Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 9th July 2013:
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00:13:10  <Brot6> xussrset: update from r1038 to r1041 done (4 warnings) -
00:32:07  <Brot6> xussrset: update from r1041 to r1042 done (4 warnings) -
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16:10:00  <planetmaker> andythenorth, not sure I get the question... you mean a bus factor of 1 wrt devzone?
16:10:05  <andythenorth> yes
16:10:33  <planetmaker> not exactly, but it got worse, of course
16:10:45  <andythenorth> is he ok?
16:10:51  <andythenorth> does anyone know? o_O
16:11:04  <planetmaker> ^spike^ has full root access on DevZone's hypervisor as does dihedral
16:11:27  <planetmaker> he's ok. But quite busy, I guess mostly with RL. as far as I know
16:12:23  <andythenorth> RL :P
16:12:23  <planetmaker> I'm not entirely sure who has access to the actual account at hetzner which pays the server
16:12:30  <andythenorth> people should get their priorities correct :P
16:12:38  <planetmaker> that - as far as I know - is limited to myself and Ammler
16:12:46  <andythenorth> 1. TTD 2. RL
16:12:48  <planetmaker> or does ^Spike^ have?
16:13:49  <planetmaker> were it not 19% cheaper if ammler owned the account, I'd have tried to ask to transfer it to me. But this way... meh
16:14:45  <andythenorth> hmm
16:14:46  <planetmaker> anyway, transferring it to me might not be good. Then the bus factor with openttd contracts 'owners' would be... one :D - though of course there's more who have all login data for openttd server and ovh details
16:15:08  <andythenorth> are there backups for devzone stuff?
16:15:22  <planetmaker> on dihedral's server. We kinda backup eachother
16:15:42  <andythenorth> so we'd have a 'buy new server, restore' option?
16:15:50  <andythenorth> with maybe some problems around domains / DNS?
16:16:14  <planetmaker> yes. The *domain* #openttdcoop is owned by Osai
16:17:20  <planetmaker> but at least ammler has the ability to change that. I probably could - if I know how and where
16:17:33  <planetmaker> I never asked to do anything with DNS
16:18:48  <planetmaker> anyway, Ammler is not totally offline. shutdown the server and he'll notice ;-) We found out that when I last restarted the server :-)
16:19:22  <andythenorth> ok :)
16:20:24  <planetmaker> but I know what you mean... I'm somewhat concerned, too :S
16:20:55  <andythenorth> I am not worried
16:21:01  <andythenorth> but concerned is correct term
16:21:29  <andythenorth> I moved away from having my own site because I figure we're already very very dependent on devzone
16:21:34  * planetmaker now has to look up the difference between 'worry' and 'concern'
16:21:42  <andythenorth> one keeps you awake at night
16:21:49  <planetmaker> ah
16:21:51  <andythenorth> the other is what you think about when you start working in the morning
16:22:20  <planetmaker> ok :-)
16:22:29  <planetmaker> thanks for that lesson :-)
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16:23:34  <planetmaker> and I agree, DevZone IMHO has become an essential part, so it needs taking care of
16:25:19  <andythenorth> I am not a good sysadmin :P
16:25:28  <planetmaker> nor am I actually... :S
16:25:30  <andythenorth> I have a self-imposed ban on sysadmin work
16:26:02  <planetmaker> :-)
16:26:42  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #6167 (New): White line above Hopper XDarthrafaelX @
16:29:54  <Alberth> I try to have that too, but it fails to work :p
16:31:39  <andythenorth> just break Apache a few times, then your boss will stop you doing it
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16:31:42  <andythenorth> worked for me
16:32:26  <planetmaker> andythenorth, the biggest issue is actually not so much that no people have access. But that Ammler is the one who setup DevZone and only him knows well how everything works together
16:33:06  <andythenorth> hard to get around that
16:33:21  <andythenorth> systems aren't easy to document
16:33:44  <planetmaker> yes. And it's not for him not trying. He made quite some effort to do so
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16:39:36  <Rubidium_> so Ammler is like TB? ;)
16:39:45  <planetmaker> kinda ;-)
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16:40:13  <andythenorth> maybe we could merge them :P
16:40:33  <planetmaker> oh, no, please not :-)
16:40:34  * Rubidium wonders when they're going to replace the sysadmin at work ;)
16:41:02  <planetmaker> hehe. Still the one you told about some time ago the 'funny' stories?
16:41:10  <Rubidium> yes
16:41:13  <Rubidium> new 'funny' story
16:42:05  <Rubidium> we got a SAN/NAS with iSCSI. One machine was sharing a iSCSI volume, but started borking. So he mounted that same volume on another machine and shared that as well
16:42:38  <Rubidium> since DNS often fails in the company, many use hardcoded IP addresses, so replacing the drive letter doesn't migrate everyone
16:42:42  <Rubidium> anyhow...
16:42:56  <Rubidium> now two machines are sharing the same disk/partition
16:43:02  <Rubidium> using a file system that does NOT support that
16:43:04  <planetmaker> "nice"
16:43:50  <Rubidium> causes interesting things like: "I can't find the file, are you sure you put it there?" "Yes, I can just see it. I'll come to you to show it... heh, it's not there... but it is"
16:44:06  <planetmaker> lovely
16:44:15  <planetmaker> makes sure that work time is well-spent
16:44:18  <andythenorth> sysunadmin
16:44:53  <planetmaker> chmod a-rwx /dev/that-sysadin ;-)
16:45:38  <Rubidium> luckily when I mentioned it he rejected my initial assumption because the iSCSI software let him do it. So I aggregrated some forum posts and well... he wanted to have an explanation of those posts
16:46:12  <Rubidium> he really has no idea what's going on there
16:46:51  <Rubidium> likewise he had space issues and saw a lot of space was used by SQL. Took him only 10 months to notice that I didn't remove the SQL backups after 14 days anymore ;)
16:46:58  <Alberth> and you didn't say you apparently have less understanding than him, so maybe he should explain it to you? :p
16:47:36  <Rubidium> well... concurrency is hard to grasp
16:48:03  <Alberth> so is when to quit calling yourself an admin, apparently :p
16:50:55  <Rubidium> someone else is responsible for some other system where we see quite irrational numbers (not in the mathematical sense), but still... GPS locations like 20000, 4000 (or -15, 15 for measurements in the NL). This together with a millimeter counter that gets in the 2**32 range in the final data (which in real measurements only happens after 4000 km of measurements in a day; it resets every day and is a mm counter)
16:51:54  <Rubidium> anyhow... yet another system sends data to that system and in the logs of both systems we can see that the data sent and received is plausible. Yet, the main suspision for this problem is a loose wire between both systems
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16:56:54  <Alberth> or between the GPS and the other systems, although that wouldn't mess up the mm counter, I guess
17:00:15  <Rubidium> nah, up to the system everything seems okay. Even in the logs that show the input from the system that messes everything up
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17:19:24  <Brot6> xussrset: update from r1040 to r1042 done (4 warnings) -
17:20:58  <Brot6> firs: compile of r3753 failed -
17:23:19  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6074: Allow copying master language updates from RM to eints XAlberthX @
17:24:55  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6080: Allow copying translation updates from the repo to eints XAlberthX @
17:26:49  <Alberth> frosch123: could you look at above issues, and please tell me if and/or how the results are wrong?
17:28:09  <frosch123> target version "next" sounds awesome :)
17:28:32  <Alberth> invention by andy
17:31:55  <frosch123> 6074 looks correct
17:32:03  <andythenorth> I didn't invent it :P
17:32:08  <andythenorth> I stole it
17:32:10  <frosch123> 6080 can't be better as long as step 4 involves uploading a whole file
17:32:52  <frosch123> is to possible to upload a incomplete translation? i.e. a file only containing TEXT2 and TEXT4 ?
17:34:35  <frosch123> s/to/it/
17:34:35  <Brot6> frosch123 meant: "is it possible to upload a incomplete translation? i.e. a file only containing TEXT2 and TEXT4 ?"
17:35:15  <Alberth> how would that help?
17:35:55  <frosch123> i would take the commit diff, delete everything but "+" lines, remove the "+" column, prepend the ## lines, and upload that
17:36:50  <frosch123> that would change all strings which changed in the repo, but keep everything else unchanged
17:36:52  <Alberth> yeah something like that, but what in the result would change
17:37:17  <frosch123> TEXT3
17:37:33  <andythenorth> hmm
17:37:33  <frosch123> TEXT 3 should be "modfied base transl"
17:37:43  <frosch123> oh, it is
17:38:01  <frosch123> sorry, i did not take a look at the picture
17:38:09  <frosch123> i thought the text said evverything :)
17:38:25  <frosch123> i think the behaviour is correct then
17:38:27  <Alberth> sorry for not being awake enough yesterday to add the final result immediately
17:38:48  <frosch123> how does it actually work?
17:39:01  <frosch123> do you detect what strings changed between uploads?
17:39:10  <Alberth> not really
17:39:41  <Alberth> when you change a string, it keeps the old copy around for some time (up to some finite max number of strings)
17:39:43  <frosch123> why does the upload not change TEXT3 to "unchanged base transl"?
17:40:38  <Alberth> when you upload a file I verify whether the string already exists. if so, I don't make it the new version, unless you force it by adding a check flag
17:40:52  <frosch123> hmm, that sounds cool
17:41:02  <frosch123> allows independent offline editign, right?
17:41:23  <Alberth> should work, I think
17:41:33  <Alberth> except you want a better file format
17:42:30  <frosch123> well, i think both 6074 and 6080 are fine then :)
17:42:53  <Alberth> file upload is mostly intended for project owners for messing up strings in large quantities :)
17:43:49  <Alberth> ok, I was hoping that it would work :)
17:44:56  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6074 (Closed): Allow copying master language updates from RM to eints XAlberthX @
17:44:56  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6080 (Closed): Allow copying translation updates from the repo to eints XAlberthX @
17:44:56  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6074 (Closed): Allow copying master language updates from RM to eints XAlberthX @
17:44:56  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6080 (Closed): Allow copying translation updates from the repo to eints XAlberthX @
17:45:17  <Alberth> hmm, no "not a bug" button :p
17:45:37  * andythenorth ponders
17:46:33  <Alberth> 50% of the bugs fixed :)
17:47:49  <planetmaker> hm, looks nice
17:49:03  <planetmaker> Alberth, "not a bug" is named "rejected"
17:57:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth, do you have anything to push to firs right now?
17:58:15  <planetmaker> I think I found the culprit why FIRS didn't build with the change I commited...
17:58:27  <planetmaker> stupid really: commit doesn't mean that the server updates its checkout :-)
18:08:25  <planetmaker> hm, that's nice... never used it before really. kate has a 'sort selected text' function. good for FIRS' new strings :D
18:08:43  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have nothing right now
18:08:54  <andythenorth> just change some whitespace or something :)
18:09:00  <andythenorth> biab
18:09:51  <planetmaker> I'll simply commit the station name changes :-)
18:11:34  <Alberth> oh, like the  :<start-line>, <end-line> ! sort  command in vim, except vim allows any unix command instead of just sort :)
18:19:41  <planetmaker> :-)
18:20:31  <planetmaker> vim is nice for small tasks... but too cryptic to me to be my main code editor
18:24:25  <Alberth> hmm, you're probably in the better position, I hate all the other editors, as they all seem to use such cumbersome ways to edit text :)
18:25:20  <planetmaker> :-) kate has a "vi input mode" :P
18:26:08  <planetmaker> I never tried it though
18:26:20  <Alberth> yeah, but then I type stuff like  :% s/\([a-z]*\)  *//g     and it jumps
18:28:14  <planetmaker> :-) Ok, so ... doesn't exactly work?
18:28:18  <Alberth> or even a simple  :r!ls  to get the directory listing in the editor
18:29:08  <Alberth> no idea, but I usually need less than an hour to find a sequence that fails to work :)
18:30:02  <planetmaker> :-)
18:31:52  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3754:cf91ad3e143f: Docs: improve markdown formatting for 0.... XandythenorthX @
18:31:57  <planetmaker> good thing is: there's one editor for everyone :-)
18:34:45  <Brot6> firs: update from r3746 to r3754 done (30 warnings) -
18:34:50  <Brot6> firs: update from r3748 to r3754 done (30 warnings) -
18:35:11  <planetmaker> seems to work :-)
18:35:40  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3755:b48f79f772ec: Feature #6143: Nearby station names for ... XplanetmakerX @
18:35:40  <planetmaker> station names submitted
18:35:47  <frosch123> \p/
18:36:09  <planetmaker> looks like translations need an update now :-P
18:37:05  <andythenorth> la la la
18:37:09  <andythenorth> we should get a translator app
18:37:13  <andythenorth>
18:37:16  <andythenorth>
18:37:21  <andythenorth> ^ markdown source
18:37:25  <andythenorth> then rendered html
18:37:26  <andythenorth> likey?
18:37:36  <Brot6> firs: compile of r3755 failed -
18:37:47  <planetmaker> hm
18:37:50  <andythenorth> bah
18:38:04  <andythenorth> oic
18:38:05  <planetmaker> bugger
18:38:08  <planetmaker> my mistake
18:38:15  <andythenorth> compile before commit? :)
18:38:51  <planetmaker> I *think* I compiled. But I might have made that change afterwards :-P
18:39:27  <planetmaker> error looks strange
18:39:47  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3756:5fc64e9299a6: Docs: improve markdown formatting for 0.... XandythenorthX @
18:39:47  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3757:690c77076443: merge XandythenorthX @
18:41:06  <andythenorth> incidentally
18:41:33  <Brot6> firs: compile of r3757 failed -
18:41:44  <planetmaker> lol :-)
18:41:51  <planetmaker> well. They got a much more generic name
18:42:03  <planetmaker> like 'Old Townhall'
18:44:27  <planetmaker> seems I simply missed that industry and indeed removed those strings w/o re-compile. oh well :-) easy fix
18:44:39  <planetmaker> orchard will get 'Horse market' as station name :-P
18:44:55  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - Revision 179:03483a53488e: Change: [compiler] Use openSUSE 12.3 (Ammler) XplanetmakerX @
18:44:55  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - Revision 180:e7c2f9000979: Add: [mercurial] check for repositories in backup.s... XplanetmakerX @
18:44:55  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - Revision 181:cb5ed1bc372f: Add: [mercurial] google-analytics.diff (Ammler) XplanetmakerX @
18:45:20  <planetmaker> that is *very* slow now :-P ^
18:45:29  <Alberth> andythenorth: using text as input format is always useful :)   I use restructured text for that
18:45:45  <andythenorth> I considered rst
18:45:50  <andythenorth> but markdown was easy :P
18:46:03  <Alberth> it's more wiki-ish :)
18:46:26  <frosch123> wasn
18:46:31  <andythenorth> also "all the cool kids use markdown"
18:46:43  <frosch123> 't it andy who said: why wiki if you can use plain html?
18:46:43  <andythenorth> due to github
18:46:50  <andythenorth> and I want to keep up with the cool kids
18:47:06  <andythenorth> can I paste html into forums?
18:47:52  * andythenorth can't be bothered to test :P
18:47:56  <andythenorth> doesn't matter
18:48:57  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3758:e5e3b0c429ee: Fix (r3755:b48f79f772ec): Missed two ind... XplanetmakerX @
18:50:56  * andythenorth runs a 3 min FIRS build again :D
18:51:50  <Brot6> firs: update from r3754 to r3758 done (30 warnings) -
18:52:44  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #6161 (Closed): Convert changelog to markdown XandythenorthX @
18:52:54  <andythenorth> so where would you expect to find a link to changelog in here?
18:53:03  <andythenorth> under 'Download' ?
18:53:09  <andythenorth> in global navigation (short of space there)
18:53:49  <andythenorth> under "4. What's Next?"
18:59:19  <planetmaker> hm... difficult
19:00:10  <andythenorth> I think under "1. Download FIRS"
19:00:20  <planetmaker> yeah... possibly
19:00:30  <andythenorth> ottd puts changelog near download link
19:00:32  <andythenorth> good enough
19:00:35  <planetmaker> A button labelled "What's new?"
19:00:50  <planetmaker> or simply "Changelog"
19:00:58  <planetmaker> possibly best naming ;-)
19:02:31  <planetmaker> you really have excellent documentation for that set
19:04:45  <planetmaker> the ingame readme is not automatically generated, no?
19:05:00  <andythenorth> hmm
19:05:16  <andythenorth> it has a few templated things
19:05:20  <andythenorth> but no autogeneration
19:05:40  <andythenorth> I cut most of it out and linked to online docs
19:05:45  <andythenorth> easier to maintain
19:06:00  <planetmaker> I see, yeah
19:06:49  <planetmaker> I actually wonder what parts I can and should add to the project template, to make-nml
19:07:22  <planetmaker> I guess it requires to write the code in the whole template way you did...
19:07:41  <planetmaker> which is a big change
19:08:19  <Alberth> extend nml to generate docs :p
19:08:30  <planetmaker> :D
19:09:23  <andythenorth> templating stuff like this is quite easy
19:09:35  <andythenorth> it just requires some choices :P
19:09:53  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #5990 (Closed): Docs - add changelog link XandythenorthX @
19:09:53  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3759:3e729ea8bf11: Docs: add changelog link to Get Started ... XandythenorthX @
19:11:03  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3760:942bb2e4266a: Docs: format the markdown wrapper templa... XandythenorthX @
19:11:38  <andythenorth> hmm
19:12:30  <Brot6> firs: update from r3758 to r3759 done (30 warnings) -
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19:15:51  <Brot6> firs: update from r3759 to r3760 done (30 warnings) -
19:18:16  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3761:dbd6ed6a66f9: Docs: make changelog its own section of ... XandythenorthX @
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19:20:58  <Brot6> firs: update from r3760 to r3761 done (30 warnings) -
19:21:27  <andythenorth> changelog got its own section with nav in sidebar
19:24:37  <andythenorth> planetmaker: new names are definitely more fun
19:24:44  <andythenorth> duno what the foamers will think of them :)
19:25:13  <andythenorth> 'Portland' is an odd one
19:25:50  <planetmaker> maybe... maybe it should be something something like docks. Or alike
19:25:56  <planetmaker> or quay
19:26:19  <andythenorth> Quay
19:26:27  <andythenorth> wharves
19:26:28  <andythenorth> pier
19:26:35  <andythenorth> waterfront
19:26:41  <andythenorth> harbour
19:26:43  <andythenorth> are all nice
19:26:52  <andythenorth> I am favouring a list :D
19:28:36  <andythenorth> we just need an OTTD dev to extend newgrf for us ;)
19:28:37  <andythenorth> is all
19:31:53  <planetmaker> :-)
19:32:35  * Alberth wonders how nml will get additional functionality
19:33:09  <andythenorth> in absence of devs?
19:33:31  <planetmaker> yes...
19:33:39  <andythenorth> well
19:33:48  <andythenorth> maybe we hope some devs come back? o_O
19:33:56  <Alberth> you claimed "we just need an OTTD dev to extend newgrf"  ;)
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19:34:35  <Alberth> so nml extension would be done by magic, which is most interesting :D
19:34:43  <andythenorth> if it's a CB, it is pretty simple
19:34:48  <andythenorth> properties I haven't looked
19:35:03  <planetmaker> properties are easier than this callback, I'd think
19:35:05  <Brot6> DevZone Help Center - Membership #6170 (New): Applying for project: TREE AI XzooksX @
19:35:23  <Alberth> s/TREE/THREE/ ?  :)
19:35:23  <Brot6> Alberth: You did something wrong... Try s/you/me/ or tell me "help sed"
19:35:25  <andythenorth> I extended nml support for cb 15F when it was added
19:35:31  <andythenorth> although that cb was pretty simple
19:35:39  <zooks> na it plants trees ;)
19:36:08  <Alberth> weird way to run a profitable company :)
19:36:28  <zooks> its an environmentalist AI
19:36:38  <andythenorth> call it treehugger
19:36:55  <planetmaker> zooks, ai-tree as URL? Would be consistent with other AIs here
19:37:09  <planetmaker> hehe, ai-treehugger is nice :D
19:37:30  <planetmaker> zooks, you might want to make that a game script maybe?
19:37:49  <zooks> where would a gamescript get the money?
19:37:50  <Alberth> we need support for multiple GSes :)
19:38:02  <zooks> planetmaker, ai-tree is fine
19:38:05  <Alberth> GSes don't need money
19:38:05  <planetmaker> zooks, god mode. no money required, I'd guess?
19:38:12  <andythenorth> Alberth but how to be sure they are orthogonal?
19:38:28  <andythenorth> or just don't worry about that?
19:38:46  <zooks> since when can a GS build in god-mode?
19:38:56  <Alberth> andythenorth: assume the user knows what he's doing :)
19:39:08  <Alberth> zooks: since its birth
19:39:09  <andythenorth> Alberth: all this experience, and still you ignore the evidence :)
19:39:13  <planetmaker> zooks, since their introduction
19:39:33  <andythenorth> mm
19:39:37  <planetmaker> it's a game script. It's god
19:39:42  <andythenorth> extending grfcodec is probably the harder problem than nml?
19:39:43  <Alberth> andythenorth: as long as I am not bothered about it, /me doesn't care much
19:39:49  <planetmaker> it can only also mimic anyone else
19:39:56  <zooks> hmm, I missed that. I though for it to e.g. delete houses it needs to have a company-id
19:40:25  <planetmaker> not as game script
19:41:03  <Alberth> grfcodec is a bigger challenge as it's C (?) but a smaller challenge as it only does hex numbers
19:41:19  <andythenorth> we need some apprentices
19:41:38  <Alberth> preferably ones that do what we want
19:41:41  <andythenorth> ideally ones who don't need training :P
19:42:03  <planetmaker> I think both can be done relatively easy, extending grfcodec and NML with a new callback or property to an existing feature
19:42:03  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/ai-tree registered in Redmine with url /home/hg/ai-tree
19:42:03  <Brot6> repository /home/hg/ai-tree created
19:42:04  <andythenorth> wanted: competent developers to do our bidding.  Wages: none
19:42:07  <Alberth> but they are rare unless you pay lots of money :)
19:42:10  <planetmaker> ^ there you go, zooks
19:42:14  <andythenorth> hey, maybe we could give them equity? o_O
19:42:24  <planetmaker>
19:42:35  <andythenorth> give them 30% of shares of nml
19:42:38  <andythenorth> winner
19:42:48  <Alberth> :D
19:43:00  <zooks> planetmaker, thanks. Maybe it is indeed suited better as a GS, when multiple GS are possible in the future though
19:43:10  <Alberth> techies don't care much for money :p
19:43:44  <planetmaker> zooks, not sure there'll ever be several GS. But it might be feasible to make them somewhat modular
19:43:51  <Alberth> zooks: that's not decided at all, I just stated it here as a wanted extension
19:44:00  <andythenorth> actually I file station name lists under 'meh'
19:44:08  <Alberth> but there are a zillion such extensions
19:44:28  <andythenorth> more code to maintain, more docs, more discussion, more spec, more...stuff
19:44:33  <andythenorth> tmwftlb
19:44:39  <andythenorth> next idea? :P
19:44:43  <planetmaker> lol
19:44:44  <Alberth> it would be nice if you could hook the town names into it
19:45:21  <andythenorth> in which direction?
19:45:32  <andythenorth> it does get the town name from the industry already
19:45:43  <Alberth> construct station names like town names
19:46:24  <zooks> I understood that, though it would be nice to have things like towncars and trees handled by gamescripts instead of cheating AIs.
19:46:28  <planetmaker> hm, extending townname newgrfs with station names?
19:46:42  <planetmaker> zooks, yes. I think we all agree there :-)
19:47:27  <planetmaker> I'm not too much involved in scripts nor AIs... but I've the feeling it would need GS libraries :-)
19:47:46  <Alberth> why do you want to plant trees btw, most people think we have too many of them already
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19:49:01  * planetmaker is one of those people
19:49:02  <zooks> it plants less
19:49:13  <planetmaker> how can it plant less? Bulldoze?
19:49:24  <zooks> no, you disable tree growth as setting
19:49:36  <planetmaker> ah
19:49:38  <zooks> then you specify the amount of trees the ai builds
19:49:40  <Alberth> and it almost works :p
19:50:36  <Alberth> ah ok, a work around to extending the openttd code itself thus
19:50:57  <Alberth> good night
19:51:00  <zooks> indeed
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19:51:45  <zooks> example:
19:52:39  <planetmaker> :-)
19:53:04  <andythenorth> what I _could_ do - instead of inventing new spec items....
19:53:08  <planetmaker> indeed you could also try t o change openttd code itself. A tree growth algorithm which keeps some free land would be nice imho
19:53:11  <andythenorth> finish content for the spec we already have :P
19:53:31  <andythenorth> but 'new' is much more exciting
19:53:37  <zooks> I think there was a patch for that at some point
19:53:40  <planetmaker> and which pays special attention to forest huts
19:53:47  <planetmaker> was there? was it good?
19:54:05  <zooks> I cannot remember :-)
19:54:17  <zooks> I'm not even sure there was tbh
19:54:20  <planetmaker> hehe, andythenorth, yes :-)
19:54:38  <andythenorth> oh
19:54:44  <andythenorth> we should have played a test FIRS game by now :P
19:54:48  <andythenorth> I need to test this economy
19:54:56  <planetmaker> I don't recall such patch... but well, that has little meaning wrt its existence
19:55:09  <planetmaker> I've some time this week
19:55:25  <andythenorth> I have Friday perhaps
19:55:31  <andythenorth> other days not :(
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19:55:37  <planetmaker> ok, Friday
19:56:08  <andythenorth> :)
19:56:15  <andythenorth> it takes that long to prep a savegame anyway
19:59:25  <andythenorth> herp
19:59:27  <andythenorth> gimp :(
19:59:37  <planetmaker> what about it?
20:00:41  <planetmaker> get 2.8 and use one-window mode, if you're lost in its many windows
20:00:56  <andythenorth> yeah I have that
20:01:01  <planetmaker> (I got used to the many, though)
20:01:03  <andythenorth> buttons don't look buttons :)
20:01:11  <andythenorth> and the file browser is bonkers
20:01:12  <andythenorth> but nvm
20:01:13  <Brot6> Treehugging AI - Revision 0:a1f30fb31883: initialise repository XzooksX @
20:01:14  <andythenorth> job done
20:01:14  <planetmaker> he
20:01:32  <planetmaker> why do you use gimp anyway? Aren't you a photoshop user?
20:03:10  <andythenorth> coxx sent me a .xcf
20:03:13  <andythenorth> needed to export it
20:03:57  <planetmaker> vice versa the problem does not exist ;-)
20:04:23  <planetmaker> isn't there like a plug-in for that?
20:05:21  <planetmaker> granted, for opengfx+landscape, all the repo has are xcf files. With a few remaining exceptions
20:06:30  <andythenorth> installign gimp was quicker than trawling the web for plugins ;)
20:06:35  <planetmaker> :-)
20:06:42  <andythenorth> using gimp...hmmm...less so
20:06:43  <andythenorth> but worked
20:07:31  <planetmaker> the more you use it, the better it gets :-P
20:10:50  <Brot6> fish: update from r1041 to r1042 done (8 warnings) -
20:10:57  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 1042:3a16a5869eb7: Change: graphics for Little Cumbrae Freighter (coxx) - known issu... XandythenorthX @
20:17:50  <Brot6> FISH - Revision 1043:c6931bd90f8a: Change: two graphical variations for Little Cumbrae Freighter XandythenorthX @
20:17:57  <Brot6> fish: update from r1042 to r1043 done (8 warnings) -
20:17:57  * andythenorth needs to convert FISH 2 to better methods :P
20:18:14  <planetmaker> :-)
20:18:14  <andythenorth> why ever release, when you can rewrite the code endlessly? o_O
20:18:45  <planetmaker> I ponder for some time if I just should push tag 1.0.0 to ogfx-landscape
20:18:54  <planetmaker> and deal with the small missing stuff as people find it :-P
20:19:00  <andythenorth> 1.0.0 is a pretty good pyschological step
20:19:16  <andythenorth> I am having *much* more fun with FIRS now it's not some kind of obligation
20:19:23  <planetmaker> :-)
20:19:33  <planetmaker> maybe I should do that, too
20:19:49  <andythenorth> hmm
20:19:56  <planetmaker> and with swedishrails... just re-tag ;-)
20:20:00  <planetmaker> and opengfx :-P
20:20:01  * andythenorth considers playing openttd
20:20:17  <planetmaker> but meh... opengfx needs... nml release :S
20:20:28  <andythenorth> actually, should I fix the mud tile for nml?
20:20:53  <andythenorth> do you know the issue (it's subjective)
20:21:26  <planetmaker> I faintly recall some discussion. but can you please refresh my memory?
20:21:49  <andythenorth> 10s
20:23:11  <andythenorth>
20:23:14  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - 2022.png XandythenorthX @
20:23:19  <andythenorth> I think the ogfx version just lacks character
20:24:21  <andythenorth> but it's very subjective
20:24:38  <planetmaker> as in missing the tracks?
20:24:44  <zooks> planetmaker,
20:24:45  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums View topic - [patch] trees growth reduced (at
20:24:46  <planetmaker> it's... well, muddy
20:24:57  <andythenorth> yes, tracks are very faint
20:25:00  <andythenorth> they are there I think
20:26:40  <planetmaker> so what to do, if one doesn't want a blunt copy?
20:27:30  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - mud.png XandythenorthX @
20:28:03  <andythenorth> original base set also has more difference between 'mud' and 'cleared land'
20:28:08  <andythenorth> ogfx not so much
20:28:18  <andythenorth> I dunno
20:28:27  <planetmaker> that fits with TTD, yes. But with OpenGFX? opengfx uses the same sprite even, I think
20:28:29  <andythenorth> fixing this won't stop people moaning about CHIPS
20:28:36  <andythenorth> maybe it's not the right thing to do
20:29:31  <planetmaker> I would not mind a change. But it need be convincing. And be in-character with OpenGFX
20:30:03  <planetmaker> as my playground for groundtiles I have anyway opengfx+landscape ;-)
20:30:28  <planetmaker> easier changed there than in opengfx
20:30:38  <andythenorth> hmm
20:30:41  <andythenorth> maybe we leave it be :)
20:30:50  * andythenorth plays openttd for a bit
20:31:17  <planetmaker> I don't say that. But... I need a suggestion :-) I assume you showed me ttd and opengfx tiles - not other firs tiles, yes?
20:31:52  <andythenorth> yes, just base set
20:31:57  <andythenorth> the real issue comes with CHIPS
20:32:01  <andythenorth> (try it...)
20:32:35  <planetmaker> yeah... the muddy ground tiles
20:32:48  <planetmaker> but... can't it reference the base set's sprites?
20:32:53  <andythenorth> stations can't
20:32:59  <planetmaker> and compose the tile layout...? oh drat
20:33:03  <planetmaker> bloody stations
20:33:08  <andythenorth> bloody stations
20:33:23  <planetmaker> *that*s a feature request :-)
20:33:27  <andythenorth> it also causes issue with wider or narrower railtypes
20:33:37  <andythenorth> because the 'ground' is an overlay :P
20:33:55  <planetmaker> how does that cause issues?
20:35:29  <planetmaker> (sorry, I'm not much into station specs... I avoided them so far as much as I could)
20:41:22  <andythenorth> so to match 'mud' I have to draw 'mud'
20:41:23  <andythenorth> oh
20:41:34  <andythenorth> one solution would be to simply stop using the base set mud tile for FIRS :)
20:41:42  <andythenorth> didn't consider that properly
20:41:50  <andythenorth> FIRS doesn't use base set concrete, cobble etc
20:44:18  <andythenorth> problem goes away
20:44:36  <planetmaker> hm. Maybe
20:44:52  <planetmaker> still, I believe that stations should be able to reference base set sprites...
20:45:21  <planetmaker> it sounds to me like a big missing feature for that ... feature
20:45:48  <andythenorth> I am +1 to that
20:45:59  <andythenorth> well they can reference base set sprites fine
20:46:14  <andythenorth> but they can't use it for ground
20:46:21  <andythenorth> on track tiles
20:47:20  <planetmaker> sounds stupid limitation. probably there's some reason for it... probably as that track tiles themselves are ground and that there are no track-only sprites for default railtypes
20:47:48  <andythenorth> it's simply the order of drawing iirc
20:48:09  <andythenorth> which is necessitated by what you just said
20:49:10  <planetmaker> I wonder whether that can be... changed. To drawing the overlay sprites instead. or something
20:49:12  <planetmaker> hm...
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20:50:57  <planetmaker> he, looking at toyland... some of those industry ground tiles have more character than the default mud
20:51:59  <andythenorth> :)
20:57:34  <planetmaker> aha... that explains it... I simply forgot to generate and replace road sprites in toyland...
21:03:05  <planetmaker> hm... triggers re-generation of all road and rail sprites...
21:03:51  <planetmaker> biggest advantage of gimp 2.8 over 2.6 is that it doesn't crash anymore when run in parallel in batch jobs
21:13:49  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Landscape - Revision 226:179b872856a1: Feature: Gridless roads in toyland climate XplanetmakerX @
21:14:12  <planetmaker> ^ cheap solution. I wonder if anyone will notice
21:14:28  <planetmaker> it's not toyland roads. But re-used tropical ones. They differ somewhat. But not too much
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21:16:43  <andythenorth> should be fine
21:17:17  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Landscape - Bug #3234 (Closed): alignment of arctic tracks XplanetmakerX @
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21:50:52  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Landscape - Feature #3306 (Closed): waves around wind turbine base when placed on water XplanetmakerX @
21:50:52  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Landscape - Revision 227:333e17e55cd6: Feature #3306: Swell around off-shore wind turbines XplanetmakerX @
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