Log for on 14th June 2012:
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12:58:46  <V453000> sure, people vote for no reasons, all my plans are really bad and boring, without any idea or something innovativ. And if one is at least not absolutely terrible, then it is taken from someone else. All I will say is - maybe look at yourselves and what were the other plans. Provide something better, then complain. Kiss my ass.
13:13:58  <Mazur> Whut?  People are complaining your plans get voted for a lot?  How can you help it your plans are frequently the most interesting and feasible for the map?  Besides, I think once or twice my plans, when i had them, won over yours, even the time I secretly wanmted yours to win because I found it more interesting and you never submit a plan twice.
13:17:39  <V453000> lords XeryusTC, Chris_Booth and Vinnie seemed to have some problem
13:18:04  <V453000> "people" are probably happy as they vote it themselves
13:19:22  <Mazur> Indeed.
13:20:08  <Mazur> Well, you can tell those lords from me that they are being silly and to stop speaking like an ass.
13:20:20  * Mazur is reading P.G. Wodehouse.
13:20:50  <V453000> thats what I basically did :p
13:26:43  <Mazur> And you can tell them from me, as well.
13:28:53  <Mazur> If they want, they can dig up those two plans I proposed that did not win, but was requested to reissue at some time and propose those next time under their own name.  If they want, they can name me as the originator.
13:29:54  <Mazur> Haven't had a good idea for some time, and am besically too lazy to dig them up again myself.
13:31:26  <V453000> I dont think the problem here that someone needs an idea for them, the problem is that I dare make a plan and people like it
13:32:13  <V453000> which is obviously terrible
13:33:18  <Mazur> You should be shot, burned, hanged, quartered and drawn.  And gassed and fed to yourself.
13:34:04  <V453000> yes.
13:46:42  <Mazur> Lets analyse the votes since I joined Coop: ususally, there are about 4 plans. Two of them are by newcomers in their third or fourth game, incomplete and almost certainly unfeasible at that.  One is from another more experienced hand, which is a rehash of and old plan with minor modifications, and nothing new or exciting.  And one is fro you, which is often the most challenging, but feasible, with usually a new twist to some aspe
13:46:42  <Mazur> ct of the whole project.
13:48:04  <V453000> -> hang him
13:50:33  <V453000> what you say is right, but times have changed a bit, I dont play nearly as much as I used to, and I also kind of think most of the ideas possible in the game have been used. Still, I only try nothing else but to provide a different plan than the other plans in the games, just so people can choose better. And they choose as they do.
13:52:47  <Mazur> Over a bed of hot coal, on a gyrating spit, to roast slowly, basting him with his own juices and slicing off the meat into small pieces in a pitã bun, with no letttuce but lots of garlick sauce.
13:54:00  <V453000> lettuce :(
13:54:04  <Mazur> Oh, I think there will always be new ideas, inventions to improve and change the way things work.
13:54:31  <Mazur> none of it, unless your a rabbit, too.
13:55:41  <V453000> I think most of it just small changes
13:57:41  <Mazur> Yes, untill we get speed signs for track parts, or a pathfinder that looks ahead for 10 tiles and changes the train speed if there's a lower train ahead, or fundamental additions like that.
13:57:55  <Mazur> s/lower/slower/
14:00:32  <XeryusTC> i think that you are missing something here
14:00:49  <XeryusTC> it is not that we dont like your plans, not at all, they are most often the most inventive
14:01:17  <XeryusTC> my problem is with the people who vote for the same person over and over so the voting stage takes as little time as possible and they can just play
14:01:37  <XeryusTC> no matter what the consequences of the plan actually are
14:02:23  <XeryusTC> if V453000 were to make a plan that basically said ¨ships only, no bouys¨ they would still just vote for it because it is more likely to be picked because everyone just votes for V453000
14:02:28  <V453000> sure of course
14:02:50  <Mazur> That, my friend, is the basic flaw of democracy: voters are too stupid to vote intelligently and wisely.
14:03:12  <XeryusTC> Mazur: true
14:03:41  <V453000> anyway, what is the actual problem
14:03:47  <V453000> is it a problem that plans have my name on it?
14:03:53  <V453000> I dont care tbh
14:04:00  <XeryusTC> i have proposed to V453000 in private to return to dislike most voting
14:04:09  <V453000> which doesnt work at all
14:04:13  <XeryusTC> and have multiple rounds
14:04:30  <Mazur> X: I don't even understnad what yo mean by that?
14:04:32  <XeryusTC> i dont care whos name is on them, i care about people voting just to get the voting stage over with
14:04:47  <V453000> do something then instead of whining at things I do?
14:05:13  <Mazur> Oh, a least voted for gets discarded system?  Or voting against to eleminate them one by one?
14:05:24  <XeryusTC> Mazur: the latter
14:05:35  <XeryusTC> V453000: you are completely misunderstanding
14:05:40  <V453000> eliminating voting doesnt work. Blind voting without seeing what who votes for would eliminate the issue you are talking about. As I said.
14:05:44  <XeryusTC> it is not what you do, it is what other people do
14:05:45  <Mazur> That just prolongs the voting with the same result inthe end.
14:06:00  <V453000> why take me responsible for it?
14:06:14  <Mazur> More so, because people will want to get the voting over with quickly to build.
14:06:23  <XeryusTC> we have seen some choices with eliminations that wouldnt have been made with regular voting
14:06:35  <planetmaker> 16:04 XeryusTC: i have proposed to V453000 in private to return to dislike most voting  <-- that'd destructive and disheartening for all who are voted as "you're doing badly"
14:06:48  <Mazur> planetmaker, that too.
14:07:03  <Mazur> Good way to scare away any new influc of players.
14:07:03  <XeryusTC> V453000: get rid of your ego, it is NOT about you, it is about the people voting
14:07:04  <planetmaker> and I can never remember a time we had that, tbh. Not in the last four years
14:07:06  <V453000> aside from that pm, it has organization issues. When to close down a voting of that kind etc
14:07:16  <XeryusTC> dont make yourself more important if i tell you that you dont matter in this case
14:07:20  <V453000> XeryusTC: then dont even mention me and do something, I wont do it for you
14:07:56  <planetmaker> XeryusTC: your concern is easily remedied by anonymous plans
14:08:14  <V453000> that is basically what I suggested, too, pm
14:08:16  <planetmaker> but not by vote-out voting
14:08:19  <XeryusTC> yes, i know
14:08:25  <planetmaker> sorry, V453000, I did not fully read back :-)
14:08:25  <XeryusTC> and we´ve also talked about that
14:08:35  <V453000> not now and here pm :)
14:08:43  <XeryusTC> and i agree, it would totally solve the problem
14:09:05  <Mazur> Or taking the voting away from the general population, by letting only members without a plan issued vote behind closed doors.
14:09:18  <V453000> then realize and stop crying that I could make a plan with ships and it would still be liked
14:10:24  <XeryusTC> Mazur: that is just stupid
14:10:41  <Mazur> But it's a solution.
14:11:17  <planetmaker> well, try anonymous plans, if you think it's a problem ;-)
14:11:33  <Mazur> The anonymous is better than what I mentioned.
14:12:01  <planetmaker> but it means the end of voting has to be announced quite early one. As all plan makers must then be online ;-)
14:12:01  <V453000> I think anonymous doesnt exactly help either the snowball effect. The resuts of voting rather need to be invisible, so people vote for -something- but dont know how the results are
14:12:29  <planetmaker> that'd be another option to try. But more difficult to implement
14:12:54  <V453000> exactly :)
14:12:55  <XeryusTC> that would basically require a website or a script for Webster
14:13:04  <planetmaker> yup
14:13:15  <V453000> yes, I already told you to do it if you need such solution :)
14:13:28  <planetmaker> <-- could make a vote there
14:13:29  <Webster> Title: Doodle: easy scheduling (at
14:13:43  <XeryusTC> but we could try just not putting names on plans the next game
14:14:16  <V453000> that keeps the effect as it is?
14:14:17  <planetmaker> I fear though that the anonymity might be a pseudo anonymity. But one would have to try
14:14:29  <planetmaker> V453000: depends on the cause of the effect really
14:14:40  <planetmaker> maybe. maybe not
14:14:45  <XeryusTC> part of it is that people vote for the most voted plan after a while
14:14:50  <V453000> Our problem seems to be, that people vote for person who is in lead, to quicken the voting
14:15:07  <XeryusTC> but part of a problem also is that people vote for someone who is more likely to win if there are no votes yet
14:15:30  <V453000> ^ that is questionable
14:16:04  <planetmaker> I see truth in "vote for the one with most votes". I did that, too, a few times to get things started
14:16:35  <planetmaker> as it's better to build any plan than no plan
14:16:46  <V453000> pretty much
14:17:12  <Mazur> So sometimes, in the early stages, I vote for the other good plan that has no votes yet, still the best plan won.
14:17:36  <planetmaker> But tbh, on .pro we never had votes. There we just decided collectively w/o votes about the game-to-start
14:17:47  <planetmaker> not like we have many games here
14:18:30  <XeryusTC> .pro either has someone who makes a map with a certain plan in mind or we discuss what the plan would be with everyone and come to some kind of consensus
14:18:39  <planetmaker> yeah
14:18:58  <planetmaker> I was just checking whether it concerns this server or PS :-)
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21:42:32  <Chris_Booth> !password
21:42:32  <ProZone> Chris_Booth: hammed
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23:33:12  <Mazur> Lodidodido.

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