alberth> not enough, it gives 627 words without urls :p
11:55:40  <planetmaker> Not sure a secretary knows the games. Thus s/probably know/might know/g ?
11:56:04  <Alberth> andythenorth: sorry
11:56:14  <andythenorth> it's strictly true
11:56:30  <planetmaker> Not sure most people know what IRC is
11:57:00  <Alberth> andythenorth: "who has limited programming expertise"  :)
11:57:01  <andythenorth> your article doesn't flow so well with "has a passing ability in some aspects of programming, a pretty good understanding of certain aspects, and a total blindness to other aspects of programming"
11:57:34  <Alberth> I need 600 words just to decribe you adequately :p
11:58:28  <Alberth> planetmaker: added "(real-time chatting)"
11:59:55  <andythenorth> "Dispatcher's Office" or "Dispatchers' Office" ?
12:00:01  * andythenorth is making a station tile
12:00:25  <Alberth> 's  means "is" ?
12:00:37  <Alberth> so it would be the latter then, I think
12:00:46  <andythenorth> depends how many are inside the building
12:00:52  <Alberth> :D
12:01:02  <andythenorth> the correct answer demands unavailable knowledge :P
12:01:16  <Rubidium> I'd say dispatchers'
12:01:26  <andythenorth> I could cop out
12:01:30  <andythenorth> Dispatch Office
12:01:42  <Rubidium> either there is no-one, or there are a few as you need them to play cards ;)
12:01:50  <Alberth> make 2 tiles, exactly the same, one called "Dispatcher's Office", and one "Dispatchers' Office", so people can choose :D
12:01:55  <andythenorth> hmm
12:01:59  <andythenorth> interesting approach
12:02:22  <Alberth> you probably get bug reports about duplicate tiles :p
12:02:39  <Rubidium> but then you might need up to 5
12:03:24  <Rubidium> oh, sorry... up to 4
12:03:38  <Rubidium> annoying languages with their plural forms
12:04:33  <Rubidium> *or*
12:04:52  <Rubidium> a small one with Dispatcher's office and a large (2x2?) for a Dispatchers' office
12:05:32  <Alberth> good suggestion :)
12:06:25  <Alberth> you can also make a configuration parameter about the card game that dispatchers play in their office
12:06:38  <planetmaker> lol
12:06:44  <andythenorth> poker
12:06:46  <andythenorth> patience
12:06:50  <andythenorth> whist
12:07:31  <planetmaker> bridge, romee, canaster, skat ;-)
12:08:59  <andythenorth> cribbage
12:11:56  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 245:0eb52872d274: Feature: Dispatchers' Office (in which non-patience c... XandythenorthX @
12:14:07  <andythenorth>
12:14:16  <andythenorth> station building nearest camera
12:14:25  <andythenorth> DanMacK made it, I need to shade it to match other buildings
12:14:40  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - dispatchers_office.png XandythenorthX @
12:15:13  <Alberth> looks nice
12:15:20  <andythenorth> I thought so :)
12:16:11  <Alberth> the other buildings look a bit more like a workshop
12:16:38  <Alberth> I'd expect some tracks
12:18:07  <andythenorth> I wondered about some freight shed or workshop
12:18:15  <andythenorth> here are CHIPS current buildings
12:18:20  <andythenorth> room for a few more
12:20:29  <andythenorth> hmm
12:20:40  <andythenorth> maybe a mineral unloader shed
12:23:07  <Alberth> warehouse for cooled goods?
12:24:46  <Alberth> an open storage (just a roof in the air), with stacked bags on pallets?
12:24:56  <andythenorth> warehouse as a track tile?
12:24:57  <Alberth> (lot of work to draw :( )
12:25:23  <Alberth> yeah
12:25:41  <Alberth> although as newobject would work too
12:25:46  <andythenorth> I am mostly just repurposing things from FIRS / other sets.  Have been looking here for ideas:
12:25:47  <andythenorth>
12:25:48  <Webster> Title: Walthers Cornerstone HO Structures ... Euro Model Trains (at
12:27:36  <Alberth> :)
12:28:16  <Alberth> water towers are also somewhat rare in openttd?
12:28:32  <Alberth> I don't remember seeing them, at least
12:28:33  <planetmaker> only in tropical climate. If you mean industry :-)
12:28:53  <Alberth>  I meant at a station :)
12:28:57  <planetmaker> condition: must be built on town house :D ah
12:29:20  <Alberth> silly water tower :p
12:29:32  <planetmaker> :-)
12:31:48  <Alberth> :o big storage tank with a print on it (page 4 at the bottom)
12:33:17  <Alberth> at page 7, 2nd row is an "icehouse" which looks non-common
12:33:28  <Alberth> no idea what "ice" is about though :)
12:34:48  <Alberth> it's a pity, you cannot have more interaction with the vehicles
12:35:08  <planetmaker> :-) It needs state machines for other tiles :-)
12:35:31  <planetmaker> hm... newgrf state machines... airports...
12:36:22  <Alberth> the "chinese take out"  at page 15 would be a good FreeRCT shop :p
12:37:37  <Alberth> lol "rotary dump" at page 16, turn the entire wagon :)
12:37:55  <Alberth> planetmaker: yeah, my hands are itching, but I have too many things already :(
12:39:26  <planetmaker> yeah... there's only so much one can do
12:40:25  <planetmaker> we need more devs :-)
12:46:51  <planetmaker> I found that you're an excellent motivator :-)
12:47:33  <Alberth> it failed with T3rkhen yesterday :)
12:48:54  <planetmaker> well... you're persistent enough with that, I guess. It's a way which doesn't work instantly. But... it works. At least with me :D
12:54:18  <andythenorth> I could make a cold-store warehouse by hacking the dairy
12:55:25  <Alberth> remove one of the houses, and the chimney? :)
12:55:56  <andythenorth> needs to fit one tile
12:56:02  <andythenorth> all CHIPS buildings are 1 tile
12:56:14  <andythenorth> so a bit of redrawing
12:56:46  <Zuu> planetmaker & Alberth: Yes, until now I haven't even though about the need for save/load of internal library cache. If it is ever needed I could offer a SaveToTable and LoadFromTable method that save/loads all internal cache vars to a table. The use of this would then be optional.
12:57:03  <andythenorth> I should have used this model train site when looking for FIRS industries :P
12:57:13  <andythenorth> loads of buildings to steal
12:58:06  <Alberth> it's a pity you cannot have partial buildings, like the empty steel constructs somewhere at the end
13:00:16  <andythenorth> this I wanted to do some time ago:
13:00:22  <andythenorth> waterfront terminal
13:01:12  <Alberth> good station building, even though it misses a part :p
13:15:05  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #5699 (New): Cold-store Warehouse XandythenorthX @
13:15:05  <Brot6> Polish PKP Set 2.0 - Revision 13:6df55bca961f: New wersion: 2.0.6 XTadeuszDX @
13:15:37  <Brot6> Polish PKP Set 2.0 - pkp-2.0.6.grf XTadeuszDX @
13:17:14  <andythenorth> Alberth: the 'home' page of eints seems a bit lame
13:17:30  <andythenorth> could consolidate it with the 'projects' page?
13:17:38  <andythenorth> or provide some dashboard-ish thing?
13:18:48  <Alberth> the reason to keep it separate (in my mind at least), is that the 'projects' page may be protected so bots don't start reading all pages
13:18:57  <andythenorth> hmm
13:18:58  <andythenorth> ok
13:19:01  <Alberth> but that may be a false concept
13:20:10  <Alberth> we could also remove the root entirely
13:20:23  <Alberth> but then it needs a page elsewhere
13:21:19  <Alberth> alternatively, it could display more useless statistics, like  :p
13:21:36  <andythenorth> :)
13:21:43  <Alberth> but doing that for all projects may be bad
13:21:45  <andythenorth> right, the baby woke up
13:21:47  <andythenorth> bbl
13:21:51  <Alberth> back to work :)
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13:24:54  * planetmaker senses that the PKP set could make use better of the DevZone :D
13:26:41  <planetmaker> but it quickly compiles due to nml's newly-found case insensitivity :-) With zillions of warnings :D
13:27:00  <Alberth> \o/  :)
13:29:02  <Alberth> shall we add a    if at_windows(): input("Warning: File system path has incorrect case, continue? (yes/no)")  ?    :D
13:30:18  <planetmaker> :-) The file system path fatally had here the wrong path separator, and non-fatally the wrong case(s)
13:30:58  <planetmaker> can windows complain about incorrect case?
13:31:27  <Alberth> I think it does
13:31:47  <Alberth> iirc, I read the directory contents, and compare with supplied values
13:32:40  <Alberth> but perhaps they use an old nml
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13:48:24  <planetmaker> likely. I just cloned and compiled here, so I saw them
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14:16:49  <Brot6> Polish PKP Set 2.0 - Feature #5708 (New): Building by DevZone XplanetmakerX @
14:49:22  <Brot6> Polish PKP Set 2.0 - Feature #5708: Building by DevZone XplanetmakerX @
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16:48:18  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 246:ac0fc9617c55: Change: improved graphics for Dispatchers' Office (#5... XandythenorthX @
16:48:18  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 247:f7528b785e9a: Docs: update changelog prior to 1.2.0 release XandythenorthX @
16:48:31  <Brot6> chips: update from 1.1.0 to 1.2.0 done -
16:49:27  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 248:6c60b7d681df: Added tag 1.2.0 for changeset f7528b785e9a XandythenorthX @
17:00:53  <andythenorth> new CHIPS
17:00:54  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - CHIPS Station Set - 1.2.0 released 19th May 2013 (at
17:01:08  <andythenorth> that will do for CHIPS today
17:01:51  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Bug #5633 (Reopened): Sr2 uses only side view in game world Xkyosuke1989X @
17:02:13  <planetmaker> :-)
17:04:09  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Bug #5633 (Reopened): Sr2 red "VR" livery uses only side view in game world Xkyosuke1989X @
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17:14:31  <Alberth> storage huts!  :o     pretty!
17:15:43  <Alberth> very nice andy
17:16:39  * planetmaker looks at forum posting... oh, yes, very beautiful! :-)
17:17:08  <Alberth> a nice change from the usual square boxes :p
17:18:02  <planetmaker> yeah. And colourful. Not too depressing like some "realistic" sets :-)
17:18:22  <planetmaker> (imho this game lives from vibrant colours)
17:18:27  <Brot6> chips: update from r243 to r248 done -
17:18:54  <Alberth> the south american houses are a bit too much imho
17:20:14  <planetmaker> Not sure. Favelas are quite diverse :-)
17:21:55  <Alberth> I see some walls jumping out so much, it sort of blurs the other parts
17:23:44  <planetmaker> hm, maybe that bright yellowish wall on the SE side of the red-roofed house
17:32:58  <andythenorth> favelas are a nice idea, execution not great
17:33:04  <andythenorth> first set though by that guy
17:33:11  <andythenorth> takes a while to get good
17:34:52  <planetmaker> why is it bad, andythenorth ?
17:35:48  <andythenorth> it's not bad.  But the roof painting could be nicer
17:36:05  <andythenorth> and ground should be different hue
17:36:20  <andythenorth> it's hard to distinguish ground from some walls / roofs
17:36:42  <andythenorth> rest is nice, looks jumbled up
17:36:55  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Bug #5633 (Closed): Sr2 red "VR" livery uses only side view in game world Xjuzza1X @
17:40:19  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Feature #5711 (New): Updating Freight wagon cargo classes, second update, other u... Xkyosuke1989X @
17:40:35  <Brot6> ogfx-landscape: update from r191 to r192 done -
17:41:56  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Feature #5711 (New): Updating Freight wagon cargo classes, second update, other u... Xkyosuke1989X @
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19:22:11  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Feature #5714 (New): Freight wagon doors closing at 100% load individually in a c... Xkyosuke1989X @
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20:21:12  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Revision 155:5547eb46036e: Fix: Cargo restrictions loosened for better industry n... Xjuzza1X @
20:21:13  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Revision 156:c468ce013da6: Fix: Steam train TE and weight corrections Xjuzza1X @
20:21:13  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Revision 157:8dd9651fb3cc: Fix: Passenger loading times greatly decreased Xjuzza1X @
20:21:15  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Revision 158:ba1e929301cc: Fix: Fixed an error in Sr2 year-dependent and build ye... Xjuzza1X @
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21:53:12  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Revision 159:145081453f0e: Fix: Tanker wagon cargo adjustments Xjuzza1X @
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22:46:18  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Feature #5717 (New): Passenger loading speed configurable by NewGRF parametre Xkyosuke1989X @
22:48:54  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Bug #5720 (New): Ma wagon sprites Xkyosuke1989X @

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