Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 26th September 2013:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
05:52:29  *** George has quit IRC
05:56:14  *** George has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
07:02:51  *** zooks has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
07:37:41  *** George has quit IRC
07:44:41  *** zooks has quit IRC
09:09:54  *** oskari89 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
11:31:32  *** Supercheese has quit IRC
11:32:04  *** Supercheese has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
12:12:50  *** V453000 is now known as i
12:13:14  *** i is now known as V453000
12:15:17  *** DevZone has quit IRC
12:16:33  *** DevZone has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
12:52:12  *** DevZone has quit IRC
12:52:54  *** DevZone has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
13:33:51  *** oskari892 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
13:40:36  *** oskari89 has quit IRC
15:04:29  *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
16:44:02  *** phatmatt has quit IRC
16:44:02  *** Yexo has quit IRC
16:44:02  *** planetmaker has quit IRC
16:45:26  *** planetmaker has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
16:45:26  *** phatmatt has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
16:45:26  *** Yexo has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
17:18:43  <DevZone> Project NML - NewGRF Meta Language build #64-nightlies: SUCCESS in 1 min 3 sec:
17:54:29  *** frosch123 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
18:15:43  <oskari892> It seems repo working has been slowing down lately
18:15:56  <oskari892> There's much lag
18:16:53  <oskari892> Have somebody else noticed that?
18:17:26  *** oskari892 is now known as oskari89
18:17:41  <frosch123> noone comitted anything today
18:17:47  <frosch123> who should have noticed?
18:17:47  *** andythenorth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
18:23:13  *** George has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
18:44:13  <oskari89> I have committed
18:44:33  <oskari89> DevZone bot has been silent though
18:44:58  <andythenorth> it's a bit less chatty these days
18:46:38  <V453000> it was taught to stfu
18:56:35  <Taede> brot does the commits, devzone only does jenkins compile-stuff
18:56:40  <Taede> brot has been absent for a while
19:03:38  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX build #39-nightlies: SUCCESS in 5 min 59 sec:
19:07:31  <juzza1> hey andythenorth. i noticed the chips concrete is different ingame than in the source, is this intentional?
19:16:01  <andythenorth> juzza1: I don't understand how it can be different from source?
19:16:08  <andythenorth> the grf is compiled from source....
19:18:18  <andythenorth> oic
19:18:51  <andythenorth> that's not the concrete tile
19:19:13  <andythenorth> it's a concrete slabs tile, which I got bored of drawing
19:19:21  <andythenorth> the game uses the tile from the base set
19:19:35  <andythenorth> but ogfx doesn't provide a proper sprite for that tile, so you get concrete
19:20:03  <planetmaker> meaning: could be your chance to make one which fits opengfx ;-)
19:20:47  <andythenorth> you're accepting contributions? :P
19:20:54  <planetmaker> :D
19:21:10  <planetmaker> I pretend to. And reject them all. Usually
19:21:12  <andythenorth> there's the one already linked - lower row here
19:21:25  <andythenorth> I got bored of it ;P
19:21:59  <planetmaker> as said... it would need fit OpenGFX. I'm not sure that one does. But I might need to see it in context. Though... I don't see how the upper one is worse. It's different for sure
19:23:17  <planetmaker> what I want really is: a default OpenTTD install looking as good as possible
19:23:36  <planetmaker> Lots can be done there. But everyone... does newgrf, thus add-ons :-)
19:24:07  <andythenorth> we should just buy a license to the original sprites :X
19:24:13  <planetmaker> yes
19:24:14  <andythenorth> for christmas
19:24:21  <planetmaker> well. why?
19:24:23  <andythenorth> I wonder how much the non-existent owner would charge :P
19:26:00  <planetmaker> a license is not good enough. It needs to be a CC-BY or equivalent
19:27:35  <planetmaker> something which allows to make derivatives and which allows re-distribution
19:28:29  <planetmaker> anyway, this whining discussion is ultra-boring and the upteenths repitition of old ones
19:28:49  *** planetmaker has left #openttdcoop.devzone
19:28:56  *** planetmaker has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
19:31:09  <planetmaker> but this forced compatibility with the TTD baseset makes it also extra hard to modify the game to improved defaults
19:35:18  <andythenorth> what would you like to see improved?
19:40:30  <planetmaker> Many of the OpenGFX graphics, especially houses, are a bit too noise, too much greeble for my taste
19:40:37  <planetmaker> *noisy
19:40:55  <planetmaker> the love for detail is lacking in a lot of sprites
19:41:22  <andythenorth> yes
19:41:29  <andythenorth> the massive positive is that at least they got done
19:41:46  <planetmaker> yes. Same as with zbase. it's done. And now everything rots
19:41:47  *** ODM has quit IRC
19:41:52  <planetmaker> both, OpenGFX and zbase
19:42:04  <planetmaker> they're not 'official'. Thus no-one cares
19:42:17  <Supercheese> I doubt I'll ever not use the TTD base set
19:42:20  <planetmaker> but we officially distribute 1/6 of the TTD base set
19:42:34  <planetmaker> which is actually quite cynical. As we may not distribute that
19:42:38  <Supercheese> zBase is cute, but not my style
19:42:54  <planetmaker> the logical thing would be to remove that. And actually commit opengfx and possibly zbase
19:43:00  <planetmaker> and opensfx
19:43:08  <planetmaker> and make TTD a NewGRF for those who like
19:43:10  <Supercheese> TTD base set has the huge nostalgia factor as well
19:43:51  <V453000> to be entirely honest, I think there is nobody around able (not even discussing anybody Willing) to draw so well to make a set of quality anywhere comparable to ttd base set
19:44:05  <Supercheese> also ^ that
19:44:30  <V453000> at the same time I personally cant say I am not considering to ever make a base set or build on opengfx, but so far only as "sometime in the future"
19:44:36  <planetmaker> V453000, I don't think that's true. You. Andy, FooBar, Pikka. DanMacK, etc... You all are great artists
19:45:14  <planetmaker> and imho the motivation is different if openttd would be a "complete" game with graphics
19:45:19  <V453000> not for all kinds of objects pm, I for example can draw only trains, and even then my graphical style is very inconsistent, which is quite a problem with base set
19:45:22  <planetmaker> instead of saying "I don't care"
19:45:31  <V453000> that is kind of true
19:45:42  <planetmaker> V453000, sure. But there's an artist for everything, just not one for everything
19:46:09  <V453000> I do not dare to believe in team effort
19:46:22  <planetmaker> openttd itself is one. it kinda works
19:47:02  <V453000> same as with opengfx/zbase. Zephyris did vast majority, one person gets motivation, one person does. Same as with everything else in this world I think
19:47:09  <V453000>  /openttd world :)
19:47:17  <planetmaker> well, ye
19:47:30  <andythenorth> it would be worth doing for 2x sprites
19:47:46  <andythenorth> as per latest polish screenshot (danmack just linked it, we're talking about it for IH)
19:47:47  <planetmaker> well. can be done. Anyone up to it?
19:47:49  <V453000> I dont think that is worth bothering at all andy
19:48:07  <planetmaker> Actually it quite looks like it's worth it to me
19:48:25  <andythenorth> I think it's worth it
19:48:29  <andythenorth> the motivation is the problem
19:48:33  <V453000> I would put x1 at much higher usefulness and thus priority :) but of course any effort is good
19:48:44  <andythenorth> the most appealing thing about the game to me is the Simon Foster landscape
19:48:55  <andythenorth> so replacing it removes one of my favourite things about the game :P
19:49:14  <andythenorth> it's hard to motivate myself for ~2 years of work on that basis :)
19:49:14  <planetmaker> landscape sprites is the most important thing. up to 95% of what you see is landscape
19:49:36  <V453000> cough and tracks? :(
19:49:39  <V453000> everywhere? :P
19:49:45  <andythenorth> not in my games :P
19:49:49  <planetmaker> in coop games, yes :-P
19:49:58  <planetmaker> tracks and roads are 2nd most important thing
19:50:00  <andythenorth> I have progressively used fewer and fewer landscape modifying grfs
19:50:00  <planetmaker> then houses
19:50:07  <planetmaker> then industries and vehicles
19:50:37  * andythenorth wonders what SF is doing now
19:50:44  <andythenorth> maybe we could do a kickstarter to fund him
19:52:01  <planetmaker> knowing the problems, I'd also start to annoy newgrf authors. And add trams. And horses and early vehicles. And very late ones
19:52:16  <planetmaker> those who update theirs simply would also disable those new ones
19:52:40  <planetmaker> or on might add a button "disable defaults" at the newgrf selection dialogue
19:52:51  <V453000> hm
19:53:03  * andythenorth once considered reimplementing the basic industries as a grf
19:53:05  <planetmaker> for each category (trains, rv, planes, helis, ships, houses, industries...)
19:53:11  <andythenorth> and asking for much of industry.cpp to be deleted :P
19:53:33  <planetmaker> aka opengfx+industries? :D
19:53:41  <andythenorth> o_O exactly
19:53:57  <andythenorth> 'eat your own dogfood' approach
19:54:09  <V453000> yo ogfx+ industries add a lot to the game dont bash my fav industry set :)
19:55:33  <planetmaker> anyway, with such a button it would allow to provide more defaults for the game
19:55:35  <V453000> anyway, what would look more universal and stupid-arguments-about-what-or-how-to-add-things, I think it would be a better solution to create a category of featured class of newGRFs on bananas
19:56:19  <planetmaker> that's something entirely different
19:56:55  <planetmaker> openttd without additions should rock. And it's ... well... most of the fun can only be added by add-ons
19:57:04  <planetmaker> by newgrfs. which is... a bit sad.
19:57:17  <V453000> I dont think new players are bored at all without newgrfs
19:57:20  <planetmaker> it's very good we have them. But why not have an awesome default game, too?
19:57:30  <V453000> obviously after playing for a year or so newGRFs become the thing
19:57:32  <planetmaker> why not before 1920? Or after 2050?
19:57:46  <planetmaker> why no trams?
19:57:47  <V453000> for one I would expect discussions how to :)
19:57:53  <V453000> e.g. stats
19:58:06  * Supercheese votes for more & better default vehicles
19:58:17  <Supercheese> didn't Pikka-sprites get used for OGFX?
19:58:21  <Supercheese> airplanes*
19:59:00  <V453000> trams would make sense I think
19:59:19  <V453000> trains, perhaps a couple IF someone drew new trains for both ttd base set and opengfx
19:59:55  <V453000> but I still think if those things are to change, it is time to come to discussion of system - e.g. ability to choose between something like train classes
20:00:19  <V453000> perhaps not as complicated and exhausting every game possibility currently known as in nuts, but something
20:00:22  <Supercheese> Yeah, the Pikka-sprites for OGFX airplanes were an excellent addition
20:00:43  <Supercheese> the futur-ish aircraft that are non-Pikka look like trash by comparison
20:00:44  <V453000> and I honestly cant be arsed to discuss those things with "the rest" for quite obvious reasons visible at tt-forums
20:03:25  <andythenorth> it's funny
20:03:38  <andythenorth> now if I want to discuss something, I discuss here
20:03:56  <andythenorth> and with this IH set I totally don't want to discuss in forums at all, 100%
20:04:13  <planetmaker> V453000, that exactly is the point why I think it makes not too much sense to have base sets as plug-in
20:04:20  <planetmaker> it limits what you can do too drastically
20:04:47  <V453000> oh righ
20:04:48  <V453000> hm
20:05:07  <planetmaker> as you have to do every change 2 or 3 times. which sucks
20:06:20  <V453000> what is this limit? global or did I just exceed amount of randoms for 1 item?
20:06:46  <andythenorth> FIRS does that too
20:06:49  <planetmaker> local to the chain
20:06:59  <planetmaker> somewhat
20:07:08  <V453000> so one item probably has too many random switches?
20:07:15  <planetmaker> switches in general
20:07:28  <planetmaker> random or not doesn't matter
20:07:39  <V453000> hm
20:07:40  * andythenorth considers redrawing everything in 2x zoom
20:07:52  <andythenorth> how hard could it be? o_O
20:08:03  <V453000> hm yeah the switch is probably seriously big
20:08:14  <V453000> only one way to find out andy :)
20:08:31  <frosch123> hmm, i wonder whether one should code a grf -> graphviz converter, so one can visualise 123 chains
20:08:46  <frosch123> i still think that nml does something wrong if it hits that limit
20:09:14  <andythenorth> I think it doesn't know how to reuse ids
20:09:22  <frosch123> andythenorth: just zoom everything, and then somewhat recolor it :p
20:09:24  <andythenorth> as any sensible nfo author would :P
20:09:31  <planetmaker> oh, it does re-use ids. But probably not efficient enough
20:09:57  <V453000> well my switch is probably over tens of thousands of lines of code and considering around 30 000 sprites
20:09:59  <V453000> sooo ...
20:10:01  <V453000> no comment :D
20:10:24  <V453000> actually probably even more
20:10:32  <frosch123> V453000: well, i wonder whether it is possible to prove that everything can be done with 2 ids :p
20:10:34  <planetmaker> that doesn't tell too much about the amount of theoretically minimally needed ids :-)
20:10:40  <frosch123> s/prove/proof/
20:10:52  <V453000> I take shitload as mathematically precise answer here pm :D
20:10:52  <planetmaker> prove was right
20:10:57  <planetmaker> I think ;-)
20:11:11  <V453000> it was
20:11:16  <Supercheese> prove is correct
20:11:25  <V453000> but grammar also suggests it can be substituted by beer
20:11:26  <frosch123> it's verb/noun again, right?
20:11:32  <V453000> y
20:11:33  <planetmaker> yes
20:11:36  <V453000>  /beer
20:14:26  <V453000> just removed 19k lines of code XD
20:15:13  <frosch123> sounds familar
20:15:20  <frosch123> i think i did that at work this week
20:15:39  <V453000> XD
20:16:17  <V453000> once upon a time I got an EXCELLENT idea to have C4T engines: 9 loading stages for all cargoes, IN BLOODY 17 cargo schemes - done by sprites
20:16:25  <frosch123> old stuff that wasn't active for 10 years but was stilll lieing around increasing compile time :p
20:16:27  <V453000> now the funny part is that the different colours are barely visible XD
20:16:38  <V453000> shitload of code for basically nothing, only made massive mess
20:16:45  <V453000> time to progressDemolish it :)
20:16:48  <V453000> hehe :) yeah
20:17:15  <frosch123> or rather: old stuff that wasn't active for 10 years, and you would have to make damn sure that nothing of it would get activated in some way :p
20:18:36  <V453000> mhm :)
20:19:37  <V453000> ._. still 47 k lines of code
20:20:33  <V453000> aaaaaand the randomswitch problem persists ... will have to do more digging ... well at least I cleaned up nuts of this thing XD
20:21:19  <frosch123> well, you could try to figure out which switch causes the issue
20:21:37  <frosch123> it's likely that it is not caused by the mass, but a single one which confuses nml
20:22:03  <V453000> I know exactly now
20:22:31  <V453000> just have to remove the randoms manually which is a bit ass :)
20:22:52  <planetmaker> it's not necessarily random...
20:22:54  <V453000> there was 5* amount of cargoes random switches for 1 wagon
20:23:05  <V453000> why does it say [random]switches then :|
20:23:24  <planetmaker> to make clear that it is a switch or randomswitch
20:23:40  <planetmaker> otherwise it'd say simply randomswitch
20:23:55  <planetmaker> and not [random]switch
20:24:14  <V453000> will try to do further cleanup and lets see
20:24:24  <V453000> still have some more cleanup ideas up my sleeve
20:24:28  <planetmaker> it can only be something which you added last
20:24:43  <V453000> I know on which item it is
20:24:59  <V453000> for now I will remove randoms which dont do anything
20:25:13  <planetmaker> that's always a good choice :D
20:25:14  <V453000> then reduce amount of possibilities, 40% could be done differently
20:25:31  <V453000> I have randoms with just 1 output, that way it was easy to expand them when drawing
20:25:55  <V453000> e.g. when I draw steel and realized I want 4 kinds of steel randomly on the wagon, I just added them to the random switch which was already there :)
20:26:01  <V453000> but yeah
20:26:38  <planetmaker> if nml is intelligent that doesn't use up an id :-)
20:28:29  <V453000> XD POLL TIME: Rate how disgustingly awful and evil coding approach it is to call a spritegroup SHIP_FLATBED_random_crates XD
20:29:21  <planetmaker> sounds like what I could have used, too
20:29:22  <frosch123> ship flatbed? sounds like it randomly loses stuff to the tide
20:29:53  <V453000> spritegroup isnt random switch though pm :P
20:30:10  <V453000> those are spritegroups which are then chosen by the random ... originally were :)
20:30:29  <andythenorth> V453000: spritegroup names can be red_green_cat_tree
20:30:36  <andythenorth> don't worry about them :P
20:30:59  <V453000> I wont dont worry XD
20:35:05  <V453000> I hate myself today
20:35:28  <V453000> lets just say I am not having success on every corner of nuts development today XD
20:36:40  <planetmaker> time for early bed to cure the cold. Bye :-)
20:37:19  <V453000> bai
20:38:04  <andythenorth> bloody colds
20:41:08  <V453000> FUCK XD cleanup phase 2 didnt quite cut it
20:41:09  <V453000> XD
20:41:11  <V453000> need moar
20:41:23  <andythenorth> we got more sweary round here
20:41:40  <V453000> asdf
21:08:38  *** oskari89 has quit IRC
21:12:21  <frosch123> night
21:12:25  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:29:45  *** andythenorth has left #openttdcoop.devzone

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk