Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 2nd November 2013:
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06:26:16  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #363-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 50 sec:
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09:17:12  <Alberth> how's the iron horse going?
09:20:37  <andythenorth> up and running
09:20:48  <andythenorth> needs training :P
09:25:34  <Alberth> :)
09:28:25  <DevZone> Project Finnish Rail Infrastructure - Rails build #133-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 38 sec:
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13:49:53  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #388-push: SUCCESS in 41 sec:
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15:37:44  <Alberth> Issue 6504 is considered correct by eints ({P 0 e,e,e} is seen as correct for ##plural 0), because '0' is the first argument, and 'e,e,e' is the second one
15:38:07  <Alberth> apparently, nml interpretes '0' as number instead
15:38:22  <Alberth> planetmaker:  ^
15:38:37  <Alberth> frosch123: ^
15:38:48  <Alberth> so what should be done here?
15:43:06  <frosch123> hmm, we had the same issue with wt3
15:43:26  <frosch123> that is wt3 and strgen treating it differently
15:43:52  <frosch123> we fixed wt3 to match strgen, but i cannot remember which way that was :)
15:44:07  <frosch123> we should make it the same everywhere :)
15:47:43  <Alberth> k, that is testable :)
15:49:18  <Alberth> strgen breaks on {P 0 "stuff"}
15:51:41  <Alberth> but not on {P "0" "stuff"}
15:56:01  <Alberth> and that matches with behaviour of nml
16:30:11  <frosch123> looks good, it's unlikely that a plural form contains a number
16:30:27  <frosch123> so, the majority vote even makes sense :p
16:49:19  <DevZone> Project ISR Industrial Station Renewal build #59-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 43 sec:
17:21:04  <DevZone> Project NML - NewGRF Meta Language build #125-nightlies: SUCCESS in 2 min 58 sec:
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18:06:33  <DevZone> Project Japanese Faces build #3-nightlies: SUCCESS in 26 sec:
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18:15:17  <Alberth> :o more bugs :)
18:21:32  <DevZone> Project Japanese Trains build #5-nightlies: SUCCESS in 25 sec:
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18:23:00  <Alberth> frosch123: pushed a fix and (almost) a fix to the eints repo
18:23:19  <Alberth> or rather, by sheer luck a code change :p
18:23:50  <DevZone> Project eints build #10-nightlies: SUCCESS in 13 sec:
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18:31:22  <frosch123> Alberth: updated server. thanks for the fixes :)
18:32:15  <Alberth> what's the idea behind "Allow more intermediate roles between TRANSLATOR and OWNER" ?
18:32:51  <Alberth> ie feature 6380
18:33:35  <frosch123> allow editing all languages and project settings for manangers
18:33:43  <frosch123> but disallow uploading languages
18:34:10  <frosch123> i started on it, but turned out boring :)
18:34:15  <Alberth> good idea
18:34:26  <Alberth> yes, it's probably very boring :)
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18:40:49  <DevZone> Project Japanese Landscape build #4-nightlies: SUCCESS in 1 min 43 sec:
18:46:58  <Alberth> I guess you should add expected role to the permissions
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19:23:41  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #394-push: SUCCESS in 1 min 48 sec:
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20:04:10  <Alberth> planetmaker:     LATEST is not latest any more
20:05:41  <Alberth>  actually contains 4 versions
20:07:04  <planetmaker> hm, *that* is strange. ty
20:08:47  <Alberth> the red error message was annoying :p
20:08:56  <planetmaker> :-)
20:09:18  <planetmaker> I didn't try to upload again... I actually would like to see it online on bananas...
20:09:26  <planetmaker> need to figure out that, too.
20:09:41  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #398-push: SUCCESS in 40 sec:
20:13:03  <Alberth> hmm, almost 2000 at a 256^2 map, and still not connected all industries :)
20:13:25  <Alberth> cargo flow does create a lot of work :p
20:14:19  <planetmaker> :-) High density maps are hard to fill alone. At least with my play style
20:14:37  <planetmaker> I build some initial network. And then I'm always distracted by seeing things move ;-)
20:17:05  <planetmaker> my playstyle actually requires a daylength factor of at least 4 or 8. Or vehicle introduction rushes past without me having real chance to appreciate them :-)
20:17:56  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #399-push: SUCCESS in 47 sec:
20:21:30  <Alberth> playing with nuts helps a lot :)
20:22:11  <planetmaker> :-)
20:22:12  <Alberth> I think I have normal density even
20:22:34  <Alberth> it's the volume of transport that makes it difficult
20:22:50  <planetmaker> firs?
20:23:05  <Alberth> no, plain-ish industries
20:23:22  <Alberth> but cargo flow where you connect all consuming industries
20:23:28  <planetmaker> with cargodist?
20:23:41  <Alberth> so you get large amount of stuff to move
20:23:57  <Alberth> yes CD without symmetry
20:24:21  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have a solution for you
20:24:31  <Alberth> (not that I have time to serve cities much :) )
20:24:33  <andythenorth> all we need to do is patch a crapload of server
20:24:36  <andythenorth> server?
20:24:40  <andythenorth> stuff / server /s :P
20:25:02  <Alberth> is rm a good form of patching?  :p
20:25:20  <andythenorth> my solution is to daylength :)
20:25:26  <andythenorth> rm is good, but not for this case
20:26:28  <Alberth> oh, I got confused with your mentioning of "server"
20:26:45  <planetmaker> yeah, andy uses the replace command always reverse
20:27:11  <planetmaker> ;-)
20:27:21  <Alberth> this is the first time I see that :)
20:27:23  <DevZone> Project Iron Horse build #400-push: SUCCESS in 2 min 12 sec:
20:27:42  <andythenorth> anyway
20:27:44  <andythenorth> tech levels :P
20:27:48  <andythenorth> solve all problems
20:27:50  <andythenorth> maybe
20:27:55  <andythenorth> except for the new ones we introduce
20:28:11  <andythenorth> I just don't know where / how to start with it
20:28:24  <planetmaker> yes-ish. could. But it needs something which defines progression of tech levels. How to make tech advance?
20:28:26  <andythenorth> the convention seems to be 'write a spec' first
20:28:37  <andythenorth> but I can only discover a spec by writing code :P
20:29:07  <andythenorth> ok, so without a GS, tech just advances over time, ottd does it.  We normalise against the default temperate game.
20:29:11  <planetmaker> if tech levels is just to rename time by tech level, then it's wrong ;-)
20:29:34  <andythenorth> well the first case is to not break existing gameplay, yes?
20:29:42  <andythenorth> especially in vanilla game with no newgrfs?
20:33:27  <planetmaker> well, would be sad if it broke
20:36:07  <andythenorth> indeed :)
20:37:54  <andythenorth> tech level is just a nice abstraction to decouple gameplay progression from time (date) progression
20:38:29  <andythenorth> dunno why we didn't think of it before, instead of arsing around with daylength and such :)
20:38:42  <andythenorth> I guess GS is still quite new
20:43:16  <planetmaker> GS is quite new. People only start to really adopt it as of this year - is my impression
20:44:05  <andythenorth> anyway, tech level provides at least part of a clean interface between newgrf and GS that is 100% lacking right now
20:46:50  <andythenorth> hmm
20:46:53  * andythenorth ponders
21:07:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: there difference between tech level and daylength is exactly the R word
21:07:30  <andythenorth> oh
21:07:33  <frosch123> R people want stuff to be introduced in a specific year and change colour in an other specific year
21:07:40  <andythenorth> you mean the foamers need specific day / date? :(
21:07:53  <andythenorth> they know they can get MS Train Sim or whatever?
21:08:09  <frosch123> tech level mean throwing out all R crap, and thus it might actually work :p
21:08:39  <andythenorth> yair
21:08:45  <andythenorth> feels, um....gamelike?
21:09:18  <andythenorth> anyway, realism-lovers can have a link to this site for their needs :)
21:09:18  <planetmaker> it would be the logical extension of the thoughts behind NUTS
21:09:19  <Webster> Title: Hornby Model Railways - Welcome to Hornby (at
21:09:21  <frosch123> maybe there are people playing civ, who research the right tech at the R time :p
21:10:13  <andythenorth> fwiw, the set I am doing with Dan definitely has some grounding in realism (compared to NUTS), but we're way off actual reality
21:12:36  <planetmaker> it's always a question of what level of realism you need or want
21:13:01  <andythenorth> in my case, the realism is realism like FISH
21:13:09  <andythenorth> *might* be real
21:13:13  <andythenorth> doesn't claim to be accurate
21:13:28  <andythenorth> plausible, but not a historical recreation
21:13:32  <planetmaker> do vehicles need to look realistic or even be modeled after those? Do dates need to match? Other stats? Or can you actually ship the new cargo "bird goo" in shiny hover-saucers on air-cushion rails?
21:13:37  <andythenorth> I think 'plausible' is not on the NUTS list :)
21:14:27  <planetmaker> NUTS is actually the default set which should ship with toyland climate ;-)
21:16:15  <Taede> including purr
21:17:11  <frosch123> planetmaker: i am not sure about the age rating of nuts :p
21:17:44  <frosch123> it's probably safe for children who cannot read yet
21:17:57  <frosch123> so < 6 or > 14 ? :p
21:19:06  <planetmaker> hm... what did I miss? :D
21:19:35  <frosch123> it uses strong words, doesn't it?
21:19:57  <planetmaker> the creator sure does ;-)
21:20:35  <andythenorth> anyway
21:20:46  <andythenorth> tech level feels like a sane addition
21:21:02  <andythenorth> I still think there's something else, less sane, like 'capability' or 'resources' or something
21:21:33  <andythenorth> tech level affects availability of vehicles, industries, objects etc, and can't regress
21:21:55  <andythenorth> something like capability or resources affects construction actions
21:22:00  <andythenorth> but might be rubbish idea
21:23:49  <andythenorth> 'yes, you have enough tech to invent steel works, but you can't build one'
21:24:23  <andythenorth> 'yes, you have blueprints for this train, but not enough resources to build 5 of them'
21:26:22  <andythenorth> maybe less detail
21:26:23  <planetmaker> hm
21:26:33  <planetmaker> ressources is money
21:26:37  <andythenorth> yar
21:26:38  <planetmaker> and LA rating
21:27:17  <andythenorth> and ultimately ottd is more towards sandbox than resource management
21:27:21  <andythenorth> imho
21:27:32  <andythenorth> really arbitrary restrictions get boring fast
21:28:32  <planetmaker> yes
21:28:43  <planetmaker> it needs a concept which gives sense to the restrictions
21:30:26  <andythenorth> railroad tycoon had scenario challenges featuring limited track or limited engines
21:30:40  <andythenorth> but not convinced for ottd
21:30:52  <andythenorth> the regions idea looks most promising
21:33:08  <andythenorth> limiting track and such is quite fine grained imho, I don't think a GS can do it well
21:33:27  <planetmaker> well. They could do for a specific scenario.
21:33:29  <andythenorth> limiting availablity of whole classes of technology is quite rough-grained, and should suit a GS
21:33:34  <Taede> limit stations within region/local authority?
21:33:50  <andythenorth> partially implemented already
21:33:55  <planetmaker> But that means s/o needs to choose newgrfs, know them well, design a map and write a GS tailored to it
21:34:12  <planetmaker> that is a big challenge. And then maybe even tailor one or more AI to compete
21:34:15  <andythenorth> planetmaker: +1
21:34:38  <andythenorth> railroad tycoon was fully integrated - game designers = content designers = scenario designers
21:34:44  <andythenorth> we are different
21:42:10  <Alberth> good night
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21:49:54  <planetmaker> yes, this here is a different. We usually need to develop stuff more modular. More versatile
21:50:14  <planetmaker> As we don't have the manpower to pull-off one such big thing within reasonable time
21:50:24  <planetmaker> thus we need to go small steps. Which make sense on their own
21:50:37  <planetmaker> we might reach the goal. But with intermediate steps making sense on their own
21:50:43  <planetmaker> and the road thus might be longer
21:54:43  <andythenorth> I think tech level needs some spec
21:54:51  <andythenorth> if it takes too much spec, it's a bad idea :P
21:55:04  <andythenorth> but it needs to be clear what it does + doesn't offer
21:56:06  <planetmaker> yeah
21:57:23  <andythenorth> I am thinking of it as a static property
21:57:40  <andythenorth> which primarily substitutes for introduction dates on vehicles etc
21:58:16  <andythenorth> not sure how that works for, e.g. industry, where availability is a cb, not a prop
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22:02:00  <frosch123> i thought it would only affect vehicles
22:02:43  <andythenorth> well it could
22:03:10  <andythenorth> cb 22 makes me dubious about using it for industry
22:03:20  <andythenorth> any static property stuff seems clean
22:03:33  <andythenorth> anything where newgrf has a cb, and can make decisions seems like a minefield
22:03:42  <frosch123> we can also add a new variable "tech level", which defaults to have the same value as "date"
22:03:52  <frosch123> then industries can check that var instead
22:03:57  <frosch123> it requires grf support then
22:04:04  <andythenorth> yes :(
22:04:12  <andythenorth> well...we are where we are :)
22:04:16  <frosch123> for vehicles we could cheat, but not for industries
22:04:28  <andythenorth> I should do something evil with cb 22 in FIRS
22:04:29  <andythenorth> dunno what
22:04:44  <andythenorth> but it seems to be a case of a callback-too-fat :)
22:04:47  <andythenorth> fat?
22:04:48  <andythenorth> far :P
22:05:22  <andythenorth> maybe I count how many coal mines you have
22:05:40  <andythenorth> or whether you have a statue in town # 1
22:05:44  <andythenorth> or some other silly thing
22:06:35  <planetmaker> that new property and / or variable could default to the introduction date, if not set by the NewGRF
22:06:50  <andythenorth> hmm
22:06:55  <planetmaker> then it needs not necessarily newgrf support. But could get
22:06:56  <andythenorth> so if tech level was just a date....
22:07:09  <planetmaker> it would solve the backward compatibility problem that way
22:07:10  <andythenorth> "It's 1975, but we're stuck with 1955 tech..."
22:07:16  <frosch123> originally i thought of just reporting a different date to vehicles
22:07:23  <andythenorth> "it's 199, but we get tomorrow's tech today"
22:07:27  <frosch123> so they would introduce and recolour differently
22:07:28  <planetmaker> ah, that way around
22:07:39  <frosch123> vehicles have no storage, so they rely on what ottd tells them
22:07:51  <planetmaker> yeah... hm... :-) good!
22:07:56  <frosch123> but that does not work for industries
22:08:10  <frosch123> for them we would need explicit support
22:08:14  <andythenorth> so we could leave industries out of scope, try a patch, play test it to see if the whole thing is lame?
22:08:23  <andythenorth> then worry about the full spec?
22:08:28  <frosch123> but i am not sure how widespread techlevels are for industries
22:08:40  <andythenorth> I'm not convinced by them for industry
22:08:43  <planetmaker> what you mean 'wide spread'?
22:08:44  <frosch123> sure, there are oilrigs and stuff, but does that really matter?
22:08:58  <planetmaker> ah, progression
22:09:02  <frosch123> is it relevant to alter the techlevel of industries?
22:09:06  <planetmaker> hm.... not much. FIRS is the extreme we have
22:09:15  <andythenorth> even FIRS has problems with progression
22:09:30  <andythenorth> lack of availability of some types means broken chains
22:09:36  <andythenorth> it's not an easy problem
22:09:38  <planetmaker> yes. Industry progression is difficult to implement w/o breaking game play. Or certain ways of game play
22:10:03  <planetmaker> Might be solved by industries spawing objects...
22:10:21  <planetmaker> and by industry production / cargo callbacks
22:10:43  <planetmaker> which then needs... handling by industry tech tree :D
22:10:46  <planetmaker> nightmare :-)
22:11:08  <andythenorth> if there was a var for tech level, leave it to the industry newgrf if it wants to implement or not
22:11:14  <andythenorth> GS can still modify tech level
22:11:40  <andythenorth> GS - newgrf industry communication is so hard
22:11:45  <andythenorth> vehicles is comparatively simpler
22:12:00  <andythenorth> industries both know too much, but also too little :P
22:13:10  <andythenorth> hmm
22:13:22  * andythenorth wonders about simply lying to industries about date
22:13:26  <andythenorth> what would happen
22:14:07  <planetmaker> not much... unless they know too much. Then they'll be confused :-)
22:14:26  <planetmaker> and might close too early or too late. or produce too little or too much
22:14:42  <planetmaker> or both. or not spawn. or spawn too many
22:15:19  <andythenorth> yar :)
22:15:26  <andythenorth> so leave them out of scope for now
22:15:42  * andythenorth wants to think about this more, but is falling asleep
22:15:50  <andythenorth> maybe tomorrow ;)
22:15:52  <frosch123> planetmaker: worse
22:15:56  <frosch123> ecs will completely break
22:15:58  <planetmaker> industries are more or less static anyway
22:16:02  <planetmaker> good night, andythenorth
22:16:06  <andythenorth> good night
22:16:13  <planetmaker> frosch123, why? stockpile?
22:16:13  <andythenorth> industries *should* be static
22:16:22  <andythenorth> closure is a borked idea
22:16:27  <planetmaker> I agree
22:16:27  <frosch123> it relies on ticks and dates and production cycles being tied to each other
22:16:29  <andythenorth> and availability restrictions are meh
22:16:34  <andythenorth> anyway, good night
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22:18:58  <planetmaker> ugh... mixing all that... yeah, breaks hard with any change to dates
22:20:58  <frosch123> problem is also stuff like seasons
22:21:12  <frosch123> luckily i do not know about vehicels with season effects
22:23:35  <planetmaker> :-)
22:23:42  <planetmaker> taxi: cabrio yes/no
22:23:48  <planetmaker> capacity: 2 passengers
22:23:51  <Taede> dont give V ideas
22:24:00  <planetmaker> :D
22:24:32  <Taede> or he'll have some train have sunglasses in summer and wear a scarf in winter
22:25:26  <planetmaker> lol. Actually that'd be nice to look at
22:25:32  <planetmaker> no, who is giving ideas?!
22:25:39  <planetmaker> *now
22:26:03  <planetmaker> and it would make sense for a set like Thomas the tank engine
22:26:23  <planetmaker> though I'd rather tie it to a difference in vehicle height to snow height
22:26:58  <Taede> hehe
22:27:31  <frosch123> you can also wear sunglasses above snowline
22:27:39  <planetmaker> :-)
22:29:38  <planetmaker> before I get too many strange ideas I rather also go to bed :D
22:29:49  <planetmaker> good night folks :-) - and likely till monday
22:32:05  <frosch123> night
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22:32:34  <Taede> sleep well
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