Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 19th October 2014:
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08:31:02  <Alberth> planetifex: I recently ran into " Brianum: SH '50' & SH '60' " (  42533032, could something like that be useful for opengfx+ ?
08:31:52  <planetifex> sounds like an engine?
08:31:58  <planetifex> let me check
08:32:35  <planetifex> generally, I think OpenGFX+ can use some additions, especially for the earlier years. Maybe some selected in later years
08:33:32  <planetifex> I guess they're rather later than 30 and 40, though
08:33:39  <Alberth> yeah, playing a sub-arctic game, it's 1985, last engine was in 1977 (Turner Turbo), and I won't get more until monorail in 2001
08:34:00  <planetifex> then it makes sense, I guess
08:34:13  <Alberth> sub-arctic has no electric tracks :p
08:34:25  <planetifex> heck ,they're drawn by xotic... he made a lot for ogfx+trains
08:34:39  <planetifex> electric is available when there's electric trains. I would not mind adding that
08:35:08  <planetifex> is it actually a new newgrf?
08:35:42  <planetifex> hm, no
08:36:39  <Alberth>   he made several things that look close to the original
08:36:44  <planetifex> oh, I looked at wrong newgrf :D
08:37:28  <planetifex> cc-by-sa. does that work with gpl?
08:37:38  <Alberth> don't know what it means
08:37:45  <planetifex> share alike
08:38:58  <Alberth> in general, if you look at the original set, there is no overlap between track types at all, it seems
08:39:17  <Alberth> (took me only 20 years to discover that :) )
08:39:56  <planetifex> yes, indeed
08:40:48  <Alberth> which of course makes perfect sense if you aim to push people to different track types
08:41:27  <planetifex> yes. But I don't think we should require that. 'Better' vehicles alone should suffice. And generally the audience consideres upgrading networks to another rail type tedious (which I understand well. It is)
08:42:32  <Alberth> it doesn't really buy you anything, game wise
08:42:57  <Alberth> unless you want to have different track types next to each other
08:43:05  <planetifex> yes, that's the point. It kinda gives incentive to build new / more tracks. Or go into a order re-creation orgy
08:43:21  <planetifex> But the first is given by the map sizes today. And the latter really not fun when there's nothing new
08:44:05  <Alberth> maybe 'traditional' tracks should move to stronger, while the mono-thingies should move to fast
08:44:41  <Alberth> that would give you a reason to keep both track types
08:44:54  <andythenorth> Iron Horse I’m going to limit traditional rails to 200mph or so in any roster
08:44:56  <planetifex> I'm not sure we need monorail at all so much. It could become a metro thing with high (passenger) capacity, while rail is heavy cargoe and maglev gets fast passenger
08:45:04  <andythenorth> faster than that needs maglev-zeps
08:45:35  <planetifex> japan is going for maglev now IRL too. By 2024 or so they'll have a 500km/h maglev through the country.
08:46:06  <Alberth> I don't make much distiction between mono & maglev
08:46:22  <Alberth> but use as a metro could be useful
08:46:36  <andythenorth> metro is just metro :)
08:46:41  <andythenorth> could be mono or not
08:46:50  <andythenorth> high capacity, incompatible with other types
08:46:54  <planetifex> well, yes. But they're two track types, so... it's the same game there between mono and maglev as between rail and mono
08:47:52  <Alberth> yeah, the mono and maglev tracks always felt a bit as pushed into the game to have anything to do, to me
08:48:05  <planetifex> exactly
08:48:21  <planetifex> mostly, I think to ensure a longer game play with limited map
08:48:40  <andythenorth> probably CS just thought they were cool
08:48:46  <andythenorth> often the cause of a feature
08:49:10  <Alberth> not sure, drawing all those graphics is a lot of work at $$ / hour
08:49:13  <planetifex> which is fair enough. to some extent
08:49:13  <andythenorth> anyway, beebul
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08:49:30  <planetifex> there's not terribly many monorail / maglev in ttd, Alberth
08:50:14  <Alberth> one direction towards a solution could be to move maglev intro to an earlier year
08:50:41  <Alberth> sort of make it feasible to just skip mono entirely
08:51:05  <Alberth> with breakdown disabled, many already do that, I think
08:51:17  <planetifex> yes, I would be agree-able to such solution
08:51:24  <planetifex> and move monorail also to earlier
08:52:40  <Alberth> I could use it now already in my game :p
08:52:50  <planetifex> hehe
08:55:01  <Alberth>   this kind of mixed transport doesn't really work
08:55:44  <planetifex> passenger + rail at different speeds you mean?
08:55:52  <Alberth> yes
08:55:54  <planetifex> err s/rail/cargo/
08:56:11  <Alberth> heavy paper trains are slow compared to the pax :)
08:56:48  <planetifex> yea. You can set the pax trains' orders to be slow, too. But that's somewhat unsatisfactorily. Or timetable everything to death. Or build two track systems
08:57:13  <Alberth> my pax transport needs to be increased, but this line won't really do, so I wonder how to proceed
08:57:41  <planetifex> double-track the line :)
08:58:06  <Alberth> probably the only way out
08:58:16  <planetifex> it seems really busy already and without further tracks I see no real solution
08:58:39  <planetifex> probably one could optimize it a bit here and there for maybe 10% increase in throughput. But that's no long term solution for growing demand
08:58:56  <Alberth> 10% won't cut it :)
08:59:24  <Alberth> I have A <- > B, and  B <-> C, so cargodist makes a lot of A <-> C pax
09:00:11  <planetifex> oh yeah :)
09:00:19  <planetifex> build B<->C, too :)
09:00:33  <planetifex> unless it's anyway geometrically A-B-C
09:00:47  <planetifex> in one line
09:01:32  <Alberth> Transport, 1986-09-07.sav   if you want to take a look
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09:02:51  <Alberth> I use paused mode to build tracks which works nicely
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09:03:19  <Alberth> biggest disadvantage is that you don't see many trains moving :)
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09:04:52  <planetifex> oh, you really fenced-in your Plennbury town :D
09:05:47  <planetifex> I think the biggest bottleneck is the station and entry/exit at that town
09:05:54  <Alberth> I started expanding already, that lake was much larger :p
09:06:27  <planetifex> and the metro train should get its separate station without mixing the tracks, I think. Easier design then. Or simply replace by truck/tram
09:06:37  <planetifex> *metro stations
09:07:12  <Alberth> I gave up on the metro a long time ago :)
09:07:31  <planetifex> And I probably would then move Plennbury Centre a bit out of town, rotate the main tracks 90° and thus allow an easy non-bending approach
09:07:53  <planetifex> use a shitload of busses/trams to transfer people from town to that new station
09:08:08  <planetifex> or build it big enough so you don't need it :D
09:08:36  <Alberth> the picture is not entirely fair, I just unleashed a bunch of new trains, that's why it's so busy there
09:08:49  <Alberth> in general the station is quite empty
09:08:57  <planetifex> ok :)
09:11:09  <planetifex> still. I'd consider to build a roro pax station North of Flentown. And connect the Western exit to the Northbound track. And I mis-judged
09:11:11  <Alberth> it's all a bit stuck I agree
09:11:20  <planetifex> station B is 'Brehill City'
09:11:26  <planetifex> the middle one
09:11:30  <Alberth> yes
09:11:33  <planetifex> that's difficult one to change :)
09:11:37  <planetifex> though roro could work
09:11:49  <planetifex> I'd try a roro there
09:11:59  <Alberth> plenty of spare sea there :p
09:12:13  <planetifex> you don't need that much spare sea really
09:13:33  <Alberth> ah, flentown, yeah, another puzzle piece I didn't know what to do :)
09:14:14  <Alberth> I extended Flonnington  to 7 length stations everywhere recently
09:14:52  <Alberth> Brehill City and Plennbury aren't that easy to change
09:15:47  <planetifex> yeah. Just crashed two trains :D
09:16:05  <Alberth> :D
09:16:56  <Alberth> what if you make a new connection from Plennbury, west of the paper mill?
09:17:20  <planetifex> hm, you have left-hand train traffic
09:17:29  <Alberth> paper-dropoff is ridiculously long
09:17:39  <Alberth> I also have right-hand traffic :p
09:19:11  <Alberth> at least the connection from the paper cargo track to Flonnington does some side swapping
09:20:55  <Alberth> or rather the connection at the pax tracks does
09:21:43  <Alberth> roro at Brehill City sound interesting to try
09:23:00  <planetifex> with much nicer entry/exit. It's just temp stuff to keep traffic going
09:23:09  <Alberth> btw how do you keep your save games? I always have a hard time finding a specific one back
09:23:21  <planetifex> I keep a giant pile of them :)
09:24:05  <planetifex> I try to give them some non-default names, if I really need to remember them. Otherwise by date of the file :)
09:24:38  <Alberth> looks nice, and indeed almost needing as much space as I already have
09:24:57  <Alberth> I wondered whether to make an album-like web-page of it
09:25:00  <planetifex> I can't say I've an award-winning way to keep saves, on the contrary
09:25:15  <planetifex> hm, that could make sense for savegames :)
09:25:42  <planetifex> well, that's what coop's public server game overview basically does for those games. It's handy
09:25:42  <Alberth> ie some screen shots, bunch of facts, some history, and save games at some dates
09:26:16  <Alberth> somewhat lke people do at the screenshots threads
09:26:32  <Alberth> except their purpose is just nice piccies :)
09:26:43  <planetifex> <-- coop does it like that. Indeed more handy than a bunch of savegames
09:28:50  <Alberth> just the final version there
09:29:04  <Alberth> I usually have a lot of history as well
09:29:16  <Alberth> not sure how useful it is
09:29:44  <Alberth> but you can go back, and see what you did when
09:30:55  <Alberth>   ie my current collection of the current game :)
09:31:58  <planetifex> yeah... That actually would make much sense to group saves from one run to a (virtual?) folder
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09:34:40  <Alberth> quak
09:34:54  <planetifex> quak
09:35:39  <frosch123> ave
09:37:24  <frosch123> i came across pulling ogfx+rv yesterday
09:37:45  <planetifex> not much new there, I guess
09:37:53  <frosch123> many of those ogfx+ projects are like sv :) sleeping, one year worth of translations, no new release
09:38:07  <planetifex> yeah, that should be changed, I guess
09:39:37  <frosch123> are you at home already, or still in Essen?
09:43:33  <planetifex> I'm back home. Just went for a day trip there
09:44:13  <planetifex> returned with Hoyuk and Shinobi in my luggage :D
09:46:12  <Alberth> books?
09:46:30  <frosch123> books from a game fair? :p
09:46:36  <Alberth> :O
09:46:58  <Alberth> of course!
09:49:03  <planetifex> no, those are board games :)
09:49:32  <planetifex> though, granted, it has a big comic section, too. But I didn't have quite time to look around much in those exhibition halls
09:51:17  <Alberth> next year you need at least one day more :p
09:52:48  <planetifex> easy to spend there, yes. It's not like I could test all games which looked interesting in 8 hours :)
09:54:13  <Alberth> an extra week sounds more useful :p
09:54:52  <planetifex> the fair only lasts 4 days :D
09:55:20  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles build #26-push: SUCCESS in 2 min 54 sec:
09:55:24  <Alberth> :D
09:55:50  <frosch123> thursday was a weird day, everyone who visited my office said "ah, at least you are at work today"
09:56:03  <Alberth> :)
09:56:06  <planetifex> :D they all went to Essen?
09:56:42  <frosch123> well "all" is relative. but quite a percentage of the "core developer" group
10:03:38  <planetifex> :)
10:04:07  <frosch123> 2 of 200 is not much, but 2 of 10 is
10:04:08  <planetifex> was the first time I actually went to that fair. But it was really quite nice. If you like board games, a day there is a day well spent, I think
10:11:21  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles build #27-push: SUCCESS in 2 min 43 sec:
10:14:01  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles build #28-releases: SUCCESS in 2 min 39 sec:
10:19:19  <planetifex> hm, opengfx+road vehicles is neither listed in my bananas manager interface nor openttdcoop's :D
10:19:46  <frosch123> so, terkhen's ?
10:19:52  <planetifex> probably :)
10:21:26  <planetifex> Terkhen, could you download and upload that release to bananas. Preferably via musa so that you could add openttdcoop as author with upload rights, too?
10:21:35  <planetifex> Would be much appreciated :)
10:22:28  <frosch123> every repo should have a file with the musa meta data :)
10:23:18  <planetifex> yup :)
10:23:33  <frosch123> <- can i sell something? :p
10:25:38  <planetifex> <-- I put that in .devzone/build/musa.ini a bit more hidden in one, two or three projects. But... yeah :)
10:27:02  <planetifex> maybe bananas.ini is the nicer name
10:27:09  <frosch123> doesn't that upload as "custom" license?
10:28:20  <planetifex> which would be true for pota-ghat
10:28:28  <frosch123> planetifex: in the case of sv it is passed through some preprocessors to insert stuff, so it is part of the build process, less of the devzone
10:29:17  <frosch123> ah, right pota has external sources
10:29:38  <planetifex> well, not external. But graphics licenses. cc-by-sa graphics, gpl code
10:36:41  <planetifex> I guess you can sell that to me. I was and am a bit hesitant to upload the self-built binaries to bananas as it requires me to check whether devzone built the same md5sum ;)
10:37:34  <frosch123> well, no issue for gs :p
10:37:42  <planetifex> yeah :)
10:38:04  <frosch123> but, i think the meta-data is more important than the automatic upload
10:38:16  <planetifex> yes, I fully agree
10:38:20  <frosch123> e.g. bundle could have both the tar and the preprocessed meta data
10:38:27  <frosch123> then you can fetch both from bundles and upload
10:38:38  <planetifex> and it's of more general interest than inter-operation with devzone CF. So root dir is warranted
10:39:35  <planetifex> I probably would rather curl bundles for md5sum, build locally and compare. But yeah :)
10:39:47  <planetifex> or curl and upload CF builds, also possible, yes
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10:55:43  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX+ Airports build #35-push: SUCCESS in 44 sec:
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12:54:20  <Terkhen> planetifex: sure, I'll look into it this evening :)
12:54:46  <Terkhen> currently I have a lot of furniture to assemble
12:56:47  <planetifex> :)
14:26:00  <DevZone> Project xussrset - Trains from Russia build #481-push: SUCCESS in 3 min 51 sec:
14:32:42  <DevZone> Project World Airliner Set build #461-push: SUCCESS in 3 min 22 sec:
14:38:22  <Rubidium> planetifex: the maglev in Japan... if they're lucky they get Tokyo - Nagoya by 2027 and Tokyo - Nagoya - Osaka by 2045, and that is hardly through the whole country ;)
14:44:02  <planetifex> ok, then I mis-remembered dates. But sounds like what I read, too
14:44:15  <planetifex> however it's a start :)
14:46:26  <Rubidium> planetifex: well... its "first commercial run"-date has been slipping for ages
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14:50:46  <planetifex> :)
14:53:24  <Rubidium> though as far as I can tell they finally got financing and have actually started something
14:54:17  <Rubidium> and the terminus will be Shinagawa instead of one of the two main hub stations (Shinjuku or Tokyo)
14:54:38  <Rubidium> from Shinagawa to Nagoya takes 94 minutes now and will likely take around 40 in the future
14:58:06  <Rubidium> +18 to Shinjuku (metro, every 2 minutes) or +17 (with a change) and +13 (metro, every 2 minutes) or +7/8 (with current Shinkansen you would just remain seated for the remaining few minutes)
15:12:29  <planetifex> :) still a nice time gain
15:17:42  <DevZone> Project make-nml build #61-push: SUCCESS in 23 sec:
15:24:00  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX+ Airports build #36-push: SUCCESS in 37 sec:
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15:48:03  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX+ Airports build #37-push: SUCCESS in 39 sec:
15:49:10  <DevZone> Project make-nml build #62-push: SUCCESS in 21 sec:
15:57:53  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX+ Airports build #38-push: SUCCESS in 40 sec:
15:58:33  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX+ Airports build #39-releases: SUCCESS in 40 sec:
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16:48:08  <DevZone> Project Metro Track Set build #17-push: SUCCESS in 33 sec:
16:48:46  <DevZone> Project ecs build #68-push: SUCCESS in 28 sec:
16:51:14  <DevZone> Project World Airliner Set build #462-push: SUCCESS in 3 min 9 sec:
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17:53:41  <Terkhen> planetifex: is there any example on how to generate the configuration files that musa seems to require?
17:54:10  <Terkhen> ah, it includes an example, sorry
17:55:05  <planetifex> Terkhen, yes, you could also somewhat copy from opengfx+airports
17:55:43  <planetifex>
17:56:51  <Terkhen> thanks! why is it missing text at version = ?
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17:57:47  <planetifex> 0.4.1
17:58:14  <Terkhen> planetifex: I meant why the file you linked has no text for version= :)
17:58:33  <oberhuemer> Do I need to do anything special to initialize the repository for a new DevZone project?
17:58:52  <oberhuemer> Tried to push to ssh:// and got "remote: Illegal repository "/home/hg/latin-townnames" "
17:59:11  <planetifex> you might want to add the proper description to the musa file, too: "OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles enhances default road vehicles while keeping a design that matches the OpenGFX style. Coded by Terkhen and planetmaker. Graphics by DanMacK, Zephyris and molace"
17:59:18  <oberhuemer>  I suppose the server can't push because there's no repository yet, but there can't be a repository until I push/clone/initialize it (same error for all of these)...
17:59:28  <Terkhen> yep, did that too
17:59:33  <planetifex> ah, Terkhen because it's written by Makefile :D
17:59:38  <Alberth> oberhuemer: did you start by pulling?
17:59:42  <Terkhen> oh, awesome :)
17:59:51  <oberhuemer> Alberth: no
17:59:54  <planetifex> oberhuemer, no, the script seems to have failed creating it
17:59:57  <Terkhen> thanks, I'm going to finish it and test it
18:00:39  <oberhuemer> planetifex: OK
18:01:01  <oberhuemer> I'll try again in a few days
18:01:07  <planetifex> Terkhen, I somewhat copied frosch's way for writing a new bananas.ini into the bundle dir during building. But of course that's not in the repo :)
18:03:06  <planetifex> oberhuemer, there, now there should be a repo
18:03:40  <Terkhen> the OpenGFX+ Airports script is missing the uniqueid field too, is it optional?
18:03:48  <oberhuemer> Works now
18:03:49  <DevZone> Project xussrset - Trains from Russia build #482-push: SUCCESS in 3 min 51 sec:
18:03:51  <planetifex> Terkhen, that's only for non-newgrfs
18:04:01  <planetifex> see the description in the musa example :)
18:04:09  <Terkhen> oh, I misunderstood the description then :)
18:04:13  <oberhuemer> Thanks
18:04:59  <planetifex> I created the project late at night but didn't check anything at 2am
18:05:15  <planetifex> and forgot after getting up :D
18:06:34  <oberhuemer> Oh
18:07:06  <oberhuemer> I could have waited a few hours, you know... :P
18:08:22  <oberhuemer> bye
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18:15:23  <Terkhen> when uploading, do I have to specify each file individually? the script does not seem to like tar files
18:23:23  <planetifex> yes, you do
18:23:36  <planetifex> unless you put them into a separate dir. Then you can use -r and dirname
18:24:21  <planetifex> thus if you grabbed the zip and unpacked and untared it, just specify the dir it is untarred into
18:40:43  <DevZone> Project road-hog build #438-nightlies: SUCCESS in 33 sec:
18:40:56  <Terkhen> oh, thanks, I did not see a -r option in --help
18:41:13  <Terkhen> the following files remained unpackaged:
18:41:13  <Terkhen>  - ogfx-rv-0.4.1\license.txt
18:41:13  <Terkhen>  unpackagable files in directory
18:41:44  <frosch123> add "-x license.txt"
18:42:32  <frosch123> the license is added based on bananas.ini, if there is another file with that name, it is a conflict
18:42:59  <Terkhen> oh, okay :)
18:43:00  <frosch123> resp. uploading a custom license.txt always results in a "custom" license
18:43:07  <frosch123> there is no text matching or something :)
18:44:35  <Terkhen> okay, sorry about bothering you all with questions :P
18:44:38  <Terkhen> I finally succeeded
18:44:51  <Terkhen> planetifex: I added openttdcoop as author
18:46:16  <frosch123> planetifex: ogfx+airports website link misses a "projects/"
18:47:01  <frosch123> nah, even more, the project name is actually "airportsplus"
19:31:31  <DevZone> Project xussrset - Trains from Russia build #483-push: SUCCESS in 3 min 36 sec:
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19:38:36  <planetifex> hm, so I messed up the upload, frosch123 ?
19:45:43  <frosch123> well, the bananas.ini contains an incorrect url
19:46:04  <frosch123> i think you can edit it manually via the web interface, no need to upload again
19:48:24  <planetifex> you're right. Fixed. Thanks a lot
19:50:11  <DevZone> Project OpenGFX+ Airports build #40-push: SUCCESS in 46 sec:
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20:41:08  <DevZone> Project road-hog build #439-push: SUCCESS in 29 sec:
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21:22:26  <DevZone> Project World Airliner Set build #463-push: SUCCESS in 3 min 18 sec:
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21:54:55  <DevZone> Project World Airliner Set build #464-push: SUCCESS in 3 min 3 sec:
22:13:36  <DevZone> Project World Airliner Set build #465-push: FAILURE in 22 sec:
22:15:04  <DevZone> Project World Airliner Set build #466-push: STILL FAILING in 21 sec:
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22:23:02  <DevZone> Project World Airliner Set build #470-push: STILL FAILING in 1 min 32 sec:
22:31:52  <DevZone> Yippee, build fixed!
22:31:53  <DevZone> Project World Airliner Set build #471-push: FIXED in 3 min 4 sec:
22:51:53  <DevZone> Project World Airliner Set build #472-push: SUCCESS in 3 min 5 sec:
22:56:53  *** erlehmann has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
23:00:21  <DevZone> Project World Airliner Set build #473-push: SUCCESS in 3 min 7 sec:

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